Irma, this is a wonderful way of explaining the times and customs. I wonder if the priest even knew during those times what the scribe had written. I've also come to the conclusion that missing grandparents and incorrect ages were more likely because the witness or padrinos were answering questions and they simply didn't know the information especially at baptisms when the mother was not even present since the custom was for her to be in bed for 40 days.

thank you, Linda in Everett

Irma GomezLucero wrote:

As Tomas mentioned--Often people are very poor and can not offer a
donation. This is when they annotated "de limosna."

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Amen,Prima> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:00:56 -0700> From: igomezlucero@csus.edu> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15> > > As Tomas mentioned--Often people are very poor and can not offer a> donation. This is when they annotated "de limosna."> > The Church does NOT charge for "services" or better said charge for> receiving Sacraments. Since the Catholic Church does not make people> tithe any percentage of their wages, nor request W-2 forms of their> congregation, it ran and does run on donations given by people of> whatever they feel they can afford. These donations were/are mainly> collected (collection basket) during Church services. > When receiving sacraments, you give/gave the priest a donation for the> Church which in my experience has NEVER been solicited in Mexico, nor> here in the U.S.A. > > When I was Confirmed in Mexico at the ripe age of 16, I showed up to the> Basilica in San Juan de l
os Lagos (Jalisco) with my mother and> Godmother. The Bishop made his rounds as we accepted the Sacrament of> Confirmation, and he NEVER asked for any donation, nor did I see money> exchange hands. There is NO way he could have annotated who gave and> who didn't either. Maybe in the old days before Independence, these> sacraments were more individualized.... So donations would have been> more apparent? > I have only seen this--de limosna and race annotated before Mexico's> Independence from Spain, and not after. Of course, I've only researched> Los Altos, so I can't speak for other areas. > > "De limosna" meant that the individual(s) were not able to give a> donation pure and simple. I agree that I have run into old records in> my research that "smelled" of racism or disdain, and this saddens me> greatly too. We have to remember that priests are/were human, and that> Mexico is/was a very class conscious society, especially in Los Altos> and especially at this time before the
Independence. > > Irma> Sacramento, CA. > > -----Original Message-----> From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Erlinda> Castanon-Long> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:07 AM> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas> > I'm hoping, like Tomas, that someone can translate the phrase "de> Limosna"> for me. My Spanish is poor but I did understand most of what Tomas> shared and I also have ancestors who were listed as Indio/India> laborio/laboria but don't understand the phrase de Limosna.> > Someone else in the group once said that if you had money then it> didn't matter what your nationality was. I have a line in Jerez> Zacatecas listed in the earlier records as Indio and Indio laborio but> they married "Espanol"> and within 1 generation they were classified as Espanoles. My Indio> Garcia line married into the Caldera line and an Indian was never seen> again.... I
guess the lesson is just like today.. money talks.> > Linda in Everett> > Tom?s Alejandro Villegas G?mez wrote:> En Espa?ol:> ponian al> final de las actas o fes de bautismo o matrimonio las leyenda "Se> Bautizo de Limosna" ose "Caso de limosna", para dejar eso si, la> evidencia de que estos "indios laborios" eran muy pobres.> > ---------------------------------> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try> it now.> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> general(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org&gt; > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 7> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:32:37 -0600> From: "Javier Garbuno" > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas> To: > Message-ID: <007801c88f56$9f43a8b0$4601a8c0@AcerAspire>> Content-Type: text/p
lain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";> reply-type=original> > "Limosna" means charity. When people (poor people) ask in the streets> for some coins they said "Me da mi limosna", "una limosnita por el amor> de Dios".> > Also in the churchs the money they collect in the baskets are "La> limosna"> > "Se cas? / bautiz? de limosna" means they didn?t pay to the church for> those services.> > ----- Original Message -----> From: "Karr Wolfe" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:18 AM> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas> > > Limosna = alms, or dole. Since you are already on the internet, you> might> want to bookmark this online dictionary:> > http://www.tomisimo.org/&gt; > It's free and finds most single words. Unfortunately, it doesn't> recognize> any verb form but the infinitive, and sometimes it fails to find the> plural> forms of words.> > Good luck!> > Karr> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1> >
Thank you Javier, It just occurred to me that this is more than just> learning the meaning of a word, this explains a custom or tradition, I> wonder if it still is recorded that way today in Mexico?> > Linda in Everett> > Javier Garbuno wrote:> "Limosna" means charity. When people (poor people) ask in the streets> for > some coins they said "Me da mi limosna", "una limosnita por el amor de > Dios".> > Also in the churchs the money they collect in the baskets are "La> limosna"> > "Se cas? / bautiz? de limosna" means they didn?t pay to the church for> those > services.> > > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org&gt; > End of General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15> ***************************************> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> general(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org