I apologize if this question has been asked, I did a search and could not find a substantive answer here. It is fairly common knowledge that Spanish names in the Americas have "Z" instead of "S". Chavez instead of Chaves. My rudimentary understanding is that the "Z" was used to deal with some of the indigenous sounds in words and names already in use in South America.
My question. Does anyone know when this change took place? Was there an official edict from Spain? Was it done after the revolution? I really would like to read about this subject. Any help would be appreciated.
Henry
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
Paul, no I wasn't familiar with the book. It does seem to be a good one.
Henry, your welcome.
Emilie, familysearch will provide results for alternate spellings most of the time but every once in a while some are missed for whatever reason. Ph comes from Greek via Latin, as do Th and a version of Ch as in Christobal. I can definitely understand the difficulty in relating people's names with their Latin equivalent.
Joseph, in 1492 Antonio de Nebrija wrote that there was a difference in the pronunciation in Spanish but currently the Royal Academy of Spanish states there should be no difference in the pronunciation. http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?IDLEMA=78019&NEDIC=Si The ambiguous use of the v/b show us there was no agreed upon rule of spelling for those periods and the priests found no difference in the pronunciation.
Armando
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
Thank you Armando, you have helped clear up a mystery for me: my mother was from New Mexico, descended from Pueblo Indians and the first Spaniards to explore the North. She used to talk about a big b and a little v, and I would get so frustrated explaining to her that neither was big or little, that they were distinct. I wrote them both in capital letters for her, and told her that those were "big" letters, and then I wrote them both in lower case and told her those were small letters. She didn't understand. She said that was the way she was taught. Since she was English speaking, I couldn't figure out who would have taught her that until I now recall that her father had hired a teacher from Mexico to home school his and the neighbor's kids in proper Castilian. It didn't take; she always spoke the dialect of her region.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:45:48 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
>
> Paul, no I wasn't familiar with the book. It does seem to be a good one.
>
> Henry, your welcome.
>
> Emilie, familysearch will provide results for alternate spellings most of the time but every once in a while some are missed for whatever reason. Ph comes from Greek via Latin, as do Th and a version of Ch as in Christobal. I can definitely understand the difficulty in relating people's names with their Latin equivalent.
>
> Joseph, in 1492 Antonio de Nebrija wrote that there was a difference in the pronunciation in Spanish but currently the Royal Academy of Spanish states there should be no difference in the pronunciation. http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?IDLEMA=78019&NEDIC=Si The ambiguous use of the v/b show us there was no agreed upon rule of spelling for those periods and the priests found no difference in the pronunciation.
>
> Armando
>
Letter V vs Letter B
Emilie,
My parents would say in spanish to distinguish the V from the B, "V de Vaca or B
de Burro".
To this day, this is still how I distinguish one from the other.
Thank you Armando, you have helped clear up a mystery for me: my mother was
from New Mexico, descended from Pueblo Indians and the first Spaniards to
explore the North. She used to talk about a big b and a little v, and I would
get so frustrated explaining to her that neither was big or little, that they
were distinct. I wrote them both in capital letters for her, and told her that
those were "big" letters, and then I wrote them both in lower case and told her
those were small letters. She didn't understand. She said that was the way she
was taught. Since she was English speaking, I couldn't figure out who would
have taught her that until I now recall that her father had hired a teacher from
Mexico to home school his and the neighbor's kids in proper Castilian. It
didn't take; she always spoke the dialect of her region.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:45:48 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
>
> Paul, no I wasn't familiar with the book. It does seem to be a good one.
>
> Henry, your welcome.
>
> Emilie, familysearch will provide results for alternate spellings most of the
>time but every once in a while some are missed for whatever reason. Ph comes
>from Greek via Latin, as do Th and a version of Ch as in Christobal. I can
>definitely understand the difficulty in relating people's names with their Latin
>equivalent.
>
> Joseph, in 1492 Antonio de Nebrija wrote that there was a difference in the
>pronunciation in Spanish but currently the Royal Academy of Spanish states there
>should be no difference in the pronunciation.
>http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?IDLEMA=78019&NEDIC=Si The ambiguous
>use of the v/b show us there was no agreed upon rule of spelling for those
>periods and the priests found no difference in the pronunciation.
