Nuestros Ranchos Site

I just can say how surprising Was for me when I met people From Guatemala, they dont lime mexicans at all and they say mexicans had stolen a part of their territory...

Enviado desde mi iPad

> El 09.08.2015, a las 00:12, research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org escribió:
>
> Send Research mailing list submissions to
> research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.nuestrosranchos.org/listinfo.cgi/research-nuestrosranchos…
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> research-owner@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Research digest..."
>
>
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> DAILY DIGEST
> ****************************************
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Getting History Straight (Alicia Carrillo)
> 2. Getting History Straight (Danny Alonso)
> 3. Re: Getting History Straight (Emilie Garcia)
> 4. Re: Getting History Straight (Emilie Garcia)
> 5. Re: Getting History Straight (Emilie Garcia)
> 6. Re: Libro de Genealogia de (Emilie Garcia)
> 7. Additional info from Miguel Marquez de los Olivos
> (beutelsp@hotmail.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:59:34 -0700
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Getting History Straight
> Message-ID:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Danny,
>
> You'll have lots of support along the way with Nuestros Ranchos. Join your
> local Latino Genealogical Society wherever you live, it helps to have face
> to face contact with other people with similar areas of research. It's a
> great opportunity to bounce ideas off of people and to have others assist
> you along the way.......where do you live?
>
> Alicia,
> San Jose, Ca
>
>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Danny Alonso wrote:
>>
>> Thank You Mr. Hernandez and Alicia and Christopher for your advice and for
>> the books to check out. I will go to the library and start looking for all
>> of them. I already learned more since joining the Nuestros Ranchos Forum
>> than I have in high school.
>>
>> Danny C. Alonso

Thank you Emilie and Mr. Hernandez. That map is so cool. Only since being a
part of the Nuestros Ranchos Forum did I know that Mexico once owned so
much of America. We were once supposed to talk about The Alamo in our
textbook but the teacher skipped it to talk more about the civil war.

Danny C. Alonso

Thank you Alicia, I don't know if theres a genealogical society in my town
but maybe. I live in Dublin.

Danny C. Alonso

Thank You Mr. Hernandez and Alicia and Christopher for your advice and for
the books to check out. I will go to the library and start looking for all
of them. I already learned more since joining the Nuestros Ranchos Forum
than I have in high school.

Danny C. Alonso

Hi Danny,

As a recent High School graduate I can attest that there are many teachers that need to be educated about our culture and history. I took every opportunity to do that while in school, especially as a junior and senior. I know it may be difficult and uncomfortable, but, if you hear something about our history that you know to be incorrect, you should definitely take the time to educate the teachers. Whether, that means bringing in one of the recommended books or printing out an article about our history from SomosPrimos, or just sending the teacher a link that will better educate them. It's especially sad when the teacher ignoring our history or teaching something false about our people, happens to have ancestors from Mexico. I once brought in a stack of articles to educate one such teacher. But, it turned out, she was actually very receptive and used many of those articles in a class discussion the following day. And, remember, every time you learn something new about our history and culture doing genealogical research and as a member of this forum, you can use that knowledge to educate others around you and provide them a true history of our people.

Christopher de Cuellar

Hello

I'll look for that book and I'll try to teach them but sometimes it's hard
after the teacher says they don't believe something and the students only
believe the teacher.

Danny C. Alonso

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

I'm in high school and I never knew any of this and the teachers don't know
about Mexico at all. The only time Mexico ever was mentioned they told us
that Mexico was just Spanish people and Aztec people. I told my teacher
there was lots of tribes and even Aftrican Americans in Mexico and she said
that was silly, just Spanish People and Aztecs.

Danny C. Alonso

My family discover Florida in 1512. The Zambrano were nobleman and worked
with the Ponce the Leon. Hernando de soto with his army march and kill
cannibal tribes all over florida to the mississippi river. After California
was discovered they build the Spanish road. A road that connects all
spanish colonies from florida to texas to new mexico to California. They
never teach this in HIstory class or culture

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago "El Euforia".

