Denise Fastrup

Hi Alice

Unfortunately I dont know much about the history of Nuevo Leon, - though it is on my list of things to do. I have an ancestor (Raphael Romo) who moved from AGS to Nadadores in or before 1816 , and I would like to know why. Right now, with the book Soldiers, Indian, and Silver, I am in the mid to late 1500s. If I happen to come across anything relevant for Nuevo Leon, I will let you know.

THe author of "Soldiers..." describes how Spanish soldiers sent to pacify the Chichimeca tribes made things worse by going in and picking fights in order to be able to take the prisoners of war and then sell them as slaves. Otherwise it was not allowed to use indians as slaves. Some priests complained of the practice and rightly pointed out that the only way to stop it was to not allow Indians to be sold as slaves under any circumstances. However, it was difficult to end the practice because the wages for the soldiers were very low, making it difficult for them to even maintain the necessary arms for defence. But the consequence was that Indian groups who had been pacified changed heart and attacked the Spanish in retaliation. It(the violence) became a vicious cycle.

It is a very interesting book, especially in light of Mexico's more recent history, or at least the situation along the border to the US.

With regard to the use of Otomi, it would be interesting to note when the books began to be written in Spanish.

Regards
Denise

Thanks so much, Armando. 
I love a good challenge!  Which is probably why my first graduate work was in Maya Tepeu vases.  Since the mesoamerican indigenous languages usually didn't have a written form, did the priests or scribes write it out phonetically?  There appeared to be a definite syntax, which further indicates an accepted system among the Espanoles as to how to write it out phonetically.  I'm still a bit confused as to why would they use a written indigenous language to record entries in the Espanoles volume, especially when you consider the indigenous were not literate at the time.  Coming across these little  enigmas and trying to solve them make genealogy a worthy challenge and makes researching so interesting!             Thanks again,  Alice   

--- On Tue, 6/19/12, Armando wrote:

From: Armando
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Language
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 8:51 PM

Hello Alice,

All languages spoken in Spain, other than Euskara (the Basque language),
are Latin based such as Castellano, Catalá, and Gallego . The language in
the records you are inquiring about is not Euskara nor is it a Latin based
language. It is without a doubt an indigenous language.

Regards,
Armando

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 2:24 AM, Alice Blake wrote:

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>  Hi Laura,
> I'm not at all familiar with Otomi, but I also thought it might be an
> indigenous language. However, I then wondered why the baptismal entries
> labeled as the espanoles would be in any other language than
> Spanish.  There were several different priests that performed these
> baptisms and all the entries, in different handwriting, are in this
> language.  Was this an order of priests from the same region of Spain that
> spoke another language?  I'm intrigued and would love to know...What is
> this language?!
> Thanks again,  Alice
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> --- On Tue, 6/19/12, mayangrl@sonic.net wrote:
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> From: mayangrl@sonic.net
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Language
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 5:42 AM
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> I'm guessing Otomi.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomi_people
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> Laura Gonzalez

Hello Denise,
Interesting stuff for sure.  It would be intriguing to find out who, when, and how was the oral language translated into a uniform and accepted written version.   Thanks again.
Alice

--- On Sun, 6/24/12, hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com wrote:

From: hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] acquiring a new language
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, June 24, 2012, 6:57 PM

Hi Alice

Here is a quote from Powells "Soldiers, Indians and Silver" (1952:201)

"The Conde de Monterrey tried to speed up religious attention to the Chichimeca problem by proposing the use of several of the most important Chichimeca tongues as lingua francas, so that the friars would not have so much difficulty in communication with their proposed converts. Specifically, he recommended that the Pegua, Guachichil, and Pame tongues be used, for they were the most widely known. But he also insisted that the churchmen would have to exercise greater diligence than had been customary in learning the languages of the Chichimeca tribes...."

Elsewhere (p. 196), Powell describes the priveleges requested by the Tlaxcalans who were recruited to settle in Nueva Galicia. The following (among others) were granted:

"They are not to be compelled to settle with the Spaniards, but will be allowed to settle apart from them and have their own distinct districts (barrios). No Spaniard can take or buy any solar within the Tlaxcalan districts.
The Tlaxcalans are to be at all times settled apart from the Chichimecas, and this distinction is to apply to all of their lots, pastures, wooded lands, rivers, salt beds, mills and fishing rights."

I would think that maintaining an ethnically homogenous community would have promoted the continued use of their native language...

Good luck finding out the language of the church books you are digging into!

Regards,
Denise