Online Status

Por MADERA_32 |

Hi, I am a new member. I am research my family history. Madera. We are
from Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico. A lot of Madera's there. But
there are a number of ranchos surrounding the pueblo. Three Rancho
Maderas:

San Jose De Maderas
Bajio de Maderas
Rincon De Maderas

These ranchos are very old. As I scrolled through rolls of films found
out that my Madera family was originally at Rincon de Maderas (Rancho de
Maderas) in the 1700's. Then in 1798, found birth of my great great
grandfather at a nearby rancho called, rancho Ximulco. Seems that my
ancestors moved from Rancho Rincon de Madera to Rancho Ximulco. And we
have been at Rancho Jimulco ever since.

But I am trying to research what part of Europe we originally came from.
I know that our pueblo, Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico was founded on
March 23, 1573. The surrounding ranchos were in existence at the time.
And everyone was baptized at Parroquia de San Diego which is in the pueblo,
Huejuquilla El Alto.

My hunch is that we came from two places in Europe. Isla Madeira,
Portugal and Oviedo, Asturias, Espana.

Due to the discovery of silver in Zacatecas which is right there, since
our pueblo is on the border of northern Jalisco and Zacatecas........many
people from europe came to this area for the discovery of silver and to get
land grants (a rancho). Also note that there are a large number of indigenous Huichole that live in the area. So there was intermarrying with the Huicholes.

I found a map on the internet showing the routes that ships took from
Europe to Mexico. The spanish vessels embarked from Sevilla,
Spain.......traveled throught the islands of Portugal such as Azores,
Madeira and then through the Canary Islands.....before heading off to the
carribean islands such as Cuba and the Dominican Republic......then with
final destination to Veracruz, Mexico....

From there people traveled to Zacatecas and that is how we are in Huejuquilla El Alto there since the late 1500's.

The first Madera that was on the passenger list to the Indies (1500's) was Rodrigo
Madera (from Isla Madiera)...that landed in Dominican Republic. Don't
think I am descended from him since my family is in Mexico.

Also another clue is that our church, "Sanctuario Del Divino Preso" at
Huejuquilla El Alto, has a similar resemblance to the large church of San
Salvador in Oviedo, Asturias, Spain. I found out there are a lot of people
with last name Madera at Oviedo.

Note: When silver was discovered in Zacatecas. The silver went two
directions. Back to Spain with ships embarking from Veracruz, Mexico
and...........to China with ships embarking from Acalpulco on the Manila
Galleons that sailed through the phillipines and on to China in the trade
of mexican silver for chinese porcelain and spices.

But also with the discovery of silver in Zacatecas. There are a few
spices and herbs that grow naturally in our area of Huejuquilla El Alto,
Jalisco such as "Clavos" and other herbs that we still use in our
traditional foods. I am sure Spain collected those and used those to
trade with back in those days...

Another clue that I found is, "El Santo Nino De Atocha." By looking at the clothing you can get a clue as to what part of Europe we could have came from.

"El Santo Nino De Atocha" has Celtic Clothing, A Pilgrimage staff, water bottle and the Clam shell on the side of the chest. I investigated those items and found out that the Clam Shell is the "Saint James Clam Shell" of Santiago De Compostela, Galicia, Espana. If you look closely at this youtube video, you can see several of the items that is on "El Santo Nino De Atocha" of Fresnillo, Zacatecas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnqpoELmDbM&feature=related

Galicia, Spain has Celtic influence which could explain the european features such as people with green eyes and blonde hair that our in are area in Mexico. That is another clue as to where some of the people in our area came from way back during precolombian times.

Saint James was an apostle of Jesus that traveled to Spain. Saint James and the apostles were suppose to have been at Capernaum, Israel

Hi, I found out some more information.
My great grandmother's name is Antonia Carillo Madera and she was married to Jesus (Juan de Jesus) Sanchez Alvarez... or somethign like that.

They had several children.. Manuel, Rafael, Zeferina, Romana, Teresa (1936)...

Does any of this sound familiar or can you direct me to where I can search myself.

Thank you!
Tania Garcia

Hi,

I also have the surname Madera in my blood line and from this pueblo too.
Ancestory.com is down at the moment and I can't give you the exact names.

I do know that the Madera came from my grandmother's side and I want to say her mother's name was Antonia. I will come back and post more information as I get it.

Thank you!

Tania Garcia

Call me Tony

Here are some community websites of the pueblos of Jalisco:

http://clubhuejuquilla.ning.com/

That one is our pueblo Huejuquilla, Jalisco. But on the right side is a list of other pueblos that you can click on to check out.

Near Huejuquilla is Valparaiso, Zacatecas, Mexico:

http://portalvalparaiso.com/

Mesquitic, Jalisco, Mexico:

http://www.mezquitic.com/main.html
http://www.mimezquitic.com/

Villaguerrero:

http://www.villaguerrero.info/

Near Guadalajara is Teptatitlan:

http://www.tepaenlinea.net/portada.html

Dear Silvia Corona,

It could be that the Maderas that branched out came from the Rancho Maderas in the Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico area. My Madera ancestors were at Rancho De Los Maderas (Rincon De Los Maderas) just to the east of Huejuquilla. There are three Rancho Maderas, where two are on the map:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6807/ranchomaderajaliscomexi.jpg

San Jose De Los Madera
Bajio De Los Madera
Rancho De Los Madera (Rincon De Los Madera) - Not on map

When I browsed microfilm of bautismos records, I found my Madera family at Rancho De Los Madera (Rincon De Los Madera) during the 1700's. But my great great grandfather Patricio Madera, "Espanol" was born in Rancho Jimulco - a nearby ranch. Meaning that we moved from Rancho Madera to Rancho Jimulco

There are a lot of Maderas in those Ranchos.

Rancho Maderas are family ranches named after our surname. There are other family named ranchos like Estancias Escalantes, Hacienda De Los Landas.

Our pueblo is Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco Mexico. And everyone was baptized at the Parroquia de San Diego De Alcala of Huejuquilla. The original church of San Diego that goes back to 1600's still stands. But a newer larger church was built in a different location.

Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico was founded on March 23, 1573.

There are a number of pueblos, haciendas and ranchos in our area where we live.
Here is a nice website of our region of Jalisco/Zacatecas:

http://zonanortejalisco.com.mx/

There is another nice hacienda called, Hacienda San Mateo and it is located in Valparaiso, Zacatecas, Mexico. Which is 35 minutes to the east of our pueblo of Huejuquilla, Jalisco, Mexico.

It is very old and still exists. "El Conde" lived there and here is a picture of El Conde and his wife from the 1720 era. Fernando De La Campa Cos:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5633/condedesanmateovalparai.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7826/esposadeldondevalparais.jpg

I have been to the museum of Valparaiso, Zacatecas, Mexico and saw several paintings of El Conde, his wife and daughter there.

This link gives more details:

http://valparaisozac.webcindario.com/personajes_ilustres/conde_fernando…

It is near Huejuquilla, Jalisco, our pueblo, we all know each other there.

Do you have any history on how the Madera's appear in Autlan, Jalisco or in
this area?
The Madera's from Zacatecas or nothr of Jalisco how do they moved to other
areas?
Does any of you have more information on the Madera family after 1600's to
the 1800's?

I am interesting in connecting with the main trunk of Madera's

Thank you
Sylvia H Corona

Yes Edward, I am very familiar with San Antonio De Padua, Zacatecas, Mexico.

It is 5 - 10 minutes on the west side of our pueblo Huejuquilla. It is an ex-hacienda and the original building still exists with cone shaped structures where they stored grain. It is a community smaller than our pueblo of Huejuquilla, Jalisco. People in San Antonio are farmers living in stone houses.

Here is an album of fotos of San Antonio de Padua, Zacatecas, Mexico:

http://photos.huejuquilla.mobi/GalleryThumbnails.aspx?gallery=311752
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1903/sanantoniodepaduahuejuq.jpg
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/30932304

We all know each other. Did you know that practically all of our pueblos have community websites where we post pictures and chat in saludos section?

I emailed you in more detail.

Here is a good community website of the people of Villa Guerrero, Jalisco, Mexico which is another pueblo right next to Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico:

villaguerrero.info

Madera_32,

One last thing. Yesterday I was reviewing material again from Mezquitic and kept on running into Madera entries. The earliest Madera was Antonio Madera from 1685. They intermarried heavily with the Guzman, Banuelos and Robles families, amongst others. My Felgueres ancestors married into the same group. I must have run into a lot of Maderas since at one point in my research, I noted that the Madera family in the 1715-1720 time frame was from "Minillas." We have discussed Minillas before in this website. There were many Minillas in the past and now they reportedly don't exist because of their depleted minerals. At least, you might get a hint of what kind of business they were in.

I have one more comment about all these families which I will make later in another topic page.

Ed

Regarding

<>

Dear Mr. Madera,

Since you are from Huejuquilla El Alto, are you familiar with a ranch called Hacienda de San Antonio (de Padua)? I found it in the old records of either Huejuquilla or Mesquitic. The ranch was owned by Guillermo Duval del Valle (from Cadiz) and Gertrudis de los Santos Coy (from Saltillo originally) ~1760-1770 time frame. Is it still there? Is it in Huejuquilla or Valparaiso? Do you now any history of it.

Ed

I would have to say that the Madera's european origin is from Asturias, Spain. Since other people that have posted here that are also Madera has stated Asturias.

But I would say two places. Madeira Island of Portugal and Asturias, Spain.

So that should give other people from the Madera family and idea where to look.

Notice that what attracted europeans to the Northern Jalisco and Zacatecas area was the discovery of silver. Zacatecas is known for the silver that was discovered there. Also the establishment of the Ranchos.

Northern Jalisco is right on the border with Zacatecas.

This style of hat is worn by the old people in the ranchos of our pueblo Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7320/33349932.jpg

I am curious to it's origin. It is also worn by some of the Huichole Indigenous people, but they put feathers on it.

So is it european or indigenous in origin?

I have a cousin that is researching our indigenous peoples that live in our area the Huicholes. And I am researching our european origin. So there is two of us doing research on our histories.

Summary of my ancestors:

My grandfather is Antonio Madera, born July 1893 in Rancho Jimulco of Huejuqulla El Alto, Jalisco Mexico.

Calixto (Calisto) Madera, born in 1856, Rancho De Jimulco
Maria Clemencia Madera de Rancho De Los Maderas (Rincon De Los Maderas) of Huejuquilla, Jalisco, Mexico (Parents of Antonio Madera)

Patricio Madera, "Espanol" ( born 1792 or 1798?) in Rancho Ximulco (Jimulco) of Huejuquilla, Jalisco
Maria Dimas De La Paz (Parents of Calixto Madera)

Juan Venancio Madera, "Espanol" born 1762 Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas, Huejuquilla, Jalisco (Father of Patricio Madera)

Francisco Madera, "Espanol" Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas, Huejuquilla, Jalisco
Maria De Huizar (Parents of Juan Venancio Madera)

Side Note:

Maria Clemencia Madera de Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas, Huejuquilla, Jalisco is the daughter of:

Benito Madera who was born in 1836, Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas, Huejuquilla Jalisco and
Maria Estanislaus Munoz

Marcelo Madera, born in 1780, Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas
Juana Ramirez (Parents of Benito Madera)

Lasaro Madera, Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas
Micaela Perales (Parents of Marcelo Madera)
(Lasaro Madera/Micaela Perales are also the Padrinos of Juan Venancio Madera)

Map of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6807/ranchomaderajaliscomexi.jpg

Rancho (Rincon) De Los Maderas is not shown on the map but it is there.

Another thing is one time I was in Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco and I met someone who is also a direct descendent of our great grandfather Calixto Madera. Her grandmother is a daughter of Calixto Madera. We discussed about our ancestry. She told me that Patrico Madera, our great great grandfather was suppose to have worn one of those colonial hats.

Another time I met an old person who is old enough to know and met my great grandfather Calixto Madera. He gave me a physical description about what he looked like. He told me that Calixto Madera had blue eyes and a strong european look. At the cemetary at Huejuquilla El Alto he is buried next to his brother Julian Madera.

I connect with the MADERA family, but this is as back as I have been able to
go:
*

Descendants of Juan MADERA
*

1 Juan MADERA

.. +Ana MARTINEZ

2 Ignacio MADERA Martinez Born: in descendiente de Espanol

.... +Rita LIZAOLA Navarro Born: in descendienete de franceses

... 3 Paulino MADERA Lisaola 1854 - 1925 Born: 22 Jun 1854 in Ahuacapán,
Jalisco, México

....... +María FLORES Lisaola 1866 - 1927 Born: 18 Apr 1866 in Autlán de la
Grana, Jalisco, México

... 3 Magdalena MADERA Lisaola

....... +Tomás CABEZUD Santana 1874 - 1915 Born: Abt. 1874 in Jalisco

... 3 Cleofas MADERA Lisaola 1856 - Born: 26 Sep 1856 in Cavrito Autlán de
la Grana, Jalisco, México

... 3 Francisco MADERA Lisaola 1860 - Born: 05 Sep 1860 in El Sagrario,
Autlán de la Grana, Jalisco, México
I hope that I can make more connections with some of you.
Sylvia H Corona Cortes

Thank you all for responding Longsjourney, Edward Serros, Mendezdelcamino, and Armando

Now Ed, I am very familiar with Mezquitic, Jalisco. We have been there several times as it is south of Huejuquilla. Because when we had to travel from Guadalajara to Huejuquilla or Huejuquilla to Guadalajara using the highway in the rugged mountains, we have to pass through Mezquitic. My Madera family is like this. My grandfather is name Antonio Madera born in July 1893 in Rancho Jimulco next to Huejuquilla, My great grandfather Calixto (Calisto) Madera was born in 1856 in Rancho Jimulco). I have been to their grave sites. Calixto Madera is buried next to his brother Julian Madera. Calixto died around 1923 and Julian died two years later. Calixto Madera had children with Maria Clemencia Madera. Maria Clemencia Madera is from Rancho De Los Maderas (Rincon De Los Maderas). She is the daughter of Benito Madera (Rincon De Los Maderas) and grand daughter of Marcelo Madera (Rincon de Maderas). I have found microfilms dating the year 1807 where census were done on Huejuquilla, and all the ranchos in the area. I saw that Marcelo Madera was the very first person listed on the list of the people living in Rancho De Los Maderas. There was a number of people listed on that census for that ranch. It was interesting to see the names of everyone living on each ranch and Huejuquilla

My great great grandfather was name Patrico Madera, "Espanol" born in Rancho Ximulco (Jimulco) in 1798, baptized in Church of San Diego of Huejuquilla El Alto. Everyone is baptized at Church San Diego. My great great grandfather is name Juan Venancio Madera, "Espanol" born in Rancho De Los Maderas (Rincon De Los Maderas) in the year 1764. He is the son of Francisco Madera.

I have included a map of the area. It includes two Rancho Maderas: San Jose De Los Maderas and Bajio De Los Maderas. But Rincon De Los Maderas is not on that map, but it there. As there are a number of other ranchos located there:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6807/ranchomaderajaliscomexi.jpg

Now for Mendezdelcamino? I love the Flamenco (Spanish Tango) It is in my blood. Like this video of Alizee:

http://alizeeamerica.com/play/?v=9

In Zacatecas City, there is a bully ring. And sometimes the female models where those type of hats like in the above video of Alizee singing "La Isla Bonita"

Now for Armando, there are a lot of blue eye people in my dad's family MADERA.

I too have family from the areas you describe. For what it is worth, I have repeatedly found the Madera family not only in Huejuquilla el Alto but in the nearby town of Mezquitic, Jalisco. The marriages and baptisms of the Maderas in Mezquitic date back to at least 1686 (Mormon film numbers 1164940 and 1164952). I suspect this is the same family since these towns were all frontier land back then. The elite (well-to-do mestizos, criollos, and the rare peninsular) all intermarried; distance was not a major issue but "class" was. It was preferable to marry a non-NAI. The ultimate prize for a criollo family was to marry a peninsular but it was OK to marry another criollo or well-to-do mestizo (re-labeled "espanol"), near as I can figure from my review of centuries of records in the local area and books that I have read. Bottom line: I think we are talking about the same Madera family, with branches thereof. Also by 1686, at least one of the Madera family members, Blas Madera, son of Joseph Madera and Josepha Basquez, was labeled as mestizo. He married into the espanol Avila family: wife Maria Theresa Avila, daughter of Miguel de Avila and Gertrudis de Robles, both "espanoles." The Robles and Madera family continued to intermarry for at least a century or two.

My Felgueres ancestors connected with Huejuquilla el Alto through a series of marriages in the mid-1750's. (I am from an illegitimate line that dates back to 1890). Bottom line here is that the first Felgueres in that area was Domingo Antonio Felgueres, who married Juana Bautista Martinez in 1794. Domingo was lieutenant governor of Mesqutic and came from Villaviciosa, Asturias, not far from the Oviedo, Asturias. I have visited Villaviciosa and took a day trip to Oviedo, the major city in the area and the city that you discuss. Furthermore, Oviedo has a history of mining. I am not sure about the Oviedo connection with the Villaciosa-based Felgueres, but the Felgueroso families and Felguera families are wealthy miners in the Oviedo area. The Dura Felguera company was started by a male Dura, who was an "indiano." An "indiano" is a person who went to the Americas, made a fortune, and came back to Asturias to live or better yet set up business that further prospered in Asturias. The Felgueres (later changed Felguerez) owned the haciendas in Valparaiso: del Valle, San Agustin del Vergel, Pena Blanca, El Tejujan, maybe others, in the late 1800's. The Felguerez family lost it all of course with the Mexican Revolution and the Cristeros wars.

With respect to your last comment about the Celtic culture, I need to tell you about a very nice lunch I had in Villaviciosa, Asturias a few years ago. The restaurant was referred to us by the locals, and that particular day we were one of the few costumers. Enjoying the afternoon and food, we ordered a nice wine and listened to the music. I could not believe my ears. I heard Celtic (Irish) music. I called over the waitress, who was also the owner of the establishment given the scarcity of customers, and asked her what kind of music was that!! She simply sighed and said, "It is our music. It is the music of old days, which the newer generations do not understand." The restaurant was situated in an apple orchard; the food, the wine, and the music are engraved in my memory. Yes, the area has strong Celtic roots, as does much of Northern Spain, where many of our ancestors came from. (The Basques and the Germans, as I have mentioned before in other comments, were brought to Mexico by the Spanish for their mining expertise).

Ed

Hi Ed! The culture of Spain has always fascinated me! The typical stereotype is bullfghting, wine, flamencoand fancy clothes. That is usually south of Madrid (though bullfighting is also popular in the north. My Spanish roots primarily are from Castilla, Asturias, Cantabria and Galicia. North of Madrid you;ll finda TOTAL dfferent culture! These are areas are like you said Celtico. The Irish are said to have come fromNorthern Spain along time ago. The English also have roots in Iberia and Germany. Sometimes peopleforget that the Spaniards from the north are usually (Gothic and Suevic blood from Germany). The history in general is fascnating. It is nice to know someone who also has Asturianu roots ours are from Cangas de Onis.
Regards,Daniel Mendez
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

Daniel,

With respect to your comment that the Irish came from Northern Spain, I am not sure that I agree. The Celts settled both Northern Spain and the British Isles, but I am not sure there is good data that the sequence was Northern Spain then Ireland. For example, the myth that the Black Irish are Spaniards that were shipwreck victims from the defeated Spanish Armada is complete fantasy, given my historical sources.

Furthermore, the Felgueres/Villegas family in Huejuquilla el Alto also derive from the de los Santos Coy family via Saltillo. The latter Santos Coy family, along with the de la Garza Falcon family and others, were from Lepe, Huelva, Spain. Arguably, these families were conversos (ex-Jews). See the book "Conquistadores and Crypto-Jews of Monterrey" by David T. Raphael. I admit that Raphael lacks solid data.

In my historical and DNA reviews, there is nothing "pure" in any family of Mexico, especially our area of investigation. In my mind, Spain itself was the largest admixture of genes in Europe from 1000 BCE to 1492 ACE: Celt-Iberians, Phoenicians, Romans, Jews, Visigoths (Germans), Berbers, Arabs, and others.

Shuffle the deck = Spaniard.

Shuffle the deck once more (plus NAI) = Mejicanos.

Ed

According to Brian Sykes the British Isles were populated by Iberians 6,000 years ago. I am going to assume he worked with anthropoligists for his following statement "Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number." Both of these statements can be read at http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/celts-descended-from-….
Also the Irish are more closely related to the Basques as far as Y-DNA is concerned.
"In Western Europe, R1b is present in Irish 90-98%,[44] Basques: 90-95%,[45] Bretons: 80-89%,[46] Scottish: 77%, Catalans: 75%,[45] English: 75%, Belgians: 70%,[31] Portuguese: 70%,[35] France (Strasbourg): 67.6%, France (Lyon), 66.7%,[47], Spanish (as a whole): 65%,[48] Italians (continental Italy): 40%,[49] Germans: 39%,[50] Norwegians: 25.9%,[51] Sicilians: 24.5%,[52] Maltese: 21.9%,[53] Swedes: 20%,[51] Sardinians: 19%.[54]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1b#Eurasia
Physical traits are yet another story. Hair color, skin color, and eye color were more dependant on climate. That is why the further north people lived the lighter they were. Therefore, all of northern Spain should have been lighter percentagewise, and they are. Maybe Galicians are even lighter as a percentage, than other northern spaniards, but there are light people all over Spain, especially northern Spain (Castilla y Leon, Asturias, Cantabria, País Vasco, and Cataluña.) Meaning the lighter people of our area could be from anywhere in Spain. As Daniel noted his ancestry is from all over northern Spain. Also notice that Irish are lighter than northern Spaniards as a percentage for the same reasons as previously noted. Therefore, the physical traits of Galicians, and other northern Spaniards, are somewhat independant of the physical traits of the Irish, even though most are of the R1b haplogroup.
Culture is also independant. Take for example that the main source of Castellano is Latin but the main source of Spanish DNA is not a Latin source. This also happened with groups we call Celtic. They aren't all related by DNA.
As far as the Y-DNA of Spain there is a new site that has the percentages of haplogroups in each area of Spain. http://www.iberianroots.com/Statistics/spain.html
The generalized Y-DNA of Mexico by percentages can be seen at http://www.ybase.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1339&PN=3 It shows 13.27% Native American Indian but otherwise very similar to the haplogroups of Iberia, a majority being European. A majority of mt-dna for Mexico is Native American Indian. So Mexicans are generally half Spanish and half Indian.
I would be interested in seeing something similar to the Iberian Roots site for Mexico with the states and communities listed with their Y-DNA and also mt-DNA.

Armando

I don't think all Mexicans "have" the same genetic ancestry, if you go to Mexicothey have a spectrum of colors from the darkest to the lightest. From personallyexperience and travel I notice the majority of the lightest Mexicans are in the north,west and Mexico, though they can be virtually anywhere in Mexico. I guess the concentration is because of the climate. A state like Jalisco is a very fair climate similar to that of Europe, hence I think this is why the Spanish had a desire to conquer that territory and settle. I think the mestizosare half Spanish and half native american. I have an interesting history, I have one black ancestor and 2 indio ancestors, 1 jewish ancestor and the rest are European, it shows Mexico to be a pluricultural country! It gets confusing once "se limpian" as it was known in colonial times like if mestizo married a white to make castizo and the castizo married another white then they become "full" espanol again.
Regards,DanielTo learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/

Hello Daniel, I agree not all Mexicans have the same genetic ancestry, but generally it is the same. Gary Felix and Robert Tarín met equilibrium with their DNA databases. Meaning that after a certain point there is hardly any change in the percentages with additional samples. Therefore most Mexicans are mestizos, or half Spanish and half Indian. Spanish being the same mix as found in Spain (European, Middle Eastern, North African, etc)
I also agree with you that there will be differences between communities or groups in Mexico and there definitely were areas where more Spanish, or other ethnic groups, settled and other areas where they didn't. This is why I would like to see a website for Mexico just like the Iberian roots site, especially for Los Altos. Also a differentiation of Spanish origin could be generalized. As far as climate is concerned, it would only be part of the equation for the reason where the Spanish settled, since they also settled in areas that didn't have such a nice climate.
As far as the limpieza de sangre, you can't always erase mt-dna with it if you marry a castizo with a castizo because if the mother has the mt-dna of an Indian, which was the case a majority of the time, she passes this down to her children, as well as other genes of her indigenous ancestor. So even with limpieza de sangre it doesn't change a large database like that of Robert Tarín, nor does it rid of recessive genes. Again, we would see the differences between communities.
I do remember reading previous posts of yours that you have a majority of Spanish ancestry. I suspect this is true of my grandfather and his siblings, but I have yet to complete the ancestry for his mother's side of the family. This is why I am looking forward to familysearch completing the Jalisco records. I have no doubt I have Indian blood from my father's mother, so I am accepting of that as well as my proven Spanish and Basque ancestry.

Armando

Yss, Los Altos would be a great project! Most of the records I have seen Spanish tend to marrySpanish. There are obviously mestizos as well. I wonder what if the some maternal altenoDNA is european that would be really interesting. As you stated in most parts of Mexicothe women tended to carry the ameridinian gene. Even today in Mexico we see all types ofEuropeans (english, italian, portuguese, polish etc) and many dfferent type of Asian peoplesas well as many Africans that since the independence have immigrated to Mexico. My questionis if in general most people are half and half then how does the varied color spectrum of Mexicoexist, something I have always wondered. I have many friends in Mexico who are from the darkestto the lightest that can be found! This is what has gotten me nterested in DNA and such.
Regarding to my ancestry I have 2 indio ancestry (Moctezuma, as long as the Ruiz de Esparza genealogy is correct?)and another on my father's side which ironically is also Moctezuma. The other one is on my mother's side.I have one black ancestor who was an esclavo on my father's side (more correctly he was a mulatto). And 1 conversojewish lineage. Most of the indio and black lines sadly run dry in the 1600s. I have found indio linesare usually hard to track down for varios reasons. I have found the Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian lineseasier to trace possibly because they didnt move as much. My genealogy in Mexico is mostly from Los Altos, Jalisco,Aguascalientes, Zacatecas, Chihuahua, Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, Michoacan and DF.
I have found people stating they never found evidence for "frances" coming to Mexico prior to the ndependence.This is false, what I have come to conclude, the term espanol not only meant Spaniard but it meant basicallywhite. So if a frenchman came to Mexico he would CASTILINIZED and become part of the culture. I liketo compare it to that of when whites of Latin America and Europe come to the US and are labeled "white" or added to theculture. Same thing in Colonial Mexico. My french lineage is Bourbon but have had difficulty tracing it. It runs coldin the mid 1600s.
Regards,Daniel

Regards,Daniel

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

> As far as the limpieza de sangre, you can't always erase mt-dna with it if you marry a castizo with a castizo because if the mother has the mt-dna of an Indian, which was the case a majority of the time, she passes this down to her children, as well as other genes of her indigenous ancestor. So even with limpieza de sangre it doesn't change a large database like that of Robert Tarín, nor does it rid of recessive genes. Again, we would see the differences between communities.
> I do remember reading previous posts of yours that you have a majority of Spanish ancestry. I suspect this is true of my grandfather and his siblings, but I have yet to complete the ancestry for his mother's side of the family. This is why I am looking forward to familysearch completing the Jalisco records. I have no doubt I have Indian blood from my father's mother, so I am accepting of that as well as my proven Spanish and Basque ancestry.
>
> Armando

Hello Daniel,

I think we should all coax Gary Felix, Robert Tarín, and Mariano Leal into
creating that database and urging people in Los Altos to participate. I
don't believe in the myth of the French, a late tio primo told me it was a
myth decades before I read Mariano Leal's take on it. He was also a güero
that could have been confused with having French ancestry. I have a first
cousin, from a different tio, that is also a güero that looks like he could
have French ancestry, and he does as well as Italian, and he also shares my
Spanish Basque ancestry. However both his surnames reflect the Spanish
Basque and his French ancestry. His French ancestry is not from Jalisco
though, and not from a lost batallion either.
Now as far as the skin color variation it is due to a lot of things. First
of all genes can be recessive. Two brown haired people can have a blond
child. Also, the skin color of the children won't necessarily be the same.
Some of my uncles were güeros some were morenos, from the same parents. A
cousin of mine has three children. Each was successively lighter, even
though they had the same parents. The amount of time they spend in the sun
also affects their skin color. I had friends, two sisters, one was morena
and one was güera, the father was güero and the mother morena. Their
features were identical though. Even in Spain the color spectrum exists,
which carried over to Mexico.

Saludos,
Armando

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, Los Altos would be a great project! Most of the records I have seen
> Spanish tend to marry Spanish. There are obviously mestizos as well. I
> wonder what if the some maternal alteno DNA is european that would be really
> interesting. As you stated in most parts of Mexico the women tended to carry
> the ameridinian gene. Even today in Mexico we see all types of Europeans
> (english, italian, portuguese, polish etc) and many dfferent type of Asian
> peoples as well as many Africans that since the independence have immigrated
> to Mexico. My question is if in general most people are half and half then
> how does the varied color spectrum of Mexico exist, something I have always
> wondered. I have many friends in Mexico who are from the darkest to the
> lightest that can be found! This is what has gotten me nterested in DNA and
> such.
> Regarding to my ancestry I have 2 indio ancestry (Moctezuma, as long as the
> Ruiz de Esparza genealogy is correct?)and another on my father's side which
> ironically is also Moctezuma. The other one is on my mother's side.I have
> one black ancestor who was an esclavo on my father's side (more correctly he
> was a mulatto). And 1 converso jewish lineage. Most of the indio and black
> lines sadly run dry in the 1600s. I have found indio lines are usually hard
> to track down for varios reasons. I have found the Spanish, French,
> Portuguese and Italian lines easier to trace possibly because they didnt
> move as much. My genealogy in Mexico is mostly from Los Altos,
> Jalisco,Aguascalientes, Zacatecas, Chihuahua, Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi,
> Michoacan and DF.
> I have found people stating they never found evidence for "frances" coming
> to Mexico prior to the Independence.This is false, what I have come to
> conclude, the term espanol not only meant Spaniard but it meant basically
> white. So if a frenchman came to Mexico he would CASTILINIZED and become
> part of the culture. I like to compare it to that of when whites of Latin
> America and Europe come to the US and are labeled "white" or added to the
> culture. Same thing in Colonial Mexico. My french lineage is Bourbon but
> have had difficulty tracing it. It runs cold in the mid 1600s.
>
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease
> visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>
>
> > As far as the limpieza de sangre, you can't always erase mt-dna with it
> if you marry a castizo with a castizo because if the mother has the mt-dna
> of an Indian, which was the case a majority of the time, she passes this
> down to her children, as well as other genes of her indigenous ancestor. So
> even with limpieza de sangre it doesn't change a large database like that of
> Robert Tarín, nor does it rid of recessive genes. Again, we would see the
> differences between communities.
> > I do remember reading previous posts of yours that you have a majority of
> Spanish ancestry. I suspect this is true of my grandfather and his siblings,
> but I have yet to complete the ancestry for his mother's side of the family.
> This is why I am looking forward to familysearch completing the Jalisco
> records. I have no doubt I have Indian blood from my father's mother, so I
> am accepting of that as well as my proven Spanish and Basque ancestry.
> >
> > Armando
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

As Mariano states, I fnd it absurd some pepole think white skin must be french, but likeMariano says "eran blancos porque eran espanoles" Yes, this is true because my father isbrown haired and my mother is blonde, I have brown hair. While my sister is blonde. My fatheris blue eyed and my mother is green eyed, one of my sisters and I have brown eyes whilethe rest of my siblngs have green or blue. I guess in our family brown is recessive. Not surewhere we get brown eyes. All up to my great grandparents had "colored" eyes so I guess brown eyes came from one of my great great grandparents of whom we do not have knowledge ofeye color. It must be on my father's side. Going back to the Celts which is nterestng, I guess we have "a strong" celtic lineage since I have been told blonde=celtic, almost all my mother's familyis blonde. Easily pass as a typical northern european. Then again not all northern europeansare blonde or super lght complected. I have a friend who is a Dane and is
brown eyed and black haired.I always joke with him, "I thought all Danes are blonde!" He replies "I know!"
When I was referring to "color" spectrum, I guess I meant races from "black" mexicans to white mexicans, yetwe "have" identitcal genetic ancestry. Yes, the sun has alot to do it with, I dislike the sun in my opinionand like cooler temperture, partially my skin tends to turn rosy. I once read a report on "hispanic families"stating that color always varies in each family, I don't think it's necessarily true. If four grandparents have lightcomplexion then the grandkid will also be if the parents are also.
Yes, the color spectrum does exist also in Spain. The northern typically is lighter because its more snow and rainless sun. While the south is more sun and usually creates a tan. But n general it is also not necessarily true. Ifsomeone dislikes the sun then they'll avoid hence why light complected Spaniards can be virtually all over the peninsula.Plus lke you stated Northern Spaniards populated the south once it was conquered by los reyes Catolicos.
This is growing to be an interestng discussion, Ill have to look into DNA a bit more now!Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

"My questionis if in general most people are half and half then how does the varied color spectrum of Mexicoexist, something I have always wondered" ---

Daniel, I thought you had moved on from there, but all I can tell you is that a child with both parents with dark hair and brown eyes can be born with light hair and blue eyes-color of skin alone does not tell you what is in your DNA-you will have to study that science of genetics, statistics and probabilities. Your Indian ancestors could be Tlaxcalan, Zacateco, Chichimeca, etc. Too bad DNA cannot narrow our ancestry down to one group. Nobody can prove descendancy from any one tribe without a clear genetic trail.

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> From: mendezdelcamino@live.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:48:49 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Irish, Spanish, and Mexican DNA
>
>
> Yss, Los Altos would be a great project! Most of the records I have seen Spanish tend to marrySpanish. There are obviously mestizos as well. I wonder what if the some maternal altenoDNA is european that would be really interesting. As you stated in most parts of Mexicothe women tended to carry the ameridinian gene. Even today in Mexico we see all types ofEuropeans (english, italian, portuguese, polish etc) and many dfferent type of Asian peoplesas well as many Africans that since the independence have immigrated to Mexico. My questionis if in general most people are half and half then how does the varied color spectrum of Mexicoexist, something I have always wondered. I have many friends in Mexico who are from the darkestto the lightest that can be found! This is what has gotten me nterested in DNA and such.
> Regarding to my ancestry I have 2 indio ancestry (Moctezuma, as long as the Ruiz de Esparza genealogy is correct?)and another on my father's side which ironically is also Moctezuma. The other one is on my mother's side.I have one black ancestor who was an esclavo on my father's side (more correctly he was a mulatto). And 1 conversojewish lineage. Most of the indio and black lines sadly run dry in the 1600s. I have found indio linesare usually hard to track down for varios reasons. I have found the Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian lineseasier to trace possibly because they didnt move as much. My genealogy in Mexico is mostly from Los Altos, Jalisco,Aguascalientes, Zacatecas, Chihuahua, Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, Michoacan and DF.
> I have found people stating they never found evidence for "frances" coming to Mexico prior to the ndependence.This is false, what I have come to conclude, the term espanol not only meant Spaniard but it meant basicallywhite. So if a frenchman came to Mexico he would CASTILINIZED and become part of the culture. I liketo compare it to that of when whites of Latin America and Europe come to the US and are labeled "white" or added to theculture. Same thing in Colonial Mexico. My french lineage is Bourbon but have had difficulty tracing it. It runs coldin the mid 1600s.
> Regards,Daniel
>
>
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>
>
> > As far as the limpieza de sangre, you can't always erase mt-dna with it if you marry a castizo with a castizo because if the mother has the mt-dna of an Indian, which was the case a majority of the time, she passes this down to her children, as well as other genes of her indigenous ancestor. So even with limpieza de sangre it doesn't change a large database like that of Robert Tarín, nor does it rid of recessive genes. Again, we would see the differences between communities.
> > I do remember reading previous posts of yours that you have a majority of Spanish ancestry. I suspect this is true of my grandfather and his siblings, but I have yet to complete the ancestry for his mother's side of the family. This is why I am looking forward to familysearch completing the Jalisco records. I have no doubt I have Indian blood from my father's mother, so I am accepting of that as well as my proven Spanish and Basque ancestry.
> >
> > Armando
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

This is meant to be humorous....as I was holding my newborn 2nd child, a
very, very fair child, I asked my friend, "Isn't it weird how he was born so
fair?" She responded: "yes, those Espanoles se metieron con todos, y
tienen que salir evidencia de vez en cuando." How right she was!

I know you are researching Madera but what's your name?

I really enjoyed what you shared and look forward to seeing more from you, thank you so much for sharing what you've learned.  It reminded me we research more than surnames, we are reclaiming a history of our peoples in Mexico..

thank you again.. whoever you are!
Linda in Marietta

________________________________
From: "zacatecano020@hotmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:21:51 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] MADERA Family history of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico

Hi, I am a new member.  I am research my family history.  Madera.  We are
from Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico.  A lot of Madera's there. But
there are a number of ranchos surrounding the pueblo.  Three Rancho
Maderas: 
San Jose De Maderas
Bajio de Maderas
Rincon De Maderas

These ranchos are very old.  As I scrolled through rolls of films found
out that my Madera family was originally at Rincon de Maderas (Rancho de
Maderas) in the 1700's.  Then in 1798, found birth of my great great
grandfather at a nearby rancho called, rancho Ximulco.  Seems that my
ancestors moved from Rancho Rincon de Madera to Rancho Ximulco.  And we
have been at Rancho Jimulco ever since.

But I am trying to research what part of Europe we originally came from.  I know that our pueblo, Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico was founded on
March 23, 1573.  The surrounding ranchos were in existence at the time. And everyone was baptized at Parroquia de San Diego which is in the pueblo,
Huejuquilla El Alto.

My hunch is that we came from two places in Europe.  Isla Madeira,
Portugal and Oviedo, Asturias, Espana.

Due to the discovery of silver in Zacatecas which is right there, since
our pueblo is on the border of northern Jalisco and Zacatecas........many
people from europe came to this area for the discovery of silver and to get
land grants (a rancho).  Also note that there are a large number of indigenous Huichole that live in the area.  So there was intermarrying with the Huicholes.

I found a map on the internet showing the routes that ships took from
Europe to Mexico.  The spanish vessels embarked from Sevilla,
Spain.......traveled throught the islands of Portugal such as Azores,
Madeira and then through the Canary Islands.....before heading off to the
carribean islands such as Cuba and the Dominican Republic......then with
final destination to Veracruz, Mexico....

> From there people traveled to Zacatecas and that is how we are in Huejuquilla El Alto there since the late 1500's.

The first Madera that was on the passenger list to the Indies (1500's) was Rodrigo
Madera (from Isla Madiera)...that landed in Dominican Republic.  Don't
think I am descended from him since my family is in Mexico.

Also another clue is that our church, "Sanctuario Del Divino Preso" at
Huejuquilla El Alto, has a similar resemblance to the large church of San
Salvador in Oviedo, Asturias, Spain.  I found out there are a lot of people
with last name Madera at Oviedo.

Note:  When silver was discovered in Zacatecas.  The silver went two
directions.  Back to Spain with ships embarking from Veracruz, Mexico and...........to China with ships embarking from Acalpulco on the Manila
Galleons that sailed through the phillipines and on to China in the trade
of mexican silver for chinese porcelain and spices.

But also with the discovery of silver in Zacatecas.  There are a few
spices and herbs that grow naturally in our area of Huejuquilla El Alto,
Jalisco such as "Clavos"  and other herbs that we still use in our
traditional foods.  I am sure Spain collected those and used those to
trade with back in those days...

Another clue that I found is, "El Santo Nino De Atocha."  By looking at the clothing you can get a clue as to what part of Europe we could have came from.

"El Santo Nino De Atocha"  has Celtic Clothing, A Pilgrimage staff, water bottle and the Clam shell on the side of the chest.  I investigated those items and found out that the Clam Shell is the "Saint James Clam Shell" of Santiago De Compostela, Galicia, Espana.  If you look closely at this youtube video, you can see several of the items that is on "El Santo Nino De Atocha" of Fresnillo, Zacatecas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnqpoELmDbM&feature=related

Galicia, Spain has Celtic influence which could explain the european features such as people with green eyes and blonde hair that our in are area in Mexico.  That is another clue as to where some of the people in our area came from way back during precolombian times.

Saint James was an apostle of Jesus that traveled to Spain.  Saint James and the apostles were suppose to have been at Capernaum, Israel

I sent you an email to give you my name.

Like to mention that Fresnillo, Zacatecas is located about two hours east of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco (where we are from).

One roll of film that I was scrolling through was "La Cofradia" year 1608! of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico.

Presently in Huejuquilla El Alto, there is a rancho called, "La Cofradia." But when I browsed through microfilms of Huejuquilla El Alto, I found one called, "La Cofradia" of the year 1608. But at that time it was called, "La Cofradia De La Hermanidad." It was like a daily log......very interesting as to what was going on back then. Saw an inventory list of that time period. The person who was keeping a log at that time period was a Mayordormo by the name of Lazaro Medina.

In that inventory list it included items like "velas de baro, vino, corona de plata, pollos para los enfermos, costo para Semana Santa." That was an indication they celebrated Semana Santa back then.

But also there were logged visits of the Duenos de Las Minas De Fresnillo.

Also there was mentioning of Capitanes (Capitan Mayor y Capitan Menor), Capitanas (women captains?) I kind of had a hard time deciphering the writing.

But also in that inventory list it had the costs of each item. The monetary items they used were such as "PESETAS" and "TOMINES" What is a Tomine?

Anyway, I don't know what the function of a Cofradia was back then. But the Cofradia of today at Huejuquilla El Alto is just a ranch. My relatives are not from that Rancho.

Mines are from Rancho Jimulco, Bajio De Maderas, Rincon de Maderas which is also at Huejuquilla El Alto.

Genealogy Research