Online Status
http://www.asoftanswer.com/2008/05/02/vatican-blocks-mormon-access-to-r…
This is a link to a Mormon site about the controversy re re-baptisms of Catholics.
Maybe we can start writing letters to the Catholic Bishops with copies to the Vatican to let them know of our feelings. We could also write to the Mormon Bishops in the local stakes. The two entities need to have a dialog about this. Maybe the LDS can work something out in order to allow further work.
The Jews who in 1995 discovered that their Holocaust victims had been re-baptized into the LDS were furious and thought the LDS church arrogant. They want to be Jews forever. I know devout Catholics want to remain so also.
I know I wondered why so many of my ancestors had been "baptized" into the LDS since the actual documents show they were all baptized Catholic. I found that many published family trees and trees and group sheets submitted to the LDS church or gathered by them from books, etc. had been put into databases and volunteers would go into the temple and get into what looks like a giant hot tub, nd they have the lists of people to be baptized on a screen and they baptize them by proxy.
Why this posthumous baptism? "A distinctive doctrine of the [LDS] church is that the dead as well as the living may receive the gospel of Jesus Christ. Every man, woman, and child who has ever lived or who ever will live on the earth will have full opportunity, if not in this life then in the next, to embrace or reject the gospel in its purity and fullness". The belief is that baptism needs be done by the living since it cannot be accomplished except by those "still in the flesh". They say that Jesus sent his disciples to preach his gospel which includes the "ordinance of baptism". They also say that the Apostle Paul mentioned baptism for the dead. However, I am in agreement that only direct descendants converting to the LDS church have the right to speak for their ancestors and re-baptise them themselves, and non-descendants should not take that upon themselves.
When I told someone at my local LDS church that my Catholic ancestors would roll over in their graves to find they had been re-baptized into a creed they did not believe in and rejected outright when alive, I was told that the dead had a right to refuse the baptism--- in other words, the dead have "free agency". But why put that burden on them?
Most Christian churches believe that to die without being baptized is to remain in purgatory forever and never get to Heaven. So, Catholics baptize their babies who do not have the ability of free agency. When my Mother realized I had rejected the Catholic Church (I am a confirmed agnostic) she wanted to know why I was the only one in the family who did that--that I had been "born" a Catholic, and I told her no, I had been baptized as an infant without my permission, and that I had the right then to reject that creed.
So, I don't really care who re-baptises me into whatever faith--since all Christians and Muslims feel that the doctrines of their creeds are the only true faith, as long as I can continue to have access to the records of my ancestors. Too bad that the LDS re-baptized some without the permission of their ancestors, and too bad that the Catholic Church objects so much to something that is meaningless to their creed.
We'll just have to see how this plays out. In the meantime I am grateful for the genealogical work of the LDS, but so sorry to see that they were so aggressive in applying their doctrine.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
This was very thoughtful thought! We all believe in the same GOd were just in different religions.
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The Pope & The Mormons
I have been a member of NR for several months now but never posted before. I've searched some of the records on the NR site but found very few of my Mexican ancestors listed either here or on familysearch.
This subject of the pope and the records was a real hot button topic for me & I'm sure for many others here. I have been actively researching my heritage for 11 years. Also, I happen to be LDS but the church's beliefs are NOT my reason for searching for my ancestors. I have done temple work on their behalfs in the past but now prefer to just spend what little time I have on research rather than making it my life's mission to "baptize" every tom, dick & harry who happens to be in my family tree.
There are alot of things I do believe in in regards to Mormon belief as well as plenty I disagree with-one thing is they (the LDS) need to learn tolerance for others because it is up to everyone to worship as they see fit as per our 12 articles of faith. But for the Catholic church to take away the access to the records from everyone in an attempt to ensure that none of their baptized deceased members can be rebaptized Mormon ruins things for those interested in genealogy (both LDS members & non LDS alike) who have a right to the records concerning their deceased ancestors regardless of what their religion in this life was.
I have had relatives notice the temple ordinances noted in my database on various common ancestors from time to time who literally jumped down my throat for having done the work which didn't really mean all that much to me because everyone is supposed to have the free agency to choose for themselves as to whether to accept or reject the ordinances performed for them. It's like leading a horse to water; the LDS can do the work, but can't make that spirit accept the work done for them. Contrary to the LDS church's teachings, I believe God sees our hearts and when we stand before him to account for ourselves, I don't really think it's going to matter to Him all that much whether we went to the RIGHT or WRONG church, or had this ordinance or that done.
