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Por VictorRangel |

Hola a todos,
Tengo los siguientes datos de mi línea sucesoria sin embargo no logro hilar correctamente los datos con mis ancestros "JUAN RANGEL DE BIEZMA Y PEGUERO y MARIA ROSALES" los cuales provienen del siglo XVI Y XVII y los datos que tengo se quedan hasta aproximadamente 1760, espero me pudieran ayudar a encontrar la línea sucesoria de mi apellido;

1. Jose Timoteo Rangel (1770 aprox)
+ Married w/ Ma. Dolores Esparza
2 Gil Rangel Esparza (Owner of several haciendas in Aguascalientes and Zacatecas)
+ Married w/Maria Ciriaca Garcia Villalpando 24 de junio 1818
3 Merced Rangel Garcia
+ Married w/ Brigida Guinchard
4. Arnulfo Rangel Guinchard
+ Married w/ M. Higareda
5. Arnulfo Rangel Higareda
+ Married w/ Maria Luisa Moran Macías

I had not realized that I had mistakenly written “Teresa De Tovar” instead of “Tovar De Teresa” in my comments. I remember a few years ago someone else wrote “Teresa De Tovar” when he was still alive and he was very irritated by that mistake.

Rick A. Ricci

Víctor,

Me da gusto saber que somos parientes até talvez cercanos. Me madre nació en la ciudad de México mas se crió en la ciudad de Aguascalientes donde mi abuelo nació. Entre varios parientes eran los González de Hermosillo, Striker, García de Rojas, Fernández Villa, Gómez de Portugal y los Guinchard quien eran bancarios destacadas durante el siglo XIX, tengo varios documentos sobre ellos. Creo que seamos parientes por los Guinchard, Macías Valadés, García y los Villalpando. Te enviaré otro mensagen.

Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino

Victor,

Your Rangel's seem to have originated in Asientos, Aguas., These are my wife's Rangel's also. In Asientos there were at least three Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza's listed in the records there. the first one is Jose Timoteo Rangel & Dolores Esparza who were having kids in the early 1780's. The second Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza were married May 23, 1790. And the third Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza were married in 1818.
I have Jose Rangel #2 listed as Gil Rangel's father. My wife comes up thru Bartolo Rangel, Gil's brother, and son of Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza #2. I have six kids listed for Jose #2. This Jose Rangel is the son of Joseph Thadeo Rangel & Maria Casilda Gertrudis Nabarro married April 22, 1743 in Asientos. I can trace this line back three more generations past Joseph Thadeo Rangel.
I have ten kids listed for Gil Rangel & Ciriaca Garcia but I did not have your Merced Rangel in my list. A side note on Ciriaca Garcia's father Santiago Garcia, after his wife Matilde Villalpando died he married Antonia Rangel daughter of Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza.
It seems like this Rangel clan moved back and forth a lot having kids in different locations. Some of the locations I know about are Asientos Aguas./ Aguas., Aguas. / Cieneguilla, Aguas. / San Luis Potosi, SLP.
I don't really know much about Jose Timoteo Rangel, I could not place him in the family because no documents had the name "Timoteo" on them. Do you have anything that ties him in? Let me know what I can do to help You.

Best Regards,
Ron Robinson

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Dear Victor.

Research on the Romo de Vivar and Rangel families have been going on for centuries. Unfortunately, much of the past research has been taken for granted and it needs to be reevaluated. Before el señor Teresa de Tovar passed away, he stated that Diego Romo de Vivar was married to a different Rangel Peguero then the one we have all listed for decades. He did not give all the information or sources because he stated that we needed to wait until he finished the book.

If el señor Teresa de Tovar is correct, then the line still descends from judeoconversos. The two different spouses that are given for Diego Romo de Vivar both descend from the Ha Levi family. Contrary to what many genealogists state, the romo de vivat rangel family obviously has judeoconverso roots.

The question of the different spouses brings up the question "Are we dealing with two different Diego Romo de Vivar"s If they are different Diego Romo de Vivar then is it possible that we descend from a different diego romo de vivat then the one that everyone names as the progenitor of the romo de Vivar family in Agauascalientes. I have found a different Diego Romo de Vivar inGuadalajara that was identified as an inquisitor. This Diego Rome de Vivar is considered a cousin of the Diego Romo de Vivar that we have long considered the progenitor of the Romos in Aguascalientes. Señor Teresa de Tovar brings information to the table, that if true, disrupts what we know about the first Diego Romo de Vivar. Teresa de Tovar identifies Diego Romo de Vivar as primarily working in the mines with no evidence that he was an inquisitor. The other Diego Romo de Vivar is listed in documents as an inquisitor. Either our information that the progenitor from Aguascalientes was an inquisitor was incorrect or we could possibly descend from the second Diego Romo de Vivar that was an Inquistor, identified as a cousin to the first Diego

If genealogists insist that we descend from a Diego Romo de Vivar that was an inquisitor than we need to do more research into the life of the only Diego Romo de Vivar that I have found listed in the rolls of inquisitors in Nueva Galicia in the early 1600s. To help us in our research, we need to see what we can find from Teresa de Tovars records and rough draft of his book.

Or we could let sleeping dogs lie and continue to repeat the .same information without questioning it.

Mr. Ricci,

Is this the Diego Romo de Vivar that's with Maria Rangel or a different
one. Is he the inquisidor and what is an inquisidor? is that a job.

Danny C. Alonso

Dear Danny,

Yes, s the same Diego Romo de Vivar that we are talking about. The question becomes. Who are his parents and which wife Rangel Peguero are we talking about. Sr. Teresa's de Tovar lists a different wife for the Diego Romo de Vivar that we have considered our progenitor. And this Diego was busy working in the mines and is not found in the list of inquisitors in the early 1600's. The information that we have been passed down over many decades was that our Diego Romo de Vivar was a member of the inquisition. The other Diego is the only one listed as an official of the inquisition and he has different parents. We need to investigate Sr teresa de Tovars claims..

He was not always right even though he claimed to be a stickler for primary sources. Teresa de Tovar refused to acknowledge that I had discovered an error in a line that he published with Mariano Gonzalez Leal. I gave him court records on a property that showed that they had made a slight mistake where they had mixed up a nephew with his uncle. The court records clearly identified the correct lineage. He was also mistaken on another line that had to do with the Fernandez de Hijar. Teresa de Tovar did a lot of research that is truly impressive. He just wasn't very good at admitting when he was wrong, even when confronted with indisputable evidence. As scientists, and genealogists are scientists, we must have the results of our investigations guide us. When the data presents different information than our hypothesis, than we need to pay attention to our data have our conclusions reflect the added information. The new information cannot be ignored.

Teresa de Tovar had also done some research on some families that I had also investigated. A couple of the lines were Judeoconversos that were investigated by the inquisitors for not attending church and practicing Jewish traditions. Even though this information was not hard to find, he did not include this information in a book that he published

Teresa de tovar revealed his information after I had already found the information on the other Diego Romo de Vivar that is listed as an inquisitor. Once Teresa de Tovar insisted that his information is correct than you need to reevaluate which Diego Romo de Vivar is the one that is the progenitor of the Romo de Vivar's from Aguascalientes.

Most people are more comfortable leaving things as they are. Until we see Mr Teresa de Tovars evidence, it is hard to say what the truth is.

Dear Danny,

Here is what Mr. Teresa de Tovar wrote in another post here on the nuestroranchos website. When I asked him to elaborate, he stated that I would have to wait for the book to come out.:

"(Diego Romo era natural de Rielves, Toledo, que es Castilla y no de
Sevilla, que es Andaluca. Su partida de bautizo en Rielves, Toledo, est
fechada en 12 de marzo de 1589. Era hijo de Diego Romo de Vivar y de
Catalina Perez.
>
> Maria Rangel Ortz Peguero era de las familias que a mediiados del siglo
XVI se establecieron en las Villas de San Miguel y Guanajuato. Era hija de
Diego Rangel Peguero y Cuadrado y de Juana Ortiz)"

If Mr Teresa de Tovar is correct than the line given on that website that you are offering as evidence is incorrect.

We need to investigate the ancestry of Maria Rangel Peguero since there are two of them being given as the wife of this Diego Romo de Vivar. We also need to investigate the information that we is being given on Diego Romo De Vivar since there are also two of them and I am not talking about father and son. I am talking about the one that invested in the mines and the other one that was an inquisitor. The inquisitor was not the son of Diego Romo de Vivar and Catalina Perez. The record that shows him as an inquisitor shows a different set of parents.

Both Maria Rangel Pegueros descend from the Ha Levi family. It is not entirely accurate to list them as judeo sefardistas. The Ha Levi family intermarried repeatedly with a circle of Jewish families that are considered Ashkenazi Jews (from France and Germany's). These families had been in Spain or just on the other side of the border living in what is now France for about two hundred years before the expulsion from Spain but they had other traditions then what we call Sephardic Jews. Some had come from further north in France and Germany. This Ha Levi family has descendants that repeatedly intermarried with the nobility that we have studied as ancestors some of the founding members of los altos de Jalisco.

Mr. Ricci,

I've notices that Geni.com makes a lot of errors, so I dont know how
reliable their information is but they have Maria Rangel Ortiz Peguero
married to Diego Romo de Vivar. But it looks like they're just using the
same Diego Romo de Vivar married to a different Maria Rangel. These Rangels
dont look like they descend from the Ha levi family though, at least it's
not mentioned here.

http://www.geni.com/people/Diego-Romo-de-Vivar-y-P%C3%A9rez/60000000092…

Danny C. Alonso

Regarding geni.com, please use this (as well as other published trees) as more of a hint source for further research. My experience with geni.com was not good. I found my husband's family there and I started filling in the blanks. I found an error with dates and birthplace for his grandmother. I contacted geni.com and their procedure is for you to contact the person/manager who entered the original post. I thought it would be easy and exciting to possibly connect with a family member (as I have done on here as well as ancestry.com). I told the "manager" who I was and let them know the corrected information that I had. They were not interested. I had documents as well as my mother in law to corraborate the correct information. They still did not make the correction. I contacted the developer of the site and he was pretty non-commital, explaining that the policy is the person who adds someone to the tree becomes the manager. It is up to them to make any edits. To me, that leaves a HUGE room for error and accuracy is not a priority. I'm not saying it is a bad site, but I do caution that it has many errors.

Sheri,

I agree about the Geni.com, they're always filled with wrong information. I
think when someone mentions a theory on the Nuestros Ranchos Forum they
also just steal the idea and put it on there Geni site like it's already
proven. I don't use them at all. I only trust the information at the Austin
Perez Wikitree and the information on geneanet.org that's the only trees I
use to help me.

Danny C. Alonso

I am not new to Nuestros Ranchos but new to comment since I had not felt prepared enough to know what to state. I posted my first comment yesterday the 17th of Jan 2018. I have spent hours reading the LDS FamilySearch records for Hidalgo del Parral and see many records of Juan Rangel (y Viesma) but very few for Romo de Vivar even tho Felipe Reyes Romo states that Diego R de V and Maria Rangel were there from 1626-1656. One would expect to find entries for baptisms, deaths or even marriages over a 30 year period in the Parral records. What is your view on this and the issue of 2 Maria de Rangel? I hope I can find a descendency line I can trust.

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Genealogy Research