Yesterday I received help in reading the marriage record for Cayetano Garcia whose parents were Nicolas Garcia and Maria de San Juan.
Now I am trying to find records for Nicolas and Maria, and there is more than one couple with those names.
The one I was looking at today is the marriage record for a Nicolas Garzia and a Maria de San Juan who were married on May 30, 1736 in Colotlan, Jalisco (Image 187 and 188). The other couple that I found would have been too old to be the parents of Cayetano, I think.
Whoever the scribe was, he used a lot of "shorthand" or abbreviations which make it hard for me to understand. I finally figured out the Yo. and Ya. and Yos, meant Yndio, Yndia, and Yndios. My husband's family were very gueros, light-haired with hazel eyes, so if this couple are his ancestors, then they must have "lightened up" through the centuries through intermarriage with only espanoles. All his other ancestors seem to be espanoles.
The record says, I think, that Nicolas was an Yndio from the "Vario de Tlaxo". Where, what is that? I think that for Maria it says she was from Zacatecas, from the "Haza. de Agustin Diaz", a hacienda? Where is that?
Also, the father of Nicolas is listed as Juan de la O and his mother simply as Juana Thomasa, and Maria's are listed as Francisco Ca----? (Calisto?) no last name, and no surname for Ana Maria, her mother.
If Juan was a "de la O" where does "Garzia" come in?
I thank you in advance for your help.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
Nicolas Garcia y Maria de San Juan
Emilie:
Your record reads as follows with spelling modernized:
Nicolás Garcia con María de San Juan, indios de Tlaxcala.
En treinta de mayo de de este año de mil setecientos y treinta y seis, en esta parroquia de San Luis Colotlán, el Padre Presbítero Juan José Sánchez Romero con licencia del parroco casó y veló según las ordenes de la Madre Iglesia a Nicolás García, indio originario del barrio de Tlaxcala, hijo legítimo de Juan de la O y a Juana Tomasa, con María de San Juan india originaria de Zacatecas, de la Hacienda de Agustín Díaz, y residente en este pueblo tiempo de ocho meses, hija legítima de Francisco Calisto y de Ana María, indios. Testigos: Simón de la Cruz, indio de sesenta años, Pedro Rojas, indio de cincuenta y seis, y Francisco dela Cruz, indio de treinta y nueve. Padrinos: Nicolás Garcia e Isabel Sánchez.
El barrio de Tlaxcala is one of the old neighborhoods in Colotlán, where traditionally the Tlaxcaltec colonizers who were brought in 1591 to found the town lived. The fact that Nicolás lived there may mean he was Tlaxcaltec and not Tepehuan or Caxcan, the local indigenous people of the region.
Also, the fact that his padrino was Nicolás García may provide a clue to the origin of his surname. He may have been named after his padrino, including his surname, which was not unheard of, particularly for indigenous people who did not have surnames or had no attachment to the Spanish surnames they had been assigned. Note that the Tlaxcaltec colonizers all had surnames when they arrived in Colotlán, some Spanish names and others Náhuatl names.
Sobre la Hacienda de Agustin Díaz
Disculpe que escriba en español. Me es mas fácil, espero ser útil.
1. Ayer transcribí el acta de matrimonio que indicas y llego basicamente a la misma redacion que arturo ramos. Por eso no la vuelvo a colocar.
2. Es un dato muy interesante y valioso el que indica arturo ramos de los indios tlaxcaltecas, tepehuanes y Caxcan que vivían en el pueblo y coinsido también en pensar que si Nicolás vivia en el barrio de Tlaxcala era porque pertenecía a este grupo de indios ya que en los pueblos de indios había ese tipo de organización por zonas aunque no se puede descartar la pertenencia a otro grupo. Puede ayudar mucho encontrar su acta de bautismo. Como quiera que sea el barrio era parte del pueblo, no un pueblo aparte por lo que concierne al origen de Nicolas.
3. Muchos de los indios de aquella época no eran registrados con apellidos, pero es posible también que el padrino haya dado el apellido García a su ahijado, aunque en este caso se trata del padrino de Matrimonio. La búsqueda se hace más dificil en estos casos porque además el apellido del padre no coincide con el de los hijos, a veces tampoco con los hijos de españoles que muchas veces colocaban el apellido de la madre en vez del paterno.
4. Respecto a la Hacienda de Agustin Díaz no creo que tenga nada que ver con la hacienda de san Agustin en Valparaiso. Agustín Díaz fue un acaudalado de aquella época que contribuyó al establecimiento y manutención de los Frayles Franciscanos que se establecieron en Zacatecas. Tenía su hacienda en la misma ciudad, según lo que sé. Me parece que dicha hacienda se encontraba en donde ahora está la capilla de San Bernabé en el Barrio de Bracho, en la misma ciudad de Zacatecas (que es de donde dice el acta que es originaria María de San Juan). No sé si Agustín Diaz tenía otras haciendas, pero el este caso me parece que habla de Agustín días como dueño de la hacienda y no como el nombre de ella. Los hacendados tenían a su servicio a veces grandes cantidades de indios que les eran encomendados a su cuidado. Ya en esta epoca las encomiendas antiguas se habían transformado en haciendas.
Es muy interesante la investigación y vale la pena seguir indagando en estas raíces. Los indios tlaxcaltecas fueron un pilar fuerte en la construccion de la sociedad colonial, fueron quienes llevaron las técnicas de labranza y cultivo (junto con los españoles) a los demás grupos étnicos del norte y occidente, como es el caso de Jalisco. Eran trasladados a formar pueblos de indios para civilizar a las demás tribus y están en la base de la identidad Mexicana junto con los aztecas. Le deseo buena suerte en su investigacion.
Jorge Elias
Sobre la Hacienda de Agustin Díaz
Jorge--- lei su respuesta y entiendo espanol un poco.
Gracias por la historia del Senor Agustin Dias. Tambien yo pense que era nombre de una persona, un hacendado. La palabra "acaudalado " no conozco, tal vez quiere decir un hombre muy rico.
Ya creo que esta pareja que se caso en Colotlan no eran los ansestros de mi marido porque los dos eran indios, y encontre otra pareja con los mismos nombres en un bautismo de Cayetano Garcia que eran espanoles con origen en Aguascalientes. Desde Cayetano hasta mi marido dicen que eran espanoles de los altos de jalisco (Encarnacion de Diaz, Lagos de Moreno, Santa Maria, etc).
Lo de los Tlaxcanes es cosa interesante para mi. No entendi "tlaxo", y Arturo sabia que quire decir Tlaxala. Mi madre era descendiente de los espanoles y los indios del los tribus Piro/Manso/Tewa de Nuevo Mexico. En 1598 Don Juan de Onate llego a esas partes. Dicen que con Onate vinieron Indios Tlaxcaltecas de Mexico para ayudar civilizar los indios barbaros de esos tiempos. Esos Tlaxcanes tenian sus barrios en Nuevo Mexico, cerca de Taos y Santa Fe, pero vivian como espanoles con derechos como los espanoles. Creo que la conquista no fue por solo tan pocos espanoles sin la ayuda de los indios enemigos de los Aztecas, etc.
Gracias,
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: eliasjorge4@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:47:13 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sobre la Hacienda de Agustin Díaz
>
> Disculpe que escriba en español. Me es mas fácil, espero ser útil.
>
> 1. Ayer transcribí el acta de matrimonio que indicas y llego basicamente a la misma redacion que arturo ramos. Por eso no la vuelvo a colocar.
>
> 2. Es un dato muy interesante y valioso el que indica arturo ramos de los indios tlaxcaltecas, tepehuanes y Caxcan que vivían en el pueblo y coinsido también en pensar que si Nicolás vivia en el barrio de Tlaxcala era porque pertenecía a este grupo de indios ya que en los pueblos de indios había ese tipo de organización por zonas aunque no se puede descartar la pertenencia a otro grupo. Puede ayudar mucho encontrar su acta de bautismo. Como quiera que sea el barrio era parte del pueblo, no un pueblo aparte por lo que concierne al origen de Nicolas.
>
> 3. Muchos de los indios de aquella época no eran registrados con apellidos, pero es posible también que el padrino haya dado el apellido García a su ahijado, aunque en este caso se trata del padrino de Matrimonio. La búsqueda se hace más dificil en estos casos porque además el apellido del padre no coincide con el de los hijos, a veces tampoco con los hijos de españoles que muchas veces colocaban el apellido de la madre en vez del paterno.
>
> 4. Respecto a la Hacienda de Agustin Díaz no creo que tenga nada que ver con la hacienda de san Agustin en Valparaiso. Agustín Díaz fue un acaudalado de aquella época que contribuyó al establecimiento y manutención de los Frayles Franciscanos que se establecieron en Zacatecas. Tenía su hacienda en la misma ciudad, según lo que sé. Me parece que dicha hacienda se encontraba en donde ahora está la capilla de San Bernabé en el Barrio de Bracho, en la misma ciudad de Zacatecas (que es de donde dice el acta que es originaria María de San Juan). No sé si Agustín Diaz tenía otras haciendas, pero el este caso me parece que habla de Agustín días como dueño de la hacienda y no como el nombre de ella. Los hacendados tenían a su servicio a veces grandes cantidades de indios que les eran encomendados a su cuidado. Ya en esta epoca las encomiendas antiguas se habían transformado en haciendas.
>
> Es muy interesante la investigación y vale la pena seguir indagando en estas raíces. Los indios tlaxcaltecas fueron un pilar fuerte en la construccion de la sociedad colonial, fueron quienes llevaron las técnicas de labranza y cultivo (junto con los españoles) a los demás grupos étnicos del norte y occidente, como es el caso de Jalisco. Eran trasladados a formar pueblos de indios para civilizar a las demás tribus y están en la base de la identidad Mexicana junto con los aztecas. Le deseo buena suerte en su investigacion.
>
> Jorge Elias
Nicolas Garcia y Maria de San Juan
Arturo --
Thanks so much for that translation.
At first I thought that this couple, Nicolas and Maria San Juan, were the parents of Joseph Cayetano Garcia (as he is listed in his marriage to Anna Cleta Calzada, who is described as an espanol "originario de Aguascalientes Villa"), but I have since found what I think is Cayetano's baptism, which is a Pedro Cayetano Garcia Belasco who was baptized in the capital city of Aguascalientes on May 11, 1738. This one's parents are listed as Nicolas Garcia and Maria de Snjuan Belasco. In another record, she was described as Maria de San Juan Villalpando. The couple in the record you translated below seem to both be Indians, and as you know, Tony's folks claimed they had no Indian blood. What do you think? Which couple is more likely to be Tony's ancestors?
As I go farther back in the records, now that I have a better browser and FamilySearch keeps adding images, it is getting ever more difficult to pinpoint ancestry because back in the 1700s the grandparents were not listed. If I don't find a marriage, then I get lost and pick the wrong ancestors.
Also, as in more modern times, women mostly were listed with various different surnames according to which record one is looking at which makes research even more difficult..
Oh, that is interesting about the Tlaxcalans. You know my mother was descended from Hispanized Pueblo Indians (Piro/Manso/Tewa), and it is said that it was Tlaxcalans that may have come with the Spaniards to New Mexico in the 1500s, and that the Spaniards brought them to help civilize the Indians in each place they went. So, it wasn't a tiny handful of Spaniards that conquuered Mexico and the New World, but their friendly Indian allies. Well, I digress.
Thank you again for clearing up the language and abbreviations for me.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:34:22 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolas Garcia y Maria de San Juan
>
> Emilie:
>
> Your record reads as follows with spelling modernized:
>
> Nicolás Garcia con María de San Juan, indios de Tlaxcala.
>
> En treinta de mayo de de este año de mil setecientos y treinta y seis, en esta parroquia de San Luis Colotlán, el Padre Presbítero Juan José Sánchez Romero con licencia del parroco casó y veló según las ordenes de la Madre Iglesia a Nicolás García, indio originario del barrio de Tlaxcala, hijo legítimo de Juan de la O y a Juana Tomasa, con María de San Juan india originaria de Zacatecas, de la Hacienda de Agustín Díaz, y residente en este pueblo tiempo de ocho meses, hija legítima de Francisco Calisto y de Ana María, indios. Testigos: Simón de la Cruz, indio de sesenta años, Pedro Rojas, indio de cincuenta y seis, y Francisco dela Cruz, indio de treinta y nueve. Padrinos: Nicolás Garcia e Isabel Sánchez.
>
> El barrio de Tlaxcala is one of the old neighborhoods in Colotlán, where traditionally the Tlaxcaltec colonizers who were brought in 1591 to found the town lived. The fact that Nicolás lived there may mean he was Tlaxcaltec and not Tepehuan or Caxcan, the local indigenous people of the region.
>
> Also, the fact that his padrino was Nicolás García may provide a clue to the origin of his surname. He may have been named after his padrino, including his surname, which was not unheard of, particularly for indigenous people who did not have surnames or had no attachment to the Spanish surnames they had been assigned. Note that the Tlaxcaltec colonizers all had surnames when they arrived in Colotlán, some Spanish names and others Náhuatl names.
Nicolas Garcia y Maria de San Juan
That is so interesting and yes, it was a very small group of Spaniards, which seems almost unbelievable. I will upload an actual record of Coronado's exploration. Some of you may find this interesting. The preface is by Mendoza.
Nancy Casillas
Saint Clair, Michigan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 2:02:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolas Garcia y Maria de San Juan
Arturo --
Thanks so much for that translation.