>
> Armando
>
Letter V vs Letter B
V de vaca and b de burro, as well as b grande and v chica, is still used to
this day in Mexico to describe those letters when dictating the spelling of
a name or word. The correct way, in Mexico and Spain, is to say be for b and
uve for v.
Armando
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
> Emilie,
>
> My parents would say in spanish to distinguish the V from the B, "V de Vaca
> or B
> de Burro".
>
> To this day, this is still how I distinguish one from the other.
>
>
>
> Thank you Armando, you have helped clear up a mystery for me: my mother
> was
> from New Mexico, descended from Pueblo Indians and the first Spaniards to
> explore the North. She used to talk about a big b and a little v, and I
> would
> get so frustrated explaining to her that neither was big or little, that
> they
> were distinct. I wrote them both in capital letters for her, and told her
> that
> those were "big" letters, and then I wrote them both in lower case and told
> her
> those were small letters. She didn't understand. She said that was the
> way she
> was taught. Since she was English speaking, I couldn't figure out who
> would
> have taught her that until I now recall that her father had hired a teacher
> from
> Mexico to home school his and the neighbor's kids in proper Castilian. It
> didn't take; she always spoke the dialect of her region.
>
> Emilie
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: fandemma@gmail.com
> > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:45:48 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
> >
> > Paul, no I wasn't familiar with the book. It does seem to be a good one.
> >
> > Henry, your welcome.
> >
> > Emilie, familysearch will provide results for alternate spellings most of
> the
> >time but every once in a while some are missed for whatever reason. Ph
> comes
> >from Greek via Latin, as do Th and a version of Ch as in Christobal. I can
> >definitely understand the difficulty in relating people's names with their
> Latin
> >equivalent.
> >
> > Joseph, in 1492 Antonio de Nebrija wrote that there was a difference in
> the
> >pronunciation in Spanish but currently the Royal Academy of Spanish states
> there
> >should be no difference in the pronunciation.
> >http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?IDLEMA=78019&NEDIC=Si The
> ambiguous
> >use of the v/b show us there was no agreed upon rule of spelling for those
> >periods and the priests found no difference in the pronunciation.
> >
> > Armando
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
B labial
I also call B "be grande" and V "ve chica" since they do have different sizes when writing in lowercase, or "be de burro" and "ve de vaca".
B is also called "be labial" since it is supposed to be pronounced by joinng your lips (labios) while V would be "ve labiodental", since you have to pronounce it by touching your lower lip with your upper front teeth (dientes).
Indeed V is also called "uve" since it is the V that looks like an U.
In Mexico we pretty much pronounce both as B, just as we pronounce both Z and S as S, but in Spain they pronounce the differences.
Bictoriano Nabarro
B labial
Muchas Gracias Victoriano,
Cada dia aprende uno algo nuevo.
Saludos de San Jose, Ca.
________________________________
From: "mnavarrovillalobos@yahoo.com.mx"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 9:47:08 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] B labial
I also call B "be grande" and V "ve chica" since they do have different sizes
when writing in lowercase, or "be de burro" and "ve de vaca".
B is also called "be labial" since it is supposed to be pronounced by joinng
your lips (labios) while V would be "ve labiodental", since you have to
pronounce it by touching your lower lip with your upper front teeth (dientes).
Indeed V is also called "uve" since it is the V that looks like an U.
In Mexico we pretty much pronounce both as B, just as we pronounce both Z and S
as S, but in Spain they pronounce the differences.
Bictoriano Nabarro
Un poco tarde
A little late, but better late than never. The real diference stands on a portuguese vs. spanish origin. But remember that our ancestors weren't too strict with spelling, so it's not uncommon to find alternative writing in names and lastnames. For example: the last name Chavez was written Chaves in Portugal, and so was Gonçales, or Gonçalves, Alvares, etc. But don't mind, in old times, people would write it in any way.
DDII
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
In a Nuestros Ranchos message from 2006, Corrine Ardoin made the following statement:
"Also, because spelling was done phonetically, you can determine where an
ancestor was from in Spain by how they spelled words, some of which are
regionally distinct by Spanish provinces, whether associated with the church
or nobility, etc., because of how they anunciated their words".
