Hi Bill and Stephanie in my records I have Maria the one who married Felipe de Macias y Valades, as

Maria Ramirez de Tavera y Velasco o Maria Tavera y Velasco? How does the Velasco play in this? I have a suspicion

one of her paternal grandmother was Velasco, since she didnt use Torre, her mothers surname, while her other sisiters took

on there mothers surname? Tavera can also be Portuguese Tavira. But Castilianised would be Tavera, Tavira is a portuguese town near Sevilla. I think we also have to look at how the surnames were distributed in this family.

Usually Torres and de la Torre are the same

Apolonia Torres

Francisca Torres

Antonio Ramirez de Tavera

Maria Ramirez de Tavera or Maria Tavera y Velasco

Paula Torres

nicolas Ramirez de Tavera

Agueda Torres.

Out of all the girls Maria took her paternal name. Usually for importance or after a grandmother. We need to keep researching, but what since Antonio took Ramirez, Nicolas' parents could be a Antonio Ramirez de Tavera and Maria de Velasco? Just a thought.

Also Nicolas and Apolonias Grandchildren took on various surnames. La Audencia de Guadalajara has to have some record on them.

-Daniel Camino

_________________________________________________________________

Hola Bill ,I went to www.familysearch.org and looked up Felipe Macias Valadez
and Maria Tavera . They have Nicolas Macias Valadez and Leonor Retamosa as Parents of felipe. I know yours is right because of a marriage document. How or why does familysearch differ so much yet similar ?

thanks for your time

Ronnie
> From: bill_figueroa@usa.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 15:50:29 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Polonia Torres Y Nicolas Ramirez -15thcentury
>
> Stephanie,
>
> In his book "Aguascalientes y su región de influencia hasta 1810 - Sociedad y Política" historian José Antonio Gutiérrez Gutiérrez mentions that before the founding of Aguascalientes in 1575, Nicolás Ramírez, Cristobal de Mata, Francisco Gómez and Menzo López had been granted some land, which I suppose is where "Hacienda de las Peñuelas" is located. The earliest church records of Aguascalientes start in the early 1600s, so none of the baptismal records of the children of Nicolás Ramírez and Polonia de Torres are in the books. We know they had at least nine children, all born in Aguascalientes. Some of them used the surname Tavera, so there is one clue about their grandparents' surname. As you probably know, using the surname of a grandparent was not uncommon in those days. There are marriage records from Aguascalientes where there is information about some of their children. For example the marriage of their daughter María de Tavera to Phelipe Macías Valadez on 01 July 1618 reads as follows:
>
> "El 1 de julio de 1618 contrajo matrimonio Phelipe Macías Valadés, hijo de Alonso Macías Valadés y de María de Retamosa, con María de Tavera, hija de Nicolás Ramírez y de Polonia de Torres, vecinos de Aguascalientes. Testigos Alonso Macías y Francisco Macías. Veláronse el 3 de octubre de 1618. Fueron padrinos María de Torres y Antonio Tavera, hermanos de la pretensa."
>
> Some of the children were married at the private chapel in Las Peñuelas, like Mariana de Tavera who married Gaspar Macías Valadez on 06 March 1622. Their marriage record reads as follows:
>
> "El 6 de marzo de 1612, en la Estancia de las Peñuelas de Nicolás Ramírez, contrajeron matrimonio Gaspar Macías y Mariana de Torres, siendo testigos Alonso Macías, y los mellizos y Nicolás Ramírez."
>
> Another daughter, Agueda de Torres y Tavera, married Hernando de Valdivia at the same chapel on 26 Jan 1622. Hernando was born at Villa de Serena, Extremadura, Reynos de Castilla.
>
> I suppose the land grants are archived at the "Archivo de Tierras y Aguas" which is now part of the "Archivo Histórico de Jalisco". Not to discourage you, but I have been through hundreds of documents from Tierras y Aguas and have never seen anything related to Nicolás Ramírez or Polonia de Torres.
>
> I visited the ex-Hacienda de las Peñuelas in 2008, which is less than one mile from the airport. Interesting place. I was lucky to be there while a crew was filming a movie and was allowed to go in. I guess the guard thought I was a member of the crew. :-) Unfortunately, there are no documents stored there.
>
> Bill Figueroa