At first I thought that this couple, Nicolas and Maria San Juan, were the parents of Joseph Cayetano Garcia (as he is listed in his marriage to Anna Cleta Calzada, who is described as an espanol "originario de Aguascalientes Villa"), but I have since found what I think is Cayetano's baptism, which is a Pedro Cayetano Garcia Belasco who was baptized in the capital city of Aguascalientes on May 11, 1738. This one's parents are listed as Nicolas Garcia and Maria de Snjuan Belasco. In another record, she was described as Maria de San Juan Villalpando. The couple in the record you translated below seem to both be Indians, and as you know, Tony's folks claimed they had no Indian blood. What do you think? Which couple is more likely to be Tony's ancestors?
As I go farther back in the records, now that I have a better browser and FamilySearch keeps adding images, it is getting ever more difficult to pinpoint ancestry because back in the 1700s the grandparents were not listed. If I don't find a marriage, then I get lost and pick the wrong ancestors.
Also, as in more modern times, women mostly were listed with various different surnames according to which record one is looking at which makes research even more difficult..
Oh, that is interesting about the Tlaxcalans. You know my mother was descended from Hispanized Pueblo Indians (Piro/Manso/Tewa), and it is said that it was Tlaxcalans that may have come with the Spaniards to New Mexico in the 1500s, and that the Spaniards brought them to help civilize the Indians in each place they went. So, it wasn't a tiny handful of Spaniards that conquuered Mexico and the New World, but their friendly Indian allies. Well, I digress.
Thank you again for clearing up the language and abbreviations for me.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:34:22 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolas Garcia y Maria de San Juan
>
> Emilie:
>
> Your record reads as follows with spelling modernized:
>
> Nicolás Garcia con María de San Juan, indios de Tlaxcala.
>
> En treinta de mayo de de este año de mil setecientos y treinta y seis, en esta parroquia de San Luis Colotlán, el Padre Presbítero Juan José Sánchez Romero con licencia del parroco casó y veló según las ordenes de la Madre Iglesia a Nicolás García, indio originario del barrio de Tlaxcala, hijo legítimo de Juan de la O y a Juana Tomasa, con María de San Juan india originaria de Zacatecas, de la Hacienda de Agustín Díaz, y residente en este pueblo tiempo de ocho meses, hija legítima de Francisco Calisto y de Ana María, indios. Testigos: Simón de la Cruz, indio de sesenta años, Pedro Rojas, indio de cincuenta y seis, y Francisco dela Cruz, indio de treinta y nueve. Padrinos: Nicolás Garcia e Isabel Sánchez.
>
> El barrio de Tlaxcala is one of the old neighborhoods in Colotlán, where traditionally the Tlaxcaltec colonizers who were brought in 1591 to found the town lived. The fact that Nicolás lived there may mean he was Tlaxcaltec and not Tepehuan or Caxcan, the local indigenous people of the region.
>
> Also, the fact that his padrino was Nicolás García may provide a clue to the origin of his surname. He may have been named after his padrino, including his surname, which was not unheard of, particularly for indigenous people who did not have surnames or had no attachment to the Spanish surnames they had been assigned. Note that the Tlaxcaltec colonizers all had surnames when they arrived in Colotlán, some Spanish names and others Náhuatl names.
Need help translating Marriage of Nicolas Garzia & Maria de San
Hi Emilie:
What you said is very common, the mixture of blood and races was something that was inevitable in the Mexican families. As many others, I do have the same situation in my family, I had a greatgrandfather that was blue eyes and had light hair when he was a child but I discovered that by his mother's side he had some black blood, also his mother had the same color of eyes and white skin but she did have some brothers that were brown skin. By the oher side, there is some part of my family that are not blond but studying their ancestry I could realize that they descended only from Spanish, because there were also Spaniards that came here and didn´t have light hair or eyes because of their Arab blood.
About your question about Juan de la O, in my experience I've found that in some cases the indians and also the Spanish changed their surname that corresponded to them, sometimes because of the surname importance or other times because of a personal situation.
Also there is an Hacienda San Agustín del Vergel in Valparaíso, Zacatecas, maybe there is where your ancestor was from.
Sincerely,
Salvador Agraz.
Need help translating Marriage of Nicolas Garzia & Maria de San
Enrique --- thank you for the information on that Hacienda de San Agustin.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: enrique_agraz94@hotmail.com
> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:26:32 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help translating Marriage of Nicolas Garzia & Maria de San
>
> Hi Emilie:
>
> What you said is very common, the mixture of blood and races was something that was inevitable in the Mexican families. As many others, I do have the same situation in my family, I had a greatgrandfather that was blue eyes and had light hair when he was a child but I discovered that by his mother's side he had some black blood, also his mother had the same color of eyes and white skin but she did have some brothers that were brown skin. By the oher side, there is some part of my family that are not blond but studying their ancestry I could realize that they descended only from Spanish, because there were also Spaniards that came here and didn´t have light hair or eyes because of their Arab blood.