It seems that the use of "s" and "z" interchangeably was a regional thing, in Spain and Latin America. It was just customary to use "s" or "z", depending on where one lived.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: henricvs@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:26:28 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
>
> I apologize if this question has been asked, I did a search and could not find a substantive answer here. It is fairly common knowledge that Spanish names in the Americas have "Z" instead of "S". Chavez instead of Chaves. My rudimentary understanding is that the "Z" was used to deal with some of the indigenous sounds in words and names already in use in South America.
>
> My question. Does anyone know when this change took place? Was there an official edict from Spain? Was it done after the revolution? I really would like to read about this subject. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Henry
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
In English
There are three distinct subjects that are touched on. There is the subject
of pronunciation and phonetic spelling, the subject of the -ez versus -es
suffix, and also the subject of the surname Chavez. I'll start with
pronunciation. It hasn't always been the same in México or Spain. There have
been many changes over the centuries and therefore would be very hard to
distinguish which sound the writer intended at that time in that region and
which social class the person was from. In 1492 Antonio de Nebrija wrote the
first work dedicated to the Spanish language and its rules, also the first
for any Romance language, and dedicated it to Queen Isabel. What he wrote
about the z is that it's sole purpose is for the diction of words of Greek
origin "la y griega y la z solamente son para las dicciones griegas". It
seems that over time the z became used more and currently there is a
distinction of the c, s, and z used by a majority of Spain that began in the
16th century. Latin America and a few parts of Spain do not have the
distinction and have what is called seseo, and the speakers seseantes, since
those three letters are all pronounced as /s/. Examples of the /s/ sound in
these words regardless of the letters used are - casa, caza, cierto, zapato,
and cereza. In Latin America we also pronounce all the surname suffixes of
-ez and -es the same. In Spain those words don't all have the /s/ sound,
some have the theta /θ/ which sounds like a lisp to us. They also pronounce
the surname suffixes the differently with the s having the /s/ sound and the
z having the /θ/. Since in Mexico the seseo is used I don't think the
spelling of the name would be based on the pronunciation. As for the surname
suffix -es becoming -ez in the Americas, what I have found is that -ez is
the accepted form in Spain although -es can also be found regardless of era
or area. The subject of pronunciation and phonetic spelling could be brought
up again but I don't see how each instance could be proven without notations
of some kind stating that the writer wanted to convey a specific sound.
Let's use Ruiz de Esparza and Ruis de Esparsa as an example. We know their
lineage and regional origin and we know that the changing of the spelling is
unrelated to their origin but I don't know that we can say when they
pronounced it any certain way. As far as the surname Chaves/Chavez there
doesn't seem to be an agreement on the origin. Different sources say
different things ranging from being Portuguese for llaves to Basque for
"casa de abajo".
Wikipedia has a great article on seseo including maps of Iberia showing the
presence or absence of /θ/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seseo
The Royal Academy of Spanish has this information on seseo -
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=seseo
Article on the history of sibilant phonemes in Spanish -
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reajuste_de_las_sibilantes_del_castellano
Antonio de Nebrija's Gramática de la lengua castellana -
http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/libro1.html
Info on patronymic surnames and the -es versus -ez suffix
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron%C3%ADmico
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=160495
http://www.heraldaria.com/apellidos.php#12
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z
Chavez/Chaves surname info
http://www.misapellidos.com/ver_datos.phtml?cod=19911
http://heraldicahispana.com/ApA/chaves-cipres.htm
Further discussion of the subjects is welcome.
