Great information Manny. This seems to settle it.

Danny

I had previously stated that I didn’t descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife. What I should have said was that I had not found him in my ancestral lines. Today I discovered that my wife and I both descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife Marina Gutierrez De la Cavalleria.

Rick A. Ricci

About six months ago I worked on the genealogy of my oldest sister’s mother-in-law. I had previously worked on my sister’s father-in-law’s family tree many many years ago, but had not worked on her mother-n-law’s family. I was surprised to discover many interesting stories on her mother-in law’s relatives as they were also deeply involved in Mexican Politics. It turns out that this research now connects to my research on Alonso Estrada. Today I discovered that an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon is an ancestor of Enrique, who is a second cousin of my brother-in-law. The two families merged together into the same picture.

I immediately thought that if we were to compare the dna from Enrique to Manny Hermosillo, who is a descendant of Alonso Estrada, then we could finally prove with dna that Alonso Estrada was king Ferdinand II’s illegitimate son. I even sent an email to Enrique asking him to provide his dna so that we could compare it to a descendant of Alonso Estrada. The problem is that after sending the email, it hit me that the dna comparison is going to be complicated because Luisa Estrada’s mother, who is repeatedly related to King Ferdinand II, is also related to the wife of the other illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II as they all descend from King Alfonso XI De Castilla

If Enrique and Manny both provide the dna results, then it would still be interesting to compare dna samples as they would both be related through the wives of the two illegitimate sons of King Ferdinand II. But because of this connection, it would not prove descent from King Ferdinand II. I presently believe that in order to prove the relationship of Alonso Estrada to king Ferdinand, we need to also compare a line that descends from another descendant of King Ferdinand II that is not so closely related to Luisa Estrada’s mother.

Rick A. Ricci

These inquest records supported by some researchers are in constant dispute.

Ricci has shared great examples of why. This is what we know from the inquest records we have someone trying to prove their purity of blood of neither Moor nor Jew.

In doing this he would have to prove he wasn't from Jewish descent decades upon decades later. There is no one alive from this time who really knew his relatives. Tall order. Here is something else he would have to prove; he had to prove he had a credible witness which even the inquest was not satisfied he had done.

The witness according to the entries was cited repeatedly by the inquisition that she was very old, blind, and could not remember but thought her relatives told her that the mother was was a so and so, perhaps Oliver. The witness upon inquiry continues to repeat she really didn't know she couldn't remember.

When asked if there was Jewish blood she again resorts to I don't know, I don't remember , I couldn't say. We have to remember this witness is working on behalf of a person trying to prove his purity of blood however LYING to the inquest would have been disastrous for her. Hiding Jews could be punishable.

This inquest record is weak at best, to prove his true line of descent. However from the records we can gather that even the witness could not even remember the names. There could also been some deception involved on the petitioners part in getting her to speak on his behalf. Surely he discussed it with her? Surely he knew she was blind and had memory loss. Surely she told him she did not remember and could not recall the names before he decided to request her as a witness? ;)

Perhaps the vague underpinnings of her testimony as unreliable as they were was better for him as his Jewish heritage could be neither confirmed or disputed. Instead his admittance would have to rely on his community standing and those who knew the petitioner well as being a pious Christian.

If so, getting her to testify was a stroke of genius.

My opinion is to disregard the inquest as proof. I would go over ALL stories and personal accounts of Don Alonso de Estrada that you can find. Go over all documents written about him and his relatives (Some are not scanned yet). Develop a personality profile of the man compare it to his rivals. This will help you build a larger picture of the society in which he lived, his motivations and how people interacted with Alonso.

I too do not believe in the "rags to riches" mythos. It would be near impossible that lower nobility could have risen to his ranks given the economic caste system even within the aristocracy. It would be equally shocking that Cortez would not have tried to kill him.

Cortez did not have a problem killing lesser nobles he killed his own wife! It rocked the New World. His wife was a high standing aristocrat with high ranking noble parents. There were even witnesses that immediately came that attested that he was in the room with her when she was screaming and her necklace was ripped from her neck when they found her dead. Cortez thought nothing of doing this to a high ranking lesser noble and got away with it in court.

The fact Alonso was appointed to oversee Cortez says a tremendous amount about how the court/ King viewed Cortez. They needed to keep him in line and Alonso was the way to make sure he did stay in line. In turn Cortez loathed and despised Alonso. In fact Cortez got so out of line Alonso threatened him and said "I am the son of the King!" you will obey. Cortez known for going after rivals noble or not, backed down.

Let that sink in. :D

This is why it is important to read as much as you can and create a profile of each individual taking full account of mores of the day. This in turn I believe creates a bigger picture and a better understanding of what is really going on in the records.

