Online Status

Por MADERA_32 |

By chance I found a baptismo record where my great great grandfather Juan Venancio Madera along with his wife Maria Josefa were padrinos of a "mulatto libre" named Juan Secundino - who is the son of Juan Quesada and Petra Acuna:

http://oi60.tinypic.com/24mi34h.jpg

Source: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18434-48381-54?cc=1874591&wc…

Here is a baptismo record of my great great grandfather "Juan Venancio Madera, "Espanol" of Rancho de Los Maderas near Huejuquilla, Jalisco year 1762 which is also near Hacienda San Antonio. Juan Venancio Madera was registered as "Espanol" and is the son of Francisco Madera and Maria de Huizar:

http://oi59.tinypic.com/2wlrqjt.jpg

Source: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18431-7954-10?cc=1874591&wc=…

By chance I also found a baptismo of my great great grandfather Francisco Madera who was the Padrino of a "mulatto libre" by the name of Ant. Cofracio, "mulatto libre" who is the son of Thomas Redondo of the Hacienda of Rancho De Los Maderas:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=takndd&s=8#.U3F4zoFdWO1

Source: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18431-7670-15?cc=1874591&wc=…

I would assume Francisco Madera is the same person

h

It is likely the same person, unless you know there were more than one (sometimes siblings) person with the same name, the place and time match, Godparents weren't always couples, thus the difference between María de Guizar and María Leocadia.

Well thank you for your comment RJQ.

Regarding my Great Great Grandfather Juan Venancio Madera born in "Rancho De Los Maderas in 1762 and registered as "Espanol" as stated in his baptism record. Now in 1780 when he was the Padrino of a Mulatto Libre that is from the Hacienda of San Antonio? That would mean my Great Great Grandfather Juan Venancio Madera was 18 years old when he became the Padrino (Godparents). And the female along with him was probably not his couple since he was only 18 at the time. Juan Venancio Madera and his wife Maria Josefa had a son name Patricio Madera in the year 1792 making him 30 years old.

I am wondering on how about he decided to become a Godparent at 18 years old to a Mulatto Libre from the Hacienda of San Antonio? Did he have friends, relatives at the Hacienda of San Antonio?

Could mean that Juan has traveled to the Hacienda of San Antonio which is nearby and today by car it would only take 15 minutes. I don't know how long it would take by horse or carriage. Here are a couple of pictures of "Rancho De Los Maderas" but now the name is "San Jose De Los Maderas"

http://oi58.tinypic.com/346mgw8.jpg
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=akgwhz&s=8

It is clear that your ancestors owned that place "Rancho de los Maderas" due to the name, in that time, having such a place means people of money and political influence, (money along didn't do the trick), in this type of families isn't rare to find a boy in its teens been already of some status within the family, at 18 he could be already in charge of some business in the ranch and beyond and thus he was wanted as Godfather even by non family members, like workers or residents of that ranch and surrounding areas. He (Juan) could own or have some business in San Antonio too, many people expanded their doings beyond their owned lands, by renting or partnership. In those days people traveled even more (due to ownership of land), don't find it rare when you see people going 20-50 miles often.

The mulato family were likely his (or his dad) employed people regardless of where they lived. Further investigation may give you more clues, but that is usually the case.

It looks like a nice place, you are lucky that the place still carries the family name, many places disappeared or changed their name completely.

I don't know abt your ancestor but it was the norm for Espanoles to be the godparents to the workers on their ranchos or estancia's. It appears young Espanol children were godparents along with a parent or relative. I think it was another way of saying their padrons would take care of them.. just my opinion
Linda in Olympia, Wa
On Tuesday, May 13, 2014 7:36 PM, "zacatecano020@hotmail.com" wrote:

Well thank you for your comment RJQ.

Regarding my Great Great Grandfather Juan Venancio Madera born in "Rancho De Los Maderas in 1762 and registered as "Espanol" as stated in his baptism record.  Now in 1780 when he was the Padrino of a Mulatto Libre that is from the Hacienda of San Antonio?  That would mean my Great Great Grandfather Juan Venancio Madera was 18 years old when he became the Padrino (Godparents).  And the female along with him was probably not his couple since he was only 18 at the time.  Juan Venancio Madera and his wife Maria Josefa had a son name Patricio Madera in the year 1792 making him 30 years old.

I am wondering on how about he decided to become a Godparent at 18 years old to a Mulatto Libre from the Hacienda of San Antonio?  Did he have friends, relatives at the Hacienda of San Antonio?

Could mean that Juan has traveled to the Hacienda of San Antonio which is nearby and today by car it would only take 15 minutes.  I don't know how long it would take by horse or carriage. Here are a couple of pictures of "Rancho De Los Maderas" but now the name is "San Jose De Los Maderas"

http://oi58.tinypic.com/346mgw8.jpg
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=akgwhz&s=8

Thank you Longsjourney for your comments. And it gets more interesting that I am just discovering? Ok. Now Juan Benancio Madera my paternal great great great grandfather from Rancho de Maderas was padrino of mulatto libre and so was Francisco Madera.

Now! I am from two Maderas because my Great Grandfather Calixto Madera (Born in Huejuquilla) had kids with my Great Grandmother Maria Clemencia Madera (born in Rancho De Los Maderas)

My Paternal Great Great Grandfather Juan Benanancio Madera is the Grandfather of Calixto Madera.

On Maria Clemencia Madera side, her father is Benito Madera of Rancho De Los Maderas and Benito's father is Marcelo Madera (Born 1774) of Rancho De Los Maderas which is him listed first in this Census of 1828. But I made a copy of the first page:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8408/ranchodelosmaderahuejuq.jpg

Now Marcelos Parents are Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela Perales of Rancho de Los Maderas.

Now here is where it gets more interesting!!!!!!!

I found two baptismo records of Lazaro Madera and Juana Michael Perales baptizing hijos Legitima of a mulatto libre and mestizo:

Pedro Mancial "Mulatto Libre" 1775 Hijo Leg. de Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela Perales:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/315ipax.jpg
Source: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18434-45356-39?cc=1874591&wc…

And Vizante Pablo (Mestizo) hijo leg de Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela Perales in 1773:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zgt743&s=8#.U3Wr29JdWO0
source: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18434-46055-19?cc=1874591&wc…

So what does this mean "hijo Leg." Did Lazaro Madera have kids with someone else besides his wife Juana Micaela Perales or what?

What I also know is that Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela Perales are the Padrinos of Juan Benancio Madera, "espanol" who is my paternal great great great grandfather also of Rancho De Los Maderas

Marcelo Madera born in 1774 is the son of Lazaro Madera and Micaela Perales as in the census of 1828 of Rancho De Los Maderas, Marcelo Madera is listed first and as the owner. He is the grandfather of Maria Clemencia Madera of Rancho De Los Madera who is the wife of my paternal great grandfather Calixto Madera

To zacatecano

"So what does this mean "hijo Leg." Did Lazaro Madera have kids with
someone else besides his wife Juana Micaela Perales or what?"

NO, That means parents were married.its just a statement that Church has to
keep

if you give a look at others baptism records , its almost always written :

1.-hijo legitimo
2.- hijo natural, means parents were not married,
3.- "hijo natural de" ( mother) y "padre desconocido".
4.- expositos o hijo de la iglesia, means no parents at all.

Good luck
Julieta

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Research [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] De la part
de zacatecano020@hotmail.com
Envoyé : viernes, 16 de mayo de 2014 08:56 a.m.
À : research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Objet : Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Great Great Grandfather

Thank you Longsjourney for your comments. And it gets more interesting that
I am just discovering? Ok. Now Juan Benancio Madera my paternal great
great great grandfather from Rancho de Maderas was padrino of mulatto libre
and so was Francisco Madera.

Now! I am from two Maderas because my Great Grandfather Calixto Madera (Born
in Huejuquilla) had kids with my Great Grandmother Maria Clemencia Madera
(born in Rancho De Los Maderas)

My Paternal Great Great Grandfather Juan Benanancio Madera is the
Grandfather of Calixto Madera.

On Maria Clemencia Madera side, her father is Benito Madera of Rancho De Los
Maderas and Benito's father is Marcelo Madera (Born 1774) of Rancho De Los
Maderas which is him listed first in this Census of 1828. But I made a copy
of the first page:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8408/ranchodelosmaderahuejuq.jpg

Now Marcelos Parents are Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela Perales of Rancho
de Los Maderas.

Now here is where it gets more interesting!!!!!!!

I found two baptismo records of Lazaro Madera and Juana Michael Perales
baptizing hijos Legitima of a mulatto libre and mestizo:

Pedro Mancial "Mulatto Libre" 1775 Hijo Leg. de Lazaro Madera and Juana
Micaela Perales:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/315ipax.jpg
Source:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18434-45356-39?cc=1874591&wc…
5781

And Vizante Pablo (Mestizo) hijo leg de Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela
Perales in 1773:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zgt743&s=8#.U3Wr29JdWO0
source:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18434-46055-19?cc=1874591&wc…
5781

So what does this mean "hijo Leg." Did Lazaro Madera have kids with someone
else besides his wife Juana Micaela Perales or what?

What I also know is that Lazaro Madera and Juana Micaela Perales are the
Padrinos of Juan Benancio Madera, "espanol" who is my paternal great great
great grandfather also of Rancho De Los Maderas

Marcelo Madera born in 1774 is the son of Lazaro Madera and Micaela Perales
as in the census of 1828 of Rancho De Los Maderas, Marcelo Madera is listed
first and as the owner. He is the grandfather of Maria Clemencia Madera of
Rancho De Los Madera who is the wife of my paternal great grandfather
Calixto Madera

I forgot to mention this from the beginning, that do not look to much into the "given race" by the church, this was just a really bad implementation of the "Limpia de Sangre" from the Inquisition times, but in México was more of a routine than a real genetic or genealogical study. It is also misunderstood by many the way it works, most people (thanks to the lack of documentation) would think that the parents combination would automatically credit a child with a race, for example Spanish plus Native equals Mestizo, but that was not the case, the actual look of the child plus the final decision of the priest would determine the given race, therefore you can find all types of combinations, at times even when the parents were "Spanish" if the kid was a little dark-skin would be considered Mestizo, Mulato, Morisco, Lobo, etc. And vice-versa.

The word Mulato was widely used and often in place for Mestizo, or others and rarely represent the actual race of the people, many times the same person is found of different races across different documents. in the 1700's many families in México where mix (as a matter of fact, many Spanish were already mix before they come to America) Is not rare to find race discrepancies among siblings. Also people of influence (even Natives) would be considered "Spanish" if they desired so.

Genealogy Research