En español
Mencionan tres temas distintos. Esta el tema de la pronunciación y la
ortografía fonética, el tema de la comparación del sufijo -ez y -es, y
también el tema del apellido Cháves/Chávez. Voy a empezar con el tema de la
pronunciación. No siempre ha sido igual en México y España. Ha habido muchos
cambios durante los siglos y por lo tanto sería muy difícil distinguir el
sonido que el escritor intentó escribir aún tomando en cuenta el siglo la
región y la clase social del sujeto. En 1492 Antonio de Nebrija escribió la
primera obra dedicada a la lengua española y sus reglas, también la primera
de todas las lenguas románicas, y lo dedicó a la reina Isabel. Lo que él
escribió fue "la y griega y la z solamente son para las dicciones
griegas". Parece
que con el tiempo se empezó a usar más la z y actualmente hay una distinción
de la c, s y z en la mayor parte de España, que comenzó en el siglo
XVI. América
Latina y algunas partes de España no tiene la distinción y lo que se llama
seseo y los hablantes seseantes, ya que esas tres letras son pronuncia como
/s/. Ejemplos del sonido /s/ existe en estas palabras, independientemente de
las letras utilizadas - casa, caza, cierto, zapato, y cereza. En América
Latina también se pronuncia todos los sufijos de los apellidos-ez y-es lo
con /s/. En España, no todas esas palabras tienen el sonido /s/, algunas
tienen el sonido theta /θ/. También pronuncian el apellido de los sufijos de
manera distinta con la s que tienen el sonido /s/ y la z que tiene el sonido
/θ/. Dado que en México el seseo se usa no creo que la ortografía del
apellido se basa en la pronunciación. En cuanto al sufijo -es cambiandose al
sufijo -ez en las Américas, lo que he encontrado es que- ez es la forma
aceptada en España, aunque -es también se puede encontrar sin importar la
época o área cuando uno hace una busqueda en familysearch. Se podria usar el
tema de la pronunciación y la ortografía fonética de nuevo, pero no veo cómo
cada instancia puede ser probado sin anotaciones de algún tipo que indica
que el escritor quería transmitir un sonido específico. Vamos a usar Ruiz de
Esparza y Ruis de Esparsa como ejemplo. Conocemos su linaje y origen
regional y sabemos que el cambio de la ortografía en México no está
relacionada con su origen, pero no sé si podemos decir cuando se pronunciaba
de una manera determinada. En cuanto al apellido Chaves/Chávez parece que no
estan de acuerdo sobre el origen. Diferentes fuentes dicen cosas diferentes
que van desde ser de origien portugués que significa llaves a origien vasco
Echabe que significa "casa de abajo".
Wikipedia tiene un gran artículo sobre seseo que incluye mapas de Iberia,
que muestra la presencia o ausencia de /θ/
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seseo
Real Academia Española sobre el seseo -
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=seseo
Historia de sibilantes -
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reajuste_de_las_sibilantes_del_castellano
Antonio de Nebrija Gramática de la lengua castellana -
http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/libro1.html
Apellidos patronomicos
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron%C3%ADmico
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=160495
http://www.heraldaria.com/apellidos.php#12
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z
Apellido Chavez/Chaves
http://www.misapellidos.com/ver_datos.phtml?cod=19911
http://heraldicahispana.com/ApA/chaves-cipres.htm
Discusion sobre los temas estará bien recibida
Armando
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
> In a Nuestros Ranchos message from 2006, Corrine Ardoin made the following
> statement:
>
> "Also, because spelling was done phonetically, you can determine where an
> ancestor was from in Spain by how they spelled words, some of which are
> regionally distinct by Spanish provinces, whether associated with the
> church
> or nobility, etc., because of how they anunciated their words".
>
> It seems that the use of "s" and "z" interchangeably was a regional thing,
> in Spain and Latin America. It was just customary to use "s" or "z",
> depending on where one lived.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: henricvs@gmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:26:28 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
> >
> > I apologize if this question has been asked, I did a search and could not
> find a substantive answer here. It is fairly common knowledge that Spanish
> names in the Americas have "Z" instead of "S". Chavez instead of Chaves. My
> rudimentary understanding is that the "Z" was used to deal with some of the
> indigenous sounds in words and names already in use in South America.
> >
> > My question. Does anyone know when this change took place? Was there an
> official edict from Spain? Was it done after the revolution? I really would
> like to read about this subject. Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Henry
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
Thank you Armando. Excellent explanation. Thanks for the references as well.
Henry Chavez
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
Yes, thank you, Armando. I always have to use interchangeably the s and z in order to find records in the indexes, such as for the name Zamora/Samora. I forgot to try Cerrato for Serrato.
