Online Status

By alicebb |

Greetings,
While reading an informacion matrimonial that contained consanguinidad en tercero con
cuartro grado. Two of the testigos claim that "conocio bien a toda la familia incluso el tronco que lo fue, Francisco Dias". What does "el tronco" mean in this context?
Is Francisco Dias the head of the family or the relative they have in common?
Thanks so much,
Alice BB

Online Status

R.A.Ricci

5 years 8 months ago

Permalink

Hello Alice,

It means that Francisco Dias is the common ancestor of the two lines. You are lucky because some times the dispensations only go back to where the lines show that they descend from siblings. The witnesses must have been old to be able to say that they knew Francisco Dias since he is the great-grandfather in one line, and the great-great -grandfather in the other line.

Rick A. Ricci

Online Status

alicebb

5 years 8 months ago

Permalink

Hello Rick,
Yes, one of the witnesses was in his nineties!
So, now I try to find "el tronco" with little more than a name!
How long ago would he have been born? I can only guess.
Thank you so much, because now I know what el tronco means in this context.
Take care.
Alice BB

Hello Alice,

You do have leads. You know more than just that his name is Francisco Diaz. His age is not just a guess but an educated calculation Let’s go over just the facts that you have given me about Francisco Diaz:

First, they knew Francisco Dias and that he is the great-grandfather in one line, and the great-great -grandfather in the other line. This means we can research all the people in the two lines and calculate a shorter time frame that would fit both lines.

Second, we know that the witnesses knew him so we can also use the ages of the witnesses used and see where the witnesses lived to see how, and when, they may have known him. If they went to the trouble of dragging in the oldest people for witnesses, then you can guess that younger people did not know him.

Third, they go to the trouble of not just mentioning the tronco as Francisco Diaz, but do not mention the mother, which leads me to the belief that there is a possibility that they don’t share the same mother. So now when you do your research you know that you have to be open to finding a different mother listed for each.

If you reread the record a few times, you may find other clues that you may have missed with one reading.

Good luck with your research,
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Your welcome

Hello Rick,
The trouble stems from language difficulties and not knowing the meaning of consanguindad terms. First the testigos say they are "ligados por parentesco porque su padre, Dolores
Candela y la madre de la pretense Ma Refugio Esquivel estaban en 2 con 3 grado. What does that mean? How close were they?
Then I think the mother in law (because the father is dead)"que ignorava absolutamente el parentesco que con tiene el pretense tiene contraido hasta ahorra." Does this say the mother in law was in denial of the consanguinidad or didn't know about it?
It goes on to say that the testigos deduced a genealogical tree that shows they are related en tercero con quatro grado. Where does this put the couple--1st, 2nd, cousins or closer?
Thanks so much for your advice assistance. FYI: Asientos, Informacion Matri 1840, 1843-44
image #672
Alice BB

Alice

My Spanish isn't fluent, but it's workable, and the more you read the more terms you pick up

First degree of consanguinity is usually a pair of siblings
Second degree is usually first cousins/primos hermanos
Third degree second cousins/primos segundos
Fourth degree third cousins/primos terceros

After that, a dispensation isn't really required.

In your case, it looks like Dolores Candela and Maria Refugio are first cousins once removed, so they're between grades? And the mother of bride had no idea the couple shared kinship.

So going by what Rick said about being great grandfather to one and great great grandfather to the other . . .

Francisco Diaz (trunk/common ancestor)
1st degree - His child . . . sibling . . . another child
2nd degree - Dolores Candela . . . 1st cousin . . . child of child above
3rd degree - Groom . . . 2nd cousin . . . Maria Refugio Esquivel
. . . . . . . . . . . . 2nd cousin once removed . . . bride

(I'm assuming it's the bride who's younger. I could have it backwards. I'm not where I can look at the actual document.)

Good Luck!

~ Andrea

Hi Andrea,
Thank you so much.

