Hello Nuestros Ranchos forum,
does anyone know something about don jose de Guzman y prado? hes called an
exposito in the house of pedro ruiz de Esparza, which i guess means hes an
hijo de padres no conocidos, but it seems strange since hes called Don jose
de guzman y prado, plus it also says on his defuncion that he dies poor
which also seems strange. does anyone know about him
Danny C. Alonso
Dying poor
Many people that were well off during their lifetime are recorded in their record of "defuncîon"as being poor. Life was tough and it was easy to go from doing alright to being poor, especially in old age. Many assets were often distributed before death occurred so then there is no need for a will and the "acta de defuncíon" will say "pobre".
Familia Guzmán y Prado
Hola Danny:
Como no se cuando nació José, hice una busqueda más amplia y me resultó un familia en de Aguascalientes en Familysearch:
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JHPR-8D9 : 14 July 2015), Luis De Mendosa and Felipa De Gusman Y Prado, 20 Feb 1702; citing El Sagrario,Aguascalientes,Aguascalientes,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 299,823.
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JHPR-DMP : 14 July 2015), Melchor De Richarte and Ana De Gusman Prado, 20 Jan 1726; citing El Sagrario,Aguascalientes,Aguascalientes,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 299,825.
Son siete registros pero no se si te sirvan.
Saludos
Marcelina
guzman yprado
Thank you Mr. Ricci and Marcelina. this is very helpful. but it still seems strange that someone name Don Jose de guzman y Prado was a exposito.
Danny C. Alonso
Exposito
Dear Danny,
I am in agreement with you that this isn't a typical "exposito" case as a double surname is given. They probably knew who his parents were. Actually in many cases they knew who the parents were but they were kept secret. A great uncle of mine adopted a child who was labeled "exposito" but this great uncle knew who the parents were. A not to distant relative had an affair and fathered the child. My great uncle adopted the child without ever divulging that there was also a blood relationship between Him and his adopted child. He preferred that the circumstances of the affair be kept secret. I was never able to find out the identity of my aunt's biological father, just that he shared the same surname as my great uncle.
Many times the "exposito" child was a blood relative to the family that was adopting him/her, just like my aunts case.
Rick A. Ricci
Jose de Guzman y prado
Hi Danny,
Don José de Guzmán y Prado is my 9th great grandfather, but, I'm not sure I completely understand your question, although, I think you're asking why is someone poor, who was abandoned as a child, being addressed with the honorific "don." Also, I know who you're referring to, but, for others, it's always helpful to give the spouse and the time frame.
A few things, first, I agree with Rick that life was tough during these times, many of these people were farmers, cattle ranchers, etc., so it wouldn't take much to lose your livelihood if your cattle or livestock became sick, or were attacked by other animals, or were stolen, or any number of other problems that come with raising livestock. Also, I agree that the compound surname is probably a clue to his parentage.
Second, not everyone addressed as don or doña had wealth or property, some were addressed as don or doña because of the positions they held in the community or because of who their ancestors were. Even today in Europe, many people from aristocratic families have little wealth or property, but, are still important members of society because of who their ancestors were.
Third, I'm not entirely sure of the origin of don José de Guzmán y Prado, but, I doubt he was really viewed as an abandoned child of unknown parents during his lifetime, in fact, I agree he probably knew exactly who his parents were. I think many of the people listed as hijos de padres no conocidos or expósitos probably did not know who their parents were, but, among those that were addressed as don or doña, or who used compound surnames of known prominent families, or who held high positions or ranks such as capitán like don José de Guzmán y Prado and his brother don Alonso de Guzmán y Prado, I think they probably were well aware of their actual origin, and, others probably were too. Among the more prominent families, the designation expósito and hijo de padres no conocidos seems to be used as a way to cover up some sort of scandal or illegitimacy. Although, I'm not sure that's what's going on here.
Daniel Mendez had a theory that don José de Guzmán y Prado and don Alonso de Guzmán y Prado were actually the children of don Francisco Pérez de Guzmán and doña Clara de Ayala, I don't remember all the reasons he gave, but, I do remember it made sense. I don't know what happened to my notes on this family, but, I do remember there is also some connection to Melchor de Guzmán who married Jacinta Gutiérrez de Valdivia, but, I don't remember what it is without my notes, although, I'm guessing Melchor and his wife probably appear in different records for the expósito Guzmán y Prado's as padrinos and such. It should be noted that Melchor de Guzmán's children and grandchildren also use the compuesto Guzmán y Prado, as well as, Ayala, so there probably is also a connection between Melchor de Guzman and don Francisco Pérez de Guzmán and doña Clara de Ayala.
Also, don Alonso de Guzmán y Prado had a daughter named doña Clara de Guzmán, who also went by doña Clara de Ayala, which definitely suggests a connection to don Francisco Pérez de Guzmán and doña Clara de Ayala. The only thing that doesn't make sense is, if don Francisco Pérez de Guzmán and doña Clara de Ayala are the parents of don Alonso and don José why aren't they acknowledged as such? Although, on the other hand, if they aren't related, why are the Guzmán y Prado children named after someone who they have no connection to? Also, since don José is left on the doorstep of Pedro Ruiz de Esparza, why didn't he assume the apellido of the family that raised him, Esparza? It's also not like the Guzmán y Prado brothers just assumed a random apellido, like de la Cruz, they assumed a compuesto used by other prominent citizens of Aguascalientes for a reason. So, are Francisco Pérez de Guzmán and Clara de Ayala the parents? Not sure, but, I would say they are probably related and may, in fact, be the ancestors of the Guzmán y Prado's. I think, but am not sure, that Francisco Pérez de Guzmán and Clara de Ayala began baptizing their children in the 1640s, and I would say the Guzmán y Prado's were born in the mid to late 1660s, probably towards the end of the childbearing years for Clara de Ayala, but, maybe, still possible. Also, Clara de Ayala died in June of 1669(no testo). She probably wasn't too old in 1669, so if she was the mother of the Guzmán y Prado's, maybe she was ill and that was the reason for giving up the children to be raised by Pedro Ruiz de Esparza. Another possibility is that Clara de Ayala is the grandmother of the Guzmán y Prado's, which would explain them naming children after her. The theory being that one of her children born in the 1640s became pregnant and, in order to prevent a scandal, was given up to be raised by someone else. Either way, if Francisco de Guzmán and Clara de Ayala are the parents or grandparents, something must've prevented them from raising the children themselves, since, they could've simply said the children were expósitos in the house of Francisco de Guzmán, so, perhaps they were ill, or didn't have the resources. Or, perhaps, there's no connection at all to the Guzmán y Prado's. But the fact that there's a Clara de Guzmán y Prado, aka, Clara de Ayala married to Baltasar de Aguilera, suggests otherwise.
Lastly, regarding the defunción of José de Guzmán y Prado, I'm not entirely sure he was poor. I've seen several instances where it says no testo for one spouse, and then, shortly after, when the other spouse dies, they will leave a very detailed testament. Plus, capitán José de Guzmán y Prado is listed as a merchant on several records, so, his livelihood didn't depend on crops or livestock. I've seen several documents on sigue.aguascalientes where he's buying and selling, mostly slaves, but, even that still shows he has some assets. Also, his wife doña Catalina de Mendoza, daughter of capitán Francisco de Mendoza and doña Magdalena de Villalobos brought a dowry to the marriage of 1000 pesos in property, clothes and one slave. And, when his father in law died he was named as Albaceas along with his brother in law, the priest, Joseph de Mendoza, so, he may have received something from the Will also.
The fact is, many of these ancestors clearly were trying to prevent certain information from coming to light. I'm not sure if they were trying to hide it from other family members, contemporaries, ecclesiastical authorities, or future generations. But, hopefully, once enough records are gathered a clearer picture will emerge of this family and we will be able to piece together their ancestry. I will try to find my notes, as well as, add additional children to Wikitree and maybe that will uncover additional findings.
Chris
jose de guzman y prado
Thank you Chris and Mr. Ricci. This is extremely helpful. i didnt know any of this information. a lot of this is very interesting. I'll need to go through this more than once.
Danny C. Alonso
Guzman y Prado
Guzman y Prado is not my line, but in my frustrating search for the root of the Ruelas/Sotomayor line I came across an entry a while back that may help you...or not.
In 1707 Francisco Lino de Guzman from Pinos desired to enter the priesthood. His parents were Capt. Alonso de Guzman de Prado and Polonia de Castaneda. Various witnesses stated that Alonso was the legitimate son of Capt. Francisco de Guzman y Prado and Clara de Ayala.
There are many relatives from religious orders mentioned, mainly on Polonia’s side. However, they did identify two cousins (primos hermanos) of Alonso:
Dr. D. Geronimo de Aguilar (deceased), Canonigo Magistral de la Cd de Guadalajara
Dr. D. Diego de Aguilar, Racionero de la Sta. Iglesia Catedral de Cd de Valladolid
You can see the full extraction in my Dropbox account. Click on MLM extractions (draft).doc. It is on page 120 of 139.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yop1j3tqornd0xh/AABnVNtOvuDJtcuW0Gk5vgBHa?or…
Below is a link to the original 19 Sep 1707 Aguascalientes entry in film 168697, Ordenes 1707-1736, Image 335 of 633. From the Ordenes films in the Guadalajara Diocese archives.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DV94-XS?i=334&wc=3JWG-W3F%…
Guzman y Prado is an interesting line. That exposito element is challenging. Good luck. Hope these links work..and help.
Regards to all,
Mary Lou Montagna
Guzman y Prado
Wow, Mary Lou this is amazing. This solves half of a huge mystery. I descend from both Alonso de Guzman y Prado and Joseph de Guzman y Prado, so this helps me out tremendously. Although, it also confuses me now even more. I've believed and have been told since I began researching three years ago that both were brothers. Even if there weren't other posts mentioning they were brothers, it still seemed obvious that they were, especially since they're the only two people that use the compuesto Guzman y Prado until their own children begin using it. Plus, they are relatively close in age. Joseph de Guzman y Prado even appears as the padrino to some of Alonso de Guzman y Prado's children. They even intermarried into the same families. So, now knowing that Alonso de Guzman y Prado is the son of Francisco de Guzman and Clara de Ayala, even though this does add more confusion, I think it definitely now suggests that Joseph de Guzman y Prado is a possible illegitimate child of one of the children of Francisco de Guzman and Clara de Ayala. Thanks so much Mary Lou for sharing this information. And, thanks for making the dropbox available to all of us.
Chris
Dropbox
Very glad to share. Realize now that what I post in Dropbox does not allow the reader to search and find specific words. That is disappointing because it limits research of larger files. If you'll send me your email I'll be happy to provide you with copies of my Word documents. Thanks.
Mary Lou