Juli D. Quinteros de Hernandez
Dallas, TX
The Pope & The Mormons
I have been a member of NR for several months now but never posted before. I've searched some of the records on the NR site but found very few of my Mexican ancestors listed either here or on familysearch.
This subject of the pope and the records was a real hot button topic for me & I'm sure for many others here. I have been actively researching my heritage for 11 years. Also, I happen to be LDS but the church's beliefs are NOT my reason for searching for my ancestors. I have done temple work on their behalfs in the past but now prefer to just spend what little time I have on research rather than making it my life's mission to "baptize" every tom, dick & harry who happens to be in my family tree.
There are alot of things I do believe in in regards to Mormon belief as well as plenty I disagree with-one thing is they (the LDS) need to learn tolerance for others because it is up to everyone to worship as they see fit as per our 12 articles of faith. But for the Catholic church to take away the access to the records from everyone in an attempt to ensure that none of their baptized deceased members can be rebaptized Mormon ruins things for those interested in genealogy (both LDS members & non LDS alike) who have a right to the records concerning their deceased ancestors regardless of what their religion in this life was.
I have had relatives notice the temple ordinances noted in my database on various common ancestors from time to time who literally jumped down my throat for having done the work which didn't really mean all that much to me because everyone is supposed to have the free agency to choose for themselves as to whether to accept or reject the ordinances performed for them. It's like leading a horse to water; the LDS can do the work, but can't make that spirit accept the work done for them. Contrary to the LDS church's teachings, I believe God sees our hearts and when we stand before him to account for ourselves, I don't really think it's going to matter to Him all that much whether we went to the RIGHT or WRONG church, or had this ordinance or that done.
Juli D. Quinteros de Hernandez
Dallas, TX
The Pope & The Mormons
I have been a member of NR for several months now but never posted before. I've searched some of the records on the NR site but found very few of my Mexican ancestors listed either here or on familysearch.
This subject of the pope and the records was a real hot button topic for me & I'm sure for many others here. I have been actively researching my heritage for 11 years. Also, I happen to be LDS but the church's beliefs are NOT my reason for searching for my ancestors. I have done temple work on their behalfs in the past but now prefer to just spend what little time I have on research rather than making it my life's mission to "baptize" every tom, dick & harry who happens to be in my family tree.
There are alot of things I do believe in in regards to Mormon belief as well as plenty I disagree with-one thing is they (the LDS) need to learn tolerance for others because it is up to everyone to worship as they see fit as per our 12 articles of faith. But for the Catholic church to take away the access to the records from everyone in an attempt to ensure that none of their baptized deceased members can be rebaptized Mormon ruins things for those interested in genealogy (both LDS members & non LDS alike) who have a right to the records concerning their deceased ancestors regardless of what their religion in this life was.
I have had relatives notice the temple ordinances noted in my database on various common ancestors from time to time who literally jumped down my throat for having done the work which didn't really mean all that much to me because everyone is supposed to have the free agency to choose for themselves as to whether to accept or reject the ordinances performed for them. It's like leading a horse to water; the LDS can do the work, but can't make that spirit accept the work done for them. Contrary to the LDS church's teachings, I believe God sees our hearts and when we stand before him to account for ourselves, I don't really think it's going to matter to Him all that much whether we went to the RIGHT or WRONG church, or had this ordinance or that done.
Juli D. Quinteros de Hernandez
Dallas, TX
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
With "tongue in cheek", maybe the Pope could retaliate by re-baptising the dead Mormons to Catholicism?
Jose Carlos de Leon
Vatican Blocking Mormons
Maybe we should write to the Pope, he seems like a reasonable guy. Wonder if he has his own website? We could email him. I am sure we would make his day. Nothing like a bunch of letters from irate genealogists.
Maureen Bejar
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
How much you wanna bet that the Mormon Church would never let anyone else view their Church records for Baptisms, marriages or otherwise?
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
----- Original Message ----
From: Jose Carlos de Leon
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:40:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
With "tongue in cheek", maybe the Pope could retaliate by re-baptising the dead Mormons to Catholicism?