>
> About your question about Juan de la O, in my experience I've found that in some cases the indians and also the Spanish changed their surname that corresponded to them, sometimes because of the surname importance or other times because of a personal situation.
>
> Also there is an Hacienda San Agustín del Vergel in Valparaíso, Zacatecas, maybe there is where your ancestor was from.
>
> Sincerely,
> Salvador Agraz.
Need help translating Marriage of Nicolas Garzia & Maria de San
Emilie,
Can you give us the link to image you are looking at? As far as the Hacienda
de de Agustín Díaz, only someone that is familiar with that name and which
hacienda he owned would know which one it is.
Armando
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Emilie Garcia
wrote:
>
> Yesterday I received help in reading the marriage record for Cayetano
> Garcia whose parents were Nicolas Garcia and Maria de San Juan.
>
> Now I am trying to find records for Nicolas and Maria, and there is more
> than one couple with those names.
>
> The one I was looking at today is the marriage record for a Nicolas Garzia
> and a Maria de San Juan who were married on May 30, 1736 in Colotlan,
> Jalisco (Image 187 and 188). The other couple that I found would have been
> too old to be the parents of Cayetano, I think.
>
> Whoever the scribe was, he used a lot of "shorthand" or abbreviations which
> make it hard for me to understand. I finally figured out the Yo. and Ya.
> and Yos, meant Yndio, Yndia, and Yndios. My husband's family were very
> gueros, light-haired with hazel eyes, so if this couple are his ancestors,
> then they must have "lightened up" through the centuries through
> intermarriage with only espanoles. All his other ancestors seem to be
> espanoles.
>
> The record says, I think, that Nicolas was an Yndio from the "Vario de
> Tlaxo". Where, what is that? I think that for Maria it says she was from
> Zacatecas, from the "Haza. de Agustin Diaz", a hacienda? Where is that?
>
> Also, the father of Nicolas is listed as Juan de la O and his mother simply
> as Juana Thomasa, and Maria's are listed as Francisco Ca----? (Calisto?) no
> last name, and no surname for Ana Maria, her mother.
>
> If Juan was a "de la O" where does "Garzia" come in?
>
> I thank you in advance for your help.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
Need help translating Marriage of Nicolas Garzia & Maria de San
Armando--- here is the link:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.family…
> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:47:54 -0500
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help translating Marriage of Nicolas Garzia & Maria de San Juan
>
> Emilie,
>
> Can you give us the link to image you are looking at? As far as the Hacienda
> de de Agustín Díaz, only someone that is familiar with that name and which
> hacienda he owned would know which one it is.
>
> Armando
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Yesterday I received help in reading the marriage record for Cayetano
> > Garcia whose parents were Nicolas Garcia and Maria de San Juan.
> >
> > Now I am trying to find records for Nicolas and Maria, and there is more
> > than one couple with those names.
> >
> > The one I was looking at today is the marriage record for a Nicolas Garzia
> > and a Maria de San Juan who were married on May 30, 1736 in Colotlan,
> > Jalisco (Image 187 and 188). The other couple that I found would have been
> > too old to be the parents of Cayetano, I think.
> >
> > Whoever the scribe was, he used a lot of "shorthand" or abbreviations which
> > make it hard for me to understand. I finally figured out the Yo. and Ya.
> > and Yos, meant Yndio, Yndia, and Yndios. My husband's family were very
> > gueros, light-haired with hazel eyes, so if this couple are his ancestors,
> > then they must have "lightened up" through the centuries through
> > intermarriage with only espanoles. All his other ancestors seem to be
> > espanoles.
> >
> > The record says, I think, that Nicolas was an Yndio from the "Vario de
> > Tlaxo". Where, what is that? I think that for Maria it says she was from
> > Zacatecas, from the "Haza. de Agustin Diaz", a hacienda? Where is that?
> >
> > Also, the father of Nicolas is listed as Juan de la O and his mother simply
> > as Juana Thomasa, and Maria's are listed as Francisco Ca----? (Calisto?) no
> > last name, and no surname for Ana Maria, her mother.
> >
> > If Juan was a "de la O" where does "Garzia" come in?
> >
> > I thank you in advance for your help.
> >
> > Emilie
> > Port Orchard, WA
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >