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I was looking at old post on sharing when i found a comment that I made about hitting a dead end with Salvador Clemente De la Torre and his wife Maria Alexandra De La Torre. This post was originally dated 2009. I reposted it and want to provide an update to it. Through the help of Claudia Casillas, I was able to find not only the normal dispensa but also a diagram explaining the blood relationship of the bride and groom. This find connected me to the work I had done on Miguel Hidlago and that is how I descend from Luis (Lucino?)Lomellini.
It was only through Claudia Casillas sharing her work that I was able to get this information. I had been looking for it for decades with only negative results.

R A Ricci

Hi there Rick. I also have been looking into old posts to see what I have missed during my relative dormancy, and there’s some interesting stuff. Your mention of De la Torre caught my attention because I too have a De la Torre dead end that I have not been able to surpass for a really long time. I was going to post about it, but you beat me to it.

I descend from Joseph de la Torre and Isabel de Benavides, vecinos de Tepatitlán. Joseph de la Torre and Ma. Isabel de Benabides were married on Monday, 17 FEB 1710, in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México. Their marriage record literally reads as follows:

"Joseph de la Torre y Ysabel de Benabides, epañoles de esta feligrecia. ----- En el Pueblo de San Francisco de Thecpatitlán en Diez y siete Días de el mes de Febrero de mil setecientos y Diez años, casé por palabras de presente y velé in facie eclecie a Joseph de la Torre Español y a Ysabel de Benabides asi mismo Española Vecinos de esta feligrecia haviendo antes precedido sus declaraciones, información de su libertad y soltería y haverles amonestado inter missarum solemia tres Días festivos y no resultado impedimento ninguno, ni haverlo havido al tiempo de la celebración de el matrimonio fueron testigos, Juan de Mercado, Joseph Gutiérrez Español y otros más naturales que estuberion presentes; Padrinos, Andrés de la Torre y Doña Josepha del Castillo y Torre, y para que conste lo firmé . . . Juan de Portugal y Lozano (firma y rúbrica)."

Their marriage record is in Microfilm # 0218516, Marriages 1686-1735, Foja 48 vuelta. Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México. [I still have old citations from when I sourced them from Microfilms, but I have been methodically upgrading to the FamilySearch.org image citations]

As you can see the Acta does not mention the parents of Joseph and Isabel, and ever since I have been looking for a break-through. I have searched for a dispensa amongst their descendants to see if any of them needed marriage dispensations, but no luck. I suspect they were of course De la Torre-Ledesma and have recorded them as such. I have been looking for a connection to every family unit and marriage in his generation in the nearby Ranchos in Tepa, but to no avail; too many guesses…not enough answers.

¿Sabes algo sobre la ascendencia de Joseph de la Torre e Isabel de Benavides?

These are their descendants down to four generations:

1 Joseph de la Torre Ledesma Born: ca. 1688 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
.. +Isabel Benavides Born: ca. 1692 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Married: 17 Feb 1710 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
. 2 Joseph-Antonio de la Torre Ledesma Born: ca. 1720 in El Cerro Gordo, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
..... +Gertrudis de la Encarnación Pérez Born: ca. 1726 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Married: 8 Feb 1745 in San Francisco de Asís, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Father: Lorenzo Pérez Mother: Luisa Valdez
. 2 Eugenio-Marcelino de la Torre Ledesma Born: ca. 1723 in San Nicolás del Ocote del Cerro Gordo, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
..... +María de los Dolores de Ornelas-Arévalo Born: ca. 1727 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Married: 15 Jun 1745 in San Francisco de Asís, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
..... 3 Joseph-Gabriel de la Torre Born: ca. 1751 in San Nicolás del Ocote del Cerro Gordo, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +Anna María Patiño Born: ca. 1757 in El Ojo de Agua de la Cruz, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Married: 10 Jan 1776 in San Francisco de Asís, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Father: N. N., "Padre no conocido" Mother: Juana Gertrudis Patiño
........ 4 Marcelino de Jesús de la Torre Born: 4 Nov 1778 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
..... 3 María-Josepha del Carmen de la Torre Born: 16 Jul 1754 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
..... 3 María-Petra de la Torre Born: 13 Jul 1756 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
..... 3 María-Guadalupe de la Trinidad de la Torre Born: 11 Jun 1762 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
..... 3 Joseph-Francisco de la Torre Born: 23 Jul 1765 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +Maria-Francisca Ayala Born: ca. 1785 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Married: 27 Feb 1805 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: Juan Ayala Mother: Josepha Lopez
..... 3 Joseph-Clemente Brígido de la Torre Born: 5 Nov 1768 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +María de los Dolores García Born: ca. 1771 in El Gallero, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Married: 17 May 1789 in San Agustín, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Father: Juan-Faustino García Mother: María-Apolinaria Ramírez
........ 4 José-Matías de la Torre Born: 13 Mar 1793 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Luciano de la Torre Born: 8 Jun 1798 in Jesús María, Jalisco, México
............ +María-Manuela Jiménez Born: 17 Jun 1802 in El Llano Grande, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 21 Jun 1802 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 16 Sep 1818 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: Blas-Nicolás Jiménez Mother: María de la Encarnación Morales
........ 4 María-Leonarda de la Torre Born: 17 Nov 1800 in Jesús María, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Alejo de la Torre Born: 24 Jul 1809 in Jesús María, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Isidora de la Torre Born: 21 Feb 1815 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
..... 3 María de San Joseph de la Torre Born: 13 Dec 1772 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +Pedro Joseph García Born: ca. 1768 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Married: ca. 1790 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Father: Juan-Faustino García Mother: María-Apolinaria Ramírez
........ 4 María-Damacia García Born: 17 Feb 1792 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Nicolasa García Born: 29 Sep 1796 in Jesús María, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Basilia García Born: 15 Apr 1801 in El Gallero, Jesús María, Jalisco, México Baptism: 21 Apr 1801 in Jesús María, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Guadalupe de la Luz García Born: 1 Jul 1808 in El Gallero, Jesús María, Jalisco, México Baptism: 12 Jul 1808 in Jesús María, Jalisco, México
. 2 Joseph-Nicolás de la Torre Born: ca. 1735 in La Tuna, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
..... +Anna-Gertrudis Gutiérrez Born: 27 Nov 1745 in El Puesto de Sinagua, Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Baptism: 12 Dec 1745 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Married: 15 Aug 1764 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Father: Pedro Gutiérrez de Híjar y Mendoza Mother: María-Magdalena Vásquez de Lara
..... 3 Juana María de la Torre Born: ca. 1765 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +Juan-Joseph Patiño Born: ca. 1760 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México Married: Bef. Jul 1785 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México Mother: Juana-Gertrudis Patiño
........ 4 María-Francisca Patiño Born: 10 Apr 1786 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Ignacia de Jesús Patiño Born: 29 May 1788 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Miguel Sotelo Patiño Born: 17 Apr 1791 in El Sacamecate, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 2 May 1791 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Francisco Patiño Born: 8 Oct 1793 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Francisco Patiño Born: 19 Jun 1799 in El Tule, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 30 Jun 1799 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Félix Patiño Born: 21 May 1804 in El Sacamecate, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 25 May 1804 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Justa Patiño Born: 16 Aug 1809 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
..... 3 María del Carmen de la Torre Born: 12 Jul 1766 in La Tuna, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México Baptism: 3 Aug 1766 in Parroquia de San Francisco de Asís, Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +Joseph-Francisco Gutiérrez Born: 9 Mar 1764 in Las Tortugas, Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Baptism: 25 Mar 1764 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, México Married: 25 Feb 1800 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México Father: Juan-Joseph Gutiérrez de Mendoza Mother: María de San Juan de Santos y Bustos
........ 4 María-Ignacia Gutiérrez Born: 22 Feb 1803 in El Nopal, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 26 Feb 1803 in Parroquia de Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco, México
............ +José-Rafael Salcido Born: 29 Apr 1796 in El Saltillo, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 15 May 1796 in Parroquia de Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 29 Jan 1818 in Parroquia de Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: Joseph Guadalupe Salcido Mother: María-Gertrudis Hernández Gamiño
........ 4 José-Antonio Gutiérrez Born: ca. 1805 in El Portillo, Arandas, Jalisco, México
............ +María de San Juan Orozco Born: ca. 1802 in El Terrero, Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 12 Mar 1823 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: Joseph-María Tello de Orozco Mother: Angela Rafaela Remigia López
........ 4 José-Victor Gutiérrez Born: 21 Jun 1807 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Luisa Gutiérrez Born: 26 May 1809 in El Ocote, Arandas, Jalisco, México
............ +José-María Hernández Born: ca. 1807 in Los Chicos, Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 15 Nov 1830 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: Juan de Dios Nepomuceno Hernández Mother: María-Francisca Navarro
........ 4 María-Rafaela Gutiérrez Born: ca. 1811 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
............ +José-Félix Hernández Montes Born: ca. 1807 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 27 May 1830 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María de San Juan Gutiérrez Born: 4 Apr 1814 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Luz Gutiérrez Born: ca. 1816 in El Portillo, Arandas, Jalisco, México
............ +José-Tomás Hernández Cervantes Born: ca. 1814 in La Hermita, Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 20 Jan 1831 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
..... 3 María-Magdalena de la Torre Born: 30 Jul 1768 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
..... 3 Joseph-Antonio de la Torre Born: 24 Dec 1770 in Tepatitlán, Jalisco, México
......... +María-Vicenta de Jesús Lomelín Born: 6 Jan 1780 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México Married: Bef. Oct 1797 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: Luis Antonio de Lomelín Mother: María-Magdalena Gutiérrez
........ 4 José-Alejo de la Torre Born: 20 Jul 1798 in El Buche, Arandas, Jalisco, México Baptism: 29 Jul 1798 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
........ 4 María-Epitacia de la Torre Born: 26 Dec 1802 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José de la Encarnación de la Torre Born: 1 Apr 1805 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
........ 4 José-Luis de la Torre Born: 20 Jun 1807 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México
............ +María-Ventura de Jesús Ruiz Born: 20 Jul 1806 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Married: 8 May 1826 in Arandas, Jalisco, México Father: José-Marcelo Ruiz de Velasco Mother: María-Magdalena Alvarez
........ 4 José-Bernardo de la Trinidad de la Torre Born: 6 Sep 1812 in Arandas, Jalisco, México
..... 3 Joseph-Manuel de la Torre Born: 2 Jun 1773 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
..... 3 Joseph-Encarnación de la Torre Born: 6 Apr 1778 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México
..... 3 Joseph-Norberto Encarnación de la Torre Born: 25 Jun 1780 in Atotonilco el Alto, Jalisco, México

I descend from Joseph and Isabel through their son Joseph-Nicolas de la Torre, and his wife Anna-Gertrudis Gutiérrez, through their daughter María del Carmen de la Torre, on my mother’s side.

Oh, and by the way could you PLEASE!!! Post the link for the dispensa you mention above, must be from Aguascalientes where they got married. I have a feeling the Luis de Lomelín & María del Olmo connection from Querétaro you are talking about that connects to the marriage dispensation of Salvador Clemente De la Torre and his wife María Alexandra De La Torre, is through María Alejandra de la Torre’s great-grandmother Regina de Villaseñor y Cuevas, married to Miguel de Hermosillo, isn’t it? ¿Verdad? What more do you know about Francisco de Villaseñor y Cuevas and his wife María de Lomelín, parents of Regina. My sources indicate they were “Vecinos de La Barca”. I bet you have delved deeper into their origins in the Obispado de Michoacán…¡Me imagino qué sí!

Bueno...hasta pronto

Tu primo,
Steven Francisco Hernández López

Encontré esta partida de Bautismo de Francisca Villasenor Cuebas espero les sea de utilidad . tal ves ? tenga relación con su homónimo padre: Diego De Villasenor
madre: Gertrudes De Cuebas
Nombre Francisca Villasenor Cuebas
Sexo Female
Fecha de bautismo 18 Aug 1661
Lugar de bautismo SAN FRANCISCO,ANGAMACUTIRO DE LA UNION,MICHOACAN,MEXICO Número de lote o batch C60424-1
Sistema de origen Mexico-ODM
Número de microfilm de FamilySearch 608775

Carlos Peredo

Don Diego de Villaseñor casó el 1-jul-1637 en Morelia con Gertrudis de Cuevas Carbajal Samaniego según lo relata el padre Ibarrola en "familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid".

De esa pareja he localizado dos hijos :

Juana Villaseñor y Cuevas que casó en 1672 en Puruándiro con Nicolás de Ochoa Garibay (Ibarrola)

Francisca Villaseñor y Cuevas bautizada 18-ago-1661 en Angamacutiro, Mich. (LDS)

y muy probablemente Francisco de Villaseñor Cuevas el que casó con una María de Lomelín ya que ellos bautizan a José Cuevas Lomelín el 8-dic-1679 en Jocotepec,Jalisco. Este Francisco calculo yo que nació por 1640 y casó por 1665

Hubo otro Francisco de Cuevas que casó con otra María Lomelín, este fue Francisco de Cuevas Carbajal y su esposa fué María Villaseñor Lomelín bautizada el 3-may-1663 en Tocuitatlán, Jal.

Carlos

Oh muchas gracias por los aportes a las familias Villaseñor, Cueva(s) y Lomelín. Con tus datos ya corregí lo que tenía. Me puse a leer las cartas de Jaime Holcombe y noté que él mismo también los mencionó.

Me queda obvio que me necesito conseguir mi copia propia del libro del Padre Ibarrola.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Steven,
Ese libro es una pérola en nuestros estudios michoacanos y jalicienes ya que la família Villaseñor se desenvolvió tanto en tal manera que su posteridad cubran una grande extensión de territorio. Lo he buscado por tres años y nada. Hasta recientemente he localizado dos posibilidades de encontrarlo uno en Morelia y otro en San Francisco, CA vamos ver lo que encontramos. Te deseo éxito en sus investigaciones y estoy muy feliz en tenerte por aquí de nuevo.
Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino

Cualquier genealogista estudioso que se dice experto lo necesita en su biblioteca, me dejas saber si lo localizas en un lugar u otro.
Daniel

Tengo varios capítulos del "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid" que me proporcionó el señor Tony Campos, el real experto del Obispado de Michoacán. El tiene una copia la que yo podía consultar con frecuencia, y nomás por decidia le saque algunas copias, porque como está tan cerca se me hacía a la mano y de fácil acceso. Pero ya que me mudé de casa pues ya no es de tan fácil acceso. Me despegué de la genealogía por un tiempo por razones personales, pero estoy volviendo a poner toda mis cosas genealogicas en orden de nuevo, pero tengo mis cosas dispersadas y guardadas en cajas y no recuerdo exactamente donde quedaron. Mis libros publicados los tengo a la vista pero los que son copias de libros son los que no ubico por extraviados.

Para los que se encuentran en una circumstancia parecida y deseen localizar una copia del libro "Familias y casas de la vieja Valladolid" por Gabriel Ibarrola Arriaga y sacarle copia al libro entero ya que solo es de referencia y no se encuentra de venta por agotada la publicación. Las bibliotecas más cercanas donde tienen el libro en el Sur de California son Cal State Fullerton, también UC Irvine, y USC. Vean http://www.worldcat.org/title/familias-y-casas-de-la-vieja-valladolid/o…
para más información. Siempre es bueno tener más información ya que en la genealogia como en todo, no debemos juzgar antes de tener todas las piezas del rompecabezas. Cosas pasan por razones que a veces totalmente ignoramos, y pues pasan.

Yo iré pronto a Fullerton para sacarle copia al libro.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

I am also very interested in getting a hold of this book or copies of this book. A few years ago I went looking for a book that I especially was interested in at ucla. Unfortunately the information from the worldcat catalog was not enough for for the librarians to find the book. I was totally disappointed. I thought that once you had the reference number it would be a piece of cake to find in the library. Since it was in a very rare book section I was not allowed to actually look for it myself. They never found the book. Good luck finding this book. Please let me know what you find.
R A Ricci

Well I know that my dear old friend Tony Campos has an intact copy of the entire book.

The Worldcat catalog mentioned CSU Fullerton, UC Irvine, USC and a few others. I remember now, Tony Campos got his copy from Fullerton.

Fullerton is between his home and the Orange FHC where he did most of his research into the Obispado de Michoacan. He lives in Diamond Bar and would give a good excuse to pay him a visit.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Steven,
Thank your for your prompt response. I may ask you to make a copy of that book if my searches fail. I have contacted Morelia, Mexico City, Guanajuato, Guadalajara and some institutions in Madrid and nothing. I know the 1st edition is out of print, but recently they have reprinted into a modern edition in Morelia. I have one more bookstore I can email and see if they know anything. I was told they can also be purchased from a bookstore in San Francisco. I am growing inpatient as a genealogist, because I need it. I feel limited as to research without this book. I like you come from many of the principal families of the Bishopric of Michoacán. Méndez de Torres, Gutiérrez de Robles, Villaseñor, Martínez de Navarrete, Núñez de Sotomayor, Alvarez del Castillo are the least to mention. I could pay a service fee if you would like so you can get me a copy of the book when you go to Fullerton, if it not be any trouble.
When you go to Tony Campo's house, ask him if he has any additional information on the Méndez de Torres. I have only recently discovered through Mariano González Leal that the first or second gobernador de Michoacán after the independence was my relative Telésforo Méndez de Torres. I have also been in communication with Lic. Alejandro Mayagoitia in Mexico City who is getting me ready a certified copy of the probanzas de admitiación that my ancestors did for their admittance at the Real e Ilustre Colegio de Abogados de San Lorenzo in Mexico City in the beginning of the XIX century. I have been busy... :) Also, do you know if you have an extra copy of the Genealogical Journal, by SHHAR, vol I. It includes the Zamora Marriages from 1605-1622, 1638-1646 by Tony Campos and Ophelia Márquez. They also wrote about the Robledo family from Zamora and their connection in New Mexico. I have cousins from México City who including myself are extracting all the Spanish and Mestizos in the Zamora archives and hope to publish it in the near future. It will be a gold mine of information!
Un fuerte abrazo,Daniel

Carlos Peredo

Hola a todos !

Tuve la suerte de adquirir el libro del Padre Ibarrola hace unos dos años y medio y no me decepcionó ya que yo había visto los extractos que aparecen en google books y se veía que contenía información sobre muchos apellidos, particularmente (además de mi apellido ) aparecía en las vistas previas el nombre del abuelo de unos grandes amigos míos de Morelia y deseaba yo investigar su genealogía. Efectivamente, al comprar el libro pude ver buena parte de los ascendientes de mis amigos que resultaron ser de los LLanos-Valdés y de los Ruíz de Contreras.

Respecto de los Méndez de Torres siento decepcionarte Daniel, pero no se encuentran en el libro, hay sí varios Méndez así a secas, otros Médez de Castro, Méndez de Orozco y Méndez Pérez-Gil. Realmente me sorprende que no aparezca información sobre los Méndez zamoranos ya que fue y sigue siendo uno de los apellidos más ilustres de esa ciudad.

Solo por mencionar a uno de sus conspicuos exponentes, a mediados del pasado siglo descolló el gran empresario zamorano Alfonso Méndez Ramírez el cual fue suegro de una amiga de mi esposa que lleva el apellido Sahagún , otro de los destacados apellidos zamoranos.

Yo llevo sangre Méndez ya que mi abuela paterna era Concepción García Méndez hija de Dortea Méndez pero ella era de La Piedad, Mich. y no he podido avanzar en esa línea.

Saludos

Carlos A. Peredo

Thanks Steven.  I was able to borrow a copy from CSU East Bay which helped greatly with my Arias Maldonado ancestor.

Irma

----- Original Message -----

From: PacoHernandez73@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 9:31:21 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid

Well I know that my dear old friend Tony Campos has an intact copy of the entire book.  

The Worldcat catalog mentioned CSU Fullerton, UC Irvine, USC and a few others.  I remember now, Tony Campos got his copy from Fullerton.  

Fullerton is between his home and the Orange FHC where he did most of his research into the Obispado de Michoacan. He lives in Diamond Bar and would give a good excuse to pay him a visit.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Thanks Steven.  I was able to borrow a copy from CSU East Bay which helped greatly with my Arias Maldonado ancestor.

Irma

----- Original Message -----

From: PacoHernandez73@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 9:31:21 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid

Well I know that my dear old friend Tony Campos has an intact copy of the entire book.  

The Worldcat catalog mentioned CSU Fullerton, UC Irvine, USC and a few others.  I remember now, Tony Campos got his copy from Fullerton.  

Fullerton is between his home and the Orange FHC where he did most of his research into the Obispado de Michoacan. He lives in Diamond Bar and would give a good excuse to pay him a visit.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Dear Carlos,

You wrote:
Villaseñor Cuevas de Michoacan
Submitted by Peredo on Thu, 2014-02-06 15:14.
Carlos Peredo

Don Diego de Villaseñor casó el 1-jul-1637 en Morelia con Gertrudis de Cuevas Carbajal Samaniego según lo relata el padre Ibarrola en "familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid".

De esa pareja he localizado dos hijos :

Juana Villaseñor y Cuevas que casó en 1672 en Puruándiro con Nicolás de Ochoa Garibay (Ibarrola)

Francisca Villaseñor y Cuevas bautizada 18-ago-1661 en Angamacutiro, Mich. (LDS)

y muy probablemente Francisco de Villaseñor Cuevas el que casó con una María de Lomelín ya que ellos bautizan a José Cuevas Lomelín el 8-dic-1679 en Jocotepec,Jalisco. Este Francisco calculo yo que nació por 1640 y casó por 1665

Hubo otro Francisco de Cuevas que casó con otra María Lomelín, este fue Francisco de Cuevas Carbajal y su esposa fué María Villaseñor Lomelín bautizada el 3-may-1663 en Tocuitatlán, Jal.

Carlos

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It should read Nicolas Ochoa Garibay (Ibarlucea) The Ochoa family surname started out as Otxoa Ybarlucea (Ochoa Ibarlucea in Spanish). The family was Basque. They were from Elorrio.
Rick A. Ricci

Hello Steve,
You are right again, it is through my descendancy through Regina Villasenor y Cuevas. Though the marriage was in Aguascalientes, the marriage dispensation is in Guadalajara. When I found it, I would go back to it often because I was so thrilled to see what I had been looking many, many years. The diagram was a great find because it showed how they descended from two half siblings, from 2 different marriages, same father. The diagram is image 466 (1787 FHL source film 168072 Mexico)(Marriage dispensations Guadalajara)

Regina was married on 2feb 1689, La Barca Jalisco to Miguel Gonzalez de Hermosillo.

Diego Villasenor + Gertrudis de Cuevas
Francisco Villasenor (c. 1640 m1662) Maria Lomelin (1644)
Regina Villasenor Cuevas Lomelin (m2Feb1689) + Miguel Gonzalez de Hermosillo
I believe that francisco Villasenor and Maria Lomelin are related through the Villasenor Orosco and that she is the granddaughter of Luis LOMELI AND Maria de olmos. I am still gathering information to support this.

The source for Francisco's parents is not written down in my notes so I am very concerned with about where this information comes from. When I first started doing research I did not always document the source of my information. I learned my lesson and have been trying to reinvestigate much of my info to add sources. It was a big surprise to me to find out that this is a line that I need to reinvestigate.
I believe that the source is most likely Jaime Holcombe but I am not sure.
On Miguel hidalgos ancestry I did write all the sources down because there were so many already done that had little mistakes and I wanted to show evidence for every step. It wasn't until later that I realized that I need to do this for every bit of info.
Your de la torre line is living in the same location that Salvador Clemente de la torre and Maria Alejandra de la torre. He is most likely related to them. A grandfather of mine was born in Cerro Gordo, Tepatitlan .
The Patino were also related to this line. Juan de Villasenor married to Maria Patino.
R A Ricci

Hello Steve,
One thing to remember when searching for information about people in the Los altos de Jalisco in 1600 and 1700 s is that many of them practiced a tradition started with some Italian Jews of naming their children with their grandparents names, including surnames. Look for Isabel with a different last name. Check out their descendents for any clues as to a possible last name. You already know about this but we sometimes need reminders.
A couple of years ago I was reminded by Daniel Mendez that the h and f were interchangeable in these centuries. Even though I already knew this information, I had overlooked some key data because I did not keep this on my mind at times when working on a couple Of lines. I immediately went back over my info and found an important baptismal certificate. I then was also able to solve another puzzle that I had been working on for a long time.

The practice of naming children after grandparents and great grandparents was found in certain jewish families in Italy and parts of Spain. Not all Jews practiced this though. Some jewish groups thought it was disrespectful to name a child after their grandparent if the grandparent was still alive. In Italian papers I saw the order of how they were supposed to name their kids according to their order of birth. If a child died in infancy it threw the order off as some people named the next child after the one that died. Or if both grandmothers had the same name then it caused more confusion. This practice did not last long, and only in certain families.
Rick A Ricci

Joseph and Ysabel are my 6th great grandparents on my maternal line.

Nicholas de la Torre, married to Ana Gertrudis Gutierrez de Hermosillo are my 5th great grandparents.

Also, I just requested the book, Familias y Casas de Vallalodid, from our storage facility at USC. I will probably have my hands on it tomorrow morning. If so, I'll let you all know. The copyright is 1969, however, so don't know about making a complete copy of the book.

Anyways, I just wanted to begin a conversation with new found "Primos."

Eduardo Tinoco

Mucho gusto conocerte,

Well it seems we descend not only from Joseph de la Torre and Isabel Benavides, but also from their son Nicolas, and his wife Anna-Gertrudis Gutierrez de Hijar y Mendoza Hermosillo. In fact I descend from the Gutierrez line twice.

Despues platicamos...

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Dear Steve,

Even though Jose De la torre and Isabel Benavides are named as vecinos de Tepatitlan, I wouldn't be surprised if they were were born in Teocaltiche or Nochistlan Zacatecas as that is when many families migrated from that area to los altos de Jalisco. I have ancestors from those locations that moved to tepa and Jalos. The ones that went to Jalos were easier to trace back to Teocaltiche and Nochistlan because they added more information in their records. The ones that went to tepa were harder as sometimes they were more inconsistent as to providing this info. Since tepa and Jalisco weren't so far apart you could sometimes find the information recorded twice in both locations, with the Jalos record providing extra data. For example, my maternal grandfather came from families from the Jalos /San Miguel el alto area but he was born between Tepa and Jalos, much closer to Tepa, and the ranch was recognized as being under tepatitlan jurisdiction. His baptismal record is found inTepas records. But his baptism is also recorded for a second time in Jalostotitlan. This record provides a little bit more information and is beautifully handwritten so it is not a struggle to read the words.

The records you are looking for may be in Jalos, Teocaltiche or Nochistlan, Zacatecas as there is a presence of the de la torre Ledesma and Benavides in these areas.

The De la Torre Ledesma line leads back to Spain where two brothers are caught in mortal combat. We have already proven descent from one of these brothers. The "right hand" of the other brother that we do not descend from is the ancestor of the De la torre Ledesma. The "right hand" of the brother that we do descend from is the brother of an ancestor of ours. The story of where they all come together to meet and fight and what happens afterwards is a big story. The importance of the "right hand" men in the story and how it leads to a change in the family surname in order for one of the men's descendants to distance himself from his ancestors politics. The change in surname did what it was supposed to do and allowed these descendants to continue living in the same area and Move to the winning side, unlike their ancestor who was forced to flee to Portugal. We descend from the line with the changed surname.

Many people posted genealogies of his descent but they are missing generations and have mistakes as to the wives. The mistakes in the wives are understandable as these genealogists had most likely family tree listing the mothers with missing generations and family trees of the fathers missing generations,( missing different generations) so when they put it together the wives and husbands were put together in a wrong order. Sometimes the confusion came from someone having two wives and a mistaken genealogist considered one of the wives the wife of a similar named son. These family trees all skip a very important generation.this generation is important but is usually left out because people had assumed a direct son to son hand me down of the surname but in reality the surname skips a generation and comes from a maternal side. It goes son to son to daughter, to son. I have documentation from a second source that confirms this added generation. The daughter actually uses a different surname but her father and son do share the same family surname. This added generation also is important because it leads to Irish ancestors. I had previously not found any confirmed Irish ancestors. Now we can toast to some Irish ancestors on St Patrick's day.
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This added generation also explains the story attached to his family as to being a descendant of a certain office. Not every person that has an office becomes so attached to the office that it seems to become part of the surname. Titles of nobility often become part of the "name" but titles referring to an office are not always attached as if it were part of the name.

This line also connects our ancestors to a legend that has a basis of truth that comes from the struggle for rights in England. That is a Story left for another time.

Dear Steve,

Did you ever find the parents of Joseph de la Torre Ledesma and Isabel de Benavides? I have put aside all my other genealogy work for a few weeks and have only been working on the de la Torre Ledesma lines. The de la Torre Ledesma has become a big chapter in my book since it now connects to other ancestors of founding families in Spain. This coming Christmas vacation I hope to spend time in a few far off libraries gathering more information on the de la Torre Ledesma lines. My paternal grandmother is De La Torre.

Rick A.Ricci

Genealogy Research