Also, I have had trouble locating a Felipe, and I finally found him in the 1700s in La Barca spelled as Phelipe. So I figure the "ph" came from the Latin? Also, the Catholic church in El Paso Texas (Sacred Heart) has many forms printed in and fill-in information written in in complete Latin. I find my Marias as Mariam, Eligio as Eloia, Vicente as Vincentio, Petra as Petrum, etc. Doesn't make it easy to find people in the indexes.
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: henricvs@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:44:17 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
>
> Thank you Armando. Excellent explanation. Thanks for the references as well.
>
> Henry Chavez
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
Armando,
Thank you for your thoughtful remarks about the development of the Spanish language. Are you familiar with
David A. Pharies, "A Brief History of the Spanish Language", (2007)?
Paul Gomez
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Armando
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:03:53
To:
Reply-to: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
In English
There are three distinct subjects that are touched on. There is the subject
of pronunciation and phonetic spelling, the subject of the -ez versus -es
suffix, and also the subject of the surname Chavez. I'll start with
pronunciation. It hasn't always been the same in México or Spain. There have
been many changes over the centuries and therefore would be very hard to
distinguish which sound the writer intended at that time in that region and
which social class the person was from. In 1492 Antonio de Nebrija wrote the
first work dedicated to the Spanish language and its rules, also the first
for any Romance language, and dedicated it to Queen Isabel. What he wrote
about the z is that it's sole purpose is for the diction of words of Greek
origin "la y griega y la z solamente son para las dicciones griegas". It
seems that over time the z became used more and currently there is a
distinction of the c, s, and z used by a majority of Spain that began in the
16th century. Latin America and a few parts of Spain do not have the
distinction and have what is called seseo, and the speakers seseantes, since
those three letters are all pronounced as /s/. Examples of the /s/ sound in
these words regardless of the letters used are - casa, caza, cierto, zapato,
and cereza. In Latin America we also pronounce all the surname suffixes of
-ez and -es the same. In Spain those words don't all have the /s/ sound,
some have the theta /θ/ which sounds like a lisp to us. They also pronounce
the surname suffixes the differently with the s having the /s/ sound and the
z having the /θ/. Since in Mexico the seseo is used I don't think the
spelling of the name would be based on the pronunciation. As for the surname
suffix -es becoming -ez in the Americas, what I have found is that -ez is
the accepted form in Spain although -es can also be found regardless of era
or area. The subject of pronunciation and phonetic spelling could be brought
up again but I don't see how each instance could be proven without notations
of some kind stating that the writer wanted to convey a specific sound.
Let's use Ruiz de Esparza and Ruis de Esparsa as an example. We know their
lineage and regional origin and we know that the changing of the spelling is
unrelated to their origin but I don't know that we can say when they
pronounced it any certain way. As far as the surname Chaves/Chavez there
doesn't seem to be an agreement on the origin. Different sources say
different things ranging from being Portuguese for llaves to Basque for
"casa de abajo".
Wikipedia has a great article on seseo including maps of Iberia showing the
presence or absence of /θ/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seseo
The Royal Academy of Spanish has this information on seseo -
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=seseo
Article on the history of sibilant phonemes in Spanish -
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reajuste_de_las_sibilantes_del_castellano
Antonio de Nebrija's Gramática de la lengua castellana -
http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/libro1.html
Info on patronymic surnames and the -es versus -ez suffix
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron%C3%ADmico
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=160495
http://www.heraldaria.com/apellidos.php#12
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z
Chavez/Chaves surname info
http://www.misapellidos.com/ver_datos.phtml?cod=19911
http://heraldicahispana.com/ApA/chaves-cipres.htm
Further discussion of the subjects is welcome.
En español
Mencionan tres temas distintos. Esta el tema de la pronunciación y la
ortografía fonética, el tema de la comparación del sufijo -ez y -es, y
también el tema del apellido Cháves/Chávez. Voy a empezar con el tema de la
pronunciación. No siempre ha sido igual en México y España. Ha habido muchos
cambios durante los siglos y por lo tanto sería muy difícil distinguir el
sonido que el escritor intentó escribir aún tomando en cuenta el siglo la
región y la clase social del sujeto. En 1492 Antonio de Nebrija escribió la
primera obra dedicada a la lengua española y sus reglas, también la primera
de todas las lenguas románicas, y lo dedicó a la reina Isabel. Lo que él
escribió fue "la y griega y la z solamente son para las dicciones
griegas". Parece
que con el tiempo se empezó a usar más la z y actualmente hay una distinción
de la c, s y z en la mayor parte de España, que comenzó en el siglo
XVI. América
Latina y algunas partes de España no tiene la distinción y lo que se llama
seseo y los hablantes seseantes, ya que esas tres letras son pronuncia como
/s/. Ejemplos del sonido /s/ existe en estas palabras, independientemente de
las letras utilizadas - casa, caza, cierto, zapato, y cereza. En América
Latina también se pronuncia todos los sufijos de los apellidos-ez y-es lo
con /s/. En España, no todas esas palabras tienen el sonido /s/, algunas
tienen el sonido theta /θ/. También pronuncian el apellido de los sufijos de
manera distinta con la s que tienen el sonido /s/ y la z que tiene el sonido
/θ/. Dado que en México el seseo se usa no creo que la ortografía del
apellido se basa en la pronunciación. En cuanto al sufijo -es cambiandose al
sufijo -ez en las Américas, lo que he encontrado es que- ez es la forma
aceptada en España, aunque -es también se puede encontrar sin importar la
época o área cuando uno hace una busqueda en familysearch. Se podria usar el
tema de la pronunciación y la ortografía fonética de nuevo, pero no veo cómo
cada instancia puede ser probado sin anotaciones de algún tipo que indica
que el escritor quería transmitir un sonido específico. Vamos a usar Ruiz de
Esparza y Ruis de Esparsa como ejemplo. Conocemos su linaje y origen
regional y sabemos que el cambio de la ortografía en México no está
relacionada con su origen, pero no sé si podemos decir cuando se pronunciaba
de una manera determinada. En cuanto al apellido Chaves/Chávez parece que no
estan de acuerdo sobre el origen. Diferentes fuentes dicen cosas diferentes
que van desde ser de origien portugués que significa llaves a origien vasco
Echabe que significa "casa de abajo".
Wikipedia tiene un gran artículo sobre seseo que incluye mapas de Iberia,
que muestra la presencia o ausencia de /θ/
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seseo
Real Academia Española sobre el seseo -
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=seseo
Historia de sibilantes -
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reajuste_de_las_sibilantes_del_castellano
Antonio de Nebrija Gramática de la lengua castellana -
http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/libro1.html
Apellidos patronomicos
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron%C3%ADmico
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=160495
http://www.heraldaria.com/apellidos.php#12
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z
Apellido Chavez/Chaves
http://www.misapellidos.com/ver_datos.phtml?cod=19911
http://heraldicahispana.com/ApA/chaves-cipres.htm
Discusion sobre los temas estará bien recibida
Armando
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
> In a Nuestros Ranchos message from 2006, Corrine Ardoin made the following
> statement:
>
> "Also, because spelling was done phonetically, you can determine where an
> ancestor was from in Spain by how they spelled words, some of which are
> regionally distinct by Spanish provinces, whether associated with the
> church
> or nobility, etc., because of how they anunciated their words".
>
> It seems that the use of "s" and "z" interchangeably was a regional thing,
> in Spain and Latin America. It was just customary to use "s" or "z",
> depending on where one lived.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: henricvs@gmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:26:28 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
> >
> > I apologize if this question has been asked, I did a search and could not
> find a substantive answer here. It is fairly common knowledge that Spanish
> names in the Americas have "Z" instead of "S". Chavez instead of Chaves. My
> rudimentary understanding is that the "Z" was used to deal with some of the
> indigenous sounds in words and names already in use in South America.
> >
> > My question. Does anyone know when this change took place? Was there an
> official edict from Spain? Was it done after the revolution? I really would
> like to read about this subject. Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Henry
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
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> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas
Armando, ex(c/s/z)elente! I'm also curious of the letters "b" (grande) and "v"
(chica). Other than the fact that "b" is pronounced with a slight touching of
the lips and the "v" without doing that), I've noted a common interchange of
those letters i.e. Banuelos / Vanuelos, Chabes/ Chaves, Borrego / Vorrego,
etc. Any thoughts of it's origins on that?
________________________________
From: Armando
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 10:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] An "S" in Spain and "Z" in Americas