This is what I've deduced: The first number refers to the trunco couple's relationship.
The second number refers to how far removed the subsequent generations are from el trunco.

The bride Ma Luisa Esquivel (hija natural) and groom Victor Candelas, are both 25.
So, Victor's father Dolores and Ma Luisa' mother Ma Refugio are related 2 con tercero.
Three generations removed? In other words, Francisco Dias, el trunco, was of Victor's grandparents generation?

Dolores' parents are Francisco Candelas and Ma Josefa Dias.
So...Francisco Dias "el tronco" maybe Ma Josefa Dias brother or first cousin?
Since two older witnesses claimed to have known Francisco Dias, this could be 75 years ago.

I hope I've come away with new knowledge and not messed it up! I appreciate so much having
a group like ours. There are so many resources who are willing to share.
Thanks again,
Alice BB

Francisco Diaz (trunk/common ancestor)
1st degree - Ma Josefa Dias. . . . sibling . . . another child
2nd degree - Dolores Candelas. . . 1st cousin . . . child of child above
3rd degree - Groom . Victor Candelas. . 2nd cousin . . . Maria Refugio Esquivel
. . . . . . . . . . . . 2nd cousin once removed . . . bride...Ma Luisa Esquivel

The father of Dolores was also known as Juan Francisco Candelas. Juan Francisco Candelas and Maria Josefa Diaz were married on Valentine’s Day in 1804.

Citation
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5F8-NYQ : 10 February 2018), Juan Fransisco Candelas and Maria Josefa Diaz, 14 Feb 1804; citing San Matias,Pinos,Zacatecas,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 1,095,679, 1,096,165.

Rick A. Ricci

Hello Rick,
Thanks to your help, I went back another generation on two trees--YEA!
Never having researched a consanguinidad situation before, I'm not sure where to go
from here. I'd like to find the bride's mother Ma Refugio Esquivel's connection to the Dias family. Is that even possible since the bride is a hija natural of Refugio Esquivel?
I found Ma Josefa Dias' parents: Jose Guillermo Dias and Paula Feliciana Trujillo and now I'll see if they had a son Francisco Dias.

Thanks again, for helping to clarify this.
Alice BB

Hi Alice,

Sorry about the confusion. I had mistakenly believed that Francisco Diaz was the “tronco” of both lines, but now I understand that he is Maria Josefa Diaz’s brother. The “tronco”of both lines are their parents. Here is the revised line :

Jose Guillermo Dias and Paula Feliciana Trujillo (trunk/common ancestors)
1st degree - Ma Josefa Dias. . . . siblings. . . Francisco Diaz
2nd degree-Dolores Candelas.1st cousin . child of Francisco Diaz
3rd degree - Groom . Victor Candelas. . 2nd cousin . Maria Refugio Esquivel
Bet. 3rd/4th degree. 2nd cousin once removed . bride...Ma Luisa Esquivel

Thanks,
Rick A Ricci

Hi Alice,

Juan Esteban Esquivel and María Francisca Diaz are possible parents of María Refugio Esquivel If they are her parents, then María Francisca Diaz is the daughter of Francisco Diaz and the tree would look like this:

Jose Guillermo Dias and Paula Feliciana Trujillo (trunk/common ancestors)
1st degree - Ma Josefa Dias. . . . siblings. . . Francisco Diaz
2nd degree-Dolores Candelas.1st cousin . Maria Francisca Diaz
3rd degree - Groom . Victor Candelas. . 2nd cousin . Maria Refugio Esquivel
Bet. 3rd/4th degree. ..............................bride...Ma Luisa Esquivel
(2nd cousins, once removed)

This is just speculation on my part as Juan Esteban Esquivel and María Francisca Diaz have the surnames, location, family connections, and time frame that we are looking for in the parents of María Rufugio Esquivel.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

Hello Rick,
Well, it's certainly worth investigating as I was looking for Esquivel/Dias connection.
Thanks again. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Alice BB

Genealogy Research