Online Status
Okay, I've searched just about everything online for a particular ancestor that I could find. All of the online LDS stuff, which is basically the Catholic Church records they have. I am looking for the birth of Enrique Chavez.
I have the following information and I'm wondering where else to look. I've found everything from the 1930's Census, I have his tombstone photo, his marriage and his kids births document. But not his birth. I have his wedding document of 1904. In this document it says that he is 45 years old at the time of his marriage. I think this is a mistake by the priest. It should have been 35 in 1904, if he in fact was born in 1870. The tombstone shows he was 92 at his death in 1960, which is yet another year of birth.
Enrique Chavez was said to have been born to Jose Jacinto Chavez and Maria Guadalupe Ruiz De Esparza. These two were married in Aug 1872, yet Enrique was born in 1870 or earlier! Previous to this marriage, Jacinto had been married to Maria Guadalupe's sister, Maria Estanislao. That marriage began in Jul 1863. I have births from this first marriage all the way up to 1870. Subsequently, births began in 1873 with the new wife about 8 months after the second wedding. I have documents for all the births except Enrique!
I have the wedding document for this second marriage and it shows Jacinto as a Viudo (widower) and it even lists his first wife by name. However, the document shows that the first wife had been dead for 18 years! Not bloody likely, according to the documents I found.
Is there a any place else I can look for records? Maybe the city where he was born?
Henry Chavez
Where Else Can I Search
Are there any civil records for the city in which he was born? Not all
children were registered at the time when they were born but you might get
lucky. Often the parents registered all of the children at once years after
they where born. Sometimes, children where never registered.
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 3:25 PM, wrote:
> Okay, I've searched just about everything online for a particular ancestor
> that I could find. All of the online LDS stuff, which is basically the
> Catholic Church records they have. I am looking for the birth of Enrique
> Chavez.
> I have the following information and I'm wondering where else to look.
> I've found everything from the 1930's Census, I have his tombstone photo,
> his marriage and his kids births document. But not his birth. I have his
> wedding document of 1904. In this document it says that he is 45 years old
> at the time of his marriage. I think this is a mistake by the priest. It
> should have been 35 in 1904, if he in fact was born in 1870. The tombstone
> shows he was 92 at his death in 1960, which is yet another year of birth.
>
> Enrique Chavez was said to have been born to Jose Jacinto Chavez and Maria
> Guadalupe Ruiz De Esparza. These two were married in Aug 1872, yet Enrique
> was born in 1870 or earlier! Previous to this marriage, Jacinto had been
> married to Maria Guadalupe's sister, Maria Estanislao. That marriage began
> in Jul 1863. I have births from this first marriage all the way up to 1870.
> Subsequently, births began in 1873 with the new wife about 8 months after
> the second wedding. I have documents for all the births except Enrique!
>
> I have the wedding document for this second marriage and it shows Jacinto
> as a Viudo (widower) and it even lists his first wife by name. However, the
> document shows that the first wife had been dead for 18 years! Not bloody
> likely, according to the documents I found.
> Is there a any place else I can look for records? Maybe the city where he
> was born?
>
> Henry Chavez
Where Else Can I Search
Deedra Corona
Even up until recently, in Mexico, if the birth was ilegitimate, and it sounds as though it may have been, it was in a separate registry. I think it might be called "registros de hijos naturales" or "hijos elijitimos", but I'm not sure.
Good Luck
Where Else Can I Search
I am wondering if "hijos naturales" are listed in separate books , was LDS given permission to film those? If they were kept in separate books, wasn't it for the privacy of the mother, and we will never have access to those?
Emilie'
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: zapvive1@msn.com
> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:24:48 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where Else Can I Search
>
> Deedra Corona
> Even up until recently, in Mexico, if the birth was ilegitimate, and it sounds as though it may have been, it was in a separate registry. I think it might be called "registros de hijos naturales" or "hijos elijitimos", but I'm not sure.
> Good Luck
Where Else Can I Search
Emilie,
I can only speak for Nochistlan, they did film the hijos naturales and I was
able to access them many years ago. I'm currently looking at Bautismos for the
years 1837-1841 and I found them mixed, the hijos legitimos and hijos naturales
within the same book in sequential order of births for that community.
So you see there appears to be no set rule, depending on the era, the parish and
the Parroco.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca.
________________________________
From: Emilie Garcia
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, April 2, 2011 3:18:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where Else Can I Search
I am wondering if "hijos naturales" are listed in separate books , was LDS given
permission to film those? If they were kept in separate books, wasn't it for
the privacy of the mother, and we will never have access to those?
Emilie'
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: zapvive1@msn.com
> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:24:48 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where Else Can I Search
>
> Deedra Corona
> Even up until recently, in Mexico, if the birth was ilegitimate, and it sounds
>as though it may have been, it was in a separate registry. I think it might be
>called "registros de hijos naturales" or "hijos elijitimos", but I'm not sure.
