Juan Jose, dispensa que no lei tu mensaje antes de mandar el mio.? Muchas gracias por preguntarle a tu familia.? Si me pudieras conseguir los numeros de telefono de esos senores seria muy agradecida.?

Gracias,
Marisela Quezada

-----Original Message-----
From: general-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 4:14 pm
Subject: General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 16

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Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
DAILY DIGEST
****************************************

Today's Topics:

1. Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n, Jalisco (jjramirezi)
2. RE: Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n, Jalisco
(Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez)
3. Re: De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15
(Irma GomezLucero)
4. Re: De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15 (Ronald Reynoso)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:06:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: jjramirezi
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n,
Jalisco
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Estimado Jorge:

De acuerdo a lo comentado, el fin de semana pasado estuve en Jalostotitl?n y
platicando con algunas personas me confirmaron que no existe un archivo
historico como tal, unicamente el archivo parroquial.

Tambien me recomendaron contactar a dos historiadores de Jalos: Jose Antonio
Gutierrez y Jose Trinidad Padilla Lozano. El primero vive en Aguas y el otro en
Guadalajara, ya que ellos han tenido acceso a archivos de particulares para la
realizacion de sus libros y nos pudieran orientar.

Espero que en un par de semanas a mas tardar me consigan los numeros telefonicos
de Don To?o y Don Trino ya sea que quieras hablar directamente con ellos o que
yo te consiga la informaci?n, como t? gustes.

Saludos a todos

Juan Jos? Ram?rez Ibarra
San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:06:18 -0600
From: Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n,
Jalisco
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

_________________________________________________________________
Por ser usuario de Hotmail, ya tienes un Space ?Aprov?chalo!
http://home.services.spaces.live.com/

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:00:56 -0700
From: "Irma GomezLucero"
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26,
Issue 15
To:
Message-ID:
<52B914D66FE6974A952ECCACE81B364201BCB11D@libmail1.libad.csus.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As Tomas mentioned--Often people are very poor and can not offer a
donation. This is when they annotated "de limosna."

The Church does NOT charge for "services" or better said charge for
receiving Sacraments. Since the Catholic Church does not make people
tithe any percentage of their wages, nor request W-2 forms of their
congregation, it ran and does run on donations given by people of
whatever they feel they can afford. These donations were/are mainly
collected (collection basket) during Church services.
When receiving sacraments, you give/gave the priest a donation for the
Church which in my experience has NEVER been solicited in Mexico, nor
here in the U.S.A.

When I was Confirmed in Mexico at the ripe age of 16, I showed up to the
Basilica in San Juan de los Lagos (Jalisco) with my mother and
Godmother. The Bishop made his rounds as we accepted the Sacrament of
Confirmation, and he NEVER asked for any donation, nor did I see money
exchange hands. There is NO way he could have annotated who gave and
who didn't either. Maybe in the old days before Independence, these
sacraments were more individualized.... So donations would have been
more apparent?
I have only seen this--de limosna and race annotated before Mexico's
Independence from Spain, and not after. Of course, I've only researched
Los Altos, so I can't speak for other areas.

"De limosna" meant that the individual(s) were not able to give a
donation pure and simple. I agree that I have run into old records in
my research that "smelled" of racism or disdain, and this saddens me
greatly too. We have to remember that priests are/were human, and that
Mexico is/was a very class conscious society, especially in Los Altos
and especially at this time before the Independence.

Irma
Sacramento, CA.

-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Erlinda
Castanon-Long
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:07 AM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas

I'm hoping, like Tomas, that someone can translate the phrase "de
Limosna"
for me. My Spanish is poor but I did understand most of what Tomas
shared and I also have ancestors who were listed as Indio/India
laborio/laboria but don't understand the phrase de Limosna.

Someone else in the group once said that if you had money then it
didn't matter what your nationality was. I have a line in Jerez
Zacatecas listed in the earlier records as Indio and Indio laborio but
they married "Espanol"
and within 1 generation they were classified as Espanoles. My Indio
Garcia line married into the Caldera line and an Indian was never seen
again.... I guess the lesson is just like today.. money talks.

Linda in Everett

Tom?s Alejandro Villegas G?mez wrote:
En Espa?ol:
ponian al
final de las actas o fes de bautismo o matrimonio las leyenda "Se
Bautizo de Limosna" ose "Caso de limosna", para dejar eso si, la
evidencia de que estos "indios laborios" eran muy pobres.

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