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:10 PM, wrote:

>
>
>
> Are your children learning that a Spanish/Latino/creole army and navy ran
> the British out of most of what became the southern U.S. during the
> Revolutionary War? Check their U.S. history books! If the index doesn't
> list ”Galvez” and the “Siege of Pensacola” write your school board!
>
>
> Any book that lists Lafayette but not Galvez is distorting history. IMO.

Hola primos,

I recently discovered that my copy of "Genealogía de Nochistlán antiguo reino de la Nueva Galicia en el siglo XVII según sus archivos parroquiales" by José Luis Vásquez y Rodríguez de Frías is missing. It was stolen.

Suffice it to say, I discovered it was stolen along with a priceless binder of my most treasured certificates and pictures I kept in a large bag. I have gone crazy looking for them but they are gone. This was an act of pure evil.

If anybody here in NR has a "nice" copy "Genealogía de Nochistlán", could we make a deal or make a trade for an out-of-print book from my collection? These are some of the out-of-print books I have in my personal library.

1. "Ameca: Protofundación Mexicana" - Jesús Amaya Topete [1951, 1983]
2. "Los Protocolos de Rodrigo Hernández Cordero, 1585-1591: Escribano público de Guadalajara" - Jorge Palomino y Cañedo [1972]
3. "Genealogical Journal", Volume I [1994], SHHAR press
4. "Genealogical Journal", Volume II [1995], SHHAR press
5. "Genealogical Journal", Volume III [1996], SHHAR press
6. "Genealogical Journal", Volume IV [1998], SHHAR press
7. "Genealogical Journal", Volume V [2003], SHHAR press

I am trying to rebuild what I have lost from the beginning and I am saddened by the scope of it all. Sorry, but I am desperate and I am hoping someone here could help me recover a copy of "Genealogía de Nochistlán". Please, I humbly request your help.

You may contact me at PacoHernandez73@msn.com (or https://www.facebook.com/steven.f.hernandez.5) to make arrangements.

SFHL

Thanks this is going to help me alot once again thank you

That is neat that your a history teacher in Texas. Do the text books mention the time period of Nuevo Espana (Mexico). A Conde of A Hacienda in Zacatecas, Mexico by the name of "Don Fernando De La Campa y Cos (1676 - 1734) had financed expeditions from Zacatecas to Texas where he had paid 70,000 pesos. His youngest daughter "Juliana De La Campa" was married to Capitan Juan Olivan Rebolledo who was elected Governor of Texas in 1723 by the Real Audencia of Guadalajara.

So much for my theory that Juan Briones Colunga was such a rare name. Now that we have gotten the surname order sorted out... There is a Juan Briones Colunga that was born in Zacatecas in 1870... much more likely to be your great-grandfather than the Juan Colunga Briones I sent you earlier:

JUAN COLUNGA BRIONES
Male
Christening: 02 JAN 1870 San Matias, Pinos, Zacatecas, Mexico
Parents:
Father: CRECENCIO COLUNGA
Mother: SERAPIA BRIONES
Source Information:
Batch No.: C606315 Film 1095675

As far as surnames, it was equally common for children to take their mother's surname as to take their father's prior to the 18th Century. Often, the children would even take a grandparent's surname or a prominent townperson's surname to honor them so they would not share either of their parent's surnames.

As Daniel mentions, the choice was often based on which family was more prominent, sort of how the Kennedy women keep their surname even after they get married. Often if both families were prominent, as Daniel mentions, they would combine the surnames and the "composed" surname would continue to be passed on over generation in it composed form.

The Bourbon reforms introduced the mandatory use of both parents' surnames, father's first and mother's second. So from the children's names in your listing, it is clear that the father's first surname was Colunga and so Briones must have been his maternal surname.

Another clue to this being your family is that in Pino, Zacatecas there were a couple of Calzada families having children around the correct time for one of the families to be Josefa's family. She is likely too young to appear in the LDS databases but you may find her on the subsequent films.

