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Por Welester |

Hello everybody,

I am looking for the parents of Alvaro Carrilo from Teocaltiche , Jalisco he married Maria Alvarez de Sandi , daughter of Capitan Lorenzo Alvarez and Agustina de Viera ( velados ) March 4, 1585 in Lagos de Moreno , Jalisco .

Any and all info will be greatly appreciated .

Welester G. Alvarado and Arq. Jose Francisco Garza Carrillo

Welester,

I still don't know who the parents of Alvaro Carrillo were but I'm working on it. Here is some of the information I found so far:

On page 94 of his book "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara, Tomo I" Guillermo Garmendia Leal states that Ana Alvarez de Sandi, wife of Hernan Flores de la Torre, was the daughter of Alvaro Carrillo and Maria Alvarez de Sandi. He also says that María Alvarez de Sandi was the daughter of Capt. Lorenzo Alvarez, "uno de los conquistadores deste reyno." I also found the record for the wedding of Capt. Lorenzo Alvarez and Agustina de Viera, which took place at the catholic church in Santa Maria de los Lagos March 4, 1585. You can find the record in LDS Film #0221879 Matrimonios 1583-1590 and 1605-1638 Santa María de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, México.

What puzzles me is that in his final will and testament, filed in Juchipila on 12 October 1645, Hernan Flores declared "Soy casado con Ana de Sandi, hija legitima de Alvaro Carrillo de Sandi, natural de la villa de los Lagos". This statement can be found on page 91 of Garmendia Leal's book.

It seems to me that the correct name for Alvaro Carrillo should be Alvaro Carrillo de Sandi, and that the correct name for his wife should be Maria Alvarez de Viera. I have found many records of people with the compounded surname Carrillo-de-Sandi, including Maria Carrillo de Sandi, born ca. 1600 and married to Juan Marin de Peñaloza from Teocaltiche. And as far as María Alvarez is concerned, she had a brother named Juan Alvarez y Viera who married Beatriz Tostado. They are the originators of the well known Alvarez-Tostado surname from Teocaltiche.

Do you have any information to clear up the name?

Bill Figueroa

thanks to all who put Rincon back in the state it belonged in Aguascalientes... How about San Jose de la Yslas?  Is that in Zacatecas?
 
Linda in B.C.

Welester,

I still don't know who the parents of Alvaro Carrillo were but I'm working
on it. Here is some of the information I found so far:

On page 94 of his book "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara, Tomo I"
Guillermo Garmendia Leal states that Ana Alvarez de Sandi, wife of Hernan
Flores de la Torre, was the daughter of Alvaro Carrillo and Maria Alvarez de
Sandi. He also says that María Alvarez de Sandi was the daughter of Capt.
Lorenzo Alvarez, "uno de los conquistadores deste reyno." I also found the
record for the wedding of Capt. Lorenzo Alvarez and Agustina de Viera, which
took place at the catholic church in Santa Maria de los Lagos March 4, 1585.
You can find the record in LDS Film #0221879 Matrimonios 1583-1590 and
1605-1638 Santa María de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, México.

What puzzles me is that in his final will and testament, filed in Juchipila
on 12 October 1645, Hernan Flores declared "Soy casado con Ana de Sandi,
hija legitima de Alvaro Carrillo de Sandi, natural de la villa de los
Lagos". This statement can be found on page 91 of Garmendia Leal's book.

It seems to me that the correct name for Alvaro Carrillo should be Alvaro
Carrillo de Sandi, and that the correct name for his wife should be Maria
Alvarez de Viera. I have found many records of people with the compounded
surname Carrillo-de-Sandi, including Maria Carrillo de Sandi, born ca. 1600
and married to Juan Marin de Peñaloza from Teocaltiche. And as far as María
Alvarez is concerned, she had a brother named Juan Alvarez y Viera who
married Beatriz Tostado. They are the originators of the well known
Alvarez-Tostado surname from Teocaltiche.

Do you have any information to clear up the name?

Bill Figueroa

Jumpin g Johosaphat Bill ,

Thanks for the quick response , I'm dialling the Arqui. right now . He's the gentleman who compiled the book on the marraiges of Monterrey , Mexico . Arq. Jose Francisco Garza Carrillo . I've just returned from one of his homes in Mina , Nuevo Leon .

I'll pass on all this info and will get back to you or better yet , is it ok to give him your e-mail address ?

Let me know ,
Thanx again ,
Welester

> Welester,> > I still don't know who the parents of Alvaro Carrillo were but I'm working > on it. Here is some of the information I found so far:> > On page 94 of his book "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara, Tomo I" > Guillermo Garmendia Leal states that Ana Alvarez de Sandi, wife of Hernan > Flores de la Torre, was the daughter of Alvaro Carrillo and Maria Alvarez de > Sandi. He also says that María Alvarez de Sandi was the daughter of Capt. > Lorenzo Alvarez, "uno de los conquistadores deste reyno." I also found the > record for the wedding of Capt. Lorenzo Alvarez and Agustina de Viera, which > took place at the catholic church in Santa Maria de los Lagos March 4, 1585. > You can find the record in LDS Film #0221879 Matrimonios 1583-1590 and > 1605-1638 Santa María de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, México.> > What puzzles me is that in his final will and testament, filed in Juchipila > on 12 October 1645, Hernan Flores declared "Soy casado con Ana de Sandi, > hija legitima de Alvaro Carrillo de Sandi, natural de la villa de los > Lagos". This statement can be found on page 91 of Garmendia Leal's book.> > It seems to me that the correct name for Alvaro Carrillo should be Alvaro > Carrillo de Sandi, and that the correct name for his wife should be Maria > Alvarez de Viera. I have found many records of people with the compounded > surname Carrillo-de-Sandi, including Maria Carrillo de Sandi, born ca. 1600 > and married to Juan Marin de Peñaloza from Teocaltiche. And as far as María > Alvarez is concerned, she had a brother named Juan Alvarez y Viera who > married Beatriz Tostado. They are the originators of the well known > Alvarez-Tostado surname from Teocaltiche.> > Do you have any information to clear up the name?> > Bill Figueroa
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Lester,

That will be fine. You can give him my email address for quick direct
communications.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lester Alvarado"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 7:29 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: Alvaro Carrillo

Bill,

Thanks for the quick response, I'm dialling the Arqui. right now . He's the
gentleman who compiled the book on the marriages of Monterrey, Mexico. Arq.
Jose Francisco Garza Carrillo. I've just returned from one of his homes in
Mina, Nuevo Leon.

I'll pass on all this info and will get back to you or better yet, is it ok
to give him your e-mail address ?

Let me know.
Thanx again,
Welester

Ruben,

That's what makes it so confusing. There is no consistency in the way
people's names were spelled in the XVI and XVII centuries. For example,
Fernando Flores de la Torre is referred to as Hernan or Hernando Flores de
la Torre in most documents, and his wife as Ana Carrillo de Sandi. I am
researching these families and recently discovered important documents about
them in the Archivo Historico del Estado de Jalisco. One of these
documents, which I will transcribe in the future, gives important
information about the early settlers of Santa Maria de los Lagos and the
surrounding area.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: Alvaro Carrillo

Bill,

My records show Fernando Flores de la Torre being married to Ana de Sandi y
Carillo.

Ruben Hernandez

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Figueroa"

Welester,

I still don't know who the parents of Alvaro Carrillo were but I'm working
on it. Here is some of the information I found so far:

On page 94 of his book "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara, Tomo I"
>> Guillermo Garmendia Leal states that Ana Alvarez de Sandi...

The evolution of Spanish from the original Latin is a fascinating topic.
Here is the first page of an interesting article describing the shift in
Spanish from the original Latin "f" to the modern-day silent "h."

http://www.jstor.org/pss/342575

Unfortunately, the link only exposes the first page of the scholarly
article, but it should help people understand why the "confusion." Those
Spanish speakers who know Italian or Portuguese will already be aware of
this evolutionary change, since in large part those languages have retained
the Latin "f," such as in filho (hijo) or farina (harina). When researching
in the transitional centuries, it is probably wise to search for both
possible spellings of names, such as Fernando/Hernan(do), or as this article
suggests, the possibility that the initial consonant was completely dropped
after the f-h shift.

Karr Wolfe Romo

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Figueroa
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:54 AM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: Alvaro Carrillo

Ruben,

That's what makes it so confusing. There is no consistency in the way
people's names were spelled in the XVI and XVII centuries. For example,
Fernando Flores de la Torre is referred to as Hernan or Hernando Flores de
la Torre in most documents, and his wife as Ana Carrillo de Sandi. I am
researching these families and recently discovered important documents about

them in the Archivo Historico del Estado de Jalisco. One of these
documents, which I will transcribe in the future, gives important
information about the early settlers of Santa Maria de los Lagos and the
surrounding area.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: Alvaro Carrillo

Bill,

My records show Fernando Flores de la Torre being married to Ana de Sandi y
Carillo.

Ruben Hernandez

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Figueroa"

Welester,

I still don't know who the parents of Alvaro Carrillo were but I'm working
on it. Here is some of the information I found so far:

On page 94 of his book "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara, Tomo I"
>> Guillermo Garmendia Leal states that Ana Alvarez de Sandi...

Thank you, Karr. It is interesting to see how Spanish evolved into the
wonderful language it is today. I feel very lucky to have access to the
excellent records kept by the Catholic Church. I visit a local Family
History Center in my hometown every week, and have been through more than
fifty microfilms since I started five years ago. Without them and the
associated online databases I would not have been able to go this far.
Having said that, I must tell you that I find transcription and indexing
errors every day, some bigger than others. For example, I recently reported
an indexing problem to the LDS Library in SLC that I discovered while
visiting Aguascalientes last February. I hope they take action.
Unfortunately, there is no easy mechanism to report errors online. I am a
firm believer that all genealogical information found in books and/or the
internet must be verified. I used to provide navigation quality control
services for the major oil companies, and my motto always was "Trust but
Verify". I apply the same to Genealogy.

Bill Figueroa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karr Wolfe"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: Alvaro Carrillo

The evolution of Spanish from the original Latin is a fascinating topic.
Here is the first page of an interesting article describing the shift in
Spanish from the original Latin "f" to the modern-day silent "h."

http://www.jstor.org/pss/342575

Unfortunately, the link only exposes the first page of the scholarly
article, but it should help people understand why the "confusion." Those
Spanish speakers who know Italian or Portuguese will already be aware of
this evolutionary change, since in large part those languages have
retained the Latin "f," such as in filho (hijo) or farina (harina). When
researchingin the transitional centuries, it is probably wise to search for
both
possible spellings of names, such as Fernando/Hernan(do), or as this
article suggests, the possibility that the initial consonant was completely
dropped after the f-h shift.

Karr Wolfe Romo

Hi Bill ,

It's me Welester , I have to agree on your outlook on books and the www I've found lots of mistakes and have also found that people take it for granted that it's been researched and or documented .

I've gone to book presentations here in Monterrey , Mexico and was mildly shocked ( I say mildly now because nothing surprises me anymore ) to browse through the books only to find mistakes blatant ones' at that .

I think we should use that as our motto :

TRUST , BUT VERIFY !

I like that .
Bill , anymore news on Alvaro ?

Welester

> Thank you, Karr. It is interesting to see how Spanish evolved into the> wonderful language it is today. I feel very lucky to have access to the> excellent records kept by the Catholic Church. I visit a local Family> History Center in my hometown every week, and have been through more than> fifty microfilms since I started five years ago. Without them and the> associated online databases I would not have been able to go this far.> Having said that, I must tell you that I find transcription and indexing> errors every day, some bigger than others. For example, I recently reported> an indexing problem to the LDS Library in SLC that I discovered while> visiting Aguascalientes last February. I hope they take action.> Unfortunately, there is no easy mechanism to report errors online. I am a> firm believer that all genealogical information found in books and/or the> internet must be verified. I used to provide navigation quality control> services for the major oil companies, and my
motto always was "Trust but> Verify". I apply the same to Genealogy.> > Bill Figueroa>
_________________________________________________________________
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Lester,

I have been communicating directly with Arq. José Garza Carrillo. My last email included the following information about Alvaro Carrillo:

"Hace poco mas de un año estuve buscando documentos sobre tierras mercedadas en la Jurisdicción de Santa María de los Lagos, Jalisco. Encontré uno en Tierras y Aguas del cual extraje algunos datos que pienso publicar mas tarde. Por ahora puedo confirmarte que efectivamente se menciona a Alvaro Carrillo, a su hija Isabel de Sandi y al esposo de ésta Antonio Jiménez. En unos renglones dice lo siguiente:

"(...) Otra merced hecha por el Señor Doctor Gerónimo de Orosco, Presidente Gobernador y Capitán General que fué de este Reino, a Alvaro Carrillo, de tres caballerías de tierra, la una que fue de Juan Martín Portugués, la cual jamás labró, y la otra a cabezadas de caballerías de Pedro de Trejo, y la otra a cabezadas del dicho Alvaro Carrillo, tierras que compró de Pedro Hernández Cachan, su fecha en Guadalajara a veinte y dos de noviembre de el año pasado de quinientos y setenta y nueve (...)"

y mas adelante

"(...) en Guadalajara, a tres de octubre del año pasado de seiscientos y treinta y seis una escritura de venta, otorgada por Antonio Ximenez y Doña Isabel de Sandi su mujer en favor del dicho Esteban de Anda Altamirano, de un sitio de estancia para ganado mayor y tres caballerías de tierra, seis leguas poco mas o menos desta villa, en el río que llaman de Santa María, linde con la Estancia de Santa María que es de Hernán Flores de la Torre, el río abajo que es donde están unas paredes viejas, donde estuvo poblado Alvaro Carrillo padre de la dicha Doña Isabel de Sandi y que llaman la Estancia de la Baquería, su fecha de la dicha escritura en esta villa a quince de enero de seiscientos y treinta y un años, del cual dicho sitio y caballerias no parece haberse entregado título, por decir haberse perdido por haberlos pasado a los Reinos de Castilla y haber pertenecido a unas Religiosas de la Ciudad de Arcos, y se vendió con facultad Real en los derechos de todo lo que el parece haber sucedido el dicho Esteban de Anda Altamirano por compras, herencias y otros derechos como de los (ilegible) consta. Y habiéndoles visto y hecho las diligencias necesarias para la evaluación justa de dichas tierras, y midiesen a amojonasen estando en este estado, pareció ante mi el dicho Esteban de Anda Altamirano, y por petición que presentó me hizo relación, diciendo que ese cumplimiento dejo por mi mandato, había presentado los (ilegible) mencionados, y que valiéndose de la merced que su magestad hacía a sus vasallos, dueños de tierras por sus Reales Cédulas, quería componer las que le tocaban, con el agua y nacimiento de ellas, supliéndosele cualquier defecto mayor o menor que en ellas hubiese, y que se le despachase título y nueva merced en forma, y que se le hiciese merced de nuevo de las demasías de tierra que hubiese entre los sitios que le pertenecían, y que por estas gracias serviría a Su Magestad con la cantidad que justa fuese, atendiendo al poco valor de dichas tierras, y dándosele licencia para que en ella pudiese tener ganados mayores y menores, sin que para ello ninguna justicia ordinaria ni de comisión le hiciesen ni a sus herederos sucesores, agravio, vejación ni molestia (...)
Con base en esto he deducido que

1.. Alvaro Carrillo vivía en la región en 1579 cuando el Dr. Gerónimo de Orosco le otorgó la merced de tierras mencionada anteriormente, ubicada en las inmediaciones de Santa María de los Lagos.

2.. Su hija Ana Carrillo de Sandi, mejor conocida como Ana de Sandi y a veces como Ana Alvarez de Sandi, casó con Hernán Flores de la Torre, su vecino y dueño de la Estancia de Santa María. Hernán Flores de la Torre nació por el año de 1573 y falleció por 1645, cuando otorgó testamento en Teocaltiche.

3.. Su hija Isabel Carrillo de Sandi, mejor conocida como Isabel de Sandi o Isabel Alvarez, casó con Antonio Jiménez, también vecino y dueño de la Estancia de la Vaquería."

Bill Figueroa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lester Alvarado"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:12 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Alvaro Carrillo - att: Bill F.

Hi Bill ,

It's me Welester, I have to agree on your outlook on books and the www I've found lots of mistakes and have also found that people take it for granted that it's been researched and or documented .

I've gone to book presentations here in Monterrey, Mexico and was mildly shocked ( I say mildly now because nothing surprises me anymore ) to browse through the books only to find mistakes blatant ones' at that .

I think we should use that as our motto :

TRUST BUT VERIFY !

I like that .
Bill , anymore news on Alvaro ?

Welester

Hello Erlinda,

San José de la Islas is in Zacatecas, today. But at certain times it
was considered part of Aguascalientes. They went back and forth. And
the parroquial boundaries also changed. Same is true of many regions
bordering the modern state of Aguascalientes. If I'm not mistaken,
that includes municipalidades like Jalpa, Juchipila, Ojocaliente,
Huejúcar. And earlier, all of the region was considered part of the
jurisdiction of Guadalajara. Also, areas of Aguascalientes were at
certain times part of Zacatecas, Jalisco, or Guadalajara.

On the parroquial level, San José de la Isla was of the
Diocesis of Zacatecas from 1862 to about 1899
Diocesis of Aguascalientes from 1899 to the present.
Diocesis of Guadalajara off and on since about 1850.
Early censuses (1792?) put it in Aguascalientes I think.

Politically, Aguascalientes was a provincia of Jalisco from 1621 to
about 1741, an Alcaldía Mayor in Nueva Galicia about 1742-1786,
1787-1811 a partido with Juchipila of Guadalajara ... Someone with a
better knowledge of history can surely help here.

It is hard to pinpoint the dates of these boundary changes, but I have
attempted to do so using as a reference the Diccionario Geográfico,
Histórico y Biográfico de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos by Antonio
García Cubas, publ 1888-1891 which I have downloaded in its entirety
from COLMEX after unsuccessful attempts to find a copy, and Lyman
Platt's Mexico Political Divisions and Mexico Eccliastical Divisions,
which took me more than a year to track down.

I say, I have attempted to date the boundaries, but I haven't been all
that successful, except to get a general idea of what was where during
different time periods. Frankly, I'm still a little confused, and if
someone corrects me I won't be offended. Then I try to find the places
on Google Earth and discover that there are a great many new places
with the same names as the old ranchos and haciendas, and some of them
you can be pretty sure are the same places and others are impossible
to tell.

Monday, September 15, 2008, 3:16:06 PM, you wrote:

> thanks to all who put Rincon back in the state it belonged in
> Aguascalientes... How about San Jose de la Yslas? Is that in Zacatecas?
>
> Linda in B.C.

>

Stuart, thank you for taking the time to share the information so I guess the bottom line would be what time in history to record refers to..
 
thanks again, Linda in Everett

--- On Sun, 3/1/09, Stuart Armstrong wrote:

From: Stuart Armstrong
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] thank you
To: "Erlinda Castanon-Long"
Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 9:15 AM

Hello Erlinda,

San José de la Islas is in Zacatecas, today. But at certain times it
was considered part of Aguascalientes. They went back and forth. And
the parroquial boundaries also changed. Same is true of many regions
bordering the modern state of Aguascalientes. If I'm not mistaken,
that includes municipalidades like Jalpa, Juchipila, Ojocaliente,
Huejúcar. And earlier, all of the region was considered part of the
jurisdiction of Guadalajara. Also, areas of Aguascalientes were at
certain times part of Zacatecas, Jalisco, or Guadalajara.

On the parroquial level, San José de la Isla was of the
Diocesis of Zacatecas from 1862 to about 1899
Diocesis of Aguascalientes from 1899 to the present.
Diocesis of Guadalajara off and on since about 1850.
Early censuses (1792?) put it in Aguascalientes I think.

Politically, Aguascalientes was a provincia of Jalisco from 1621 to
about 1741, an Alcaldía Mayor in Nueva Galicia about 1742-1786,
1787-1811 a partido with Juchipila of Guadalajara ... Someone with a
better knowledge of history can surely help here.

It is hard to pinpoint the dates of these boundary changes, but I have
attempted to do so using as a reference the Diccionario Geográfico,
Histórico y Biográfico de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos by Antonio
García Cubas, publ 1888-1891 which I have downloaded in its entirety
from COLMEX after unsuccessful attempts to find a copy, and Lyman
Platt's Mexico Political Divisions and Mexico Eccliastical Divisions,
which took me more than a year to track down.

I say, I have attempted to date the boundaries, but I haven't been all
that successful, except to get a general idea of what was where during
different time periods. Frankly, I'm still a little confused, and if
someone corrects me I won't be offended. Then I try to find the places
on Google Earth and discover that there are a great many new places
with the same names as the old ranchos and haciendas, and some of them
you can be pretty sure are the same places and others are impossible
to tell.

Monday, September 15, 2008, 3:16:06 PM, you wrote:

> thanks to all who put Rincon back in the state it belonged in
> Aguascalientes... How about San Jose de la Yslas? Is that in Zacatecas?
>
> Linda in B.C.

>

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