I hope this helps

Rags to riches stories involve skill, talent, work, or luck. Usually it will involve all of them. Alonso Estrada was a violent, aggressive man. He became treasurer because his nephew, Charles V, appointed him. Charles V took care to set up both of his illegitimate uncles, Alonso Estrada and Alfonso d’Aragon.

Alonso Estrada was born to privilege and acted like it. I don’t know of any non royal family member arriving with 12 of their own household slaves during this age. He was not a capable administrator and did not make it to the level that he did on his own merits. If he had been a son of Juan Fernandez Estrada then he would had to work a little harder on his personal and diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather, Juan Fernandez Estrada, was a very talented man, with top diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather’s brother also had excellent diplomatic skills as he too was an ambassador. The brothers were negotiators, deal makers.

If Alonso was not King Ferdinand’s son than why would they pay him almost twice what they paid Cortez when Alonso was just a treasurer.

Alonso Estrada was not very good at managing money even though he was a treasurer and eventually lost most of his money.

When my mother told me that we were related to Santo Toribio she said that he was my grandfather’s second cousin. My research shows him to be a third cousin. My mother often claims someone is more closely related than they are. When my mother claimed that both of my grandfather’s were closely related through through their Franco lines because both of them had mothers from the same Franco family, she was mistaken. Yes, they both had mothers that had the surname Franco, but the Francos were two branches that were not closely related. My dad and maternal grandmother were third cousins, but my mother had not known of that relationship. My mom mistakenly claimed that my first cousin Yvonne married her second cousin. It was not true, but they are third cousins. It is only through solid research that I have been able to find the exact relationships. When they did the genealogical investigation of Alonso Estrada for the first dispensation they asked someone like my mother who claimed a closer relationship than she actually had with Alonso Estrada. The person that she stated was Alonso Estrada’s father is not a close biological relative of Alonso Estrada. The person mentioned as Alonso’s father in the second dispensation has different parents than the parents mentioned in the first dispensation. There is no way that the paternal ancestry discussed in the two dispensations line up. The second dispensation does identify the correct Estrada family, but I repeat what I wrote earlier in this blog, Juan Fernandez Estrada is his maternal grandfather, and his first wife is well known and came from a family that was closely related to King Ferdinand II “el Catolico” and to the Villaseñor family that immigrates to Nueva Galicia. We know that the second dispensation does identify the correct Estrada line because it identifies juan Fernandez Estrada as the second son of the two brothers that moved from Asturias to Ciudad Real. The two brothers were both diplomats who became ambassadors for King Ferdinand II. Some genealogists have mistakenly claimed that juan’s brother, or their father is Alonso Estrada’s father. Or they mistakenly merge the brothers into one person. They also have mistakes as to the origin of this line of Estradas.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

Juan Fernandez Estrada, Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather and his brother were both ambassadors for King Ferdinand of Aragon. Many historians and genealogists have confused the two, or merged them into one person. But they are definitely two people. Juan Fernandez Estrada was the ambassador to the Vatican. Juan was sent to the Vatican immediately after the expulsion of the moors from Granada.

Both of the brothers had a lot of power as they both had King Ferdinand’s ear. Juan’s brother exercised a lot power in his assignments, and his descendants continued working for the future kings of Spain exercising much influence.

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

The biggest scandal in the Estrada family was not Alonso Estrada and Catalina Gutierrez Cavalleria ‘s descendants’ inquisition trials, nor was it Luisa having a child out of wedlock with King Ferdinand of Aragon. The biggest Estrada family scandal happened in the late. 1500’s and early 1600’s. The misdeeds were committed by a great grandson of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother. This Estrada family member wrote about his scandalous behavior, letting the world know about his misdeeds. He wrote he killed his bethrowed and a friend in a jealous tantrum when he found them together in a room. His fiancé was also the daughter of his cousin. He then escaped justice when a nun fell in love with him and helped him escape from his cell. He then traveled the old world, as a soldier for hire. He eventually settled down, became a monk and wrote his memoirs.

His books are supposed to be autobiographies, and most of what he has written is true but there is a little exaggeration because some of what he claims he did was done by his father. He has merged his and his father’s lives. His father helped him write the autobiographies. He was never an orphan. His father and mother were uncle and niece

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

Dear Manny,

There are portions of this family tree that are different than the other record. I believe that your finding of this record confirms my research on this family even though it clearly has some mistakes. This record correctly identifies that Alonso descends from the Juan Fernandez Estrada that was the second son the Estrada family that came over. The information that I have on on his parents and wives is concrete. The facts lead to Ambassador Juan Fernandez Estrada being Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather!and not his father. King Ferdinand is Alonso Estrada’s father.

