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Por hijadelcharro |

Hola Primos,
I am sharing some observations and opinions, feel free to comment or not.
•The searching is painstakingly tedious.
Q: Do I hear a no scheisse?
•The church records are as frustrating as they are informative. There are notations by the visiting Bishops to the parish of Nuestra Senora de Los Dolores, where they state their disappointment with the sloppy record keeping by the parish priests. The priests failure to follow the standards for record keeping included failure to register events within a set number of days, so I have found incorrect surnames and genders. They also abbreviated entries omitting maiden names and names of paternal and maternal grandparents, essentially ending any further progress along that family line.
Q: Has anybody else encountered the same problem? Did you overcome it?
•Although the church indexed entries by first name in alphabetical order, starting with the first name, the entry number rarely, if ever, corresponds to the photo image number created by FamilySearch.
Q: Does anybody read the indexes to find a relative?
•Photocopied books are listed by groups of years, but it’s all trial and error trying to find a relative that isn’t already in the Fam.Search system.
Q: Anybody have a simple systematic way to find a relative? (Duh!)
•There are multiple copies of the same data, copies either due to the poor state of the originals or bad penmanship, ?Quien sabe?. It is frustrating to search the same data twice.
Q: No question, just whining.
•The older archaic entries are heavily abbreviated and often lack the year, which you will need to locate in the beginning of the year or month.
Q: Is there a list or a tutorial to help read and translate these archaic entries?
•I’ve noticed there was a lot of emphasis on class, individuals were listed as: Espanoles, Indios, or Mestizos. I know there are about 12 different class names, like Lobo. Some women were listed as Donella, but not all.
Q: Does this mean virgin or is it a class distinction?

For the generations after 1857 have you looked at the civil records at Ancestry.com? While I have not looked at Teocaltiche specifically, the civil records have been indexed with linked images for many, if not all, communities. The birth and marriage records from Teocaltiche go to the 1920s or so, death records go later. My experience has been in Aguascalientes and some parts of Jalisco with some success. The records in the early years of civil registry can be incomplete, but improve with time, the later records being much better.

If you do not have an Ancestry subscription you can get to it at any LDS family history center. Many public libraries have a subscription as well.

As I'm sure you are aware, not all the church records have been extracted/indexed which makes research more tedious.

Best of luck,

George Fulton

welcome to the wonderful world of research. Frustration and joy in finding a record go hand in hand.
Some things come easily with Familysearch, others have to be done page by page.
Errors in surnames and given names happen often but I've found if more than one record shares a name I go with that one.
If a record has no date look at the record before and after then at least you will have the month and year.
Many times a record will be in the wrong section or year so be sure to check other records before and after it.
It takes time to learn the abbreviations.
The church kept track of nationalities but that stopped in the 1820's. Don't take the nationality as fact. I have a family with 5 children listed as Espanol, Indio, Mestiso and Mulato Libre. Don't eliminate a record because you have an Espanol family and you find an Yndio or Mulato record.
Donsella means unmarried or maiden.
I've been researching for 20 years and on occasion I find someone working in the same lines or area and we share research making for wonderful finds. I would also suggest you include your source for information because you may want to go back and read a record again. My Spanish was non-existent when I started so I made many mistakes but with time I've gone back and corrected them with shared records of others.
My research in Jalisco is Zapotlan el Grande and Tamazula. In Zacatecas it's Jerez and the surrounding towns, Tepetongo, Monte Escobedo and now after all these years I find many of them came from Colotlan, Jalisco. That find was with the sharing of another Nuestros Rancho's member Jose Carlos de Leon.
Don't give up but check other sources like Rootsweb.com that is free and Ancestry if you have a membership there
good luck in your search
Linda Castanon-Long

Hola HDC,

Yes, I hate the “dicho dia mes y año” scribes, which requires flipping back the pages, until you can find the month & year. I usually curse when I see them!

I agree, there are a lot of irregularities with the church archives - and errors. I just attribute that to different notaries/scribes/parishes. I have marriage records for ancestors, in which the groom’s mother is placed where the bride’s name should be, and on others, where they give the incorrect names for one set of grandparents. For that reason, it is always best to verify with as much documentation as possible: I simultaneously track all family members in a given family group, since missing info for one sibling might appear on a record of another.