1. VICTORIANA CALZADA RUIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 18 DEC 1870 San Matias, Pinos, Zacatecas, Mexico

2. ELIGIA CALZADA NAVA - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 08 DEC 1871 San Matias, Pinos, Zacatecas, Mexico

3. TOMASA CALZADA NAVA - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 09 JAN 1869 San Matias, Pinos, Zacatecas, Mexico

Title Registros parroquiales, 1640-1920
Authors Iglesia Católica. San Matías (Pinos, Zacatecas) (Main Author)

Bautismos de hijos legítimos 1881-1885 FHL INTL Film 1095678
Bautismos de hijos legítimos 1885-1888 FHL INTL Film 1095679
Bautismos de hijos legítimos 1888-1891 FHL INTL Film 1095680

 
I don't know if this is the same family but since Fresnillo is so close to Jerez and this Colunga family is from Guanajuato I thought I'd submit it to you.  My records are posted on Rootsweb.com so you may want to check there for anything that might be of interest to you on the Colunga family in my records.
 
good luck in your search, Linda in Everett Wa.
 

#845 baptism 29 July 1888 in Jerez
 Antonia Colunga born in Jerez 24 July 1888 6pm
parents: Carlos Colunga and Juana Avila
pat grn: Andres and Severiana Lopez
mat grn: Barbaro and Agapita Caldera
pad: Cenovio Gonsales and Francisca Saldivar
source: 0439862 Jerez baptism
 

  MARIA DE LAS NIEVEZ FRANCISCA COLUNGA LOPEZ Pedigree
  Female
  Christening:  06 AUG 1862   Santa Fe, Guanajuato, Guanajuato, Mexico
  Father:  ANDRES COLUNGA  Family
  Mother:  SEVERIANA LOPEZ    
  Source Information:
  Batch No.:  Dates:  Source Call No.:  Type:  Printout Call No.:  Type: 
  K608057  1862 - 1864  0668852   Film  NONE   
 

--- On Thu, 1/8/09, cwood1411 wrote:

From: cwood1411
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Calzada/Briones/Colunga in Fresnillo, Zacatecas
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 2:48 AM

Hello Everyone,
Just registerd for the site and have spent a couple of days reviewing the
lists. So excited about the possibility of finding my mothers family! Have spent
many years researching my father's side, but didn't have much (and still
don't) on my mom's side. So here goes:

Looking for the Calzada-Briones-Colunga family possibly in Fresnillo. They
seemed to have moved quite a bit, but found the 1930 Mexico census that listed
my grandmother and her parents in Santa Barbara, CHI, MX. The census listed my
great grandparents as having been born in Zacatecas, no city listed. Just
yesterday, I learned that they may have been from or lived in Fresnillo,
Zacatecas, as this was the birth place of one of their children but not
necessarily the city where my great grand parents were born, but it's a
starting point! My mother's memory is not so good but this is the info I
have so far and hoping to make a connection:

Juan Briones-Colunga b. abt 1884 Zacatecas
m. Josefa Calzada b. abt 1887 Zacatecas
ch: 1. Filiberto/Alberto Colunga b. 1900 Fresnillo, Zacatecas d. 1989, buried
Parral Cemetery, CHI, MX
m. Isiidra (Ciri) L. Terrazas
ch: Abigail, Savina, Genaro, Benedicto, Hiliberto, Concepcion, Ester
2. Federico Colunga b. abt 1910 CHI
m. Justina Unknown
3. Refugia Colunga b. est 1913 4. Miguel Colunga b. abt 1912
5. Luis Colunga b. abt 1914
6. Erlinda/Hermelinda Colunga b. abt 1916 (my grandmother) d. abt 1940/41
m. Samuel Reyes-Marquez
ch: 2 daughters
7. Rebeca Colunga b. abt 1918
m. Jesus Menarrez
8. Ambrosio Colunga b. abt 1923 d. abt 1941/42
9. Salvador 'Chava' Colunga b. abt 1926

> From memory, my mother and her cousin say that an Enrique Colunga was
either a son of Juan or a brother of Juan Colunga. Enrique was a governor of
Guanajuato, very short term. Family lore says that Juan and son, Filiberto, rode
with Pancho Villa and Filiberto was buried in the same cemetery as Pancho Villa.

