Luis Alvarado and Beatriz Lopez de Elisalde had daughters Maria Lopes de Elisalde and Josepha de Alvarado (and at least one other, Antonia Lopes de Alvarado).
Maria Lopes de Elisalde married Thomas Macias on 13 Sep 1659, in Aguascalientes.
Josepha de Alvarado married Nicolas Macias on 21 Feb 1662, in Aguascalientes.
Does anyone have information on Thomas Macias and Nicolas Macias?
George Fulton
Luis Alvarado and Beatriz Lopes de Elisalde
I would like to thank everyone that responded to my query; this has all been quite helpful.
Rose Hardy's thought that Thomas Macias and Nicolas Macias were brothers had occurred to me also. I've seen several cases of brothers marrying sisters. However, like Rose, I've not seen anything to substantiate it in this case.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Josepha de Alvarado married Nicolas Macias
George a few suggestions:
Look at the marriage record of the children of Nicolas to try to narrow down his death date. His burial record might mention who his parents are, where he was born, if he “Testo” (left a will). Keep in mind that he might not have been native to Aguascalientes.
Look for the christening record of the grandchildren of Nicolas. In those records the paternal and maternal grandparents are often mentioned and if they are deceased or not. By looking at the christening records you can find out when the grandparents died pretty easily, e.g. one child is christened and grandfather and or grandmother is or are alive, next christening grandfather and or grandmother is or are dead. Now you know to look for the death(s) between those two christening dates.
You also should look at "Información Matrimonial", if you have not done so already, and not just Nicolas's marriage record to Josepha. You need to look for the children and grandchildren’s records. You never know who will need a dispensa that might give you further generations.
Instead of working your way back you might get some breaks by working your way in the opposite direction.
The "Información Matrimonial" often has further information about: where the groom is from, where he now resides and for how long, his age, who his parents are, where they are from, If they are living or deceased, any prior marriage (to whom and how long since widowed or divorced), If he is part of the military, and the same goes for the bride (except for the military). Normally there are about four or more pages that might help further your research. For instance, sometimes the witnesses are relatives, the parents of the bride write a letter of consent, or a dispensa might be required.
If the Información Matrimonial is not found at the parish level then you need to look at the Juristiction for your parish. Which Archdiocese did your parish belong too? Once you find out then search for the Información Matrimonial at the Archdiocese.
Other records are often found at the Archdiocese. Like padrones (similar to a census) and confirmation records. The confirmations can give clues as to which of the children did not reach adulthood. Often children die while they are young, thus they are never confirmed. Why do I mention this, because now you know that you do not need to look as hard for the child’s marriage?
Always pay close attention to information in the margins especially if you see the word dispensa. Information in the margin usually has additional and or clarifying information.
I got a few hits when I was looking through pilot (Pilot.FamilySearch.org), you might want to take a look. Try name variations. Sorry I do not have any other information on your ancestors.
I have not researched that line yet. I hope some of these suggestions help you and or others.
P.S. You might want to try this same aproch for Thomas Macias. Nicolas and him are more than likely either brothers or cousins.
Regards,
Eduardo H Seoane
Josepha de Alvarado married Nicolas Macias
Just a note of advice for new genealogists in regards to the records
informing you of grandparents. In my experience, if they list grandparents
without any reference to their being alive or not, do not assume they are
living. It is when "defuncto" or "que vive" is noted that you can use this
information to estimate date of death. I've more commonly found this in
marriage records if the grandparents are noted.
Luis Alvarda and Beatriz Lopes de Elislde
Eduardo
Thank you for the suggestions.
I have looked at the Información Matrimonial a bit, but since my Spanish is really not adequate, it presents some real challenges!
One thing I have also done, if that if it seems like there are few children in the family, I look for other wives. I have found a few cases where the groom's parents are named (along with the deceased first wife) in the marriage record for the second wife, whereas the first marriage record did not mention the groom's parents.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Luis Alvarda and Beatriz Lopes de Elislde
George,
If you need any help reading documents in spanish, let me know, I live in San Jose and come to Pleasanton to bring my grandson to visit with his mother who lives in Pleasanton. I would be happy to give it a look if you have copies of documents that need some translation. Sometimes it's not the actual translation that's a problem, it's the condition of the documents and the legibility of the scribe's hand writing.
Let me know if you need help, would be happy to assist.
Regards,
Alicia in San Jose, Ca.
________________________________
From: gpf13
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:03:32 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis Alvarda and Beatriz Lopes de Elislde
Eduardo
Thank you for the suggestions.
I have looked at the Información Matrimonial a bit, but since my Spanish is really not adequate, it presents some real challenges!
One thing I have also done, if that if it seems like there are few children in the family, I look for other wives. I have found a few cases where the groom's parents are named (along with the deceased first wife) in the marriage record for the second wife, whereas the first marriage record did not mention the groom's parents.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Luis Alvarado and Beatriz Lopes de Elisalde
I have a nicolas macias married to Luisa Gomez on 1/feb/1661
nicolas married to francisca de mendoza abt 1668
and nicolas marring josepha alvarado in 211/feb/1662
________________________________
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf of gpf13
Sent: Sat 3/14/2009 11:13 AM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis Alvarado and Beatriz Lopes de Elisalde
Luis Alvarado and Beatriz Lopez de Elisalde had daughters Maria Lopes de Elisalde and Josepha de Alvarado (and at least one other, Antonia Lopes de Alvarado).
Maria Lopes de Elisalde married Thomas Macias on 13 Sep 1659, in Aguascalientes.
Josepha de Alvarado married Nicolas Macias on 21 Feb 1662, in Aguascalientes.
Does anyone have information on Thomas Macias and Nicolas Macias?
George Fulton
Nicolas and Thomas Macias
I descend from Nicolas Macias through his son Onofre Macias. It is my belief that Nicolas and Thomas are brothers who married two Alvarado (Lopez de Lisaldi (Elisade)) sisters, Maria and Josepha. This was common practice in the early days and I have this practice done in my family as late as the 1900's in California. I have scoured the early Aguascalientes records, Baptisms, Marriages, Confirmations and Deaths and no where was I able to find the parents of these two Macias men. In my book "San Gabriel Valley Families of Nueva Galicia" I have listed all the children I was able to find for Nicolas and Thomas. All names are in alpha order for ease of reference.
Nicolas Macias was a very common name in Aguascalientes in the 1600's as there are 5 of them. Even Nicolas and Thomas each had a son Nicolas. Other common Macias names that appear often are Gaspar, Gertrudis, Pedro, and Juan.
I also have the Romo de Vivars' Tiscareno's, Ruiz de Esparza, Gonzales de Hermosillo and Fernandez de Palos lines, just to name a few. If they are mentioned in the book of dispensations by Maria de la Luz Montejano Hilton, I have that information in my book as well.
My book can be found at:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback_book/san_gabriel_valley_families_…
Rose Gonzales-Hardy
Fresno, CA
Nicolas and Thomas Macias
If they were not in Aguas, possibly there from the Lagos de Moreno branch or the San Juan de los Lagos branch this family spread all over the place like many alteños.
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Luis Alvarado and Beatriz Lopes de Elisalde
I think they should be Macías-Valadés due to the time fram of early Aguascalientes.
-Daniel
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