Hello Scott,

I don't doubt that the document that provides the ancestry of Petronila de
Moctezuma was found by don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa but as I have said
before we want to know what kind of document it is and when the book will
be published if they still plan to publish it and so on. That really is the
only document that we need at this moment. The others do not help in
proving the link between Petronila and Moctezuma II.

ITEM (2) The link that you provided
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=4&tx…
that the session has expired when clicked on. Apart from that the
link doesn't show on the Nuestros Ranchos site. Those type of links don't
show up.

Therefore, the advanced search has to be done at
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=100 but
you don't have to select anything before pasting MP-ESCUDOS,211 into
the Signatura:
field. All that has to be done after that is to click search then click on
the result from that search.

The same can be done without spaces with PATRONATO,245,R.5 and
MP-ESCUDOS,212

IITEM (4) I provided a link to the dispensa and the pertinent info in a
different post. I'll post it again since this email started a different
thread.

At the bottom left of image 319 of the dispensa that starts on 316 at
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377-19894-49?cc=1874591&wc…

En el pueblo de Nochistlan en dicho dia mes y año Ante su

Merced dicho señor Vicario pareció Matheo Gonzalez de

Robalacava español vecino de este dicho pueblo y declaro

que Bartolome Rodriguez Bajo viudo de Teresa Ponce y Doña

Tomasa Rosa de Ulloa hija legitima de Pedro de Ulloa

Marquez que al presente tratando contraer matrimonio

son parientes en cuarto grado de afinidad

por cópula licita porque la dicha Teresa Ponce fue

hija de Nicolas Ponce nieta de Doña Juana de Siordia

bisnieta de María Gabay y Teresa nieta de Martín
Navarro y de Doña Petronila de Montezuma.........

Then at the top right of image 319

Martín Navarro y Doña Petronila de Montezuma de los

cuales tambien esta en el mismo cuarto grado la

dicha Doña Tomasa Roza de Ulloa porque es hija de Pedro

de Ulloa Marquez nieta de María Ruiz de Esparza bisnieta

de Francisca Gabai y tercera nieta de los dichos

Martin Navarro y Doña Petronila Montesuma ?

coz y padres lexitimos de las dichas María Gabay y Fran

cisca Gabay de quienes se procrearon estas dos descen

dentias y que esto lo save este declarante con total serti

dumbre como deudo que es de todos los dichos y que los

conocio ocular mente a todos menos a los dichos Mar

tin Navarro y Doña Petonila de Montezuma = que

todo lo declara para descargo de su conciencia y que

para mayor seguridad lo jura por Dios nuestro

Señor y una señal de cruz sinque a ello le muestra

otra cosa que a ? a su alma y a la verdad y

que lo que lleva declarado lo es so cargo del juramento

que echo tiene….....dijo ser de edad de zetenta y ocho años

y lo firmo con su mersed dho señor bicario doi fe

entre Renglones = en que siendole leido este su dho cer

tifico =

D Luis Calvillo Matheo gon de
Jpseph gonz

Rrobalcaba
Rovalacava

Saludos,
Armando

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Scott Stockwell wrote:

> The parentage of the Gabadi sisters continues to be a subject of much
> discussion. I do not have any answers, but I do have much of the
> documentation that is discussed on the Research List.
>
> ITEM (1) of Armando's post: I have no knowledge of this document.
>
> ITEM (2) of Armando's post: This document, alleged to be from 1574, can be
> found at PARES <
> http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=4&tx…;.
> If you want to find it the long way, go to PARES .
> Select "Busqueda Avanzada" on the button bar. Go down to FILTRO POR ARCHIVO
> and select "Archivo General de Indias" from the pull-down menu. A second
> pull-down menu will appear beneath the first. Select "Mapas y Planos" from
> the second pull-down menu. Now go to the section just below, FILTRO POR
> SIGNATURA, and enter "MP-ESCUDOS,211" in the text field. If that doesn't
> work, click on the Seleccionar button. Once you get to the next page, go to
> the bottom of the list and click on the tiny red down-arrow to scroll the
> list. Click the "+" button next to MP-ESCUDOS. A list of document numbers
> will appear below MP-ESCUDOS. Use the red arrow again to scroll down until
> you see 211 and click on
> 211. That will take you back to the search page. Click on the Buscar
> button at the bottom of the page. That will bring up a page with the
> document listed. You can get document information by clicking on the title.
> You can view the document by clicking on the little camera icon in the DIG.
> column. MP-ESCUDOS,212 is another genealogy, principally for Isabel
> Moctezuma. MP-ESCUDO,197 is a general chart dated 1817 depicting
> Moctezuma's descendants. Mariana is listed, but none of her descendants are
> listed. MP-ESCUDO,211 would be a natural continuation of this chart.
>
> ITEM (3) of Armando's post: Mariana Moctezuma, child of Moctezuma II and
> Acatlan, was married to Cristobal Valderrama. Mariana and Cristobal had one
> child, Leonor. Leonor married Diego Arias Sotelo. Diego was exiled to what
> is now Algeria for his role in the Avila-Cortes Conspiracy (his brother was
> executed). According the "Moctezuma's Children" by Donald E. Chipman
> (2005), Leonor Valderrama and Diego Arias Sotelo had 3 children: Fernando
> (the only one to have children), Ana (a nun), and Cristobal. If Petronila
> Moctezuma is a descendant of Moctezuma II and Acatlan, Her parents would
> have to be Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma and Diego Arias Sotelo. According to
> Chipman, the children of Leonor were constantly in court trying to win
> control of their grandmother's encomiendo. I suppose that there are reasons
> that Petronila might not have been mentioned in these proceedings (Leonor
> willed her estate to her 3 children equally), but it seems odd. The
> children also
> fought among themselves for control of the encomiendo. Ana, a nun, gave
> control of her third to Fernando. Cristobal's widow fought for his third,
> plus half of Ana's. Having gotten full control of the encomiendo,
> Fernando's children sold it, so that it passed out of the family completely.
>
> ITEM (4) of Armando's post: The dispensation referred to is widely
> available in the ether and can be found at the FamilySearch.org site (Film
> Number 168605 - FamilySearch.org: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records,
> 1590-1995, Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1700-1705,
> Image 316 of 625). One other document, the 1677 will of Juan Siordia,
> daughter of Maria Gabadi and Pedro Fernandez de Vaulus, gives Maria's name
> as Maria Gabai Moctezuma. The will is available from the Digital Archives
> of Aguascalientes . Click the
> Login button. Enter sigue.publica as the User Name and publica as the
> Password. Click the Login button. In the index that comes up, right-click
> (two-finger-click on Mac) on the entry SSG-ARCHIVO-HISTORICO - ACERVOS
> COLONIALES SIGLOS XVII A XIX to get a pop-up menu. Select New Query from
> the menu. In the page that comes up next, enter JUANA DE SIORDIA in the
> text field for
> CONTRATANTES. Click the Submit button and you will be taken to the first
> page of the will.
>
> To me, the question of Petronila's ancestry is still up in the air. I'm
> with the camp that says that unless I have hard documentation on the
> subject, I remain skeptical.
>
> Scott Stockwell