As far as info given, it changed over the years:
- Grandparents’ names don’t appear on baptism & other records until after 1800.
- On earlier marriage records, names of deceased parents are not given.
- On earlier records, surnames of lower-caste women are not given.

In some parishes, the names of the parents of the padrinos are given.

INDEXES

I’ll use the indexes, when I first start working on a line, to locate an ancestor. But there are many parishes that haven’t been indexed. I usually go through each roll of film, flipping through the images, until I locate a familiar name. The benefit of working this way, is I’m able to track my ancestors, when they’re padrinos or testigos on other records. FamilySearch just upgraded their viewers, that allow thumbnail or tiled views of the rolls of film, which is super helpful, as far as finding the ends & beginnings of books. THANK YOU LDS!

CASTAS

Castes vary, depending on location and era, and on the notary or authority documenting the event (who “eyeball” the individuals involved, to determine caste). The caste of each individual is given up to the time of independence (1820), and after that year, individuals are listed as “ciudadanos.” There are various website that give more info, but the primary castes are:

Español peninsular (Europeans born in Europe)
Español criollo (Spaniards born in America)
Mestizo (one Spanish parents, one Indian parent)
Indio (Indigenous)
Mulato Libre * (African Freeman; might have European ancestry)
Mulato Esclavo * (African Slave; might have European ancestry)
Negro Libre (African Freeman)
Negro Esclavo (African Slave)

* “Mulato” was sometimes interchangeable with “Negro,” as far as I can tell.

There are also “subcastes,” depending on the parents ethnicities, and the individual’s assimilation to Spanish/Catholic culture:

Morisco (one Spanish parent, one Mulato parent)
Coyote (one Mestizo parent, One Indio parent)
Lobo (one Indian parent, one Mulato parents)
Tresalbo (3/4 African, 1/4 non-African)

The caste system was an arbitrary and cruel system, but as a researcher, caste designation can help determine the identity of an individual.

EARLY COLONIAL TERMS

Here’s a glossary of Colonial Spanish Terms, which I reference quite a bit:
http://www.somosprimos.com/spanishterms/spanishterms.htm

OTHER TYPES OF DOCUMENTS

There are other types of documents, to help break down brick walls. You likely know of some of these, but for others:

Informacion Matrimonial (“IM”):
The Council of Trent mandated “marriage investigations," in the form of the “Informacion Matrimonial.” Bride & groom are required to present 3 witnesses to attest that they are eligible for marriage. Info given is age, casta, place of birth, current residence, and names of parents.

Dispensas:
Dispensations were given to couples who were related by consanguinity (by blood), or by affinity (by marriage, or an “illicit” relationship), by at least 4 degrees (3rd-cousins). This was to prevent inbreeding (and babies born with tails…). Info given is same as IM, also given is the relationship - family trees.

Padron:
A "padron" was a church census, periodically conducted in parishes. The majority of them only list individuals who have Confessed (age 5+) and received Communion (age 8+). These are super helpful for locating ancestors, and establishing family groups and relationships.

Confradias:
Most parishes had confraternities that helped with church services and did charity work. These can help locate ancestors, and establish family groups and relationships.

Land & Probate Records:
These are more difficult to find online. The LDS site gives access to notary records in the province of Michoacan (which also covers Guanajuato and San Luis Potosi), as well as San Luis Potosi. These archives are difficult to research, but they appear to be mostly in chronological order. I’ve located testamentos, court records (civil & criminal), land & mine registries, bills of sale, “cartas de dote” (dowries), contracts for apprentices, store inventories & diezmas (taxes & tributes), cattle brand registries, and even manumissions of slaves.

Ordenes:
Wealthier families were able to educate their children, some who joined the clergy. Candidates were required to provide their lineage, a “limpieza de sangre,” to prove that they didn’t descend from “Jews, Moors, or other heretics.” Ancestry is given, usually up the to grandparents, sometimes great-grandparents.

Also, check “Files” on the Nuestros Ranchos menu bar. There are many good resources and aids offered there.