> Good Luck
Where Else Can I Search
Emilie,
They filmed "hijos naturales" for the state of Colima.
-Angelina-
Natural
I've looked there. No luck.
Henry Chavez
Where Else Can I Search
Henry:
Something I have learned over the years is never "trust" a date without being a complete date. If
a document says a persona was X number of years I always take it as a Appx date. Until I find
the actual date of baptism of record of birth then it is definitive. As for your Enrique he could
have very well belong to Jacinto and Guadalupe. Just because a record says 1874 or a tombstone
says another date does not mean thats his year of birth. I always wondered why there are so much
discrepancies, surely a person's family would know the age of his parents or relatives?
Im curious Maria Estanislao and Jacinto Chavez married 9 July 1863 Rincon de Romos, Aguascalientes
and Guadalupe 8 August 1872 in Ojocaliente, Zacatecas not too far. Have you followed this line of
the Ruiz de Esparza, I'm curious where it leads. Have you connected these sisters to the main trunk
of the family?
I hope this gives you some insight.
Daniel Méndez Camino
Ruiz de Esparza
Daniel,
This is where I have gone using marriage records. Both Estanislao and Guadalupe have the same parents. Their names are Roman Ruiz de Esparza and Guadalupe Romo de Vivar. The subsequent paterno parents are Sevastian Ruiz De Esparza and Gertrudis Calvillo. The materno parents are Maria Romo de Vivar and Maria Dolores Ruiz Esparza. That is as far as I have gone. Still working on that line.
I just don't think that Enrique was born to Guadalupe if it was in 1870. First she was 15 and second, Jacinto was having a daughter with Estanislao that year. I think Estanislao is his mother and the birth was much earlier.
Thanks Daniel. It helps to talk to someone about this. Most friends and family don't get it.
Best,
Henry Chavez
Ruiz de Esparza
Yo tambien estoy buscando información de los Ruis Esparza:
Tengo desde Froylán Ruiz de Esparza Esparza casado con María de Juesús Femat
Martínez, Hijo Fructuoso Ruiz de Esparza Femat caso con Virginia Ruiz de la
Peña Esparza, hija Elvira Esparza Ruiz de la Peña caso con Gabriel Corona
Carrillo, ellos son mis visabuelos.
Si tiene más información de esa les agradezco que me la compartan por favor.
Saludos
2011/4/3
> Daniel,
> This is where I have gone using marriage records. Both Estanislao and
> Guadalupe have the same parents. Their names are Roman Ruiz de Esparza and
> Guadalupe Romo de Vivar. The subsequent paterno parents are Sevastian Ruiz
> De Esparza and Gertrudis Calvillo. The materno parents are Maria Romo de
> Vivar and Maria Dolores Ruiz Esparza. That is as far as I have gone. Still
> working on that line.
> I just don't think that Enrique was born to Guadalupe if it was in 1870.
> First she was 15 and second, Jacinto was having a daughter with Estanislao
> that year. I think Estanislao is his mother and the birth was much earlier.
>
> Thanks Daniel. It helps to talk to someone about this. Most friends and
> family don't get it.
>
> Best,
> Henry Chavez
A suggestion
Try the matrimonial investigations. These will sometimes give information that is not available elsewhere. In some locations the document will give a reference to the baptismal records, if it is in the same church; or simply the name of the town if elsewhere.
Have you looked in the civil records?
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Matrimonial Investigations and Civil Records
George,
That sounds good, where can I find these two sources?
Henry Chavez
Matrimonial Investigations and Civil Records
The matrimonial investigations should be online at the LDS site for Catholic Church records that you have been searching, listed as "Informaciones Matrimoniales".
For the civil records you have several options:
-Wait for them to be posted online at familysearch.org (which may take a few months or several years).
-Go to a LDS Family History Center near you and request the corresponding microfilms (what you see online are the digitalized microfilms), which should arrive in a few weeks if you are lucky. You can find the phones and addresses of LDS FHCs at familysearch.org
-Some States like Coahuila have State Archives with all the civil records, so you don't have to go to each town, just to the Archive. Nuevo León also has a Catholic Church Archive.
Good luck with your search,
Victoriano Navarro
Other Records
Thanks Victoriano, I'm headed that way now. Thanks again for the help.
Henry Chavez
Matrimonial investigations
As noted, many of the matrimonial investigations are online, but not all. It depends on the community.
One of the problems with these documents is that the older ones are not in chronological order. Sometimes this is also true for the more recent ones. Sometimes they will be indexed, but the index could be anywhere in the volume, not just at the beginning or end. Indexes are not common, however.
You would think that all marriages will have the investigation, but there are gaps. It is possible to find some matrimonial investigations for a couple that had children, but whose marriage you cannot find.
The key to these is be persistent and patient, and hope for a little luck!
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA