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Hello,
I have a question about the protocol/customs of the marriage process of Mexico historically.
I have found more that one record for the same marriage in some cases so my first question is did each individual have to register/license in their respective parish and civilly or am I misunderstanding?
Also is the "informacion matrimonial" part of the licensing process? dispensa? I have this record from the "informacion matrimonial" and although I cannot translate the entire document yet before I spend hour on deciphering its content I thought to ask is it worth the trouble? will this document contain any family information other than parents names?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18572-589-41?cc=1874591&wc=1…
Thanks, as always, for your help in advance.
Best regards,
Monica Ochoa
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Marriage customs
Hi,
Regarding your question of whether people would have to register for marriage in their parish and civilly, the Catholic Church used to be on charge of performing marriages and baptisms, so they would record all the births, marriages and deaths. Then in the 1850's there was the Reform War, after which, Church and State got separated and in the 1860's the State took over performing marriages and recording births and deaths.
As of today, if you marry in the Church, the Mexican State does not recognize your marriage and vice versa (although nowadays in order to get a Church Marriage you must get the Civil marriage as well). People usually get both if they can, even in the same day, or they may do the Civil marriage a few weeks earlier if they need to apply to some paperwork as a couple, like buying a house.
In the Civil Marriage books you may find up to 3 different records regarding a marriage: when the groom goes to request the marriage, when bride and groom bring up witnesses that state they may get married, and the marriage itself. This formula was pretty much taken from the Church.
The great thing of having so many records for the same event is that many times you can find in one of them important information missing from the others. Totally worth the trouble.
Victoriano Navarro
thanks
Victoriano,
Thank you for the information and advise. I thought it might be best to look for each precisely for that chance at one piece of missing information, I suppose I was just looking for a shortcut. This research requires time and dedication and is quickly becoming more obsession than hobby :)
Best regards,
Monica Ochoa
thanks
Monica,
You said it correctly, it goes from being a hobby to an obsession. I believe that my ancestors reach out to me so I can find them, they are in my thoughts and in my dreams.
Happy hunting!
Alicia
________________________________
From: "ochoafam4@rocketmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] thanks
Victoriano,
Thank you for the information and advise. I thought it might be best to look for each precisely for that chance at one piece of missing information, I suppose I was just looking for a shortcut. This research requires time and dedication and is quickly becoming more obsession than hobby :)
Best regards,
Monica Ochoa
Marriage process
Monica
Typically the language in the marriage ceremony includes the term "case y vele" which means that everything from the matrimonial investigation was in order, and everything required by the Council of Trent for a canonical marriage has been done. Sometimes you will see "case y no vele." I believe this means that there was some "issue," but not sufficient to prevent the marriage. Often, in these cases there will be a "vele" done a few days or weeks later, sometimes longer, after the "issue" has been settled.
I use the earlier date in my records, but also note the second date.
I have never gotten a good sense of what "vele" means. I think the literal translation is "veiled"; perhaps it means having the marriage blessed by the Church. Can anyone provide a better explanation?
The essential purpose of the matrimonial investigation is to ensure that the couple is free to marry (or if young, have their parent's permission), not presently married, there are no impediments such as being too closely related either by blood (consanguinity) or marriage (affinity), they are of both Catholic, if either was married before, if the prior spouse is truly deceased. Witnesses were required for both partners. Initially, this was all written out by hand, in later periods, there was a form that was filled out and sworn to by all concerned.
Notice of the marriage was announced from the pulpit on three successive Sundays (this is the Banns); these dates are often in the marriage record. This is to allow anyone in the parish to come forth and raise issues why the couple should not get married.
The matrimonial investigation will sometimes give data not available in the marriage record: ages, place of birth and residence, parents names, prior spouse (sometimes with death date and burial place, or simply how long ago the spouse died). Sometimes (in later periods), there will be a reference to the baptismal records (parish, book number and page). Some of the witnesses may be relatives, with relationship given.
Ocassionally the names in the matrimonial investigation will differ from the marriage record. The names in the marriage record may get shortened.
In general, this is still done today; although publishing the banns is much less common. Couples still go through the investigation process, may still have to apply for and be granted dispensations in some cases; if not granted they cannot be married in the Church, and must be married civilly.
In the period before about 1750, the matrimonial investigations are very useful records to have. They become less useful, but then in the later 1800s and into the 1900s are quite useful.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Thank you!
George,
Thank you once again for sharing your experience and knowledge. You are far more versed and informed in this research than I an I am learning so much from you and so many of the others in this group. Much appreciated!
All the best,
Monica Ochoa
Marriage process
Hi George,
There is a node where they discuss the veiling, I think it is not done when it is the second marriage for the bride:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/16074#comment-11922
As of the banns, I have never heard them announced from the pulpit here in Mexico, however I've have seen in the boards of several parishes information regarding the grooms and brides-to-be including their names and photos, so that anybody can learn they are pretending to get married soon and "speak or forever hold their peace".
Best regards,
Victoriano Navarro
Case y vele
Victoriano
Thank you very much for this reference, this actually explains quite a lot.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Marriage customs
Dear Monica,
Regarding your first question. Yes, if the groom and bride came from different towns, announcements of the intention of marriage, and corresponding documentation was recorded in their respective parish. Regarding the 'informacion matrimonial' it would be the first step to establish whether there were any impediments because of consanguinity or other non filial relationships. If any was to be found, then the bishop would have to provide the 'dispensa'. Finally, the informacion matrimonial may contain valuable informacion other than the parents names. Also, the names of the parents often appear with variations that gives you clues about ancestral relationships. Finally, if a dispensa was required, then you can then search the Mitra for the specific information that generally contains a detailed description of how the couple was related.
Sincerely
Jaime Alvarado
Thanks
Jaime,
Thank you for the information.
Monica Ochoa