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I have been researching Victoriano Ramirez off and on and only had success indirectly. I have his fathers' name and the father's three brothers and a sister. I have his mom's brother's name and her parents, grandparents, and so on, but not her name. I have tracked the Lopez family in san miguel el alto and his father in the vicinity of San Julian. I have where victoriano was born but not a date. Is any one researching him?
I do not descend from him that I know of though I do descend from Juan Jose Ramirez and Maria de Jesus Aseves from San Miguel el alto.

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ElCapitanPaco

13 years 11 months ago

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Yo soy pariente de Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”. El Catorce fue hijo de Carlos Ramírez y de Viviana López. He investigado muy a fondo su genealogía ya que estamos emparentados por el apellido López de los Reyes. La madre de El Catorce, Viviana López Zavala (nac. 04 de diciembre de 1864, San Miguel el Alto), fue hija de Francisco López Maciel y de María de Jesús Zavala Rocha (casados el 19 de febrero de 1851, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco López Maciel (nac. 24 de febrero de 1828/bap. 3 de marzo de 1828, Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto) fue hermano entero de mi tatarabuelo Inocencio López Maciel (nac. 3 de enero de 1838/bap. 7 de enero de 1838, El Rancho del Alto, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco e Inocencio López Maciel fueron hijos de don José Feliciano López Vásquez y de doña María Guadalupe Maciel Villalpando, quienes se casaron el 20 de agosto de 1821 en Jalostotitlán, previa una dispensa de consanguinidad en tercer grado igual.

Todas mis investigaciones de documentos fidedignos comprueban irrefutablemente que el padre de El Catorce se llamaba Carlos Ramírez Ramírez, y no Gabriel Ramírez, como erróneamente afirman algunos descendientes. No he localizado ninguna evidencia que así lo compruebe, pero si existen actas de bautizo de sus otros hermanos en San Miguel el Alto. Además no existe para nada el matrimonio de un Gabriel Ramírez, menos con una López, o que hayan tenido hijos en San Miguel el Alto. Pero si existe el matrimonio de los verdaderos padres de El Catorce, Carlos Ramírez y Viviana López, en San Miguel el Alto, el día 7 de abril de 1880. Lamentablemente, ya no existe el acta de bautizo de Victoriano Ramírez López, ya que la página entera donde aparece su partida en 1892, fue robada hace muchos años. El Catorce nació el día 23 de marzo de 1892, en puesto El Rincón de Chávez, jurisdicción de San Miguel el Alto.

Victoriano Ramírez López fue primo segundo de mi abuelo Agustín López Salcido, o sea que El Catorce fue mi tío abuelo en segundo grado. Cuando mi abuelito Agustín vivía nos contaba que tenía parientes que pelearon en la Cristiada, y nos contaba que era pariente de El Catorce. Siempre me quedé con esa idea, hasta finalmente lo pude comprobar con la investigación genealógica. Nuestro parentesco se puede abreviar así:

.....................Feliciano López = Mª Guadalupe Maciel
Inocencio López=Carmen Flores..................Francisco López=Mª Jesús Zavala
Antonio López=Petra Salcido......................Viviana López=Carlos Ramírez
Agustín López=Mª Guadalupe Contreras..........Victoriano Ramírez López
María López=Ignacio Hernández
Steven F. Hernández López

Espero que les sea útil esta información.

Atentamente,
Steven Francisco Hernández Gamiño y López de los Reyes

(Steven Francisco Hernández-López)

Hello Steven. Do you have any info on the marriage of el Catorce and any kids. My mom used to say that a son of El Catorce married her aunt. My mom is no longer with us to ask her for the name.
Miguel A Gutierrez
----- Original Message -----
From: PacoHernandez73@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:40 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”

Yo soy pariente de Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”. El Catorce fue hijo de Carlos Ramírez y de Viviana López. He investigado muy a fondo su genealogía ya que estamos emparentados por el apellido López de los Reyes. La madre de El Catorce, Viviana López Zavala (nac. 04 de diciembre de 1864, San Miguel el Alto), fue hija de Francisco López Maciel y de María de Jesús Zavala Rocha (casados el 19 de febrero de 1851, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco López Maciel (nac. 24 de febrero de 1828/bap. 3 de marzo de 1828, Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto) fue hermano entero de mi tatarabuelo Inocencio López Maciel (nac. 3 de enero de 1838/7 de enero de 1838, El Rancho del Alto, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco e Inocencio López Maciel fueron hijos de don José Feliciano López Vásquez y de doña María Guadalupe Maciel Villalpando, quienes se casaron el 20 de agosto de 1821 en Jalostotitlán, previa una dispensa de consanguinidad en cuarto grado puro.
Todas mis investigaciones de documentos fidedignos comprueban irrefutablemente que el padre de El Catorce se llamaba Carlos Ramírez Ramírez, y no Gabriel Ramírez, como erróneamente afirman algunos descendientes. No he localizado ninguna evidencia que así lo compruebe, pero si existen actas de bautizo de sus otros hermanos en San Miguel el Alto. Además no existe para nada el matrimonio de un Gabriel Ramírez, menos con una López, o que hayan tenido hijos en San Miguel el Alto. Pero si existe el matrimonio de los verdaderos padres de El Catorce, Carlos Ramírez y Viviana López, en San Miguel el Alto, el día 7 de abril de 1880. Lamentablemente, ya no existe el acta de bautizo de Victoriano Ramírez López, ya que la página entera donde aparece su partida en 1892, fue robada hace muchos años. El Catorce nació el día 23 de marzo de 1892, en puesto El Rincón de Chávez, jurisdicción de San Miguel el Alto.
Victoriano Ramírez López fue primo segundo de mi abuelo Agustín López Salcido, o sea que El Catorce fue mi tío abuelo en segundo grado. Cuando mi abuelito Agustín vivía nos contaba que tenía parientes que pelearon en la Cristiada, y nos contaba que era pariente de El Catorce. Siempre me quedé con esa idea, hasta finalmente lo pude comprobar con la investigación genealógica. Nuestro parentesco se puede abreviar así:

Feliciano López = Mª Guadalupe Maciel
Inocencio López=Carmen Flores Francisco López=Mª Jesús Zavala
Antonio López=Petra Salcido Viviana López=Carlos Ramírez
Agustín López=Mª Guadalupe Contreras Victoriano Ramírez López
María López=Ignacio Hernández
Steven F. Hernández López

Espero que les sea útil esta información.

Atentamente,
Steven Francisco Hernández Gamiño y López de los Reyes

(Steven Francisco Hernández-López)

Adrián Márquez Padilla

Si alguien esta interesado en ver el Acta de nacimiento de Victoriano Ramírez López, del registro civil la pueden encontrar en la siguiente dirección:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21208-689-74?cc=1918187&w…

¿Sabe alguno de ustedes de dos medias hermanas de Victoriano de nombres Altagracia Padilla López y Elvira Padilla López..?

Saludos primos...

Adrían Márquez

Muchas gracias Adrián Márquez por el detalle. Esa acta de Nacimiento en el Registro Civil, ya la había localizado. Nomás que por mi trabajo y el tiempo, olvidé comentar sobre dicha acta y anunciarla en Nuestros Ranchos. Pero ya que resucitaste el tema, permíteme proveerles a nuestros Primos aquí los textos literales de dos documentos referentes a mi tío abuelo en segundo grado, Victoriano Ramírez López, alias "El Catorce".

Como ya sabía la fecha de su nacimiento, no fue difícil localizar dicha Acta en el Registro Civil (Año 1892). Su acta literalmente dice lo siguiente:

"N.o 102. Nacimiento de Victoriano Placencia [sic, Ramírez]

----- En la Villa de San Miguel el Alto a 25 veinte y cinco de Marzo de 1892 mil ochocientos noventa y dos a las 10 diez de la mañana y ante el encargado del registro civil compareció Carlos Ramírez de 31 treinta y un años, casado, labrador del Rincón de Chávez de este municipio y dijo que el día 23 veinte y tres del corriente a las 9 nueve de la mañana nació vivo Victoriano el mismo que presenta siendo su hijo legítimo y de su esposa Viviana López de 24 veinte y cuatro años, siendo abuelos paternos, Mariano Ramírez y Candela... [ - ] ...ria Ramírez; maternos Francisco López y Jesús Zavala; Siendo testigos Jesús Reynozo de 40 cuarenta años, casado, labrador, y Hesmerejildo Padila de 32 treinta y dos años, casado, labrador ambos vecinos de este lugar y sin parentesco con el compareciente. Leída que les fue dijeron ser conformes no firmando por no saber. = Genaro Alcalá "

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Civil Registration, 1857-2000, San Miguel el Alto, Nacimientos 1892 [Image 33-34 of 168].

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21208-689-74?cc=1918187&w…
&
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21208-1200-78?cc=1918187&…

Como pueden ver contiene un error al margen indicando que el apellido de la criatura era "Plascencia", pero dentro del acta claramente se ve que el padre era Carlos Ramírez, hijo de Mariano Ramírez y de Candelaria Ramírez. Esto tiene que ser un error de transcripción secundaria ya que las actas son copias de las originales. Las originales están guardadas en Guadalajara.

Y en respuesta a Miguel A. Gutiérrez (¡Qué tal primo!), en aquel momento tenía noticias por historia familiar que El Catorce se había casado por la iglesia. Lo había leído en un artículo de periódico sobre él.

Esta mujer se llamaba Crescencia Macías, hija legítima de Teodoro Macías y de Pomposa Padilla, vecinos del Rincón de Chávez, jur. de San Miguel el Alto. Victoriano Ramírez López y Crescencia Macías Padilla celebraron nupcias en San Miguel el Alto, el día 17 de junio de 1916.

Su acta de matrimonio literalmente dice:

"Victoriano Ramírez con Crescencia Macías. ----- En la Yglesia parroquial de San Miguel el Alto, a diecisiete de Junio de mil novecientos dieciséis, yo el Pbro. Benito A. Retolaza cura amovible de esta parroquia, previo la información jurídica, la cual consta en el libro cuarenta y seis a fojas ciento treinta y cuatro, después de corridas las tres moniciones prescritas por el Santo Concilio de Trento, practicadas las demás diligencias de derecho, habiéndose confesado y comulgado y no resultando impedimento alguno casé y velé in faciae Ecletiae a Victoriano Ramírez, soltero, de veintitrés años de edad, originario y vecino de Buenavista, hijo legítimo de Carlos Ramírez y de Bibiana López, que viven; con Crescencia Macías, doncella, de diecisiete años de edad originaria y vecina del Rincón de Chávez, hija legítima de ... [ - ] ... Teodoro Macías y de Pomposa Padilla, que viven. Fueron padrinos, Juan Jiménez y Fortina Hernández; testigos, Nicolás Ramírez y Crescencio Padilla. Conste ... Señor Cura ... Benito A. Retolaza (rúbrica)."

[Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco - Libro de Matrimonios No. 12 (14-Apr-1915 - 16-Ago-1919), Fojas 33 vuelta & 34 frente.]

Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, San Miguel el Alto, San Miguel el Alto, Matrimonios 1915-1937 [Image 47 of 449].

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18735-5008-63?cc=1874591&wc=…

¿Alguien sabe algo más sobre Teodoro Macías y Pomposa Padilla, los padres de Crescencia?

Sé que tuvieron hijos y existen descendientes de El Catorce, pero no los tengo registrados bien. Tengo más sobre sus antepasados, y en particular por su lado materno, López de los Reyes, que viene siendo MI lado materno también.

Y, ¿de veras había dos medias-hermanas llamadas, Altagracia Padilla López y Elvira Padilla López? Esto sí que no lo sabía. O sea que Viviana López Zavala tuvo a dos hijas con un Padilla. ¿Cómo se llamaba este señor Padilla? ¿Y cómo de que fechas son Altagracia y Elvira?

¿Hay alguien más por allí que sepa algo más sobre los hermanos de El Catorce, sus sobrinos (a través de dichos hermanos), sus hijos y que ha sido de ellos?

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Victoriano Ramírez López y Crescencia Macías Padilla se casaron en la Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, el día sábado, 17 de junio de 1916.

Su acta de matrimonio literalmente dice:

"Victoriano Ramírez con Crescencia Macías. ----- En la Yglesia parroquial de San Miguel el Alto, a diecisiete de Junio de mil novecientos dieciséis, yo el Pbro. Benito A. Retolaza cura amovible de esta parroquia, previo la información jurídica, la cual consta en el libro cuarenta y seis a fojas ciento treinta y cuatro, después de corridas las tres moniciones prescritas por el Santo Concilio de Trento, practicadas las demás diligencias de derecho, habiéndose confesado y comulgado y no resultando impedimento alguno casé y velé in faciae Ecletiae a Victoriano Ramírez, soltero, de veintitrés años de edad, originario y vecino de Buenavista, hijo legítimo de Carlos Ramírez y de Bibiana López, que viven; con Crescencia Macías, doncella, de diecisiete años de edad originaria y vecina del Rincón de Chávez, hija legítima de ... [ - ] ... Teodoro Macías y de Pomposa Padilla, que viven. Fueron padrinos, Juan Jiménez y Fortina Hernández; testigos, Nicolás Ramírez y Crescencio Padilla. Conste ... Señor Cura ... Benito A. Retolaza (rúbrica)."

[Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco - Libro de Matrimonios No. 12 (14-Apr-1915 - 16-Ago-1919), Fojas 33 vuelta & 34 frente.]

Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, San Miguel el Alto, San Miguel el Alto, Matrimonios 1915-1937 [Image 47 of 449].

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18735-5008-63?cc=1874591&wc=…

¿Alguien sabe algo más sobre Teodoro Macías y Pomposa Padilla, los padres de Crescencia?

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Hello Steve,
Thank you very much for your information on Victoriano Ramirez. My wife's grandfather knew and admired Victoriano Ramirez. Paolo, her grandfather, had a portrait of Victoriano standing next to his horse. I was happily surprised to see this portrait hanging in his house. He enjoyed talking about him. He gave me the portrait in front of witnesses but I did not take it down out of respect for him. He was almost a hundred years old at the time. When an uncle of my wife heard that he had given me the portrait, he took down the portrait and said that it was now his. He later felt guilty and let me borrow it for a few months. This happened over twenty years ago. This portrait is now in Northern California. My mother in law is also related to Victorianos mother.
R A Ricci

Estimado Adrian Marquez,
Muchas gracias por compartir esta informacion sobre la acta de Victoriano Ramirez.
Yo he buscado esta acta por mucho tempo. Aunque yo si creia que su padre se llama Carlos Ramirez, me molestaba no tener la acta porque hay personas que dicen que era hijo de otra persona. Con esta acta ya no hay ninguna duda sobre su informacion.
Muchismos gracias,
R A Ricci

Gracias por compartir esa informacion. El papa de Victoriano fue Carlos Ramirez Ramirez bautizado el siete de Noviembre 1861 hijo de Mariano Ramirez y Candelaria Ramirez. Abuelos Paternos: Pablo Ramires y Ynes Escoto, Abuelos Maternos: Eduwige Ramirez y Anita Ortega. La mayoria de los Ramirez nacieron en un pueblito llamado Sarteneja pegado a Ricon de Chavez y Buenavista en San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco.

Adrián Márquez Padilla

Continuando con el tema,gracias a Ismael Márquez que nos informa acerca de los padres de Carlos Ramirez Ramirez que fueron Mariano Ramirez y Candelaria Ramirez, los abuelos paternos: Pablo Ramires y Ynes Escoto

Pablo Ramires (José Pablo de San Román Ramírez Rueda, Bautizado el 2 de abril 1797 - San Miguel El Alto, Jalisco, México, hijo de Juan Joseph Ramírez de Hermosillo y de Anda Altamirano y Juliana Fernández de Rueda. Casado el 27 de mayo 1824, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México, con Inés Escoto Flores )

Acta de matrimonio: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18573-57531-31?cc=1874591&wc…

María Ygnes Escoto Flores, Nacida el martes, 19 de abril de 1808 en Agua de Obispo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco (México), Hija de Rafael de Escoto y Bartola Flores. Abuelos paternos: Mariano de Escoto y María Barajas... Abuelos Maternos: Jose Flores y Antonia de Alva..

Bautismo de Maria Ynes: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18569-60740-59?cc=1874591&wc…

760
Agua del Obispo
Mª Ygnes
Española
En primero de Mayo de Mil Ochocientos Ocho, Yo el Presbítero Bernardino Fregoso Teniente de Cura del señor Don Juan José María Mansilla Baptice, puse los Santos Oleos y Crisma a Maria Ygnes Española nacida el diez y nueve de Abril en el agua del Obispo, a las nueve de la noche, hija legitima de Rafael De Escoto y de Bartola Flores, Abuelos paternos y Maternos no lo expresaron por no conocerlos, padrinos Mariano Ornelas y Concepción Ornelas a quienes advertí su obligación y Espiritual parentesco y con el Sr. Cura lo firme. (Rubrica José María Mansilla - Bernardino Fregoso

Si alguien tiene a los padres de Mariano de Escoto y María Barajas, se agradece la información

Fuentes:
Retoños de España Tomo III pag. 305
Geneanet: familia:http://gw0.geneanet.org/arman212?lang=es;pz=joaquin;nz=antunano+villalo…

Saludos

Adrian Marquez Padilla

Disculpen si aparece un poco incompleto este reporte, pero para una presentar una síntesis rápida…aquí está esto.
__________________________________________________________________________

Antepasados de Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce"
Las Primeras Cinco Generaciones en resumen (Sin notas completas ni fuentes)

Ancestors of Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce"

Generation No. 1

1. Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce", born 23 Mar 1892 in El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died 17 Mar 1929 in Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México. He was the son of 2. Carlos Ramírez Ramírez and 3. Viviana López Zavala. He married (1) Crescencia Macías 17 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was born 1899 in El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México, and died Unknown. She was the daughter of Teodoro Macías and Pomposa Padilla.

More About Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce":
Note: El General Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce” fue un general Cristero y uno de los primeros en unirse a la lucha cristera; persona muy aventurera que gozaba de gran popularidad. Sus hazañas corrían de boca en boca hasta tornarse fabulosas.
Note 2: Sus restos descansan en las Catacumbas Guadalupanas, debajo del Templo de Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe, en la ciudad de San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco.
Residence: El Rancho de Buenavista, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Victoriano Ramírez López and Crescencia Macías:
Marriage: 17 Jun 1916, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

Generation No. 2

2. Carlos Ramírez Ramírez, born 4 Nov 1861 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 16 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. He was the son of 4. Mariano Ramírez Escoto and 5. María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega. He married 3. Viviana López Zavala 7 Apr 1880 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
3. Viviana López Zavala, born 29 Nov 1864 in La Mesa, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 16 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of 6. Francisco López Maciel and 7. María de Jesús Zavala Rocha.

More About Carlos Ramírez Ramírez:
Baptism: 7 Nov 1861, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence: El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Viviana López Zavala:
Baptism: 4 Dec 1864, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence 1: La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence 2: El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Carlos Ramírez Ramírez and Viviana López Zavala:
Marriage: 7 Apr 1880, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

Children of Carlos Ramírez Ramírez and Viviana López Zavala are:
i. Froilán Ramírez López, born 6 Oct 1881 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. Pedro Ramírez López, born 10 Sep 1886 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married N. González in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.

More About Pedro Ramírez López and N. González:
Marriage: San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

iii. Vicente Ramírez López, born 7 Apr 1889 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
1 iv. Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce", born 23 Mar 1892 in El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died 17 Mar 1929 in Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México; married Crescencia Macías 17 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
v. Paulina Ramírez López, born 25 Jun 1894 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

Generation No. 3

4. Mariano Ramírez Escoto, born 16 Jul 1836 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of 8. José-Pablo de San Ramón Ramírez and 9. María-Inés Escoto. He married 5. María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega 9 Jan 1861 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
5. María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega, born 2 Feb 1844 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of 10. José-Eduviges Ramírez and 11. María-Antonia de la Luz Ortega.

More About Mariano Ramírez Escoto:
Baptism: 23 Jul 1836, La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega:
Residence: La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Mariano Ramírez Escoto and María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega:
Marriage: 9 Jan 1861, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

Children of Mariano Ramírez Escoto and María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega are:
2 i. Carlos Ramírez Ramírez, born 4 Nov 1861 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 16 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married Viviana López Zavala 7 Apr 1880 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
ii. Domingo Ramírez, born 15 May 1864 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. Tomasa Ramírez, born 18 Sep 1866 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

6. Francisco López Maciel, born 24 Feb 1828 in El Rancho de Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of 12. José-Feliciano López and 13. María-Guadalupe Maciel. He married 7. María de Jesús Zavala Rocha 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
7. María de Jesús Zavala Rocha, born ca. 1833 in El Robadero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of 14. José-Marcos Zavala and 15. María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha.

More About Francisco López Maciel:
Baptism: 3 Mar 1828, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence: San Juanico, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Francisco López Maciel and María Zavala Rocha:
Marriage: 19 Feb 1851, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

Children of Francisco López Maciel and María Zavala Rocha are:
i. José de los Angeles López Zavala, born 8 Jul 1854 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. José-Cayetano López Zavala, born 7 Aug 1856 in El Aguila, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Cayetano López Zavala:
Baptism: 10 Aug 1856, Arandas, Jalisco, México

iii. Juana López Zavala, born 30 May 1859 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iv. Juliana López Zavala, born 2 Mar 1862 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
3 v. Viviana López Zavala, born 29 Nov 1864 in La Mesa, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 16 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married Carlos Ramírez Ramírez 7 Apr 1880 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
vi. José-Refugio López Zavala, born 14 Jul 1867 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

Generation No. 4

8. José-Pablo de San Ramón Ramírez, born 22 Mar 1797 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of 16. Juan-Joseph Miguel Ramírez-Martín and 17. María-Juliana Fernández de Rueda. He married 9. María-Inés Escoto 27 May 1824 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México.
9. María-Inés Escoto, born 19 Apr 1808 in El Agua del Obispo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of 18. Joseph-Rafael de Escoto y Tovar and 19. María-Bartola de los Dolores Flores.

More About José-Pablo de San Ramón Ramírez:
Name 2: Pablo Ramírez
Baptism: 2 Apr 1797, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence: El Agua del Obispo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

More About María-Inés Escoto:
Name 2: Ines Escoto
Baptism: 1 May 1808, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

More About José-Pablo Ramírez and María-Inés Escoto:
Marriage: 27 May 1824, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

Children of José-Pablo Ramírez and María-Inés Escoto are:
i. Secundino Ramírez, born 4 Jul 1828 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. Julián Ramírez, born 23 Feb 1831 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. Cirila Ramírez, born 13 Jul 1834 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
4 iv. Mariano Ramírez Escoto, born 16 Jul 1836 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega 9 Jan 1861 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
v. Teresa Ramírez, born 17 Oct 1841 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vi. Martina Ramírez, born 4 Feb 1845 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

10. José-Eduviges Ramírez, born 18 Oct 1805 in Los Adobes, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of 20. Joseph-Rafael Ramírez and 21. María-Teodosia Badajoz. He married 11. María-Antonia de la Luz Ortega 10 Nov 1841 in San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México.
11. María-Antonia de la Luz Ortega, born 1 Jun 1824 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of 22. José-Hermenegildo Ortega and 23. María-Luisa Castillo.

More About José-Eduviges Ramírez:
Baptism: 26 Oct 1805, San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence 1: Los Chicos, Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence 2: El Rincón de Velásquez, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence 3: El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Antonia de la Luz Ortega:
Baptism: 6 Jun 1824, San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Eduviges Ramírez and María-Antonia Ortega:
Marriage: 10 Nov 1841, San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

Children of José-Eduviges Ramírez and María-Antonia Ortega are:
i. Andrea de Jesús Ramírez, born 29 Nov 1842 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Andrea de Jesús Ramírez:
Name 2: María-Candelaria \Ramírez y Ortega\
Baptism: 7 Dec 1842, San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

5 ii. María-Candelaria Ramírez Ortega, born 2 Feb 1844 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married Mariano Ramírez Escoto 9 Jan 1861 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
iii. María de la Merced Ramírez, born 28 Sep 1845 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died 7 Aug 1875 in Santa Lucía, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; married Octaviano Aguirre 19 May 1865 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1841 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María de la Merced Ramírez:
Burial: 8 Aug 1875, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Octaviano Aguirre and María Ramírez:
Marriage: 19 May 1865, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

iv. Porfirio Ramírez, born 16 Sep 1847 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
v. Mónico Ramírez, born 9 May 1850 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vi. María-Isabel Ramírez, born 18 Jul 1853 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vii. Arcadio Ramírez, born 15 Jan 1856 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
viii. Juan Ramírez, born 7 Nov 1858 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

12. José-Feliciano López, born 17 May 1801 in El Salto Prieto, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 1857 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. He was the son of 24. Joseph-María López and 25. Micaela-Anastasia Vásquez. He married 13. María-Guadalupe Maciel 20 Aug 1821 in Parroquia de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México.
13. María-Guadalupe Maciel, born 12 Jul 1802 in La Campana, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Bef. 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of 26. Juan-Agustín de la Trinidad Maciel and 27. María de Jesús Flores Villalpando.

More About José-Feliciano López:
Baptism: 28 May 1801, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Note: Feliciano López, Mestizo/Español, originario del Salto Prieto, feligresía de San Miguel el Alto y vecino de la Joya, en Jalostotitlán, hijo legítimo de Don José María López y de Doña Micaela Anastasia Vásquez. Padrino de Bautizo: Don Ignacio López (sólo).
Note 2: No sabía firmar.
Residence: La Jolla, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Residence 1: Guadalajarita & El Rancho del Alto, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Guadalupe Maciel:
Baptism: 26 Jul 1802, Parroquia de Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco, México
Note: Doña María Guadalupe Maciel, Española, originaria de la Campana, en Arandas, y vecina de Matiga de Piedra, en Jalostotitlán; hija de Don Juan Agustín Maciel y de Doña María de Jesús Villalpando. Padrinos de Bautizo: Manuel y [¿?] Villalpando, cónyuges.
Residence: Matiga de Piedra, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Residence 1: Guadalajarita & El Rancho del Alto, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Feliciano López and María-Guadalupe Maciel:
Marriage: 20 Aug 1821, Parroquia de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Marriage Note: 1821; Fueron dispensados de un parentesco de consanguinidad en tercero grado igual. Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, Guadalajara, Jalisco, México.

Children of José-Feliciano López and María-Guadalupe Maciel are:
i. María-Feliciana López, born 1823 in La Cruz de Orozco, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married José-Rafael-Leandro Vásquez 26 May 1839 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 13 Mar 1814 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Feliciana López:
Name 2: Feliciana Lopez

More About José-Rafael-Leandro Vásquez:
Residence: San Juanico, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Rafael-Leandro Vásquez and María-Feliciana López:
Marriage: 26 May 1839, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Marriage Dispensation: 2 May 1839, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Marriage Note: Fueron dispensados de un parentesco en cuarto grado igual de consanguinidad.

ii. José-Dionisio López, born 8 Oct 1825 in Los Nogales, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Dionisio López:
Name 2: Dionisio Lopez
Baptism: 14 Oct 1825, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

6 iii. Francisco López Maciel, born 24 Feb 1828 in El Rancho de Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María de Jesús Zavala Rocha 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
iv. Marcelina López, born 1 Jun 1830 in Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married Miguel Valtierra 10 Jun 1850 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1828 in El Saucito, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Marcelina López:
Baptism: 6 Jun 1830, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence: San Juanico, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Miguel Valtierra and Marcelina López:
Marriage: 10 Jun 1850, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

v. Toribio López, born 15 Apr 1832 in Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Toribio López:
Baptism: 23 Apr 1832, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

vi. Epifanea López, born 26 Mar 1834 in Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vii. Alvino López, born 29 Feb 1836 in Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
viii. Inocencio López Maciel, born 3 Jan 1838 in El Rancho del Alto, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 9 Oct 1902 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; married María del Carmen Flores Angulo 30 Jan 1861 in Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 14 Jul 1843 in Buenavista, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 9 Oct 1902 in Arandas o Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México.

More About Inocencio López Maciel:
Baptism: 7 Jan 1838, Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Note: Inocencio López, originario del Rancho del Alto y vecino de Buenavista, ambos de la feligresía de San Miguel el Alto, hijo legítimo de Feliciano López y de María Guadalupe Maciel. Padrinos de Bautizo: Eutimio Santos y Bárbara Santos.
Note 2: My Abuelito Agustin clearly remembered him and his name, indicating he interacted with him and knew him. Therefore he must have died during my grandfather's lifetime.
Residence: Buenavista, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence 1: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María del Carmen Flores Angulo:
Baptism: 22 Jul 1843, Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Note: María del Carmen Flores, originaria y vecina de Buenavista, de la feligresía de San Miguel el Alto, hija legítima de Pascual Flores y de Juana Angulo. Padrinos de Bautizo: Don Antonio Angulo y doña Gregoria Gutiérrez.
Residence: El Rancho de Mariche, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Inocencio López Maciel and María Flores Angulo:
Marriage: 30 Jan 1861, Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

ix. María de Jesús López, born ca. 1840 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married José-Alvino Maciel Bef. Mar 1854 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1827 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María de Jesús López:
Date born 2: ca. 1836, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Alvino Maciel and María López:
Marriage: Bef. Mar 1854, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

x. Desideria López, born 10 Feb 1843 in La Mesa, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married Máximo García 16 May 1859 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 17 May 1838 in Jesús María, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Desideria López:
Baptism: 15 Feb 1843, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Residence: Jesús María, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Máximo García and Desideria López:
Marriage: 16 May 1859, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

14. José-Marcos Zavala, born 26 Apr 1794 in El Pastle, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. He was the son of 28. Cristóbal-Alejo Zavala and 29. Anna María de los Ríos. He married 15. María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha 28 Jul 1811 in Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México.
15. María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha, born 22 Oct 1794 in El Robadero, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of 30. Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and 31. María-Lucrecia Vásquez.

More About José-Marcos Zavala:
Baptism: 11 May 1794, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha:
Baptism: 7 Nov 1794, Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence: El Pastor, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Marcos Zavala and María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha:
Marriage: 28 Jul 1811, Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México

Children of José-Marcos Zavala and María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha are:
i. José-Máximo Zavala, born 30 Jan 1813 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. Mariano Zavala, born ca. 1815 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. María-Magdalena Zavala, born 21 Jul 1817 in El Río de Sánchez, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Magdalena Zavala:
Baptism: 28 Jul 1817, Arandas, Jalisco, México

iv. María de San Diego Zavala, born 28 Nov 1819 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
v. José-Martín Zavala, born 7 Aug 1822 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vi. María-Fulgencia Zavala, born 30 Jan 1825 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vii. María-Cresencia Zavala, born 13 May 1827 in San Diego de Alejandría, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
viii. Juana-María Zavala, born 24 Jun 1829 in El Jaltomate, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Juana-María Zavala:
Baptism: 6 Jul 1829, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

ix. María-Marta Zavala, born 12 Oct 1831 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
7 x. María de Jesús Zavala Rocha, born ca. 1833 in El Robadero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married Francisco López Maciel 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.

Generation No. 5

16. Juan-Joseph Miguel Ramírez-Martín, born 7 May 1754 in La Cajuela, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez. He married 17. María-Juliana Fernández de Rueda Bef. Jan 1783 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México.
17. María-Juliana Fernández de Rueda, born 11 Apr 1766 in La Sarteneja, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of Ignacio Rafael de San Ramón Fernández de Rueda and Casilda-Gertrudis de Alcalá.

More About Juan-Joseph Miguel Ramírez-Martín:
Baptism: 20 May 1754, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Residence: San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Juliana Fernández de Rueda:
Name 2: Juliana de \Rueda\
Baptism: 26 Apr 1766, Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Residence: La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Juan-Joseph Ramírez-Martín and María-Juliana Fernández de Rueda:
Marriage: Bef. Jan 1783, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

Children of Juan-Joseph Ramírez-Martín and María-Juliana Fernández de Rueda are:
i. José-Francisco Gerardo Ramírez, born 12 Oct 1783 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. María-Feliciana Ramírez, born 29 Nov 1785 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. Felipa Antonia Ramírez, born 28 Sep 1787 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iv. José-María Ramírez, born 17 Sep 1789 in La Zarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married Bruna Pedroza 24 Jan 1816 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1790 in El Sauz, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-María Ramírez:
Residence: La Cajuela, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

More About José-María Ramírez and Bruna Pedroza:
Marriage: 24 Jan 1816, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

v. José-Bautista Ramírez, born 8 Sep 1791 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vi. María de San Juan Nepomuceno Ramírez, born 27 May 1793 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
8 vii. José-Pablo de San Ramón Ramírez, born 22 Mar 1797 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Inés Escoto 27 May 1824 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México.
viii. Juana-María de Guadalupe Ramírez, born 26 May 1799 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Juana-María de Guadalupe Ramírez:
Baptism: 6 Jun 1799, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

ix. María-Josefa Filomena Ramírez, born 5 Jul 1802 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Josefa Filomena Ramírez:
Baptism: 8 Jul 1802, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

x. María-Benita de Jesús Ramírez, born 21 Mar 1805 in La Sarteneja, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Benita de Jesús Ramírez:
Baptism: 31 Mar 1805, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

xi. José-Prudenciano de Jesús Ramírez, born 30 May 1807 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
xii. María-Paula Ramírez, born 26 Mar 1810 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

18. Joseph-Rafael de Escoto y Tovar, born 12 Nov 1767 in La Sabanilla, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of Juan-Mariano de Escoto y Tovar and María Germana Barajas. He married 19. María-Bartola de los Dolores Flores 7 Apr 1788 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México.
19. María-Bartola de los Dolores Flores, born 28 Aug 1770 in El Paso Hondo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of Joseph Joaquín Flores and María-Antonia de Avalos.

More About Joseph-Rafael de Escoto y Tovar:
Baptism: 23 Nov 1767, San Agustín, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México
Residence: El Puesto de La Matagorda, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

More About María-Bartola de los Dolores Flores:
Baptism: 12 Sep 1770, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Residence: Las Sardinas, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

More About Joseph-Rafael Escoto y Tovar and María-Bartola Flores:
Marriage: 7 Apr 1788, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Marriage Dispensation: 1788, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Marriage Note: Fueron dispensados de un impedimento por parentesco de consanguinidad en tercero con cuarto grado.

Children of Joseph-Rafael Escoto y Tovar and María-Bartola Flores are:
i. José-Francisco Nepomuceno Escoto, born 4 Oct 1790 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. José-Martín Guadalupe Escoto, born 24 Nov 1792 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. Juan-Bautista Escoto, born 8 Sep 1794 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iv. José-María de Jesús Escoto, born 20 Feb 1797 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
v. José-Antonio Escoto, born 11 Sep 1799 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vi. María-Eusebia Escoto, born 2 Apr 1802 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vii. María-Matiana Escoto, born 11 Feb 1805 in El Agua del Obispo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Matiana Escoto:
Baptism: 5 Mar 1805, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

9 viii. María-Inés Escoto, born 19 Apr 1808 in El Agua del Obispo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married José-Pablo de San Ramón Ramírez 27 May 1824 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México.

20. Joseph-Rafael Ramírez, born 24 Oct 1763 in El Troje, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 25 Jan 1836 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México. He was the son of Francisco Ramírez and María-Marcelina Camarena. He married 21. María-Teodosia Badajoz Bef. Apr 1794 in Arandas, Jalisco, México.
21. María-Teodosia Badajoz, born 7 Jun 1775 in El Troje, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Bef. 25 Jan 1836 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of Joseph-Domingo Badajoz and María-Antonia Rizo.

More About Joseph-Rafael Ramírez:
Name 2: Rafael Ramírez
Baptism: 6 Nov 1763, San Agustín, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México
Residence: Los Adobes, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Teodosia Badajoz:
Name 2: Teodosia Badajoz
Baptism: 7 Jun 1775, Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Joseph-Rafael Ramírez and María-Teodosia Badajoz:
Marriage: Bef. Apr 1794, Arandas, Jalisco, México

Children of Joseph-Rafael Ramírez and María-Teodosia Badajoz are:
i. José-Teodoro Ramírez, born 10 Jan 1795 in San Francisco de los Ocotes, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Teodoro Ramírez:
Baptism: 19 Jan 1795, Arandas, Jalisco, México

ii. Pedro Alcantar Ramírez, born 30 Oct 1796 in Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. María-Vicenta Ramírez, born 26 Oct 1798 in Santiaguito, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Vicenta Ramírez:
Baptism: 6 Nov 1798, Arandas, Jalisco, México

iv. María-Isidora Ramírez, born 2 Jan 1801 in Los Chicos, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Isidora Ramírez:
Baptism: 10 Jan 1801, Arandas, Jalisco, México

10 v. José-Eduviges Ramírez, born 18 Oct 1805 in Los Adobes, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Antonia de la Luz Ortega 10 Nov 1841 in San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México.
vi. José-Pablo Ramírez, born 1 Feb 1808 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vii. María-Zenona Ramírez, born 28 Jun 1810 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
viii. José-Tiburcio Ramírez, born 22 Aug 1813 in Buenavista, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Máxima Ortega 25 Jan 1836 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 1817 - 1818 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Tiburcio Ramírez:
Residence: El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Tiburcio Ramírez and María-Máxima Ortega:
Marriage: 25 Jan 1836, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

ix. José-Silverio Ramírez, born 7 Aug 1816 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
x. María-Antonia de Jesús Ramírez, born 14 May 1820 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

22. José-Hermenegildo Ortega, born ca. 1775 in El Potrero, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México. He was the son of N. Hernández and María-Isabel Ortega. He married 23. María-Luisa Castillo 10 Apr 1799 in San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México.
23. María-Luisa Castillo, born ca. 1780 in El Río de los Sánchez, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of Marcelo Castillo and María-Juliana de la Encarnación Gallegos-Infante.

More About José-Hermenegildo Ortega:
Date born 2: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
Died 2: Bef. 25 Jan 1836, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Luisa Castillo:
Name 2: Maria-Luisa Castillo
Date born 2: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
Died 2: Bef. 25 Jan 1836, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Hermenegildo Ortega and María-Luisa Castillo:
Marriage 1: 10 Apr 1799, San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
Marriage 2: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

Children of José-Hermenegildo Ortega and María-Luisa Castillo are:
i. María-Alvina Ortega, born 9 Dec 1799 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
ii. José-Pablo Ortega, born 26 Jan 1801 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. María-Luisa Ortega, born 26 Aug 1805 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iv. José-Luperto Ortega, born 2 Apr 1808 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
v. José-Vicente Ferrer Ortega, born 4 Apr 1811 in El Salitrillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Vicente Ferrer Ortega:
Baptism: 10 Apr 1811, San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

vi. Pedro José Regalado Ortega, born 25 May 1812 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
vii. María-Leonarda Ortega, born 12 Nov 1814 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
viii. María-Máxima Ortega, born 1817 - 1818 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married José-Tiburcio Ramírez 25 Jan 1836 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 22 Aug 1813 in Buenavista, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Tiburcio Ramírez:
Residence: El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Tiburcio Ramírez and María-Máxima Ortega:
Marriage: 25 Jan 1836, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

ix. Juan-Francisco Ortega, born 29 Jan 1821 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
11 x. María-Antonia de la Luz Ortega, born 1 Jun 1824 in El Saucillo, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married José-Eduviges Ramírez 10 Nov 1841 in San Miguel Arcángel, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México.
xi. José-Tomás Ortega, born 21 Sep 1828 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

24. Joseph-María López, born 27 Oct 1752 in La Cajuela, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 1803 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. He was the son of Jacinto López de los Reyes and Luisa Manuela de la Cruz. He married 25. Micaela-Anastasia Vásquez Bef. Jul 1787 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
25. Micaela-Anastasia Vásquez, born 29 Sep 1764 in El Cerro del Carretero, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 25 Jun 1803 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of Cristóbal Manuel Vásquez and Ascencia Manuela Maciel.

More About Joseph-María López:
Baptism: 6 Nov 1752, Parroquia de San Juan Bautista, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Note: José María López, Mestizo/indio, orig de La Cajuela, Pueblo de San Juan de los Lagos, y vec de San Miguel el Alto; hijo leg de Jacinto López de los Reyes y de Luisa Manuela de la Cruz; Padrinos: Juan Agustín Muñoz y Rosa Matilde Muñoz.
Residence: El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Micaela-Anastasia Vásquez:
Baptism: 14 Oct 1764, Parroquia de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Note: Micaela Anastasia Vásquez, mestiza/Española; originaria y vecina del Cerro del Carretero, de la feligresía de Jalostotitlán; hija legítima de Cristóbal Manuel Vásquez y de Asencia Manuela Maciel; Padrinos de bautizo: Jacinto Lozano y María Lozano.
Residence: El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Joseph-María López and Micaela-Anastasia Vásquez:
Marriage: Bef. Jul 1787, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
Marriage Note: Married before July 1787, possibly in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco. LOOK FOR MARRIAGE IN SAN JUAN DE LOS LAGOS.

Children of Joseph-María López and Micaela-Anastasia Vásquez are:
i. María-Rafaela López, born 17 Apr 1788 in El Cerro del Carretero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married Isidro Villegas 26 Apr 1807 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1780 in Jalpa, San Diego de Alejandría, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Isidro Villegas:
Residence: Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Isidro Villegas and María-Rafaela López:
Marriage: 26 Apr 1807, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México

ii. María-Dionisia de San Juan López, born 18 Jan 1792 in El Cerro del Carretero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. José-Cruz López, born 29 Sep 1793 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iv. María de Jesús López, born 15 Sep 1795 in El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
v. María-Faustina López, born 17 Dec 1797 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
12 vi. José-Feliciano López, born 17 May 1801 in El Salto Prieto, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 1857 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married (1) María-Guadalupe Maciel 20 Aug 1821 in Parroquia de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; married (2) María de Jesús Ramírez Bef. Oct 1856 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México.
vii. Juan-Pablo López, born 25 Jun 1803 in El Tecomate, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

26. Juan-Agustín de la Trinidad Maciel, born 31 Aug 1765 in Los Patos, Santa María de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 1811 in Arandas, Jalisco, México. He was the son of Juan-Manuel Maciel and Petronila García. He married 27. María de Jesús Flores Villalpando Bef. Mar 1796 in Arandas, Jalisco, México.
27. María de Jesús Flores Villalpando, born ca. 1776 in El Cabrito, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Aft. Apr 1811 in Arandas, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of Joseph-Antonio Flores Villalpando and María-Gertrudis Pérez.

More About Juan-Agustín de la Trinidad Maciel:
Baptism: 15 Sep 1765, Parroquia de Santa María de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, México
Note: Don Juan Agustín Maciel, Español; originario de Los Patos, en la Villa de Lagos, y vecino de la Ayuda de Parroquia de Arandas; hijo legítimo de don Juan Manuel Maciel y Petronila García; Madrina de bautizo: María Magdalena García (sola) vec. del Matorral.
Residence: Arandas, Jalisco, México

More About María de Jesús Flores Villalpando:
Name 2: María-Jesús Flores
Name 3: María-Jesús Villalpando
Note: Doña María de Jesús Flores Villalpando, Española, originaria y vecina del Pueblo de Arandas; hija legítima de don Joseph Antonio Flores Villalpando y de doña María Gertrudis Pérez.
Residence: La Campana, Arandas, Jalisco, México

More About Juan-Agustín Maciel and María Flores Villalpando:
Marriage: Bef. Mar 1796, Arandas, Jalisco, México

Children of Juan-Agustín Maciel and María Flores Villalpando are:
i. José-Damacio Maciel, born 10 Dec 1796 in El Mentidero, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María de San Juan González 11 Nov 1818 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 17 Aug 1798 in El Tigre, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Damacio Maciel:
Baptism: 22 Dec 1796, Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María de San Juan González:
Baptism: 26 Aug 1798, Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About José-Damacio Maciel and María González:
Marriage: 11 Nov 1818, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

ii. Juan-Joseph Maciel, born 8 Jul 1798 in La Campana, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Faustina Aguilar 14 Sep 1822 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1800 in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán, México; died Unknown.

More About Juan-Joseph Maciel:
Baptism: 23 Jul 1798, Arandas, Jalisco, México

More About María-Faustina Aguilar:
Residence: Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Juan-Joseph Maciel and María-Faustina Aguilar:
Marriage: 14 Sep 1822, Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

iii. Pedro Maciel, born 14 Dec 1800 in La Campana, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married (1) Josefa Cuéllar ca. 1825 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1805 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Bef. 1830 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married (2) María-Gregoria Padilla 2 Jun 1830 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; born 22 Nov 1810 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Pedro Maciel:
Residence: San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Pedro Maciel and Josefa Cuéllar:
Marriage: ca. 1825, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

13 iv. María-Guadalupe Maciel, born 12 Jul 1802 in La Campana, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Bef. 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married José-Feliciano López 20 Aug 1821 in Parroquia de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México.
v. José-Francisco Maciel, born 28 May 1804 in La Campana, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Ignacia Ruiz 6 Oct 1827 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1809 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Francisco Maciel:
Name 2: Francisco Maciel
Baptism: 29 May 1804, Arandas, Jalisco, México

More About María-Ignacia Ruiz:
Name 2: Ignacia Ruiz

More About José-Francisco Maciel and María-Ignacia Ruiz:
Marriage: 6 Oct 1827, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México

vi. María-Gertrudis Maciel, born 27 Dec 1806 in Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married (1) Luis Antonio Velásquez 1 Mar 1824 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; born 10 Mar 1769 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married (2) Rafael Ruiz 29 Feb 1832 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; born ca. 1804 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About Rafael Ruiz and María-Gertrudis Maciel:
Marriage: 29 Feb 1832, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México

vii. José-Perfecto Maciel, born 28 Apr 1811 in Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

28. Cristóbal-Alejo Zavala, born ca. 1756 in El Pastle, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. He was the son of Víctor Aparicio Zavala and Anna Rosalía de Rivas. He married 29. Anna María de los Ríos 6 May 1778 in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México.
29. Anna María de los Ríos, born 14 Jul 1758 in El Tecolote, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of Antonio de los Ríos and Juana-Ignacia de los Angeles Martín.

More About Cristóbal-Alejo Zavala:
Name 2: Alejo Zavala
Residence: San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Anna María de los Ríos:
Baptism: 19 Jul 1758, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Residence 1: Las Calabazas, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México
Residence 2: El Pastle, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Cristóbal-Alejo Zavala and Anna Ríos:
Marriage: 6 May 1778, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México

Children of Cristóbal-Alejo Zavala and Anna Ríos are:
i. José-Vicente Ferrer Víctor Zavala, born 19 Apr 1779 in El Pastle, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married María-Rosalía Zavala 22 Feb 1803 in Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México; born 1786 in El Pastle, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Vicente Ferrer Víctor Zavala:
Note: No sabía firmar.
Residence: Arandas, Jalisco, México

More About María-Rosalía Zavala:
Residence: Arandas, Jalisco, México

More About José-Vicente Zavala and María-Rosalía Zavala:
Marriage: 22 Feb 1803, Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Marriage Dispensation: 11 May 1802, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México
Marriage Note: Fueron dispensados de un parentesco en segundo grado igual de consanguinidad.

ii. María-Guadalupe Feliciana Zavala, born 12 Dec 1786 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
iii. María-Fabiana Zavala, born ca. 1788 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown; married José-Potenciano Vásquez ca. 1805 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; born 8 Dec 1774 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José-Potenciano Vásquez and María-Fabiana Zavala:
Marriage: ca. 1805, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

14 iv. José-Marcos Zavala, born 26 Apr 1794 in El Pastle, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha 28 Jul 1811 in Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México.

30. Francisco Madrid de la Rocha, born ca. 1767 in Guanajuato, Guanajuato, México; died Unknown. He was the son of Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and Antonia Teresa Rangel. He married 31. María-Lucrecia Vásquez Bef. Jan 1794 in Arandas, Jalisco, México.
31. María-Lucrecia Vásquez, born ca. 1768 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México; died Unknown. She was the daughter of Luis Antonio Gonzaga Vásquez and Anna-Marcela Díaz.

More About Francisco Madrid de la Rocha:
Residence 1: Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence 2: El Robadero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About María-Lucrecia Vásquez:
Residence 1: Arandas, Jalisco, México
Residence 2: El Robadero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

More About Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and María-Lucrecia Vásquez:
Marriage: Bef. Jan 1794, Arandas, Jalisco, México

Children of Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and María-Lucrecia Vásquez are:
15 i. María-Rafaela Madrid de la Rocha, born 22 Oct 1794 in El Robadero, Arandas, Jalisco, México; died Aft. 19 Feb 1851 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; married José-Marcos Zavala 28 Jul 1811 in Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México.
ii. María-Francisca Rocha, born 3 Apr 1799 in El Robadero, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About María-Francisca Rocha:
Baptism: 18 Apr 1799, San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

iii. José de Jesús Rocha, born 17 Oct 1801 in El Pastor, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.

More About José de Jesús Rocha:
Baptism: 1 Nov 1801, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México

iv. Jose-Damacio Guadalupe Madrid de la Rocha, born 17 Dec 1803 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
v. María de San José Rocha, born 29 Sep 1806 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died Unknown.
________________________________________________________________________________
Más tarde publicaré esta misma genealogía en SIETE generaciones, ampliada con fotografías, copias de los textos originales y fuentes documentales.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Congratulations
Estimado Steve,

You have done magnificent work. I thank you so much for sharing. My desire to research "Victoriano el Catorce" was because I wanted to know exactly how he was related either to me or my wife. My wife's grandfather had stated that he knew him and that not only was he a friend but a relative also. You have provided the proof that I could not find. Her grandfather descends from Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and Maria Lucrecia Vasquez. Do you have more information on this couples ancestors? I had completed a couple more generations on Maria Lucrecia Vasquez line but hit a roadblock on Francisco Madrid de la Rocha.

I descend from a branch of the Ramirez from San Miguel el Alto but I am going to have to look at more closely to see if there is any connection. I descend from a Nicolas Ramirez.

I want to reward you for this work. I am going to treat you to dinner to celebrate.
Keep up your excellent and inspirational work primo,

Rick

Gracias por los elogios y la ayuda que estos datos les puedan brindar a los que estén interesados en Victoriano Ramírez López, “El Catorce”.

Glad they were useful to you. What I posted was an experiment…an exercise to see how it would look. It was ONLY the first FIVE generations of his ancestry. And yes!!! I have done more research. I am amplifying the basic report and “playing” with options, features, items to include, sources, notes, and images. It would look nicer as a PDF with pictures and transcribed documents and pedigree charts. Which of course gave me the idea, “¿Por qué no?” An expanded report with a table of contents indicating each of the generations, specific ancestors in bold print, all the corresponding sources, images, and documents, would not only make a great resource for Nuestros Ranchos, but also of a book. It has given me ideas as to how to share/publish what I have researched.

This gave me the idea to begin a series called “LAS GENEALOGIAS DE ALTEÑOS ILUSTRES” where I would provide a very thorough analysis of the genealogy a particular “Alteño/Alteña Ilustre” or, if not technically an Alteño/a, then at least descending from Alteño patriarchal families. This latter category would include the ancestries of Mariano Guadalupe Vallejo, general of Alta California, Jaime Holcombe-Isunza, Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, father of Mexican Independence, and José López Portillo, (ex) Presidente de México. That would present a great way for me to share what I have researched and share it with all Alteños.

En lo que se trata a Victoriano Ramírez López, “El Catorce”…his direct paternal ancestry presents us with the correction of a widely published error which I want to bring out to the light so it can be demolished. In Generation 5, ancestor #16, “Juan-Joseph Miguel Ramírez-Martín, born 7 May 1754 in La Cajuela, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México. He was the son of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez.” Most have correct data up to him and that’s all, because beyond him…is a mystery!!! The direct paternal ancestry of Ramírez…viene de un “hijo de padres no conocidos”…so there it ends.

You see in the marriage record of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez in 1744 in San Juan de los Lagos, it clearly reads that Miguel Ramírez-Martín was “hijo de padres no conocidos”—they are not mentioned at all. Miguel was mentioned in his marriage acta as “Miguel MARTÍN” and other times as “Miguel Martín del Campo”. I believe his natural mother was a Martín del Campo. Several baptismal entries refer to Miguel as Miguel Martín. A few and then years later, the surname RAMÍREZ appears in usage. This makes me think that later Miguel recognized his natural father’s parentage and began to use Ramírez. I don’t know if the surname is actually Ramírez de Hermosillo, or some “other” Ramírez. That is why I refer to this individual and his generation as Ramírez-Martín, because both surnames were used. If there is a Dispensa where both the Ramírez-Martín connections are explained, I have not yet found it.

López de los Reyes is the surname that connects me with El Catorce. It is both of our maternal ancestral surnames. As such, we share the same ancestors starting with Generation No. 3, (#6) Francisco López Maciel, and more precisely Generation No. 4, (#12 and #13, and all subsequent ancestors…12x2=24 & 25; 13x2=26 &27…and so on). Francisco López Maciel is the brother of my great-great grandfather, Inocencio López Maciel.

I do not have Francisco Madrid de la Rocha as an ancestor, nor have I really investigated his origins in Guanajuato, but I have of María-Lucrecia Vásquez, born ca. 1768 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México. She was the daughter of Luis Antonio Gonzaga Vásquez y Machuca and Anna-Marcela Díaz y Rizo. Luis Antonio Gonzaga Vásquez’s Vásquez ancestors are my ancestors also. I descend from Cristóbal Vásquez and Petronila Padilla, vecinos de Jalostotitlán.

Hasta pronto,
Steven Francisco Hernández López

En lo que se trata a Victoriano Ramírez López, “El Catorce”…his direct paternal ancestry presents us with the correction of a widely published error which I want to bring out to the light so it can be demolished.

In Generation 5, ancestor #16, “Juan-Joseph Miguel Ramírez-Martín, born 7 May 1754 in La Cajuela, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México. He was the son of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez.” That is CORRECT, but most have INCORRECT data on him and beyond him…is a mystery!!! The direct paternal ancestry of Ramírez…viene de un “hijo de padres no conocidos”…so there it ends.

You see in the marriage record of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez in 1744 in San Juan de los Lagos, it clearly reads that Miguel Ramírez-Martín was “hijo de padres no conocidos”—they are not mentioned at all. Miguel was mentioned in his marriage acta as “Miguel MARTÍN” and other times as “Miguel Martín del Campo”. I believe his natural mother was a Martín del Campo. Several baptismal entries refer to Miguel as Miguel Martín. A few and then years later, the surname RAMÍREZ appears in usage. This makes me think that later Miguel recognized his natural father’s parentage and began to use Ramírez. I don’t know if the surname is actually Ramírez de Hermosillo, or some “other” Ramírez. That is why I refer to this individual and his generation as Ramírez-Martín, because both surnames were used. If there is a Dispensa where both the Ramírez-Martín connections are explained, I have not yet found it.

What do y'all think?

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Thank you again for sharing Steve,
I have a possible correction or maybe I am in error, plus a few other facts.
First the discrepancy
I have Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha as the son of Josef Andres Madrid de la Rocha and his wife Antonia Teresa Rangel (you have him as the son of another Francisco Madrid de la Rocha.)
Now for the additions:
1) Jose Damacio de Guadalupe c. 17dec1803 married to Maria Viviana Hernandez on 7feb1842 in San Miguel el Alto
2) Ma.Josefa Rocha married on 27apr1811 to Marcelino Lupercio in San Miguel el Alto
3) Jose de Jesus Rocha c.1nov1801 married on 9may1821 to Estefana Reynoso in Jalostotitlan
4) Maria Francisca Rocha c.18apr1799 married on 18Jan1824 to Agustin Padilla in Jalostotitlan
5) Ma.Bacilia Rocha married Dionisio Sanchez on 27oct1807 in Jalostotitlan
6) Ma. Rafaela Rocha c. 7nov1794 in Arandas and married to Jose Marcos Zavala (Sabala) on 28jul1811 in Jalostotitlan
7) Maria de San Jose Rocha c. 29sep1805

Jose Damacio de Gpe Madrid de la Rocha is the father of Cecilio Rocha married 11May 1870 Petra (Petronila) Aldana (daughter of Jose Manuel Aldana and Maria Trinidad Ramirez
They are the parents of Ciriaco Rocha born 1871 in San Miguel el Alto and married to Maximiana Gutierrez Campos(daughter of Felipe de Jesus Gutierrez ( son of Bacilio Gutierrez and Maria de Jesus Munoz) and Maria Campos (Martin del Campo-Pedrosa)( daughter of Jose Luis Deonicio Martin del Campo and Ma. Vicenta Florencia Pedrosa
This was the second marriage for both Ciriaco and Maximiana
They were the parents of Margarita Rocha Gutierrez who married Paulo (Pablo) Lomelin
Pablo Lomeli (n) and Margarita are my wife's maternal grandparents.
It was my wife's maternal grandmother that is related to you and el Catorce, not her maternal grandfather. He said that Victoriano was his friend. Pablo Lomelin was in his nineties when I met him about 30 years ago. He still sometimes added the n to Lomeli.
Maximianas first marriage was to Doroteo Vasquez and they had a son Jose Ysabel Vasquez Gutierrez

Maria Viviana Hernandez was baptized on the 8Jan1817 in Jalostotitlan
I only had Luis Antonio Vasquez s parents I did not have Ana Marsela Maria Diaz parents.

I wonder how often you come up related to my wife.
Thanks again for contributing so much of your work
Rick A Ricci

This descendancy is not complete. The major focus in its compilation was to connect Jose Damacio Madrid de la Rocha Vasquez to my wife's maternal grandmother, Margarita Rocha Gutierrez.

Jose Damacio de Guadalupe Madrid de la Rocha Vasquez
Baptized 17/Dec/1803 in SanMiguel el Alto (hijo de Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha ( originalmente Rocha de la Madrid) Rangel y Maria Lucrecia Vasquez Diaz
Married twice,

First marriage on 10/Nov/1825 in San Miguel el Alto to Maria de Jesus Gonzalez y Rodriguez ( hija de Manuel Gonzalez y Maria Josefa Rodriguez)
1) Teodocia Madrid de la Rocha ( I believe she is from the first marriage)

Second marriage on 7/Feb/1812 to Maria Viviana Hernandez Ibarra (hija de Domingo Hernandez Gamino Llamas y Maria Gertrudis Elias Ibarra Plasencia)
Issue from 2nd marriage:
1) Cecilo Rocha married on 11/May/1870 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco to Petra (Petronila) Aldana ( hija de Jose Manuel Aldana Lopez y Maria Trinidad Ramirez y Martin) (Jose Manuel es hijo de Jose Manuel Aldana Peres y Maria Antonia Lopez Vasquez)
(Maria Antonia Lopez Vasquez is from San Juan de Los Lagos and I believe is related to Steven Hernandez's family)
2) Marselo Rocha baptized on 20/Jan/1856 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco.

Cecilo Rocha and Petronila Aldana are the parents of :
1) Ciriaco Rocha is born in 1871 in San Miguel el Alto, married multiple times
One of his marriages was to Maximiana Gutierrez Campos ( hija de Felipe Gutierrez Munoz y Maria Campos Pedrosa.) (Felipe es hijo de Bacilio Gutierrez y Maria de Jesus Munoz) (Maria Campos es hija de Jose Luis Deonicio Martin Del Campo Munoz de Nava y Maria Vicenta Florencia Pedrosa Gonzalez
Jose Luis Deonicio is baptized 17/Oct/1822 (es hijo de Jose Francisco de la Trinidad Martin del Campo Munoz de Nava y Maria Petrona de la Trinidad Munoz de Nava Marquez) (Jose Francisco de la T. es hijo deJose Antonio Martin del Campo Romo y M. Munoz de Nava Garcia de Hermosillo)
Maximiana Gutierrez Campos was a widow when she married Ciriaco Rocha. Her first husband is Doroteo Vasquez. They had a son named Jose Ysabel Vasquez.

2) Cresencio Rocha Aldana baptized 25/Apr/1880 in San Miguel el Alto

3) Antonio Rocha Aldana

4) Jose Rocha Aldana baptized 21/Mar/1886 in San Miguel el Alto

5) Pedro Rocha Aldana baptized 18 /May /1888 in San Miguel el Alto

6) Maria Cruz Rocha Aldana baptized 20/Jul/1890 in San Miguel el Alto

Ciriaco Rocha Aldana and Maximiana Gutierrez Campos are the parents of
1) Margarita Rocha Gutierrez born 22/Feb/1910 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco

Margarita Rocha Gutierrez marries Paulo (Pablo) Lomelin

These two are my wife's maternal grandparents.

R.A.Ricci

Hello Steve,

I believe that your explanation of the Ramirez Martin last names is correct. This same explanation is used in my records to explain a line of the Lomelin De La Cruz married also to a Marquez. This marriage actually gave a partial explanation of how they were related so the padre desconocidos grandfather is revealed. A full explanation of the relationship between bride and groom wasn't given but did state that they were 3rd cousins which leads to skipping a generation for the groom. His grandfather is listed only as Lomelin with no first name but we can deduce who this unknowns grandfather by the relationship degree given.

Another case of padres desconocido is the one of Francisco Madrid de la Rocha Rangel I remember seeing a record that said that but then I found the marriage dispensation that lists his parents.

My wife also has a Ramirez Martin ancestral line about the same time and same place but in this case the father Jose Maria Ramirez is the one with padres desconocidos.

R A Ricci

I went back and looked at my information and my roadblock is not on Francisco Madrid de la Rocha, but his father Andres Madrid de la Rocha. A few years back I had originally had Francisco as the son of another Francisco but I corrected this data when, thanks to Claudia, I found their marriage dispensation. I believe that we both originally may have been misinformed by Jaime Holcombe. I found the marriage dispensation with the same film # as Salvador Clemente De La Torre' s marriage dispensation. (1787 film # 168072), (image 237). I was sidetracked and have never printed out the dispensation or read it entirely. I forgot completely about it and had only added Andres and his wife to my family tree. Lucrecias info in my tree is only what was in their marriage record. I will print the dispensation and decipher it hopefully this week. I bet I was so happy to find Salvador Clemente de la Torre s marriage dispensation that I put francisco and Lucrecias aside and forgot to get back to it. I had been looking for Salvador Clemente de la Torre's information for decades.

One record does look like it says Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha but looking at other records where the writing is clearer I believe it says Andres instead of Francisco. The author writes his A with a flourish that is more common as an F and the smudge in the ink makes it look more like Francisco.
R A Ricci

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R.A.Ricci (not verified)

14 years 7 months ago

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Mariano Gonzalez leal names the parents of Victoriano. He has a different name, carlos, for the father than other people have that claim to be his nephews and nieces. they claim the father's name is gabriel ramirez. Does anyone have anything else to add? does anyone have a marriage record of Victoriano's marriages?

R.A.Ricci

Genealogy Research