marriagedispensation requested 10 June 1871 in Jerez, Zac
Don Cleofas (Nicolas) Roux from Paris, Francia in Mexico 8 years in la Labor 4 years
single age 32
parents: Juan Bautista Roux and Margarita Maxima Tissaran both deceased
with Dona Martina Salinas from Jerez single age 16
parents: Don Franco M. Salinas and Dona Carmen de Avila both living
wit: Don Carmen Cooper from U.S. Married age 55 Doctor
wit: Patricio Orosco from Jerez widower age 32 barber
wit: Luis Barral from France now in Jerez married age 32 comerciante who was in the same batallion, Cazadores de Africa and terminated service at the same time.
passport shows landing in Mazatlan 17 Feb 1866
dispensation of bans
source: Jerez marriage dispensations 1865-1875
.
#2
marriage dispensation requested 11 June 1869 in Jerez, Zac
Don Luis Barral single age 30 from St. Aupre, France
parents: Don Luis Barral and Dona Maria Parent both deceased
with Ma. Del Pilar Torres from Jerez single age 18
parents: Don Sostenes Torres and Dona Pioquinta Acevedo both living
wit: Don Manuel Llamas from Jerez single age 22 comerciante
wit: Juan Marquez from hacienda de Cuidado married age 41 labrador
wit: Pedro Salazar from Jerez married age 34 panadero
,
dispensation because he is from another place
Luis said he was in the military and in Mexico for 6 years living in hacineda del Cuidado for two years
Jerez marriage dispensations 1869-1870

________________________________
From: Emilie Garcia
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?

What is the surname of these French in Jerez?

Emilie

> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:38:31 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
>
> actually I did find 2 marriages in Jerez, Zac for former French soldiers marrying women from Jerez.. So there are 2 families with French blood in Jerez one  who did have children there.
> Linda in B.C.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
> Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 1:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
>
> Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
>
> Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've heard it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've done some genealogical research, inevitably this comes up and they say that they are descended from the French. I hear it all the time and I've even alienated some people when I give them a few facts as to the short time period in which the French occupied Mexico and that it's simply not possible or very unlikely that they could be French.
>
>
> The British, French and Spanish arrived in Mexico during the Mexican reform period beginning in October of 1861 because Presidente Juarez had refused to pay Mexico's foreign debts.
>
>
> The French first occupied Puebla, and were defeated on 5 de Mayo of 1862, hence el Cinco de Mayo. The following May, the French again attacked Puebla, then proceeded to Mexico City where they took over the government. Maximilian was asked to accept the Mexican Crown for the French, which he did in accordance with Napolean's plans and wishes. Maximilian arrived in 1864 with his wife Carlota and In 1866, Napolean began recalling the French troops from Mexico. In 1867, Maximilan was tried and executed in Mexico.
>
> So the French were in Mexico from 1861 to 1867. I'm curious to hear what people's thoughts are on this issue of so many people claiming they are French in Mexico.
>
>
> Alicia,
> San Jose, Ca
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________

This group is for serious genealogists actively searching for lineages in
the states of Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.

Also, a lot of people have lost sight of what has caused this discussion to
come about and the reason behind it. There are hundreds, maybe even
thousands, of people with ancestry in Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes
that are told they have French ancestry but when their family trees are
seriously researched there isn't a single French ancestor in the past 400
years and wouldn't matter if 10 million French had immigrated to Jalisco,
Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.

Respectfully,
Armando

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Leni Rivera wrote:

>
> Nuestros Ranchos Members:There were also individuals born in France, but
> who came to Mexico (sometimes via Spain) before and after the French
> Intervention. One example is Ángel Navarro, French-born leading Spanish
> settler in New Spain. My husband also has a gr gr gr gr grandmother (Maria
> Iturbide) from France who married a Basque man and they imigrated to
> Guanajuato, Mexico years after the French invasion. Their reason for
> immigrating was to join family who were already well established in the
> area. The following article discusses French immigration to Mexico, how
> many actually came, where they immigrated from, where they immigrated to,
> and notable Mexicans with French ancestry:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_immigration_to_Mexico Here is also a
> French genealogy blog that discusses French immigration to Mexico (even
> before the French Intervention):
> http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2012/01/french-immigrant…
> > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:38:31 -0700
> > From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
> >
> > actually I did find 2 marriages in Jerez, Zac for former French soldiers
> marrying women from Jerez.. So there are 2 families with French blood in
> Jerez one who did have children there.
> > Linda in B.C.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alicia Carrillo
> > To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
> > Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 1:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
> >
> > Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
> >
> > Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French
> or have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've
> heard it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've
> done some genealogical research, inevitably this comes up and they say that
> they are descended from the French. I hear it all the time and I've even
> alienated some people when I give them a few facts as to the short time
> period in which the French occupied Mexico and that it's simply not
> possible or very unlikely that they could be French.
> >
> >
> > The British, French and Spanish arrived in Mexico during the Mexican
> reform period beginning in October of 1861 because Presidente Juarez had
> refused to pay Mexico's foreign debts.
> >
> >
> > The French first occupied Puebla, and were defeated on 5 de Mayo of
> 1862, hence el Cinco de Mayo. The following May, the French again attacked
> Puebla, then proceeded to Mexico City where they took over the government.
> Maximilian was asked to accept the Mexican Crown for the French, which he
> did in accordance with Napolean's plans and wishes. Maximilian arrived in
> 1864 with his wife Carlota and In 1866, Napolean began recalling the French
> troops from Mexico. In 1867, Maximilan was tried and executed in Mexico.
> >
> > So the French were in Mexico from 1861 to 1867. I'm curious to hear what
> people's thoughts are on this issue of so many people claiming they are
> French in Mexico.
> >
> >
> > Alicia,
> > San Jose, Ca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>

Thanks Primo,

I truly enjoyed the article. My father was one who loved Mariachi Vargas' sones and to this day whenever I hear a son such as La Culebra or el Gavilancillo I only like it with Mariachi Vargas and it reminds me of my dad.

Alicia

________________________________
From: Juan Aguayo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?

Since we're on the topic of the French and their sometimes exaggerated
influence in Mexico I also want to shed some light on how many believe the
myth that French gave rise to Mariachi music in Mexico. Many mariachi
musicians, to this day, themselves believe that this is true, but it is
not. I’ll first share a little story about my friend Jonathan Clark, a very
well respected mariachi musician and historian.

While in college in the bay area I had the pleasure of working with
Jonathan, a guero from San Jose, Ca. if I remember correctly.  Jonathan
started a “guero” Mariachi at San Jose State in the 70s. They played at
many local venues and began to take their playing seriously. Jonathan
organized a trip to Guadalajara to expand their knowledge about mariachi
music and to immerse themselves in the culture of the land of mariachis. He
had always heard of plaza Garibaldi in Mexico City and decided to still
travel there by himself even though he fail to convince his other mariachi
friends to take a trip there from Guadalajara. When he arrived at the Plaza
Garibaldi he approached a guitarronero and asked him where he could
purchase guitarron strings for his instrument. The mariachi laughed at him
and said that a guero couldn’t play the guitarron.  Jonathan took the
mariachis’ guitarron and began to play a few lines of music. The mariachi
was astonished and said he knew of a mariachi that need a guitarronero that
night and that if Jonathan was interested he would introduce him to the
mariachi. Jonathan hesitantly agreed and played with the mariachi ensemble
that night. To make a long story short, Jonathan called his friends in
Guadalajara letting them know he was not returning back home with them.
Since Jonathan was making a life changing decision he took his mariachi
studies seriously and ended up staying in Mexico City for many years. He
became a student of Natividad “Nati” Santiago of El Mariachi Vargas de
Tecalitlan, who many consider to be the best guitarron player of all time.
In 1997 Mariachi Vargas wanted to establish a Mariachi museum in their
name. They asked amongst themselves who was the most knowledgeable in not
only their history, but mariachi history in general, and Jonathan’s name
was at the top of the list. Through their mariachi connections they found
Jonathan back home in San Jose and he helped Mariachi Vargas set up their
museum.  The following excerpt is taken from Jonathan’s website which echos
what he told me about the mariachi Myth around 15 years ago while I was one
of his students.

“The origin of the word “mariachi” has been a subject of controversy.
Legend erroneously has it that mariachi is a corruption of the French word
mariage. The popular belief is that during their occupation of Mexico in
the 19th century, the French contracted the services of local musical
groups for weddings, thus giving them their name. Scholars have long
disagreed with this explanation, insisting the word was of indigenous
origin and that any similarity with the French word was mere coincidence.
However, because there was no concrete proof to support either theory, the
controversy continued for decades until the discovery of an important
document in 1981.

In a letter to his bishop dated 1852, Father Cosme Santa Anna denounced the
drunkenness, gambling, and disorderly conduct associated with the mariachis
across from his church in Rosamorada, Nayarit. The priest described his
attempts to stop the festivities and how he personally took the instruments
away from the musicians! This was the first historical evidence that the
word mariachi was in use before the French invasion of Mexico in the 1860s.
Shortly after its discovery, the text of this document was published in
Mexico City and Los Angeles, and should have laid to rest the mariage
theory once and for all. However, old myths die hard, and the public at
large and most mariachi musicians themselves continue believing that this
uniquely Mexican music owes its name to a foreign source.”

For those interested in Mariachi history you can visit Jonathan’s mariachi
page which is still under construction:

http://mariachihistory.com/index.htmle

I hope you enjoy the story, but more importantly the truth about mariachi
music.

Juan Aguayo

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Alice Blake wrote:

> While it's true what is rare, often is desired, I have come across a
> couple of incidences where the French could have been involved.
> Researching the Archivos Historicos Municipal de Aguascalientes, I've come
> across several entries from 1865 to 1867 as follows:  "Orden de pago por el
> tiempo que fue ocupada por una fuerza francesa la casa/hacienda de..." It
> wouldn't take long for soldiers to get around.  Secondly, there's the
> Basque that originated from regions of Spain and France, yet often claim
> autonomy.  One of my Basque lines originated in the Aquitaine in France,
> yet on his 1776 burial entry, it simply claims, "Europeo", not Frances or
> Espanol.  Go figure.  Alice
>
> --- On Fri, 7/6/12, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
>
>
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
> To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
> Date: Friday, July 6, 2012, 8:41 AM
>
>
> Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
>
> Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or
> have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've heard
> it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've done
> some genealogical research, inevitably this comes up and they say that they
> are descended from the French. I hear it all the time and I've even
> alienated some people when I give them a few facts as to the short time
> period in which the French occupied Mexico and that it's simply not
> possible or very unlikely that they could be French.
>
>
> The British, French and Spanish arrived in Mexico during the Mexican
> reform period beginning in October of 1861 because Presidente Juarez had
> refused to pay Mexico's foreign debts.
>
>
> The French first occupied Puebla, and were defeated on 5 de Mayo of 1862,
> hence el Cinco de Mayo. The following May, the French again attacked
> Puebla, then proceeded to Mexico City where they took over the government.
> Maximilian was asked to accept the Mexican Crown for the French, which he
> did in accordance with Napolean's plans and wishes. Maximilian arrived in
> 1864 with his wife Carlota and In 1866, Napolean began recalling the French
> troops from Mexico. In 1867, Maximilan was tried and executed in Mexico.
>
> So the French were in Mexico from 1861 to 1867. I'm curious to hear what
> people's thoughts are on this issue of so many people claiming they are
> French in Mexico.
>
>
> Alicia,
> San Jose, Ca
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________