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By PappyRod |

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15187-51967-43?cc=1804458&wc…

(1st record on the 2nd page)

Although I'm getting a little better reading these records, I'm still not where I would like to be.

I believe this links to the Baptism of Bartolo Luna (07Feb1668), sister to my 7th GGM - Cecelia Luna. Can anyone read the surname of the his mother - Lorenza _________? The father's name is also Bartolo.

I would also like to connect with anyone else who descends from this line.

Thanks in advance,
Roy

I´ll translate what I think is the most important part

............."lorenza de Aro being married to Martin Tello had a daughter
called Maria Tello,her daughter Francisca de Castro is the mother of
Manuel de Abila, father of the groom.
The same Lorenza married for 2nd time with Bartolome Luna their daughter is
Nicolasa Luna, her daughter is Isabel Orozco the mother of Pablo Nava who
was the husband of the bride

I hope that is enough for you

On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 4:37 PM, wrote:

> I believe we can find our answer in this 1749 Dispensia if someone can
> translate it for us gringos..
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1-18403-64500-86?**
> cc=1874591&wc=M99L-K31:**n1488078655

Thanks to Patty Haro for the translation, we can put together this tronco:

Lorenza de Aro

con Martin Tello
Maria Tello (con Rodrigo Castro)
Francisca Castro (con Juan de Avila)
Manuel de Avila (con Maria Rosa de Llamas)
Manuel del Avila jr. (GROOM)

con Bartholome de Luna
Nicolasa de Luna (con Nicolas Orozco)
Isabel Orozco (con Matheo Nabas)
Pablo Nava (con Angela Godina)
Angela Godina (BRIDE) (widow of Pablo Nava)

Roy,
Arturo Ramos y otros pudieran dar mejor cuenta pero, esto es algo ya investigado que sigue consumiendo esfuerzos por la falta de una base de datos con ligas a los documentos y/o notas que respalden las entradas.
Los árboles genealógicos hasta ahora verificados y respaldados con sus ligas deberían empezar a integrarse, articularse digitalmente, en un gran proyecto colegiado y familiar (haciendo realidad aquello de llamarnos 'primos').
Www.nuestrosranchos.org y www.guadalajaradispensas.com son un buen ejemplo de proyectos de colaboración exitosos entre particulares.
Hace falta dar un paso más para no duplicar esfuerzos.
Éxito en tus búsquedas.
Luis
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: rvr_jr@msn.com
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 08:09:07 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Confirmation!
>
> With the great find by Luis, we now know that Lorenza was a widow when she married Bartholome on 08Jan1659.
>
> Here is a link to her first marriage to Martin Tello de Orozco:
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15265-27548-16?cc=1804458&wc…
>
> Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discovery.
> Roy

I will have to look in my records, but I'm pretty sure Lorenza Ortiz de Haro and Bartholome de Luna y Tapia were 3rd cousins.

I will have to look in my records, but I'm pretty sure Lorenza Ortiz de Haro and Bartholome de Luna y Tapia were 3rd cousins. Thanks to everyone who is participating in this thread...great discussion.

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mendezdetorres

11 years 2 months ago

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Roy,

I have this record, I have not linked it with anyone yet, but I believe it to be the same woman. In the baptismal records for Tlatenango, we find a Agustina baptized 18 May 1652 daughter of Martín Tello de Orozco and Lorenza Ortiz de Haro. I have been wondering if the two Lorenzas are the same person. Could Lorenza have fistly married Martín and then Bartolome de Luna y Tapia? I hope someone can contribute to this topic.

Saludos,
Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino

Daniel, Roy y demás:
Pienso que es la misma persona, Lorenza Ortiz de Haro y Bocanegra.
Con Martín Tello de Orozco, hijo de Francisco Tello de Orosco y Ana de Carbajal y Figueroa, tuvo a Josepha , Cecilia, Sebastiana, María y Agustina. Posteriormente, con Bartolomé de Luna y Tapia tuvo a Antonio, Thomas, Francisca, Nicolasa, Bartolo y Brígida.
Lorenza, al primero de sus hijos, Josepha, lo tiene cuando su edad es 16 años; al último, Brígida, cuando recién cumple los 39 años.
Les deseo éxito en sus búsquedas.
Luis
PD: un saludo, Daniel, dondequiera que te encuentres.

> From: mendezdetorres@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 07:35:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolo Luna Baptism question...
>
>
> Roy,
>
> I have this record, I have not linked it with anyone yet, but I believe it to be the same woman. In the baptismal records for Tlatenango, we find a Agustina baptized 18 May 1652 daughter of Martín Tello de Orozco and Lorenza Ortiz de Haro. I have been wondering if the two Lorenzas are the same person. Could Lorenza have fistly married Martín and then Bartolome de Luna y Tapia? I hope someone can contribute to this topic.
>
> Saludos,
> Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino
>

Luis,
I have maintained two separate lines for Lorenza, even though the names indicate they are the same person. My concern has been the fact that she would have been 12 years old when first married to Martin Tello de Orozco, and delivered her first baby around her 13th birthday. I know it's not impossible, but...
Here is my timeline:

Lorenza de Haro, b: 17Oct1630 to Hernando de Haro y Miramontes con Cecilia Lopez.

Offspring of Martin Tello de Orozco:
1.Juan Bautista, b: Oct 1643, Baptised: 24 Oct 1643
2.Ana, b: Jun 1645
3.Jusepa, b: May 1647
4.Cicelia, b: Nov 1648
5.Sebastiana, b: Jan 1650
6.Maria, b: Mar 1651
7.Agustina, b: May 1652

Offspring of Bartholome de Luna y Tapia:
1.Antonio, b: Feb 1659
2.Tomas, b: Feb 1661
3.Francisca, b: Mar 1663
4.Nicolasa, b: abt 1664
5.Juan, b: abt 1666
6.Bartolo, b: Feb 1668
7.Brigida, b: Nov 1669
8.Cecelia, b: abt 1671

To be conclusive, we need to see the marriage record to Bartholome which would have referred to Lorenza as the widow of Martin Tello de Orozco. I've been looking, but haven't found it as of today. Since she seem to have been very fertile, it's very likely her marriage to Bartholome would have been sometime in 1658 - nine months prior to the birth of Antonio. (just my thought)

It would mean so many more primos if Lorenza was indeed first married to Martin Tello.

Let's go find it!
Saludos,
Roy

p.s. I just found Sponsor: Bartolome de Luna, unmarried Spaniard on 19 Feb 1657, per Arturo Ramos' book, pg.65.

Roy,
Aquí está lo que buscas:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15265-26258-97?cc=1804458&wc…
Éxito en tus búsquedas.
Luis

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: rvr_jr@msn.com
> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 12:59:19 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] 12 year old mother?
>
> Luis,
> I have maintained two separate lines for Lorenza, even though the names indicate they are the same person. My concern has been the fact that she would have been 12 years old when first married to Martin Tello de Orozco, and delivered her first baby around her 13th birthday. I know it's not impossible, but...
> Here is my timeline:
>
> Lorenza de Haro, b: 17Oct1630 to Hernando de Haro y Miramontes con Cecilia Lopez.
>
> Offspring of Martin Tello de Orozco:
> 1.Juan Bautista, b: Oct 1643, Baptised: 24 Oct 1643
> 2.Ana, b: Jun 1645
> 3.Jusepa, b: May 1647
> 4.Cicelia, b: Nov 1648
> 5.Sebastiana, b: Jan 1650
> 6.Maria, b: Mar 1651
> 7.Agustina, b: May 1652
>
> Offspring of Bartholome de Luna y Tapia:
> 1.Antonio, b: Feb 1659
> 2.Tomas, b: Feb 1661
> 3.Francisca, b: Mar 1663
> 4.Nicolasa, b: abt 1664
> 5.Juan, b: abt 1666
> 6.Bartolo, b: Feb 1668
> 7.Brigida, b: Nov 1669
> 8.Cecelia, b: abt 1671
>
> To be conclusive, we need to see the marriage record to Bartholome which would have referred to Lorenza as the widow of Martin Tello de Orozco. I've been looking, but haven't found it as of today. Since she seem to have been very fertile, it's very likely her marriage to Bartholome would have been sometime in 1658 - nine months prior to the birth of Antonio. (just my thought)
>
> It would mean so many more primos if Lorenza was indeed first married to Martin Tello.
>
> Let's go find it!
> Saludos,
> Roy
>
>

lorenza also had a daughter with bartolome named isabel.

yes occasionally girls under 15 years old did get married. in fact i suspect that one of my ancestors might of been eleven when she got married.

also how to lorenza de haro and bartolome de luna relate to each other

I found this old response from Arturo Ramos Pinedo to the same question...

"Bartholome Luna y Tapia's Ancestors
Submitted by arturoramos on Sun, 2009-04-05 02:56.
Hector:

I am sorry that it took me so long to answer your question about Bartholome de Luna y Tapia's ancestors. I am not certain about this as I do not have definitive documentation, but I am pretty certain that Bartholome's parents were:

Francisco DE LUNA and Maria DE TAPIA

and he had at least two siblings:
Luis LUNA, n. 1624
Ygnacio LUNA TAPIA

The combination of surnames and time period and location, as well as the fact that the marriage dispensation said that his wife was his third cousin, militates toward this being the same person. That would mean that Francisco DE LUNA and Hernando DE HARO were second cousins, so Maria DE HARO Y SAUCEDO and Francisco LUNA's father? had a pair of shared grandparents who were most likely Pedro BOBADILLA and Maria DE SAUCEDO, for whom Hernando DE HARO's mother was named."

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katy_brecht_quesada

11 years 2 months ago

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ok, it's too bad i don't know bartolome's grandparents name, then maybe i could figure out how they relate to each other(since there isn't defenitive proof to who their common ancestor was).

also, i wonder if maria de tapia is related the the alonzo de tapia mentioned in miguel caldera's will.

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katy_brecht_quesada

11 years 2 months ago

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if want i could send you links to some marriage dispensations i found related the lopez de luna lineage. i personally descending from bartolo's sister isabel.

also bartolome's second wife was tomasa olague. tomasa was previously married to a man with the last name ayala. she had a son with that previous spouse , who i also descend from.

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anaareluna

11 years 2 months ago

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Roy, the mothers name is Dona Lorensa, I also descend from this couple I descend from their son Thomas De Luna and His wife Ana Flores De La Torre, do you have more info. on Cecilia?
 
Anna Arellano Luna

________________________________
From: "rvr_jr @msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 5:18 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolo Luna Baptism question...
escen

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15187-51967-43?cc=1804458&wc…

(1st record on the 2nd page)

Although I'm getting a little better reading these records, I'm still not where I would like to be.

I believe this links to the Baptism of Bartolo Luna (07Feb1668), sister to my 7th GGM - Cecelia Luna.  Can anyone read the surname of the his mother - Lorenza _________?  The father's name is also Bartolo.

I would also like to connect with anyone else who descends from this line.

Thanks in advance,
Roy

Hi cousins, I also descend from their daughter Cecilia Lopez de Luna. Anna, If you don't already have Arturo Ramos' Book "Familias Antiguas de Tlaltenango", I highly recommend it. He dedicates a couple of pages to her specifically, and you can piece many parts of her tree using his book. Also, research her ancestor (Beatrice Lopez de Ayala) whose surname she chose to carry instead of Ortiz de San Pedro.

Profile picture for user PappyRod

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PappyRod

11 years 2 months ago

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Please email me at rvr_jr@msn.com and I'll provide you my line back to Bartolome de Luna y Tapia and Lorenza de Haro.

This is great! I'm meeting two more new cousins in one day.

Saludos,
Roy

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Nepomuceno

11 years 2 months ago

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Roy,
Sólo dice Doña Lorenza pero, obviamente debe referirse a Lorenza Ortiz de Haro y Lopes, mujer de Bartolome/Bartolo de Luna. Esta Lorenza fue hermana de Hernando, Pedro, María, Juan y Joseph; todos hijos de Hernando de Haro y Cecilia Lopes.
Y en efecto, el bautizado, Bartolo/Bartolome de Luna fue hermano de Antonio, Thomas, Francisca, Nicolasa, Brigida y Cecilia (Lopes de Luna).
Los padrinos de bautiso de Bartolo fueron Francisco Berumen y Doña Juana de Vera/Vela.
Suerte en tus busquedas.
Luis
PD: excelente libro el de Arturo Ramos, Familias Antiguas de Tlaltenango.
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: rvr_jr@msn.com
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 17:18:48 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolo Luna Baptism question...
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15187-51967-43?cc=1804458&wc…
>
> (1st record on the 2nd page)
>
> Although I'm getting a little better reading these records, I'm still not where I would like to be.
>
> I believe this links to the Baptism of Bartolo Luna (07Feb1668), sister to my 7th GGM - Cecelia Luna. Can anyone read the surname of the his mother - Lorenza _________? The father's name is also Bartolo.
>
> I would also like to connect with anyone else who descends from this line.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Roy

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