Juan Colunga and sons were wealthy entreprenuers holding occupations as
'Zapatero's', (shoemakers?) and they owned shoe stores. I have one
family picture of my great grandparents and some of their children.

My grandparents, Hermelinda and Samuel were divorced with two daughters. Samuel
Marquez removed to El Paso, TX. Hermelinda died about one year after my mother
was born and the two sisters were separated. They have only met once since then
(1979). Last known, my Aunt was in Mexico City, but attempts to reach her have
been unsuccesful. My grandfather made several attempts to regain custody of his
two daughters, but the maternal uncles would run him out of town at each
attempt. My grandfather was finally able to get my mother (long story about how
this was done) when she was 15 and brought her to the US. He was not able to
find her sister.

Any help on this family would be greatly appreciated.
Cathy

Cathy:

I believe this is your great-grandfather... the name is so unique, it would be difficult for this to be a coincidence. The estimated birthdates that you have for them appear to be a little too late. It is improbable (but not impossible) that they had a child when the father was 16 and the mother 13... then again the mother was having children until 1926 so she could not have been born before 1880 or so...

JUAN BRIONES COLUNGA
Male
Christening: 20 JUN 1862 Cienega De Mata, Ojuelos, Jalisco, Mexico
Parents:
Father: MANUEL BRIONES Family
Mother: TOMAZA COLUNGA
Source Information:
Batch No.: C607048
Dates: 1853 - 1862
Source Call No.:0640159 Film

This is a possible hit for your great-grandmother though the name is very common and the birthdate appears to be far too early... There are really no CALZADA in Ojuelos, Jalisco.

JOSEFA CALZADA NERI
Female
Christening: 20 MAR 1873 Fresnillo De Gonzalez Echeverria, Zacatecas, Mexico
Parents:
Father: PABLO CALZADA Family
Mother: PONCIANA NERI
Source Information
Batch No.:K600823 Film 0439822

Welcome to the group Cathy.

Quick question for you. In reference to Juan Briones-Colunga. Is his surname
Briones or Colunga? At first glance I assumed that Briones was his father's
surname and Colunga was his mothers surname, which is pretty standard in
hispanic names. However, your family seems to have carried on with the
Colunga name instead.

-Angelina-

I have been searching through the Sanchez family in Ayutla and Tenamaxtlan as well and had gotten back to the 4th ggrandfather: Pablo Luis Maria who was married to Agustina Macedo Rodriguez, which are familiar names in that area. However, then I found a slew of documents showing that Pablo, who mostly went by Luis or Luis Maria, also used the name Bernal. I have found several children for this couple and some used Bernal and others used Sanchez. Any thoughts?

I've gone through pretty much all of the Tenamaxtlan records and certainly share your frustration. I've found many in Tecolotlan and Ameca. Also Autlan, Ameca, and Moscota. I have a few minor sources that might be helpful; although you probably already have them.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-29506-14076-32?cc=1937239…

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18455-52836-24?cc=1874591&wc…

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18457-89183-51?cc=1874591&wc…

Dear Sergio et al,

First of all, congratulations Sergio for all the great work you are doing with the series of books on your family, Jalostotitlán, and Los Altos. I enjoy them and find them very illuminating. ¡Felicidades y gracias!

Thanks to your publication of the Padrones de Jalostotitlán (1649 & 1650) you inadvertently led to the answer to your two primary questions based on your doubting of a quote by Mariano González Leal. Don Mariano was in error...he got his facts wrong in that prologue and correct in Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia. He must have been writing the prologue off the top of his head and dropped the ball.

Your first question was if someone had verified that Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio “El Mozo” actually married Francisca Hurtado de Mendoza? And second question…If Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio “El Mozo” actually married Leonor de Hermosillo, then who did Capitan Miguel Gutiérrez-Rubio marry?