King Ferdinand as an ancestor was not something many of his descendants were proud of because many of them were Jews. King Ferdinand’s expulsion of the Jews from Spain devastated many families.

Thanks again,
Rick A Ricci

A very important piece used to unraveling the mystery is the part where Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified as ““hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real”. This statement is the one that brings all the other puzzle pieces that I have collected together and positively identifies who it is that we are talking about.

Rick A. Ricci

Dear Manny,

Sorry to burst the bubble on the:

“It shows how a man can go from being a low-head-on-the-totem-pole holder of a señorio in Ciudad Real, to being governor of and one of the most powerful figures in one of the Crown’s newest acquisitions.”

It would have been a great “rags to riches” story, but Alonso Estrada was an illegitimate son of a king and the kings not-to-distant cousin so he had a major advantage from birth. He actually descended from royalty numerous times.

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

This limpieza and proof of nobility that appears to be dated 11 Dec 1608 is for a great-great granddaughter of Alonso de Estrada and Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. Much time has passed and information has been forgotten or intentionally changed. It is not uncommon for a great great grandchild to make an error when naming their great great grandparents. Juan Fernandez Estrada was her great great great grandfather and Luisa Estrada was her great great grandmother.

Juan Fernandez Estrada was an Hidalgo. The Hidalgo was not part of his surname. The Fernandez surname was because his father’s name was Fernando. He and his brother were close confidants of the King of Aragon, and served as ambassadors of Aragon to France and England. Juan’s mother came from the powerful Alvarez De Asturias family that also has royalty in their ancestry a couple of centuries back. Juan is married twice. His first wife is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II. Luisa Estrada is a daughter of Juan and his first wife. King Ferdinand and his distant cousin Luisa Estada are the parents of Alonso Estrada. He is given an immense salary, not for his service to the king, but because he is the king’s illegitimate son. Alonso is raised in the court of the king. His maternal cousins and nephews, descendants of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother, stay in Spain and provide a long history of service to the kings of Spain without the enormous salary that was given to Alonso.

The mythical family tree is the one in the limpieza. Diego Fernandez Hidalgo and Maria Gonzalez de Estrada are not the parents of Juan Fernandez Estrada. Part of the limpieza is correct. Juan Fernandez Estrada is ““the second son of the House of Estrada, who came from Asturias to Ciudad Real”. But neither of his two wives is named Luisa, Luisa is his daughter. Another mistake in the limpieza is the surname of Juan’s second wife. Her surname is not Oliver, it is Ulloa. Manny already pointed out another mistake in the purported family tree on the Gutierrez Cavalleria side of the family.

For those that don’t believe me, but insist that the limpiezas provide the correct genealogy, I have a book for sale that is an “antique” in pristine condition that purports to provide evidence of his ancestry due to the limpiezas. It would be a great addition to any library of someone that believes in the limpieza.

Rick A. Riccii
Source: book Mygenes2000

Dear Manny,

I owe you big time for the many times that you have helped me with my research. And this is another great find by you. However, I disagree that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father.

The genealogy that he was the son of The king seemed like a legend to me also. I even bought an original copy of the book that refutes that he was son of the king. Over the years I repeatedly stated that Juan Fernandez De Estrada was his father based on the argument put forward by this book. The problem is that when I researched the issue I discovered that it has some false information. This second genealogy that you found is based on the “ made up family tree “ that tried to hide that his mother was a mistress of the king. Her having an illegitimate child was an embarrassment to her family. Later on the family tried to hide its Jewish origins.

If juan Fernandez De Estrada is proven to be his father then this very old “book” that I have is worth some money. It is an original book and is in great shape even though it is not a hard cover book. So if Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father I stand to make some money. There are only few copies of this book. Not only is it one of a few, I most likely have the one that is in the best condition since it does not have any folds or damage. The paper and ink used is proof of it being an original. It is in pristine condition.

Financially it would be great for me that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father, because then I would not feel guilty selling this book.

The Estrada family came from family with mixed old Christian and conversó ancestry. They were associated with the king. Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather was close to the king and a favorite of his. A member of the family married a distant cousin (not to distant as she descended from a brother of king Enrique Ii). The family was well paid. But the Kings favorite of the family was his illegitimate son, Alonso Estrada, that he had with the daughter of his friend. As the son of the king, Alonso was provided with a large annual salary, almost double the salary that was given to Hernan Cortez. This salary was large because he was the kings illegitimate son, and not because he was a treasurer. The other treasurers of the king did not receive anything near his salary.

Rick A. Ricci