George,

I remember noticing this in many death records, many of my ancestors had no distinction as entierro menor or entierro mayor, but my 5th great grandmother Maria de los Dolores Martinez de Sotomayor y Lopez Valdes had an entierro mayor which had sparked initial interest to find out more about it.

Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino

That was my understanding, too.   

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, Emilie Garcia wrote:

From: Emilie Garcia
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 9:31 PM

I always thought "de limosna" meant that the sacrament was given "out of charity"  or alms for the poor.  I think the rich people always gave donations, but the poor people couldn't. 

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:40:33 -0700
> From: dpdelgado@jps.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
>
> George,
>
> The phrase "entierro menor" denotes a type of liturgy or rite associated with a church burial. The word "fabrica" [accent on 'a'] refers to a church building fund. The rest of the phrase refers to the money of the day. Could "se" be the word "de"?, if not then the "se" doesn't make sense syntactically. All the clergy I have met over the years resist the notion of "charging" for the 'services' they provide. The phrase you noted is more of a personal note than sentence.
>
> David Delgado
> Albany, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: gpf13@aol.com
> >Sent: Mar 17, 2012 10:40 AM
> >To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
> >
> >I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".
> >
> >Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.
> >
> >When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.
> >
> >Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.
> >
> >George Fulton

George,

I discussed "de limosna" with my husband, and he told me about some of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation in Europe. One was "simony", the practice of "selling tickets" out of purgatory to insure Heaven. Also, dukes could even buy the Papacy without even having been priests first. Ex-communication was also a threat held over the heads of people who opposed certain practices. People felt the Church really could condemn your soul to purgatory and brand you an infidel.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gpf13@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:04:34 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Terminology
>
> David
>
> Thanks for the reply. I took another look at the records, and the actual language varies slightly from one record to another. I may have copied the phrase incorrectly. The whole phrase most often is something like "di sepultura eccca [note: there are 3 c's in the abbreviation] con entierro menor en fabrica seis pesos seis reales". This particular record is on image 287, Asientos Defunciones 1785/98, and is the record for Bernardo Francisco Padilla.
>
> The peso, in the 18th century, was a large silver coin comprised of 8 reales (so-called "piece of eight"; our dollar is based on this coin). Six pesos 6 reales seems to be a significant amount of money, although I have nothing on which to base the purchasing power of the peso.
>
> As I recall, one of the things that drove Benito Juarez's reforms concerning the Church in 1857 were the expenses associated with the sacraments.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA

Alicia,

I found the following definition of the phrase on p. 438 of the Real Academia's dictionary, 1956 edition: "derechos de fabrica: rentas o derechos que se cobran en las iglesias por ciertos actos, como bautizos, entieros y otros, que sirven para repararlas o para costear los gastos del culto"... Earlier in the full page discussion you see that the word "derechos" is used in the sense of a monetary entitlement. Of course you know that "causo" means that someone paid the costs. Some locations use the phrase without using "derechos" but the meaning is the same.

I hope this is helpful to you.

David Delgado
Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
>From: alliecar@pacbell.net
>Sent: Mar 27, 2012 3:14 AM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Burial Terminology
>
>To follow up on previous comments about defunciones or death records, I have been finding in Nochistlan, film # 226940 where it says and I quote, "Causo derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales. It was entierro humilde or humble burial but I still don't understand what it means when it says "Causo derechos a la fabrica" Does anyone out there know?
>
>En comentarios anteriores alguien pregunto el significado de la frase "Cause derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales"
>
>Gracias,
>Alicia