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Denise Fastrup

Hello

(I originally posted the message below as a reply in my Romo forum topic, but it didn't show up in a google search, so I am resending it here as a separate topic to hopefully make the information easier for someone else to find - who knows, someone may look for Rapahel Silvestre at some point in the future...)

I am still searching for the marriage record for Don Joseph Raphael Romo and Maria Rafaela Aguilar. I have earlier posted some Romo names I have come across. Below is one more Romo which I found in the indexed FamilySearch source. The names of the parents are the same as for Joseph Raphael Prudencio Romo Alba b. 1765. So in other words there were two Raphael Romos born in the same decade, same place, same parents, and the question is which one married Maria Rafaela...then next question is if the Maria Rafaela mother of Manuel Romo who later moved San Buenaventura, is indeed the Maria Casilda Rafaela Aguilar Chaves who was born in Aguascalientes in 1763.

So if anyone out there has the record of birth/christening for Manuel Romo, from Aguascalientes, married to Maria Ygnacia Rodriguez in San Buenaventura, or the marriage record for Rapahel Romo and Maria Raphaela Aguilar of Aguascalientes, please post.

I have been through the Ag. Ag. Sagr. records for 1782 - 1787, and 1787 - 91, minus the ones that didnt show properly (which I am now rechecking) and have had no luck.

I have not been able to explore the church records for the image of Silvestres record of birth, due to technical issues with downloading the images, otherwise I'd of course make it available. But here is the basic info for anyone researching the Romos...

Name:

Jph. Raphael Silvestre Romo Alva

Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 20 Dec 1767
Baptism/Christening Place: EL SAGRARIO,AGUASCALIENTES,AGUASCALIENTES,MEXICO
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Antonio Romo
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Maria Ana De Alva
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Paternal Grandfather's Name:
Paternal Grandmother's Name:
Maternal Grandfather's Name:
Maternal Grandmother's name:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number:

C60484-4
System Origin:

Mexico-ODM
Source Film Number:

299533

Source Citation

"Mexico, Baptisms, 1560-1950," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NTMP-BZK : accessed 26 May 2012), Jph. Raphael Silvestre Romo Alva, 1767.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NTMP-BZK

Regards,
Denise Fastrup

Hello Denise,

I can't help you with what you are asking about. Here is what I can give
you:

The marriage of the parents of Joseph Raphael Prudencio Romo de Vivar and
Joseph Raphael Silvestre Romo de Vivar (Antonio Romo and Maria Ana de Alva)
can be found at the following:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13033-121643-47?cc=1410092…

The parents of Antonio Romo were my ancestors Miguel Romo de Vivar (hijo
natural de José Romo de Vivar y Ruiz de Esparza) and Josefa Ana Macías
Valadez y Gómez de Espejo.

As far as finding out which Rafael married Rafaela you need to find both of
the baptisms and see if either of them died at birth. If not then look
through all of the volumes of Información Matrimonial for the whole state
of Aguascalientes which would be a daunting task. What you could get from
the Información Matrimonial is the reported age of the groom but it isn't
always accurate, however if you can find one for both Joseph Raphael
Prudencio Romo de Vivar and Joseph Raphael Silvestre Romo de Vivar and they
both reported their age and one showed older than the other then you would
know which one is which.

Saludos
Armando

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 2:33 PM, wrote:

> Denise Fastrup
>
> Hello
>
> (I originally posted the message below as a reply in my Romo forum topic,
> but it didn't show up in a google search, so I am resending it here as a
> separate topic to hopefully make the information easier for someone else to
> find - who knows, someone may look for Rapahel Silvestre at some point in
> the future...)
>
> I am still searching for the marriage record for Don Joseph Raphael Romo
> and Maria Rafaela Aguilar. I have earlier posted some Romo names I have
> come across. Below is one more Romo which I found in the indexed
> FamilySearch source. The names of the parents are the same as for Joseph
> Raphael Prudencio Romo Alba b. 1765. So in other words there were two
> Raphael Romos born in the same decade, same place, same parents, and the
> question is which one married Maria Rafaela...then next question is if the
> Maria Rafaela mother of Manuel Romo who later moved San Buenaventura, is
> indeed the Maria Casilda Rafaela Aguilar Chaves who was born in
> Aguascalientes in 1763.
> So if anyone out there has the record of birth/christening for Manuel
> Romo, from Aguascalientes, married to Maria Ygnacia Rodriguez in San
> Buenaventura, or the marriage record for Rapahel Romo and Maria Raphaela
> Aguilar of Aguascalientes, please post.
>
> I have been through the Ag. Ag. Sagr. records for 1782 - 1787, and 1787 -
> 91, minus the ones that didnt show properly (which I am now rechecking) and
> have had no luck.
>
> I have not been able to explore the church records for the image of
> Silvestres record of birth, due to technical issues with downloading the
> images, otherwise I'd of course make it available. But here is the basic
> info for anyone researching the Romos...
>
> Name:
>
> Jph. Raphael Silvestre Romo Alva
> Gender: Male
> Baptism/Christening Date: 20 Dec 1767
> Baptism/Christening Place: EL SAGRARIO,AGUASCALIENTES,**
> AGUASCALIENTES,MEXICO
> Birth Date:
> Birthplace:
> Death Date:
> Name Note:
> Race:
> Father's Name: Antonio Romo
> Father's Birthplace:
> Father's Age:
> Mother's Name: Maria Ana De Alva
> Mother's Birthplace:
> Mother's Age:
> Paternal Grandfather's Name:
> Paternal Grandmother's Name:
> Maternal Grandfather's Name:
> Maternal Grandmother's name:
>
> Indexing Project (Batch) Number:
>
> C60484-4
> System Origin:
>
> Mexico-ODM
> Source Film Number:
>
> 299533
> Source Citation
>
> "Mexico, Baptisms, 1560-1950," index, FamilySearch (
> https://familysearch.org/pal:**/MM9.1.1/NTMP-BZK: accessed 26 May 2012), Jph. Raphael Silvestre Romo Alva, 1767.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.1.1/NTMP-BZK
> Regards,
> Denise Fastrup
>

Denise Fastrup

Many Thanks Armando! I have now seen the image and saved it to my computer. Time will tell if I am actually descended from them...As you noted in your message, I have to go through a lot of records! But thats genealogy in a nutshell.

Isn't it unusual for an hijo natural to have the father listed? its the first time I've seen that.

Regards,
Denise

Denise,

It is unusual to have the father listed in the baptism of an hijo natural,
although I have seen that happen before. However, that is not what happened
here. There are two different dispensas that mention Miguel Romo as the
hijo natural of José Romo. The first has the following info:

"*que José Romo fue casado con Mathiana de Lomelín y
hubieron en su matrimonio por h.l. a Ysidro Romo y el mismo José
Romo según voz común de .... por hijo natl y havido en
otra muger extramatrimanium a Migl Romo por lo que
Ysidro y Migl son hermanos que es primero grado 1o grado
que Ysidro Romo fue casado con Gertrudis Morán quienes tu
bieron for hijo a Ysidro Romo – y Migl Romo fue casado con
Anna Masias quienes huvieron por hijo a Thomas Romo por lo que
Ysidro y Thomas son primos hermanos que es segundo grado 2o grado
que Ysidro Romo fue casado con Gabriela Villalobos quienes hubieron
Por hijo a el prethendiente José Francisco Romo – y Thomas Romo fue
casado con Xabiera Aranda que hubieron por hijo a Manl
Romo padre de la prethenza por lo que José Francisco y Manl
son primos segundos que es tercero grado----3o grado.
que Manl Romo padre de la prethenza es casado con Antonia de Cue-
llar que tienen por hija a María de los Dolores Romo por lo que
el prethendiente José Francisco es tío en tersero con quarto grado de
Consanguinidad de la prethenza María de los Dolores 3o con 4o.*."

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18418-22791-34?cc=1874591&wc…

The second dispensa de afinidad says the following:

*Tronco=
Dn Josef Romo de Vivar casado que fue con Da Matii
ana de Lomelin tubieron por hijo Lexitimo a Dn Matias
Romo.= Y rreconocio por hijo Natural Dn Jose Romo:de Vivar
a Dn. Miguel Romo cassado que fué con Da. Anna Macías tu
bieron por hija a Da. Michaela Romo:---------
y Dn Mathias Romo Casado que fue con Da. Maria de Sn.
Juan Moran tubieron por hija a Da. Guadalupe Romo:
pretenza= que son primas hermanas que es segundo grado
Da. Michaela Romo cassada que fue con Dn. Luciano
Lozano tubieron por hija a Da Trenidad Lozano--
muger que fue del pretendiente parese es tersero:
con segundo grado de afinidad.--------------*

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18415-40548-2?cc=1874591&wc=…
Don Luciano Lozano and Doña Michaela Romo are my ancestors.

There is another dispensa that mentions the parents and grandparents of
Anna Macías Valadez the wife of Miguel Romo de Vivar.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18411-18388-7?cc=1874591&wc=…

Información matrimonial de Aguascalientes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12875-63800-48?cc=1410092&…

Información matrimonial de Lagos de Moreno
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18560-47685-32?cc=1874591&wc…
*casamiento:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11756-161663-73?cc=1410092…
*

Saludos
Armando

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 1:22 AM, wrote:

> Denise Fastrup
> Many Thanks Armando! I have now seen the image and saved it to my
> computer. Time will tell if I am actually descended from them...As you
> noted in your message, I have to go through a lot of records! But thats
> genealogy in a nutshell.
>
> Isn't it unusual for an hijo natural to have the father listed? its the
> first time I've seen that.
>
> Regards,
> Denise
>
>
>
>

Denise Fastrup

Hello Armando

Thanks for the source citations! Just what I needed. I can see I need to re-do my tree (or at least, the tree that may be there if I ever make the solid connection to Aguascalientes!) There are also surely others in the forum who can use this info as well. I did learn yesterday that Raphael was a common name in Encarnacion in the late 1700's, in contrast to Aguas, Aguas. Sagrario., so I feel one step closer.

Regards,
Denise
ps thanks for the advice about the website on Rio Sauces I mentioned in a previous message. Again it just shows thats it important to compare sources of information.

The frequency a first name appears in searches has absolutely nothing to do
with where you are likely to find their marriages and baptisms. The only
lead you have tells you Rafael Romo was from Aguascalientes. I would search
there and not Jalisco.

Good luck
Armando

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:30 AM, wrote:

> Denise Fastrup
> Hello Armando
>
> Thanks for the source citations! Just what I needed. I can see I need to
> re-do my tree (or at least, the tree that may be there if I ever make the
> solid connection to Aguascalientes!) There are also surely others in the
> forum who can use this info as well. I did learn yesterday that Raphael was
> a common name in Encarnacion in the late 1700's, in contrast to Aguas,
> Aguas. Sagrario., so I feel one step closer.
>
> Regards,
> Denise
> ps thanks for the advice about the website on Rio Sauces I mentioned in a
> previous message. Again it just shows thats it important to compare sources
> of information.

Denise,

I have seen the father's listed on many birth records for hijos naturales. I guess it would depend on whether the father claimed them as his children. My GG Grandfather Prudencio Olmos claimed all 7 of his children from his mistress in the birth records of the church.

Alicia,

San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] raphael silvestre romo

Denise Fastrup
Many Thanks Armando! I have now seen the image and saved it to my computer. Time will tell if I am actually descended from them...As you noted in your message, I have to go through a lot of records! But thats genealogy in a nutshell.

Isn't it unusual for an hijo natural to have the father listed? its the first time I've seen that.

Regards,
Denise

Denise Fastrup
Hello again Armando

Here is a very interesting article about Rio de los Sauces, known today as Encarnacion de Diaz:
http://www.historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaciondediaz.com/macias.html

It is a little confusing, in that it is Juan Antono Romo de Vivar who is named as a native of Rio de los Sauces,but the Macias Valades family were the ones who owned property there. However, two Romos are mentioned in the article.

Below is a quote which shows where the name Rio de los Sauces came from.

Recordemos que la merced original del llamado Sauz de los Macías fue otorgada como un "Sitio de Venta en el Río de los Sauces", de aquí que años después se refieran a él como "El Río de los Sauces" ó también como "Río de los Cuellares". Sin duda que al Sitio del Sauz, cada familia se refería a él como de su propiedad, pero debieron acordar llamarlo finalmente con su nombre original "El Sauz de los Macias ", al que pertenecían todos como descendientes de Alonso Macias-Valadez. Es por eso, que a la Villa recién fundada, oficialmente se le conocía como: "Villa de Nuestra Señora de la Encarnación, Sauz de los Macias". En el Informe de Vista de Ojos, realizado el 6 de Febrero de 1760, firman como testigos Don Cristóbal de la Trinidad de Cuellar y González, su tío Don José de Cuellar y Pedro de Cuellar.

The article also mentions a lot of interesting information about the ethnic composition of the communities, and how some families who were mestizo came with time to be classified as spanish. And also marriage patterns (endogamy).
I know now also that I may have been looking in the wrong place for a marriage between Raphael Romo and Maria Rafaela Aguilar - it may be in Encarnacion de Diaz, not Aguas. Sagrario...

There are a lot of good sources cited in the article, which could help both of us with further research.

Regards
Denise

Denise,

I have read the articles of that website many times ever since Miguel
Beltrán made us aware of it here on NR. Be very careful with the
genealogies found on it because there are some errors, some include my
ancestors.

Something to keep in mind is that just because someone is a native of a
ranch doesn't mean they owned it. The Romo family extended itself all over
Los Altos and Aguascalientes and moved back and forth between the two
areas. Your ancestors may have stayed in the same place or they may have
moved around. There is no telling until you find more documents.

Endogamy is marriage within family. The dispensas were for asking for a
waiver or permission to marry 2nd and 3rd cousins.

Saludos
Armando

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 2:50 AM, wrote:

> Denise Fastrup
> Hello again Armando
>
> Here is a very interesting article about Rio de los Sauces, known today as
> Encarnacion de Diaz: http://www.**historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaci**
> ondediaz.com/macias.html
> It is a little confusing, in that it is Juan Antono Romo de Vivar who is
> named as a native of Rio de los Sauces,but the Macias Valades family were
> the ones who owned property there. However, two Romos are mentioned in the
> article.
>
> Below is a quote which shows where the name Rio de los Sauces came from.
> Recordemos que la merced original del llamado Sauz de los Macías fue
> otorgada como un "Sitio de Venta en el Río de los Sauces", de aquí que años
> después se refieran a él como "El Río de los Sauces" ó también como "Río de
> los Cuellares". Sin duda que al Sitio del Sauz, cada familia se refería a
> él como de su propiedad, pero debieron acordar llamarlo finalmente con su
> nombre original "El Sauz de los Macias ", al que pertenecían todos como
> descendientes de Alonso Macias-Valadez. Es por eso, que a la Villa recién
> fundada, oficialmente se le conocía como: "Villa de Nuestra Señora de la
> Encarnación, Sauz de los Macias". En el Informe de Vista de Ojos, realizado
> el 6 de Febrero de 1760, firman como testigos Don Cristóbal de la Trinidad
> de Cuellar y González, su tío Don José de Cuellar y Pedro de Cuellar.
>
> The article also mentions a lot of interesting information about the
> ethnic composition of the communities, and how some families who were
> mestizo came with time to be classified as spanish. And also marriage
> patterns (endogamy).
> I know now also that I may have been looking in the wrong place for a
> marriage between Raphael Romo and Maria Rafaela Aguilar - it may be in
> Encarnacion de Diaz, not Aguas. Sagrario...
>
> There are a lot of good sources cited in the article, which could help
> both of us with further research.
>
> Regards
> Denise

Denise Fastrup

Hi Armando

I was doing a little double checking, and I can see that you have the father of Miguel Romo to be Jose Romo de Vivar y Ruiz de Esparza:

"The parents of Antonio Romo were my ancestors Miguel Romo de Vivar (hijo
natural de José Romo de Vivar y Ruiz de Esparza) and Josefa Ana Macías
Valadez y Gómez de Espejo."

Ernie Alderete, in Gedcom here in NR, has the father of Miguel to be Andres Romo de Vivar and mother Maria Lopez de Elizalde.

So I was wondering if you have a link to the image of the christening or baptism of Miguel Romo, which mentions who his father is.

I still have not found the marriage of Raphael Romo and Rafaela Aguilar, though I have sifted through the marriages of Encarnacion de Diaz from 1782 to 1788. Both Raphael Romos were born in the mid 1780's so I did not think it was likely either would marry before 1782. My upper limit is 1798, as son Manuel Romo married in 1816.
Sooner or later, something will turn up!

Regards, Denise

Hi Denise,
My grandmothers family is from AGS and I had a hard time finding her baptismal records but after much persistence I found that she and two siblings were baptized in Bajio de San Jose, Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco which is nearby. You may want to try that area.
Sherri Mora

Denise Fastrup
Thanks! I am so glad you mentioned that. I am now looking in Encarnacion. There are a few routes to the information I need. The best info would be the marriage documention, but if I cant find that, then I'll try baptism (of son Manuel Romo) or Information Matrimonial. I am learning as go!
Regards,
Denise

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