Online Status
Please call Carlos Yturralde and let him know we are interested in this project.
From: Carlos Yturralde [mailto:cmyturralde@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 12:54 PM
To: Clean@h2opodcast.com
Subject: Fojas Perdidas
Hi Joseph,
The Hispanic Heritage Project has just started a project called “Fojas Perdidas.” We as researchers will come against a wall where the paper trail has come to an abrupt end where there are no records. Our quest is to find those records.
For those of us who are doing Hispanic research in Mexico, we use FamilySearch, which is our greatest source of information. We are eternally grateful for the work that the Utah Genealogy Society has done in microfilming the Catholic sacramental records as well as the Priest who diligently recorded that history. We likewise are indebted to FamilySearch in digitizing those records and continuing imaging more records and having access to those images online.
What most researchers are not aware of is that when the Utah Genealogy Society microfilmed the parish records, they filmed the copies that were kept in the diocese. As is the practice, the Church requires each parish to create two copies. One is kept at the parish and the other sent to the diocese archive. We have found that sometimes not all the copies made their way to the diocese and are still in the parishes not yet filmed or imaged. These are the missing records we shall find and image. In a few cases there were small parishes that were not filed at all. Our goal is to identify those fojas perdidas and work to get them online.
This requires a small pueblito. We have a volunteer camera operator to image the records, but we need volunteers to create tables of content of the images that are online. Then the camera operator can use it to identify the missing records so they can then be imaged and made available on FamilySearch. Since one of the areas we are looking into is Jalisco we are hoping maybe Nuestros Ranchos would join our effort. Give it some thought and if you think that is possible please give me a call.
Carlos Yturralde
Hispanic Heritage Project
760-484-6528
Fojas Perdidas
Jaime Trejo
Do you know which records were transcribed first, the parish records or the records sent to the diocese?
Ejutla, Jalisco
This would be wonderful, I^m sure each of us would benefit. Currently Im in Jalisco and was given the extraordinary opportunity by the Parish Priest to search the original files. Unfortunately they were exactly the ones that are online with Familysearch. However, on the top shelf there were several packages of documents whose exact contents were unknown, but too old and delicate to touch!!!
Deedra Corona
Ejutla, Jalisco
I thought when I was in Mexico that seeing the "real" records would be better than on Familysearch.. I found I was wrong.
We were in El Grullo, Jalisco where my cousins husband's who's Santana family was from. We went to the parish and the priest said absolutely NO to seeing the records. After talking with us the priest discovered he was related to him through the Santana's. Albert explained he was looking for a marriage record that was not listed online, the priest pulled down that marriage book and it was wrapped in cellophane. When we opened it the pages turned to dust and we asked the priest to please close the book. It was terrible to see history turning to dust before our eyes.
In Ciudad Gusman, Jalisco they would not let us look at the books, they just took the information and put it on a form. I actually got more information online than from them. In Tamazula, Jalisco they were too busy and understaffed to help us and told us to leave a request and they would get back to us, they never did. In Jerez, Zac the same, too busy but they did say there was once a room with books and records strewn on the floor that were moldy and never copied by anyone.
So I was not one of the lucky ones to see the original books but thank God for Familysearch!
Linda in Olympia, Wa
On Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:21 AM, "zapvive1@msn.com" wrote:
This would be wonderful, I^m sure each of us would benefit. Currently Im in Jalisco and was given the extraordinary opportunity by the Parish Priest to search the original files. Unfortunately they were exactly the ones that are online with Familysearch. However, on the top shelf there were several packages of documents whose exact contents were unknown, but too old and delicate to touch!!!
Deedra Corona
Ejutla, Jalisco
Thank you for sharing a great story, Erlinda! This reemphasizes the importance of the records digitizing that we can access through FamilySearch at home. However, this not negate actual field research like your Mexico church visits.
Keep up your great family history research. It is an inspiration to many.
Paul J Gomez
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 8:29 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long wrote:
>
> I thought when I was in Mexico that seeing the "real" records would be better than on Familysearch.. I found I was wrong.
> We were in El Grullo, Jalisco where my cousins husband's who's Santana family was from. We went to the parish and the priest said absolutely NO to seeing the records. After talking with us the priest discovered he was related to him through the Santana's. Albert explained he was looking for a marriage record that was not listed online, the priest pulled down that marriage book and it was wrapped in cellophane. When we opened it the pages turned to dust and we asked the priest to please close the book. It was terrible to see history turning to dust before our eyes.
> In Ciudad Gusman, Jalisco they would not let us look at the books, they just took the information and put it on a form. I actually got more information online than from them. In Tamazula, Jalisco they were too busy and understaffed to help us and told us to leave a request and they would get back to us, they never did. In Jerez, Zac the same, too busy but they did say there was once a room with books and records strewn on the floor that were moldy and never copied by anyone.
> So I was not one of the lucky ones to see the original books but thank God for Familysearch!
> Linda in Olympia, Wa
>
>
> On Thursday, June 12, 2014 5:21 AM, "zapvive1@msn.com" wrote:
>
>
>
> This would be wonderful, I^m sure each of us would benefit. Currently Im in Jalisco and was given the extraordinary opportunity by the Parish Priest to search the original files. Unfortunately they were exactly the ones that are online with Familysearch. However, on the top shelf there were several packages of documents whose exact contents were unknown, but too old and delicate to touch!!!
> Deedra Corona
>
Compile List
If this project goes (and I hope it does!) forward then maybe we could compile a list here at Nuestros Racnhos of towns that we have found to be most incomplete in their available records.
One in particular comes to mind from my research: Villa de Purificación, Jalisco (or simply, Purificación). It is one of the oldest towns in Jalisco and yet its records available on Familysearch are spotty and only go back to the 1770s. For example, baptismal records start in 1779, Marriages in 1832, and Death records in 1853.
If there are more records stretching back to the 16th or 17th centuries, that would be a true treasure.
Sergio Salés
Purificación
Sergio, may be I am wrong but, wouldn't those records be in the Autlán films? if it is anything like Cocula, they hold many records from the surrounding towns previous to the "autonomy" of the parishes. Just a thought.
As for this project, it looks a bit difficult, the criteria to find what is been left behind can't not be found by simply posting the available films/dates in FamilySearch. Another thing that comes to my mind is that they may have the ability to search for historical data in the Historic Archives of the different states. I know Guadalajara has a database for them online but the actual records are not. In either case would be interesting if this approach is doable.
RJ Quiralte
Preservation Concern
Hi RJ, et. al.:
Thanks for your thoughts. In some cases you correct that larger towns had jurisdictions extending over smaller towns that later got their own parish and records. An example I am familiar with is Tecolotlán, which initially had jurisdiction over Ejutla, which later became two separate parishes with separate records.
In the case of Autlán and Purificación, however, that is not the case, or at least not as late as the 1800s. I have looked through all of Autlán's baptism, marriage, and death documents from the mid 1600s to the early 1800s, and they do not include records from Purificación. There are obviously a few people here and there who were from Purificación, but not on the scale of the size of the town at that time.
Also, even if they had separated in the 1770s, Purificación should still have marriages starting in the 1770s as well as burial records, but that is sadly not the case.
My fear is that the remaining records of Purificación are lost. My hope is that either the priest did not send all the copies to Guadalajara and they are sitting in a well-kept dry room, or that the records available on Familysearch reflect the contents of the records in Purificación, and that the other copy exists in Guadalajara. As long as the documents were preserved and can be digitalized, I will be very happy.
The story Deedra and others tell is a typical one: historically priceless documents are not being adequately preserved. But those records sitting in celophane on the tops of shelves NEED to be preserved by trained archivists and then digitalized, so they don't turn to dust (like happened at el Grullo), and even if they do turn to dust after they have been digitalized, at least the information will not be lost forever.
My concern about the proposed project is whether it would damage records. If it is done in conjunction with archival preservation it would be the wonderful equivalent of what the Sociedad Mexicana de Genealogía y Heráldica did in the 1940s-1970s. They were the ones responsible for reaching the agreement between the dioceses and the Utah Family History Library to fotograph and microfilm the records of Mexican parishes.
Sergio Salés