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Since there were "Libro Reservado" and "hijo natural" entries contained within the same book (some on the same page), I would be enclined to believe that the lLibro Reservado obviously refers to the "secret rape and incest" entries. However, there were SO MANY. Honestly, I'd run across one every couple of pages. Could it also be that the children born out of wedlock to lower socio-econmic "commonlaw" couples and single women were simply referred to as hijos naturales, as we see the names of the mother/parents and the abuelos listed and therefore made public. While a child born out of wedlock to upper society, whether as a result of an extra marital affair or both unmarried persons, but of different socio-economic society or races, whose family would want to keep the resulting child a secret. I guess I'd hate to think there was that much incest or rape within one city every year.
Where would one find the Libros Reservados, as anyone could find relatives there. I'm sure it would make interesting reading, indeed. Alice BB
--- arturo.ramos2@gmail.com wrote:
From: arturoramos
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Libro Reservado
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:15:57 -0800 (PST)
There were some priests or parishes that kept separate books for "espanoles" and castas (negros, mulatos, indios). In others, they kept the baptisms separate by whether the children were legitimate or "natural" (out of wedlock).
However, a libro reservado would not refer to either of these. I believe that a libro reservado was the "secret" book where testimony about incest, rape, etc. was kept, which was necessary to make determinations of consanguinity and such, but was not proper to have in the "public" baptism and marriage registers.
I have seen many such "secret dispensations" in the Sagrada Mitra. Had it not been for the Mexican government seizing those documents and allowing LDS to film them, I doubt the Catholic Church would have ever allowed them to be seen by laypeople. Some are quite shocking and/or entertaining. Proof that the old refrain about "back in our time..." is a stretch.
Libro Reservado
Does anyone know if and where the Libro Reservados are available for viewing. I would think there's a good chance that many group members could have family members listed. Thanks so much, Alice BB
--- alicebb@netscape.com wrote:
From: AliceBB
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Libro Reservado
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:15:53 -0800
Since there were "Libro Reservado" and "hijo natural" entries contained within the same book (some on the same page), I would be enclined to believe that the lLibro Reservado obviously refers to the "secret rape and incest" entries. However, there were SO MANY. Honestly, I'd run across one every couple of pages. Could it also be that the children born out of wedlock to lower socio-econmic "commonlaw" couples and single women were simply referred to as hijos naturales, as we see the names of the mother/parents and the abuelos listed and therefore made public. While a child born out of wedlock to upper society, whether as a result of an extra marital affair or both unmarried persons, but of different socio-economic society or races, whose family would want to keep the resulting child a secret. I guess I'd hate to think there was that much incest or rape within one city every year.
Where would one find the Libros Reservados, as anyone could find relatives there. I'm sure it would make interesting reading, indeed. Alice BB
--- arturo.ramos2@gmail.com wrote:
From: arturoramos
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Libro Reservado
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:15:57 -0800 (PST)
There were some priests or parishes that kept separate books for "espanoles" and castas (negros, mulatos, indios). In others, they kept the baptisms separate by whether the children were legitimate or "natural" (out of wedlock).
However, a libro reservado would not refer to either of these. I believe that a libro reservado was the "secret" book where testimony about incest, rape, etc. was kept, which was necessary to make determinations of consanguinity and such, but was not proper to have in the "public" baptism and marriage registers.
I have seen many such "secret dispensations" in the Sagrada Mitra. Had it not been for the Mexican government seizing those documents and allowing LDS to film them, I doubt the Catholic Church would have ever allowed them to be seen by laypeople. Some are quite shocking and/or entertaining. Proof that the old refrain about "back in our time..." is a stretch.