Amongst modern Alteño genealogists, I believe Jaime Holcombe-Isunza was one of the first to verify that Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio “El Mozo” actually married Francisca Hurtado de Mendoza. Even if he was not the first, certainly his vast body of work, which was integrated into the Mormon database since the 1970s, has contributed to EVERYBODY’s basic understanding of Alteño genealogy...errors and all. We all owe it to Jaime Holcombe because his family group sheets were microfilmed and inputted into the International Genealogical Index (IGI) during the late 1980s onto CDs. I still remember using those old CD-ROM case things. These CDs and the IGI database were then made accessible online when FamilySearch.org came of age in the 1990s.

Jaime Holcombe cites the Padrones (Censuses) of Jalostotitlán many times in his family group sheets. In particular are the very detailed and highly useful Padrones de 1649 and 1650. In these two padrones lies the answer to your questions.

Sergio, if you may permit me to briefly quote from one of your books, I can show you…but I’m sure you have figured it out over the five years since. The 1649 padrón mentions Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio II is married to Francisca (Hurtado) de Mendoza. On page 24…
[El padrón de Jalostotitlán 1649 - Página 24]

Casa y estancia de Francisco Gutiérrez español, que está de la cabecera 2 leguas
* Francisco Gutiérrez ††
* Francisca de Mendoza, española su mujer ††
* Diego Gutiérrez, su hijo solt. de 18 años ††
* Juan Gutiérrez, español ††
* Ana Camacho, española su mujer ††
* Teresa, su hija de 3 años
* Francisco Gutiérrez, español ††
* Catalina Mejía, su mujer ††
* Sebastián Gutiérrez, español de 24 años, †† hijo de padres no conocidos
* Josefa Gutiérrez, española solt. 14 años, †† hija de padres no conocidos
* Ana Gutiérrez, mestiza solt. 18 años, †† hija de padres no conocidos
* Marcos Ortiz, español de 4 años, hijo de padres no conocidos
[...et cetera...]

[Fuente: Sergio Gutiérrez, "Jalostotitlán - Padrones Parroquiales Volumen 1: 1649, 1650 y 1670", (2014)]

By the next year however, Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio II is a widower. That was fast! In 1649 he is married to Francisca de Mendoza and in 1650 he is a widower. Francisca de Mendoza died in the interim year between 1649 and 1650. The exact same family as above in 1650, on page 70…

[El padrón de Jalostotitlán 1650 - Página 70]

Casa y estancia de Francisco Gutiérrez, que está de la cabecera 2 leguas
* Francisco Gutiérrez viudo †† español
* Diego Gutiérrez su hijo de 22 años ††
* Juan Gutiérrez español ††
* Ana Camacho española su mujer ††
* Teresa su hija de 5 años
* Francisco Gutiérrez español ††
* Catalina Mejía su mujer ††
* Luisa su hija de 3 años
* Sebastián Gutiérrez español de 25 años †† de padres no conocidos
* Ana Gutiérrez mestiza solt. hija de padres no conocidos †† 15 años
* Marcos español de padres no conocidos 6 años
[...et cetera...]

[Fuente: Sergio Gutiérrez, "Jalostotitlán - Padrones Parroquiales Volumen 1: 1649, 1650 y 1670", (2014)]
____________________________________________________

Although neither the 1649 nor the 1650 mentions Miguel Gutiérrez-Rubio, brother of Francisco II, by name…it does mention his widowed wife, Leonor de Hermosillo. So it is logical to conclude that Miguel Gutiérrez-Rubio was deceased before 1649. In the 1649 padrón, pg. 26…

[El padrón de Jalostotitlán 1649 - Página 26]

"Casa y estancia de Leonor de Hermosillo española viuda, que está de la cabecera 3 leguas
* Leonor de Hermosillo, española viuda ††
* El Bachiller Lázaro Gutiérrez, su hijo presbítero ††
* Juan de Aceves, español solt. de 20 años ††
* Catalina Mejía, española de 15 años †† hijos de Juan de Aceves y de Beatriz de Hermosillo españoles difuntos.
* Leonor de Hermosillo, española de 7 años † hija de padres no conocidos "
[...et cetera...]

[Fuente: Sergio Gutiérrez, "Jalostotitlán - Padrones Parroquiales Volumen 1: 1649, 1650 y 1670", (2014)]

Same family, same story one year later. In the 1650 padrón, pg. 72…

[El padrón de Jalostotitlán 1650 - Página 72]

"Casa y estancia de Leonor de Hermosillo española viuda, que está de la cabecera 3 leguas
* Leonor de Hermosillo viuda ††
* Bachiller Lázaro Gutiérrez presbítero ††
* Juan de Aceves español solt. de 22 años ††
* Catalina Mejía española de 17 años ††
* Leonor de Hermosillo española de 9 años † [hija de padres no conocidos]"
[...et cetera...]

[Fuente: Sergio Gutiérrez, "Jalostotitlán - Padrones Parroquiales Volumen 1: 1649, 1650 y 1670", (2014)]

So there you go. What I would like to know now is who are all these españoles “hijos de padres no conocidos” with the last name Gutiérrez living in their family households??? Are these Gutiérrez “orphans” grandchildren of Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio I and Ana González-Florida I??? Do any of you know who was having all these “hijos de padres no conocidos”??? [Ya mero no conocían quienes eran los padres de estos niños.]

My research has shown me that there were several cases of children born out of wedlock, more than we could imagine. “Hijos naturales”, both identified as Españoles and Mestizos, seem to be prevalent in several of the foundational families…González de Hermosillo, Ornelas, Gutiérrez Rubio, Casillas, Mendoza, etc. For some of these wealthy Spanish land-owners, there must have been ample temptation and opportunity amongst the native, servant, and slave population to sire bastard offspring. I am currently studying one of these illegitimate lines…a combination of González de Hermosillo and Gutiérrez Rubio which eventually became simply Gutiérrez.

And seriously, all of you guys need to buy Sergio Gutiérrez’s books. Can I plug your books? I guess I just did. They are priceless!!!

Hasta pronto a todos mis primos.

SFHL

HOLA SERGIO.
 
 CREO QUE ESTAS CONFUNDIDO EL FRANCISCO QUE TU HABLAS ES HIJO DE EL CAPITAN MIGUEL GUTIERRES HERMANO DE EL CAPITAN FRANCISCO GUTIERREZ EL MOZO.
 
POR LO TANTO ES NIETO DE FRANCISCO GUTIERRES EL VIEJO Y ANA GONZALEZ FLORIDA.
 
SON TRES FRANCISCOS:
 
FRANCISCO EL VIEJO SU HIJO FRANCISCO EL CAPITAN (HERMANO DE MIGUEL) CASADO CON FRANCISCA HURTADO DE MENDOZAY FRANCISCO GUTIERREZ CASADO CON JUANA LOMELI.(HIJO DE EL CAPITAN MIGUEL GUTIERREZ Y LEONOR DE HERMOSILLO).
 
LUIS MIGUEL GONZALEZ JIMENEZ

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

you are far away from the defunciones part of this document, the right link 1730 begin here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15529-36451-40?cc=1804458&wc… but is imposible to read it, sorry

Post the link to the actual record, I may be able to help you. The pictures are too small for me.

Linda,

I've done research on your site hundreds of times. We have tons of mutual anestors and I can

help you find your single parents's mates.

Joseph de Leon

here's some info. you might find useful. for one a marriage record for antonio silvestre ortiz and petronila carrillo refers to jose olague as being the father of francisca cid
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-80989-40?cc=1874591&wc….

jose's parents are juan olague and leonor de avila

Estimado Daniel,

Fue el Dr. Victoriano Navarro quien transribió la dispensa. Yo lo copié de otro hilo y cuando lo hice incluí su nombre para reconocer que el era quien habia aportado los datos. Es a el que tenemos que agradecer por ese aporte. Lo que yo si habia hecho es precipitar ese hilo que empezó Miguel Beltran donde el Dr. aportó la información y lo repetí en el hilo que empezaste.

Gracias Daniel, Miguel y Dr. Navarro

Armando

Hola Miguel:

Ojalá puedo ayuarte. Pienso que tengo información sobre esta pareja, no sé si son los mismos pero por lo menos puedes utilizarlo como pista. Lo saqué de los datos del don Jaime Holcombe, aunque oficialmente no sé si existe un partido matrimonial si probó los padres de Nicolás Moreno de Ortega, cuya defunción era 8 de enero de 1701 en Santa María de los Lagos, casado con Juana Mariana Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (o simplemente Hermosillo), Jaime Holcombe la puso como hija de Sebastián Gutiérrez de Hermosillo y María Galindo Becerra.

Si existe dos otros partidos matrimoniales de hijos de Nicolás Moreno de Ortega y Juana Mariana Gutiérrez de Hermosillo. Alonso Moreno de Ortega casado el 8 de octubre de 1691 en Lagos de Moreno con Ana Rodríguez de Portugal hija del Alférez mayor Francisco Rodríguez, natural de Puebla de los Ángeles y doña Ana Gómez de Portugal, bautizada 7 de agosto de 1639 en Lagos e hija del capitán Juan Gómez de Portugal y María de Ysasi.

El otro hijo casado que tengo es Luis Moreno de Ortega el 25 de junio de 1688 en Lagos con Teresa de Alcalá y Hurtado de Mendoza (Alcalá-Mendoza) hija de Carolos de Alcalá Mendoza y Ana García de Lara, casados 14 de mayo de 1661 en Lagos.

Otra hija de ellos era Josepha Moreno de Ortega y aunque yo no he encontrado partido de ella, Jaime Holcombe la puso como hija de éstos, ya como mencionaste bautizada 1 de noviembre de 1661 en Lagos con el capitán Esteban de Anda Altamirano hijo del capitan Pedro de Anda Altamirano y Catalina Sáenz de Vidaurre hija del tesorero de Lagos Juan Sáenz de Vidaurre.

Otra hija que Jaime Holcombe nombró era Nicolasa Moreno de Ortega casado con Francisco Rodríguez de Portugal bautizado 18 de marzo de 1658 en Puebla. hija del Alférez mayor Francisco Rodríguez y doña Ana Gómez de Portugal. Por lo menos tuvieron este hijo bautizado en Pueblo, he pensado que luego del matrimonio en Lagos el alférez llevó su mujer a Puebla donde se efectuó esta bautismo de Francisco, segundo de su nombre. Otro también bautizado en puebla era Bernardino Rodríguez de Portugal el 13 de marzo de 1661 ya para 1662 vuelven la familia a Lagos de Moreno. Nunca encontré partida matrimonial de Nicolasa y Francisco Rodríguez de Portugal, II pero pienso que Jaime Holcombe dedujó que dos hermanos casándose con dos hermanos de una otra familia, no lo sé que pensó, pero aún tengo los datos así en caso.

La identidad de los padres de Nicolás Moreno de Ortega eran probados pero no lo sé sobre Juana Mariana (o Mariana) Gutierrez de Hermosillo o Hermosillo.

Ojalá ayuda en algo Miguel.

Saludos,
Daniel Méndez y Camino

unfortunately there are record gaps in the availible records on family search

According to the Family History library catalog, there are no death records for the period 1687-1711. Thus the records either do not exist (more likely), or if they do exist, they were not filmed (less likely).

Sometimes a record type will be mixed with other records, such as the first volume for Mezquitic which includes baptisms, marriages, and deaths. The catalog will often, but not always state this. Considering the gap is so large, I suspect these records are lost.

I have come against the same problem in other communities (San Fancisco del Rincon, GTO), where the more important records (marriages and baptisms) do not exist for a critical time period for some families I am researching.

Nonetheless, I continue to be amazed at the vast quantity of records that do exist for Mexico.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA