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By RaquelRuiz |
I just finished reading an article some of you may find of interest: "The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula" by Susan M. Adams, et al, in the Dec. 12, 2008 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Vol. 83, pp 725-736. I don't pretend to understand all of it, but grasped enough to feel the reading worthwhile. I had to get the assistance of someone with access to a medical library to get it, but you all may have your own resources.
DNA Article
Rachel,
I found many articles on the family tree DNA web page, however because I am not one with a high degree of medical and scientific language, it's difficult for me to understand what I'm reading in language for the common man. I will keep reading and trying to wade my way through it, and if I manage to gleen just a tidbit, well it's better than not trying at all.
Thanks again,
Alicia
________________________________
From: RaquelRuiz
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:28:08 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA Article
I just finished reading an article some of you may find of interest: "The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula" by Susan M. Adams, et al, in the Dec. 12, 2008 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Vol. 83, pp 725-736. I don't pretend to understand all of it, but grasped enough to feel the reading worthwhile. I had to get the assistance of someone with access to a medical library to get it, but you all may have your own resources.
DNA Article
I read through the article, most of it was over my head , I've been into the history of Spain for quite some time and have a good grasp on the peoples that settled in Spain, a flimsy grasp on the science of genetics though ! What I could understand I found very interesting, especially since I have a feeling that my Y DNA will come back J2 or E, again I could be totally wrong. The only problem I have is with the perceprtion of J and E being exclusivley Berber or Sephardic Jew. First I must say that I have no problem with either of these ethnic groups and would be proud to have them as my ancestors. The orgins of the aboriginal "Iberian" has never been solved and to me there is the very distinct possibility that either one of these could be their DNA. Speculation is that they came from either North Africa or the East, corresponding to the J and E Y DNA haplotype. According to the article, there is a large amout of the population that has these two types in Spain . Another puzzle, why does J2 show high in Asturias ( 8%) the supposed enclave of the Goths and "Celtic" peoples ? Also, according to the study there was a sizeable Jewish population in Minorca yet very litte,if any DNA evidence to back this up. I read an article sometime back that the J Y dna marker was originally dubbed the "Phoenician" haplotype, the early Greeks also have a high rate of J2. Again, I have to stress it's not my intention to deride the Jewish people or their contribution, which has been vast in regards to Spain, I think it might be "misleading" to lable it as such. J2 is also found in parts of Northern England \ Scotland and Wales, again I'm no genetisist, but it feels more like a Neolithic contribution to the gene pool. As for the Basques being labled "Iberian", there have been studies that show they have more DNA in common with the 'Western European" or Celts, in fact the DNA of the Western Irish is almost identicle to the Basques. I have alot of info on that as my mothers people are Basque but I think I've bored everyone enough ! Robert ~
DNA Celtic and Spain
I am not certain, but since I have been researching my own Northern Irish, I thought that I would put a couple cents in to this discussion. The DNA of Spanish origin may well be mixed with Celtic blood. To understand this, you must follow the O'Neill story on the "Wild Geese". Many of the Irish clans members were taken in by Spain when their boat was virtually politically stranded there after losing to the British. They intermixed with the population in Madrid. Spain was sympathetic to the Irish Catholics in their fight against the British, but then one King failed them in their time of need. Also, many a Spanish ship was lost on the Northern Coasts of Ireland. A short way away from my ancestral home of Rosbeg, Donegal, Ireland, many shipwrecked Spainards were hidden by the Northern Irish and smuggled back to Spain. It took them a long time to get back, possibility of some of those sailors took Irish wives back with them??? There is a long history between the countries. I believe there is even a few O'Neill's in Spain and a pub by that name. I am an O'Neill on my maternal side and I remember getting an email from someone in Spain looking for his Irish roots that went back quite a number of eons. I could not help as I am stuck in the 1830's
Anyway, there might be the Irish DNA dilemma solved. Is there any way to figure out how many generation a particular marker goes back and if so, maybe you might be able to tell if this is the case?
As always, I keep telling my husband we're probably related and should have his DNA done.
Maureen
DNA Celtic and Spain
Good stuff Maureen, the Irish \ Iberian connection goes back even farther than that. Have you ever heard of the "Irish Book of Invasions" ? In it , the decendants of a mythical figure named "Mil Espanie" ( the Spanish Soldier) conquer and settle Ireland by way of Spain, they were the Gaels. Even the ancient names of the countries are similar "Iberia" and "Hibernia" . The Scots also have a similar myth in which their ancestors "dwelt among savage tribes in Spain" before coming to Scotland. Genetic evidence bears some of this out as the western Irish and some Spaniards \ Basques are identical in DNA. The connections have been going on for eons, as well as the connection between Wales and Cornwall and Spain. The Roman historian Tacitus said that the Silures, a tribe in what is now Wales, had " swarthy skin and dark curly hair" like the native Spaniards. Funny thing is that the ancient Irish, British and Welsh never referred to them selves as "Celts" in antiquity, not did the Romans call them Celts, that was reserved for the Gauls and Galatians. The term Celt is a product of the 17th century when the people of the British Isles sought to differentiate them selves from one another. Early on it was a derogatory term used by Anglo\ Saxon peoples to seprate who they were from the Irish and Welsh. Barry Cunliffe wrote a wonderful book called " Facing the Ocean: the Atalantic and It's Peoples" where he delves into who the Celts actually were and who were not, but had what would be called a "Celtic Culture" in terms of liguistics and tools. I know the ancient Romans said that there was a Celtic presence in Spain, but even then there was so many different ethnic groups it's hard to say who really was Celtic. The Cantabrianss were thought to be Ligurians, then we have the shadowy Iberians in the south and east, we have the Lusitani in the far west who had a celtic culture, but were probably a mixture of Ibrians and early Indo Europeans, then the Basques who no one can figure out, add to all that Phoenicians, Greeks, Celts, North Africans, Romans and we haven't even gotten to the Germanic tribes and all those the Moors brought along with them (Slavs,Persians,Syrians, Sub Saharan Africans).....what a melting pot !
Irish/Spanish Connection
Great information! I am going to check out the Invasion book and Facing the Ocean. Thanks for all the book plugging. Love a new read and had not realized that Spain was such a melting pot. Maybe even more than Mexico and the US!
Irish/Spanish Connection
You are most welcome Maureen! I hope I didn't sound like a "know it all"...I get really excited about all this stuff, history, mythology and ancient connections. Spain was not only a mosaic of different peoples, but they ALL intermingled, granted it was less in ancient times due to the mountains that criss cross all of Spain, cutting some peoples off from others, but it still happened eventually. That is why the whole idea of "purity of blood" the Medieval Spaniards pushed was so ridiculous, the more noble the family the more mixed the blood due to dynastic marriages between Moorish grandees and Christian rulers, not to mention the Jews. So many notable Spaniards are said to have Sephardic backgrounds, from Saint Teresa of Avila to Miguel De Cervantes. Don't get me wrong; I'm very proud of my Spanish blood, whatever the vintage may be. I've traveled through Spain, what a warm, generous people, beautiful and kind. It's just that, as historians and genealogists, we are searching for the truth right? So we have to be honest with ourselves and what we discover about our ancestors \ family, hard as it may be at times. I encourage you to pick up the Barry Cunliffe book, you may have to dig through Irish mythology to find a chapter or two on the Invasion's cycle. My wife is half Irish and I picked up book called " The History of the Irish" that had a chapter dedicated to the coming of the Gaels to Ireland. I'm a bookworm so you are a kindred spirit! Robert Gonzalez~
DNA Celtic and Spain
Robert--
You mention the Welsh. They too have a mysterious origin, and a language like no other. The singer Tom Jones once spoke about songs his father taught him, and I believe he said they may have had a Jewish origin. Some Welsh have a certain look and very curly hair, so I wonder if they had a Semitic origin.
Also, have you heard about that group of people that some Spanish explorers found on an island off the coast of Spain centuries ago? They were described as being very strange, very blonde and were trying to tell the officers about their myths of their origins, but the Spaniards weren't archeologists or geneticists, they were plundering conquerors, and they just killed these people and took their treasures. I wonder who those people were.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: El Peregrino
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA Celtic and Spain
Good stuff Maureen, the Irish \ Iberian connection goes back even farther than that. Have you ever heard of the "Irish Book of Invasions" ? In it , the decendants of a mythical figure named "Mil Espanie" ( the Spanish Soldier) conquer and settle Ireland by way of Spain, they were the Gaels. Even the ancient names of the countries are similar "Iberia" and "Hibernia" . The Scots also have a similar myth in which their ancestors "dwelt among savage tribes in Spain" before coming to Scotland. Genetic evidence bears some of this out as the western Irish and some Spaniards \ Basques are identical in DNA. The connections have been going on for eons, as well as the connection between Wales and Cornwall and Spain. The Roman historian Tacitus said that the Silures, a tribe in what is now Wales, had " swarthy skin and dark curly hair" like the native Spaniards. Funny thing is that the ancient Irish, British and Welsh never referred to them selves as "Celts" in antiquity, not did the
Ro
mans call them Celts, that was reserved for the Gauls and Galatians. The term Celt is a product of the 17th century when the people of the British Isles sought to differentiate them selves from one another. Early on it was a derogatory term used by Anglo\ Saxon peoples to seprate who they were from the Irish and Welsh. Barry Cunliffe wrote a wonderful book called " Facing the Ocean: the Atalantic and It's Peoples" where he delves into who the Celts actually were and who were not, but had what would be called a "Celtic Culture" in terms of liguistics and tools. I know the ancient Romans said that there was a Celtic presence in Spain, but even then there was so many different ethnic groups it's hard to say who really was Celtic. The Cantabrianss were thought to be Ligurians, then we have the shadowy Iberians in the south and east, we have the Lusitani in the far west who had a celtic culture, but were probably a mixture of Ibrians and early Indo Europeans, then the Basques
w
ho no one can figure out, add to all that Phoenicians, Greeks, Celts, North Africans, Romans and we haven't even gotten to the Germanic tribes and all those the Moors brought along with them (Slavs,Persians,Syrians, Sub Saharan Africans).....what a melting pot !
DNA Article
Robert---
No, you didn't bore with your thoughts about the people who settled Spain, and you are not the only educated person here that can't quite grasp the science of genetics. When I get my results, I will need lots of help with the interpretation. I plan to go through the Gary Felix site, to support his genetic studies of "Mexicans".
I think the groups you mentioned that were first in a region then disappeared just died out or migrated elsewhere, or were captured or dispersed after wars.
My father was descended from Basques (Olague), and I even went to a town in the Navarre region by that name. My father thought his Basque ancestors came from France, since his great-grandfather was known as "El Frances" but my research shows no French, only Espanol, as far back as the late 1600s in Zacatecas. I also had a good friend from Pamplona who said her ancestry was very mysterious, that the Basque language has no other similar roots elsewhere, and that some there said that perhaps they were originally Jews since some words are the same in ancient Hebrew. Perhaps they were also Celts or Vikings?
So, I am very interested in what you find about your Basque ancestry as well as the J2. My husband might be of Jewish descent, since one of his lines was the Acosta who were prominent Jews in Spain. He has no indigenous lines according to the records I have found going back to the late 1600s in Jalisco and Aguascalientes. He is a Garcia, but he also has Gonzalez, Martin, Rubalcava, Alba, Cervantes, Morones, Ornelas, Villalobos, Magdaleno, Duron, Aguirre.
I will be very interested in what your DNA results show, both maternal and paternal.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: El Peregrino
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA Article
I read through the article, most of it was over my head , I've been into the history of Spain for quite some time and have a good grasp on the peoples that settled in Spain, a flimsy grasp on the science of genetics though ! What I could understand I found very interesting, especially since I have a feeling that my Y DNA will come back J2 or E, again I could be totally wrong. The only problem I have is with the perceprtion of J and E being exclusivley Berber or Sephardic Jew. First I must say that I have no problem with either of these ethnic groups and would be proud to have them as my ancestors. The orgins of the aboriginal "Iberian" has never been solved and to me there is the very distinct possibility that either one of these could be their DNA. Speculation is that they came from either North Africa or the East, corresponding to the J and E Y DNA haplotype. According to the article, there is a large amout of the population that has these two types in Spain . Another puz
zl
e, why does J2 show high in Asturias ( 8%) the supposed enclave of the Goths and "Celtic" peoples ? Also, according to the study there was a sizeable Jewish population in Minorca yet very litte,if any DNA evidence to back this up. I read an article sometime back that the J Y dna marker was originally dubbed the "Phoenician" haplotype, the early Greeks also have a high rate of J2. Again, I have to stress it's not my intention to deride the Jewish people or their contribution, which has been vast in regards to Spain, I think it might be "misleading" to lable it as such. J2 is also found in parts of Northern England \ Scotland and Wales, again I'm no genetisist, but it feels more like a Neolithic contribution to the gene pool. As for the Basques being labled "Iberian", there have been studies that show they have more DNA in common with the 'Western European" or Celts, in fact the DNA of the Western Irish is almost identicle to the Basques. I have alot of info on that as my
m
others people are Basque but I think I've bored everyone enough ! Robert ~