Jose Carlos de Leon
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
Well I was really surprised, as most people here in Los Altos, when I first
found out that the Mormon Church was granted authorization to microfilm all
these records that we've been so gratefully using for our research.
When I first went to the Parrish in Jalostotitlan, Jalisco (one of the
oldest in the Los Altos region) they told me that one of the conditions for
the Mormons to microfilm their records was that they would give each church
a copy of every film that was created. According to the people here, this
never happened. Instead, they were told recently that they could purchase
each film for $3000 dollars. I'm not saying this is what actually happened
or that it didn't, just that this is what I was told in Jalos.
Rick
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Alicia
Carrillo
Enviado el: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:04 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records |
A Soft Answer
How much you wanna bet that the Mormon Church would never let anyone else
view their Church records for Baptisms, marriages or otherwise?
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
----- Original Message ----
From: Jose Carlos de Leon
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:40:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records
| A Soft Answer
With "tongue in cheek", maybe the Pope could retaliate by re-baptising the
dead Mormons to Catholicism?
Jose Carlos de Leon
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
I thought the same thing, I also thought they could provide there own resource sight from what I ungerstand , the vatican librarys have a wealth of knowledge That coud be a fantastic project.
mari
----- Original Message ----
From: Jose Carlos de Leon
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 2:40:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
With "tongue in cheek", maybe the Pope could retaliate by re-baptising the dead Mormons to Catholicism?
Jose Carlos de Leon
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
Would we not still have access to the Civil Records ?
Pat
Tracy, Calif.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Alicia Carrillo
> How much you wanna bet that the Mormon Church would never let anyone else view
> their Church records for Baptisms, marriages or otherwise?
>
> Alicia,
> San Jose, Calif
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records
I think that, like in every company and organization, information is one of
the most, if not the most valuable asset that it has. If our Catholic
leaders think it's best to keep that information private, then they're in
their right to do so.
Now if this does happen, then the Catholic Church should also open their own
Libraries and Research Centers around the world to allow any person
interested in genealogy to begin or continue their research.
Just a thought...
Rick
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records
I have just joined nuestrosranchos, and I am sadden to hear about the church doing what they plan to do. They need to hear from how some of us feel, is there a way that we can cc them on our emails so that they can see that to some of us it is very important to find out where we came from and want to record our history. Take care, be safe, be blessed.
tiodann@msn.com> From: rickrod.com@gmail.com> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:33:28 -0500> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records> > I think that, like in every company and organization, information is one of> the most, if not the most valuable asset that it has. If our Catholic> leaders think it's best to keep that information private, then they're in> their right to do so.> > Now if this does happen, then the Catholic Church should also open their own> Libraries and Research Centers around the world to allow any person> interested in genealogy to begin or continue their research.> > Just a thought...> > Rick> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> general(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
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The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records| A Soft Answer
Yes, we should be able to have access to civil records, if the governments allow it. I know that in some places in Canada some officials are reluctant to release those records due to the disclosure of race (Native American, etc.) of some of their ancestors.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records| A Soft Answer
Would we not still have access to the Civil Records ?
Pat
Tracy, Calif.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Alicia Carrillo >
> How much you wanna bet that the Mormon Church would never let anyone else view
> their Church records for Baptisms, marriages or otherwise?
>
> Alicia,
> San Jose, Calif
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records| A Soft Answer
Right, their "Temple Submission Files" can only be seen by those logged in with their membership numbers in order to view the temple ordinance and dates., Non-members see the information the way we see it on the IGI index.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Alicia Carrillo
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records| A Soft Answer
How much you wanna bet that the Mormon Church would never let anyone else view their Church records for Baptisms, marriages or otherwise?
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
----- Original Message ----
From: Jose Carlos de Leon >
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:40:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
With "tongue in cheek", maybe the Pope could retaliate by re-baptising the dead Mormons to Catholicism?
Jose Carlos de Leon
The Vatican blocks Mormon access to records | A Soft Answer
Actually Alicia, back to your comment the church has microfilmed all baptisms, marriages and (well we dont really have death certificates in the church but anyway) we've microfilmed already on average 1830-1960 so you can easily view them. But usually non-mormons wont ordered them usually more mormons do b/c some original first mormon ancestors in the genealogy.
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