I hope that helps!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Manny,
I am amazed at the quantity and quality of your response. Thank you so very much!
I will print this out and keep it as a Reference.
You obviously are quite an experienced researcher. I knew very little of what you have so generously shared with me.
Did you accumulate all this knowledge by experience, or did you have a guide to researching in Mexico?
You don't by chance have relatives in the Teocaltiche, Jalisco area? (That would be a god send.) I do know that most of my ancestors had the misfortune of being buried in pauper graves (limosnia), so I don't know how productive Ordenes and land records will be, still worth a shot.
I use the LDS Familysearch site exclusively, and plan to take a peek at the Informacion Martrimonial entries right now.
I wonder if I need to look them up by the date of the marriage or weeks ahead, as the couple/priest were required to post banns. I'll figure it out.
Once again, you are so kind to share your expertise.

Sincerely,
Elida Gonzalez Dobropolski

Thank you, Elida, that’s’ very kind of you. Nope, no guide books, most of what I know I learned from other NR members, either from collaborating with them, or from reading their threads in the archives. The rest of it, is figuring things out, as I go along.

Yes, the Informacion Matrimonial was done a couple of weeks before the wedding. The archives are in chronological order, for the most part, so start from you wedding date, and work backwards. Each IM is 2-3 images, so you can leap, or use the thumbnail view, to see where the next IM begins. Saves a lot of time.

I do have lines in Teocaltiche, my Gonzalez de Hermosillo’s lived there, from the 1640’s-on. My branch moved away around 1700, so I haven’t done much active research in that parish, after that year. How far back are you, and which families are you working on?

Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Manny,

I've been concentrating on finding individuals as opposed to casting a wide net and seeing what I get. For example, I would go through all the deaths in a given year and search for key surnames (Gonzalez, Tejeda, Aguilera; Moran..) and I came up with several family members. Now I'm trying to find a person in a given window for example, died on 26 August 1902 at age of 6 months, so I look back to Feb. 1901.

I'm stuck in the 1800's so I have no idea about relatives in the 1600 and 1700s. My information is on Familysearch.org, where I contacted a couple of people (primos) but they don't respond feeling perfectly content to merge information into their genealogies without the bother of dealing with distant family.

I use to romanticize my ancestors and now I'm starting to think a lot about that they were only human and since some of their decendant are real hijos de sus madre's, some of them were, too.

I'm also finding branches in Aguascalientes and Zacatecas. My one relative that is listed as Gonzalez Hermosillo is an error, the only time the name Hermosillo shows up is in the marriage record, the other records show the maternal surname as Moran.

I wanted to share a resource, Diccionario de Abreviaturas Novohispanas, but I don't know how to attach it. If you're not already using the site it's: http://www.iifilologicas.unam.mx
(I just found this and I'm not sure how accessible or useful it is.)

My apologies for my ramblings.

Elida

When I have a problem and my thinking is cloudy and overwhelmed then I cast a wide net.
I cast a wide net putting together every tiscareno on Familysearch I could find. I did not succeed. I then went on and concentrated on finding only grandparents of paternal side. I was lucky because of the civil records of San Luis that appeared in Ancestry.com (yes it may cost money but the information can be invaluable as in this case). I had search for more than 18 years. Of course nothing is that easy, it turns out my grandfather's name was guanajuato sometimes and peres other times because of the mistakes made in Villa de Reyes, SLP, Mexico. The records in Villa de Reyes are the worst I have ever encountered with mistakes on surnames. To say that my father has been known as Rodriguez Perez when it should have been Guanajuato. I then cast a wide net and searched for all guanajuatos and found a family that fit perfect except they were twins, both named Mateo. So once I searched tediously again for a record of marriage of mateos there were four marriages but to which one. The first marriages I could separate it was the second or third for one of them that has me overwhelmed and confused.

I was once again overwhelmed with this family and stepped away and went to the one really giving me a big problem. Maria Rosalia Lira (or Alvarado, or Dias) It dawned on me that her child Dorotea Contreras first child was born in Salinas, SLP and so they probably married in Salinas as it was after 1799 date the parish started. I found there marriage record in 1803 and it gave her mother as Maria Josepha Rosalia Lira and Originating from Camarillo. I now have to find where Camarillo is and hope that the records are not kept in two places like Charcas, SLP who also have Concepcion records mixed up as are the years.

Good luck hunting!

Manny,
Just reading about you did and still have to do made MY head hurt!

I believe It takes a special type of individual to research genealogy. Often, when I speak to other people, I get comments like, "I'm really not interested in the past."

In addition, to the Interest, tenacity and problem solving skills, it takes mental gymnastics to analize and synthesize simultaneously. Our version of Luminosity.

What would you suggest to do when there is no mention of a birth in parish or civil records?

Pax

Dear Pax,

I agree with your statement "It takes a special type of individual to research genealogy...In addition to the Interest, tenacity and problem solving skills, it takes mental gymnastics to analyze and synthesize simultaneously."

It is important to remember that though it takes "special types of individuals" that there are many of us that are interested in this work and that through collaboration we can get much more work done. Though I have done my share of genealogy, it has been greatly enhanced by collaborating with others.

Sharing your work, and asking for help when you come up to a brickwall will help with the analysis and synthesizing.

Here is a story about collaboration.

I did a tremendous amount of work on a family line. About five years ago I found two genealogists, one working in Brazil, and the other in Spain, that had also done a lot of work on what I had been researching. They had also spent decades compiling information. They had not collaborated and had worked on separate branches. I realized that my work complemented the work of both gentlemen as mine filled in the pieces that brought their work together forming a giant family tree. Unfortunately one of the genealogists passed away about the time that I had discoverered his work. The other genealogist from Spain is very old and is unsure about making corrections to his work as my research corrects a few of his assumptions..he also may have passed away as he does not return messages. What I have now is a giant family tree made up of the work from the three of us working thousands of miles from each other.

So as you continue to work, remember that others are also working and that your contribution may be the little pieces that are extremely important in putting together a giant family tree.

Rick A. Ricci

Algo que también te puede ayudar mucho es buscando a los Cronistas Municipales. Yo empecé a trabajar hace poco (un año) y lo primero que se topa es la limitante de no saber geografía de la época. Buscar a los Cronistas me ayudo mucho porque me dió a entender muchos datos que no conocía. Ejemplo:
Mecatabasco: el cronista afiliado de Tabasco, Zacatecas, me contó que los libros que existen en FamilySearch son los únicos que hay en la región. Después de que los microfilmaron, el Padre encargado de la Parroquia en los años 1940s , regalo, quemo, tiro el archivo. Así sé, que no voy a encontrar más de lo que está ahí. Además cuando me topo con un rancho que no sé dónde queda le pregunto y me cuenta la historia. Todo esto ayuda cuando no conoces la región. Además es una fuente muy directa de historia y geografía. Como todos nosotros que nos dedicamos a esto, es muy gratificante que alguien te pregunte por tu trabajo. ¿Cómo los contactas? Por facebook, hablando a la Presidencia Municipal, etc.

Otra cuestión con la que me topo es que cuando uno es nuevo en familysearch, no conoces la herramienta. A mí me pasó, no entendía como funcionaba y no podía sacarle provecho. Pregunta a en una Iglesia de Jesucristo… así llegue yo. Me presente y dije ¿alguien me puede ayudar? Me enseñaron trucos, como indexar, donde buscar y cómo, corregir mis datos. Avance en un mes lo que no hice en seis.

Tome unos cursos de Genealogía y Paleografía en Monterrey gracias a la Sociedad Genealógica y de Historia Familiar de México (así aparecen en Facebook). Puedo decirte que son los expertos en la región de Nuevo León, Coahuila, Texas, etc. Ellos también han hecho presentaciones y las tienen en línea como una breve introducción de cómo empezar, dónde buscar y cursos sobre paleografía. Revisen el youtube. Yo me encontré excelentes videos sobre paleografía que me han ayudado mucho.

NUESTROS RANCHOS.COM Esta página es lo mejor!! Gracias a la colaboración de todos mis primos he avanzado mucho con mi investigación. Aprender de los maestros de las grandes ligas que llevan años en este negocio. Sobre todo que para los nuevos como yo es un medio de tomar ventaja de todo lo que saben, sus trucos. Gente que comparte sus índices, sus anotaciones, años enteros de investigación.

Mantente motivada, involucra a más personas. Cuéntale a todos tus hallazgos. Muchas veces he querido aventar la toalla y dejarlo hasta ahí, sobre todo cuando se inicia y no se tiene mucha técnica o herramientas. Me pasaba que siempre algún familiar me hablaba y me preguntaba: ¿Qué más has encontrado? ¿Ya encontraste a …? ¿Siembre dónde nació? Es la motivación más grande.

Por último si decides llevar tu árbol en familysearch, eh aquí dos tips importantes:
1. Marca como favoritos a tus ancestros. Al ser un árbol colectivo, todos podemos meter mano y hacer modificaciones. Tristemente, en la mayoría de los casos siempre te vas a topar con o que te borraron del árbol o lo que se adjunto no fue correcto. Tenerlos marcados te envía una alerta de los modificaciones que se realizan y quien la realiza; así no se pierde la información.
2. Adjunta las imágenes. Esto te ayudar a nunca perder la información y atar muchos cabos sueltos. Mucha información no esta indexada, si lo adjuntas tendrás todo a la mano.

Algo que también te puede ayudar mucho es buscando a los Cronistas Municipales. Yo empecé a trabajar hace poco (un año) y lo primero que se topa es la limitante de no saber geografía de la época. Buscar a los Cronistas me ayudo mucho porque me dió a entender muchos datos que no conocía. Ejemplo:
Mecatabasco: el cronista afiliado de Tabasco, Zacatecas, me contó que los libros que existen en FamilySearch son los únicos que hay en la región. Después de que los microfilmaron, el Padre encargado de la Parroquia en los años 1940s , regalo, quemo, tiro el archivo. Así sé, que no voy a encontrar más de lo que está ahí. Además cuando me topo con un rancho que no sé dónde queda le pregunto y me cuenta la historia. Todo esto ayuda cuando no conoces la región. Además es una fuente muy directa de historia y geografía. Como todos nosotros que nos dedicamos a esto, es muy gratificante que alguien te pregunte por tu trabajo. ¿Cómo los contactas? Por facebook, hablando a la Presidencia Municipal, etc.

Otra cuestión con la que me topo es que cuando uno es nuevo en familysearch, no conoces la herramienta. A mí me pasó, no entendía como funcionaba y no podía sacarle provecho. Pregunta a en una Iglesia de Jesucristo… así llegue yo. Me presente y dije ¿alguien me puede ayudar? Me enseñaron trucos, como indexar, donde buscar y cómo, corregir mis datos. Avance en un mes lo que no hice en seis.

Tome unos cursos de Genealogía y Paleografía en Monterrey gracias a la Sociedad Genealógica y de Historia Familiar de México (así aparecen en Facebook). Puedo decirte que son los expertos en la región de Nuevo León, Coahuila, Texas, etc. Ellos también han hecho presentaciones y las tienen en línea como una breve introducción de cómo empezar, dónde buscar y cursos sobre paleografía. Revisen el youtube. Yo me encontré excelentes videos sobre paleografía que me han ayudado mucho.

NUESTROS RANCHOS.COM Esta página es lo mejor!! Gracias a la colaboración de todos mis primos he avanzado mucho con mi investigación. Aprender de los maestros de las grandes ligas que llevan años en este negocio. Sobre todo que para los nuevos como yo es un medio de tomar ventaja de todo lo que saben, sus trucos. Gente que comparte sus índices, sus anotaciones, años enteros de investigación.

Mantente motivada, involucra a más personas. Cuéntale a todos tus hallazgos. Muchas veces he querido aventar la toalla y dejarlo hasta ahí, sobre todo cuando se inicia y no se tiene mucha técnica o herramientas. Me pasaba que siempre algún familiar me hablaba y me preguntaba: ¿Qué más has encontrado? ¿Ya encontraste a …? ¿Siembre dónde nació? Es la motivación más grande.

Por último si decides llevar tu árbol en familysearch, eh aquí dos tips importantes:
1. Marca como favoritos a tus ancestros. Al ser un árbol colectivo, todos podemos meter mano y hacer modificaciones. Tristemente, en la mayoría de los casos siempre te vas a topar con o que te borraron del árbol o lo que se adjunto no fue correcto. Tenerlos marcados te envía una alerta de los modificaciones que se realizan y quien la realiza; así no se pierde la información.
2. Adjunta las imágenes. Esto te ayudar a nunca perder la información y atar muchos cabos sueltos. Mucha información no esta indexada, si lo adjuntas tendrás todo a la mano.

Linda,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my post. I thought I was being obtuse searching page by page, but now it seems to be par for the course. Hopefully, I can connect with someone who is also interested in the towns mentioned for my relatives. I also find myself having to correct records because I am only now realizing that there is: country, state, region, town, parish,incorporated towns within towns, and neighborhoods. All I was listing was the town.

Cheers,

Elida Gonzalez Dobropolski

History, Culture and General Discussion