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Por AlmightyMexijew |

Hi, I'm researching the surnames Rivas, Valdez,Llanos, Salas, and Flores
from the Val Paraiso, Zacatecas area. I have been working on a family tree
and some research has led me to these names and a consistent occupation
here.

My GGGG Grand Mother on my Grandmother's father's side is the farthest I've
been able to trace. All the information I have is that the woman was of the
maiden name "Llanos". She and an unknown Valdez man had my GGG Grandfather
"MARGARITO LLANOS Y VALDEZ" in 1829. MARGARITO LLANOS Y VALDEZ married
MARIA ROSA RIVAS DE VALDEZ. For some reason, their child MARIA DEL REFUGIO
RIVAS has the maiden name Valdez.

It gets even weirder because my GG Grandfather, AURELIO RIVAS, was the first
cousin of MARIA ROSA RIVAS DE VALDEZ and they were married. AURELIO RIVAS
and MARIA DEL REFUGIO RIVAS(VALDEZ) had 6 children, of which my Great
Grandfather JESUS RIVAS was one.

I have a small history from this point, but, anything older than JESUS RIVAS
has yet to come up and be reliably concrete in relation. Does anyone
recognize these names?

Note: AURELIO RIVAS was an administrator for the Hacienda de San Jose about
10 miles from Val Paraiso, Zacatecas. Supposedly him and the family were
wealthy and owned part of Val Paraiso called "El Siglo", which had a post
office and stables and some shops and the like. I've had issues finding
this Hacienda though and suspect perhaps it may be San Jose de Llanetes or
San Jose de Llanos because of the name/areas of these seem related to the
Llanos ancestor.

Any help or details on this would be appreciated. I have a good amount of
dates, names, and some facts but did not feel it would be appropriate to
overwhelm readers with my first message. Thanks in advanced.

DOnt worry COle all of us in the group who are Spanish can relate to you, just look at our trees you find multiple people on their like 20
times. My parents are related, my grandparentes were related about 12 times, it was common who Spaniards to marry inside if a suitable spouse wasnt found. MOstly to perserve what we call "pure blood" which I think is kind of racist but I respect my ancestors decisions.
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Hello everyone,

Since joining the group about a month ago I have made a tremendous amount of
progress on both my Chavez and Padilla lines.
On my Chavez line I can now go back to the early 1700's with the children of
Domingo Chavez and Juana de Garza in Teocuitatlan de Corona, Atoyac,
Jalisco, Mexico. I have had even more luck with my Padilla line, obviously
it is a much better documented family. I can now trace it from Pablo
Padilla, the founder of San Julian, Jalisco to Pero Lopez de Padilla in
Spain during the mid 1200's.

I've updated my files
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/17062 to reflect all my progress

I was wondering if anyone could advise me as to where I could look for
additional information on the Padilla in Spain beyond the 1200's. My new
focus is now the families that married into my Chavez line - Rodriguez,
Urzua, Garcia, Soto, Sotomayor, Cuevas, Silva - from around Teocuitatlan de
Corona, Atoyac, Jalisco, Mexico. And the families that married into my
Padilla line - Moreno, Munoz, Marquez, Enriquez, Hurtado, Macias-Valadez,
Cortez-Benavides.

-Angelina-

WEll fo SPain it seems this is noble amily hence why it goes that far back. Have you conntect tothe SPanish Kings yet, you should have some kng by the 1300's? It is funny about 85% of all spaniards were nobles and the rest were "comons" only about 3% survived to have descendants of the commons today. I once read an article on Ancestry.com (Will try to post the article link) saying all Hispancis are the remnants and descendants of the SPanish Royal family in the Middle Ages. -Daniel
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?????

--- On Sat, 9/6/08, Daniel Mendez wrote:

From: Daniel Mendez
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Introduction
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 11:10 AM

WEll fo SPain it seems this is noble amily hence why it goes that far back.
Have you conntect tothe SPanish Kings yet, you should have some kng by the
1300's? It is funny about 85% of all spaniards were nobles and the rest were
"comons" only about 3% survived to have descendants of the commons
today. I once read an article on Ancestry.com (Will try to post the article
link) saying all Hispancis are the remnants and descendants of the SPanish Royal
family in the Middle Ages. -Daniel
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Hi Daniel,

yes and no. Spaniards in the Middle Ages are linked to the king as serfs to the king but I doubt in a bloodline. Royalties are the dynasties who reign a country. Nobilities were the administrators and the kinghts were the lower part of the nobility, they came from the ministeriales (serfs/employees to a king).
Perhaps an exemple for a better understanding: a royal lettercarrier is not a messenger of the king he is simply a lettercarrier of the royal postal service, an employee of the state in a monarchy.

As the knights became in the middle to the end of the middle ages slowly but surely unnecessary (see novel Don Quixote) due to the change from the "squatter"/tribal right (that what I occupy I own) to a documentary right (territorial sovereighnty with documentation) the kings together with the church had to look for a new duty for the knights, so they sent them to the crusades to secure the trade routes and for a promise of a fief of land. Good for Spain was the discovery of the Americas, so some knights, always with the church as spiritual advisers, made the colonisation for instance in Mexico.

History exist as a fact, only it needs a correct interpretation.
Very good lectures in history of the middle ages are in Wikipedia.

Regards,
Guenter Boehm (Husband of Bertha Boehm ,Member of N.R.)
En Busca de mis Antepasados
http://www.boehm-chronik.com/mexico/antepasados.htm

I too agree with you, about us mostly descending from the Nobility according to my Grandfather who comes from the Nobles in Santander, legend has it all Spaniards come from Alfonso I, Rey de las Asturias. In the 800's several families and remanants of the Visigoths I might say about 30 or so families according to the genealogy Ive seen, escaped to Asturias and elected Pelayo as 1st Chief almost like a King but not fully. It wasnt until Pelayo had his daughter married who was legitimate and she married Alfonso el Católico. He was named King of Asturias. I believe all Spaniards descend from him. I can connect to him many many times through other royal lines (as long as the royal genealogies are correct!):) My earliest King is Fernando II of Aragon (not Isabel) through one of his other wives. Im still researching a possible link to the Habsburgs through my Bourbón line, I have Jean de Bourbon in México in 1625 who's father was Alonso or Alexandro (seen both names used not sure why?) de Bourbón. I think this is the same Alexandre son of the King of France but not sure, further research is needed. Without proof genealogy is simply a myth! Anyway it is said all Europeans descend at least once from Charlamagne which is proven to be correct for some of us here on Ranchos. I think the royal genealogies are just fascinating! I was always told when I was about 5 or 6 that I came from proud and powerful españoles! I think that is why Im a good leader and love politics. Do you connect to royalty? I think your wife had told me once before but no names were mention? -Daniel Méndez del Camino
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Hi Daniel,

> Anyway it is said all Europeans descend at least once from Charlamagne <
Some even say from Adam and Eva. It is for some a nice belief, for me it is rubbish.
In the middle ages family names did almost not exist. A knight (13th century) which was a castellan (administrator of a royal castle) was named by his first name and the surname was the name of the castle. When this landless knight became a commission from the royal administration to admistrate a other castle the surname of the new castle was given to him. So one person could have several surnames in his lifetime. Surely not an easy task for an genealogist.

> I think that is why Im a good leader and love politics. <
Be careful, politicians with a sophisticated marketing team can sell any belief.

> Do you connect to royalty? I think your wife had told me once before but no names were mention? <
No, not to royalties. We don't dare assuming such a connection.
What we know about the 'NAVARROs de los Altos de Jalisco' is they came around 1550 from Spain (Fuente: Primeras Familias). Now we have to puzzle it together until the 19th century.

Best regards,
Guenter Boehm

En Busca de mis Antepasados
http://www.boehm-chronik.com/mexico/antepasados.htm

Guenter,

I agree with all you said, about not being able to trace our common ancestors back to royalty via surnames, for the reasons you specified, either in the New World or the Old. All we can hope is that the surnames will lead us to at least a location, if not to a specific person, royal or serf. I think when we throw DNA into the equation, it leads us even further afield.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Bertha Medina de Boehm
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:11 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royalty, Nobility

Hi Daniel,

> Anyway it is said all Europeans descend at least once from Charlamagne <
Some even say from Adam and Eva. It is for some a nice belief, for me it is rubbish.
In the middle ages family names did almost not exist. A knight (13th century) which was a castellan (administrator of a royal castle) was named by his first name and the surname was the name of the castle. When this landless knight became a commission from the royal administration to admistrate a other castle the surname of the new castle was given to him. So one person could have several surnames in his lifetime. Surely not an easy task for an genealogist.

> I think that is why Im a good leader and love politics. <
Be careful, politicians with a sophisticated marketing team can sell any belief.

> Do you connect to royalty? I think your wife had told me once before but no names were mention? <
No, not to royalties. We don't dare assuming such a connection.
What we know about the 'NAVARROs de los Altos de Jalisco' is they came around 1550 from Spain (Fuente: Primeras Familias). Now we have to puzzle it together until the 19th century.

Best regards,
Guenter Boehm

En Busca de mis Antepasados
http://www.boehm-chronik.com/mexico/antepasados.htm

Hello Bertha, Daniel, et al,

>> Anyway it is said all Europeans descend at least once from Charlamagne <
> Some even say from Adam and Eva. It is for some a nice belief, for me it is rubbish.

You're both right. For illustration, lets consider we colonize a new
world with 10 people - 5 boys and 5 girls - all unrelated. They pair
off and marry. Each couple has 4 children. The children then pair off,
picking their mates at random from the children of the other 4
couples. It doesn't take much consideration to realize that in only
two generations each new child will be descended from two of the
original couples, and if the random selection of mates continues, most
of the offpring will be descended from all 5 couples in a very few
generations.

Now suppose that one of these orignal couples was "royalty". It
follows that nearly all of the children several generations later will
be descended in some way from royalty. The only requirement is that
the descendants of royalty freely mix and mate with non-royalty -
which we can easily show happens in our society. Even if there is some
hesitation, royal blood will eventually be intermingled with most of
the population.

So it isn't really saying much to suggest that most of the population
has royal blood, or for that matter to be descended from ANY specific
individual. It's just mathematics. That's all it is.

The problem comes when we pay attention to the royal bloodline only,
ignoring our descent from poor and common people, who in most cases
were truely our most noble ancesters!

The advantage of royalty, of course, from a genealogical perspective,
is that they kept better records of their descendants, than did the
general population, who often married and were given in marriage and
bore children and died without any record made at all.

The upshot of it all is that we're probably all descended from
royalty, and from ordinary people, ... and yes, from horse thieves.
But as I said before, the lesser known may truely be our noblest
ancesters. Our task as genealogists, is to seek out the lesser known
and honour them by recording their names and, where possible, their
deeds and their history.

And even if their deeds were infamous, were we to know all their
circumstances, we might be inclined to forgive them. So none should be
excluded from our search.

-- Best regards, Stuart
mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com

Cole:

Welcome to the group!

First of all, you should know that "Llanos y Valdes" is not a combination of two surnames as you seem to imply in your message, but rather a composed name, where the two names are always used together and transmitted from generation to generation together. I presume at some time the two names were combined, but then remained the combination until about the time of Mexican independence when such composed names became "out of fashion" since they were linked to Spanish families... I think nowadays most of the "Llanos y Valdes" use simply Valdes, although I have seen some Llanos around.

The first Llanos y Valdes in the Jerez region was Juan Jose Llanos y Valdes, who was a military officer and son of a Spanish immigrant who came to Michoacan in 1610:

http://www.ramosfamily.org/nextgen/getperson.php?personID=I1523

They were a very prominent family (and still are... they own half the land in Villa Guerrero, Jalico, where my father is from) and thus it is no surprise that the children would take the name from their mother. The naming customs in Iberia and Iberian America did not dictate until the 19th century that children take their father's (or even their mother's) surname. That is another complicated tangent.

The fact that you have relatives that are related to each other means that you may have stumbled upon a genealogical gold mine because they would have had to get a dispensation from the bishop and as part of the petition they would have exposed their relationship and thus the names of their ancestors for a number of generations.

The only drawback is that the marriage appears to be too late to be included in Luz Montejano's brilliant work on the Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara so it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack going through the dispensation films.

Thank you Arturo! I wasn't sure how the system works as Iberian naming
customs are pretty screwy(I've seen matronyms,patronyms,both, etc.). Its
ironic that his father comes from Asturias, which seems to keep popping up
in various places I've researched. All the listed names seem like they're
originating from there, though the link is hard to prove. If this Juan Jose
Llanos y Valdes is a relative, he'd be the first link to Europe that is
definitive beyond oral history of coming from Spain and France.

How many other such families of prominence exist under this name? What are
their roots? Unfortunately I've hit a wall beyond the name of Hacienda de
San Jose and its' being 10 miles outside Val Paraiso, Zacatecas. I have no
idea whether some branch of my family owns the land still or whether they
were hacked down by revolutionaries or the like.

I suspect a Sephardic ancestry at some point because Flores, Rivas, Salas,
and Valdez are all registered at Sephardim.com as names of Sephardic Jews
and Conversos/Marranos. Cousin marriage buttresses this theory, as these
people would have done so to maintain "purity". The problem is...I don't
know enough and theres the fact that some people in the family might not
have cared, marrying out into general Spanish and Mexican gentry. My Great
Grandfather on my father's side would be an example of this; he was the son
of a very religious Ashkenazi(Russian/Eastern Euro) Jew and he couldn't
stand it, leading to my grandfather and my father being raised
non-religious. That is how my father had the lack of social pressures for
marrying my mother(whom is the Mexican).

Which hacieda did your family own, we owned La Labor, La Luz, El Salitre, Noria de los Angeles and El Carreton. All in Aguas and Zac. This ranged from ca. 1770-1918. It was said we left to Spain during the Independence and returned ca. 1827 where my 3ggf was born in Santander, in his marriage . "Eugenio del Camino, natural de Santander y vecino de la parroquia de los Angeles. We lost about 90% of our wealth in the revolution. After the revolution of 1918 the Spaniards cease to exsist in Mexico, now they were known as Mejicanos. They arrived in MAy 1913 and had my family under house arrest like criminals for over a month, apparently starving them, raping, and mistreating and stole everything. That's why when I met someone from the "group of la Raza" who their idol is Zapata or Villa, I feel ashamed what they did to my family.
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