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In my research of my Villaseñor Tovar lines I have seen many posts on the Internet with a wide range of dates. I hope a discussion is started between the people with different dates.

Here are some of my notes:

Don Diego de Burgos y Tovar was "alcalde de la fortaleza de Uclés " in the late 1400's and early 1500's During this time as alcade he was already on at least his second marriage.

From his first marriage he had a son named Luis Villaseñor that left many descendants in Spain.

From his second marriage to Doña Guiomar de Horosco y Sandoval he had three sons. I descend from two of their sons, Diego the eldest and Juan the youngest

Diego De Orosco Tovar (the eldest from the second marriage) was born in 1483, Francisco was born abt 1490 and Juan was born in 1500.

Since Diego de Orosco Tovar is born in 1483 and he is the product of a second marriage then his father could not have been born in 1480 as some have posted. It is impossible for the 1480 date to be correct. Let's say that his brother, Luis Villaseñor from his previous marriage is born three years earlier in 1480 and make Diego de Burgos at least twenty-five for his first son's birth. This would make Diego de Burgos birthdate prior to 1455. Most likely much earlier given that I am only adding a few years between the children of the two marriages.

Given the information that we know, Diego de Burgos Tovar (Villaseñor) was an older gentleman when his youngest son Juan Villaseñor Tovar y Orosco was born.

This is the lineage :

Juan de Villaseñor Serones and Elvira De Tovar Enriquez

Diego de Villaseñor y Tovar (born between 1405-1420) Isabel de Villaseñor (Alfonso Villaseñor)

Diego de Burgos Tovar (Villaseñor) (born prior 1455) and his second wife Guiomar Horosco y Sandoval (born prior 1481)

Juan Villaseñor-Tovar y Orosco (born 1500) and Catalina Cervantes

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

The descent of Alvar Fañez Minaya to Juan de Tovar, señor de Verlanga, Guarda mayor del Rey Juan II.

[Pedro Ansurez Señor de Valladolid and his wife Doña Ello have daughter, Bascuna]

1) Alvar Fañez Minaya, He had two wives. First wife Bascuna Perez (daughter of Pedro Ansurez) Alvar has a second wife Estephania, some genealogists list the second wife as the mother. Alvar is the father of Rodrigo Alvarez

2) Rodrigo Alvarez (alcaide o gobernador de Toledo) he was married to "unknown name Señora de Navia" who inherited the "casa de Navia en Asturias y solar de Montenegro en Galicia" Rodrigo is the father of Alvaro Rodriguez de Navia

3) Alvaro Rodriguez de Navia is also known as Alvaro Rodriguez de Castro and Urraca Alfonsez (daughter of Alfonso VII and Gontroda Perez/Pietre)

Notes: Alvaro is married to the widow Urraca de Asturias "Reina viuda de Navarra" nickname "Reina de Asturias", who is the illegitimate daughter of a King Of Castilla Alfonso VII and Gontroda. Gontroda's parents were both distant cousins of Alfonso VII. When Urraca was born she was taken from her mother and raised at the Royal court by the knigs sister. Urracas mother and the king only had a summer fling. Alfonso was married and so was Gontroda. Gontroda had three other children with her husband. Urraca was the Kings first born child as his wife had not yet become pregnant. There is a much bigger story to be told on Urracas life.

4) Fernando Alvarez (inherited the "solar de Tovar") adelantado de estremadura. No name on wife

5) Sancho Fernandez de Tovar (the first to use the surname Tovar even though Tovar has belonged to the family for many generations). Sancho was married to Teresa Sanchez, daughter of Sancho Sanchez, señor de Arellano and his wife.

6) Fernan Sanchez de Tovar, señor del Castillo Sarracin, married to his distant cousin Maria Arias de Villamayor, daughter of Juan Garcia Villamayor and Urraca Fernandez de Castro. They had a son named Sancho.

7) Sancho Fernandez de Tovar (d.1290) married Maria Palomeque and they are the parents of Ruy

8) Ruy Fernandez (aka Sanchez) de Tovar married to Elvira Ruiz Cabeza de Vaca, daughter of Gonzalo Perez and Aldara Ramirez

9) Fernan Ruiz (aka Sanchez) de Tovar (d.1384) married to Isabel Padilla, daughter of Pedro Lopez de Padilla, señor de Cantanazor and Leonor Sarmiento

10) Juan Fernandez de Tovar Señor de Tovar (died 1385) and "Almirante de Castilla" married to Leanor Elvira Enriquez de Castilla, daughter of Tello Alfonsez señor de Viscaya.

11) Fernan Sanchez de Tovar (d.1420) married to Juana Castañeda, señora de Fuentidueña

12) Juan de Tovar, Señor de Verlanga, (d.1446) guarda mayor del Rey Don Juan II married to his cousin Constanza Enriquez de Castilla, daughter of Alonso Enriquez, Almirante, señor de Medina de Rioseco and Juana Mendoza "la rica hembra"

R.A.Ricci, mygenes2000

Dear Chris,

Thanks to your input, I feel comfortable with the info that we have on the Viilaseñor-Tovar line that we have in Spain. I have many interesting stories to go with the line.

Unfortunately, I still have much work to do on the descent of this line in Mexico. I still need more conclusive evidence on one of my Villaseñor lines. I need more information on my ancestor Regina Villaseñor y Cuevas 's parents.

I also want to do an indepth study of all of the connections of the Villaseñor with Mexico's past leaders.

Thanks again,
Rick

Now that we have the Villaseñor Tovar line we can continue researching this lineage which has repeated descent from royalty. The most interesting stories that this lineage brings do not belong to its royal lines as we already descend from these royals from other lines. What this line brings us are stories that bring to life the ambitions of descendants of younger siblings of royalty and illegitimate descendants who want to also become kings and queens of their own realm. These political ambitions bring to light why many kings felt threatened by family members.

Dear Chris,

What had thrown me off the he track on the Villaseñor line was a poor transcription that stated Alfonso F Villaseñor had served King Fernando III, el amoroso. This false information places Alfonso F Villaseñor pre 1252 which would have meant a couple missing generations or the men were elderly when they had their children.Once it was cleared up that it was a mistake then it became clear that it was not missing any generations and that it only went to the early 1300's and not the 1200's.

It was your input that led me to look at other sources that had the correct information that the king was Not Fernando III but Enrique III. You have been a tremendous help.

Thanks again,
Rick

Hello Chris,

1) Alfonso F. Villaseñor and Elvira Osórez (daughter of Fernando Osórez maestro de
Santiago) [the story that Alfonso F Villaseñor lived and served the King before 1252 cannot be true since his father in law passed away in 1383.

2) Only son:
Fernan A. Villaseñor marries Aldonza Gutierrez de Tapia

Two sons Fernando and Diego.
Fernando was alcaide de Calatrava whose daughter, Aldonza de Villaseñor, married Fernando Vasquez de Acuña

3) Diego Villaseñor alcaide de Segovía married to Maria Serones (Seron)

4) comendador Juan Villaseñor Seron (Serone/Seronis) married to Elvira de Tovar y Enriquez de Castilla

Rick A. Ricci

Hi Rick,

I don't know who Elvira Tovar Enriquez parents are, but Juan de Villasenor y Serones is the son of Diego de Villaseñor, Alcaide de Segovia, y de Doña María Seronis aka Seron.

Chris

Dear Chris,

Those are the parents I have for Juan Villaseñor. In order for the parents of Elvira to make sense, she had to have been born prior to a certain date. Seeing that prior date made me Research some more, and come up with the dates and the prior dates that I came up with. I still would like to find where the earlier dates that are posted came from and see if any are valid.

For the parents, grandparents, and great grandparents to make sense then Juan Viilaseñor also had to have been born in the latter part of the 1300's. I have more research to do on the ancestors of the 1400's before I present the information on the family in the 1300's and 1200's..

From the 1200's to the 1500's these Villaseñor men live long lives and have children well after forty years of age,

Thanks for your help,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I noticed Danny has been adding this family on Wikitree. He's done a very good job and included many secondary sources. I just added a few more profiles to this family and adjusted the dates on some with updated information. I just read your post above regarding Elvira Tovar Enriquez born in the latter part of the 1300s, unfortunately, I did not adjust her date that far back and I don't think that would fit with the known information.

http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/de%20Villaseñor-Family-Tree-31

Chris

Dear Chris,
Based on the information that I have in my notes, i have Elvira Tovar born prior to 1386 and most likely earlier. I need to do more research to confirm the information in my notes.

Thanks,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I think that information is incorrect. It wouldn't work for multiple reasons. If you look at the known information in the sources on the profile, you'll see that it would be impossible. The earliest possible that Elvira could be born would be about 1400 for all the known information to be correct. If I were to move the date of Elvira back to 1385, I would have to move everyone else back 45 years. That would move the birth of Alfonso Fernández de Villaseñor to 1308 who served in the wars of King Enrique III of Castile. Except, Enrique III didn't become king until 1393, which would which would put Alfonso Fernández de Villaseñor in his 90s during the wars of King Enrique. It's not likely that Alfonso was a nearly 100 year old commander. Same with all the other biographies, their known titles and positions wouldn't be accurate. If you look at Fernando Osorez, he also would be around 90 years old when he's made master of the order of Santiago. It just doesn't work.

Chris

Dear Chris,

I agree that there is a problem with the information on the dates on Alfonso Fernandez de Villaseñor and his father. His father is listed as being in service with a much earlier king so there seems to be a problem of a missing generation, either after Alonso Fernandez Villaseñor or before. Much research is needed to see if we can figure out the correct lineage. That is why I didn't want to post the 1200's and 1300's of the Villaseñors as there seems to be a missing generation. As to Elvira Tovar it is a stretch for her to be born in 1376 as some people have posted. That is why I moved it to prior 1386 as she descends from one of two couples. If she was born before 1386 she was most likely born to couple "A."If she was born after 1386 then she was a grandchild to couple "A." Some people have posted that she is the great grandchild of couple "A" but dates rule that out.

The more information we add, the greater chance we have of figuring this out.
Thanks,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I notice the online "unsourced" genealogies have her as the daughter of Juan de Tovar, Señor de Berlanga and Costanza Enriquez. They actually makes sense since they were married in 1423, that would place her around 1425, but moving Elvira any earlier than 1400 messes up known information about the other Villaseñores.

Chris

She is a daughter of a Juan de Tovar but the question was which of the three possible Juan's. Some genealogist even add a fourth since a Sancho is also referred to sometimes as Juan Sancho. But your two cents actually rule out three of them and that leaves Juan de Tovar Sr. De Berlanga and Constanza Enriquez. We already knew that she was related to juan de Tovar Señor De Verlanga because in one document it said she was of his family but it did not indicate the precise relationship which had me thinking other possibilities. You have to be careful when researching this couple as his son juan de Tovar is also married to a Constanza but this Juan has a different title and both Constanzas have well known ancestries which distinguishes them.

If you wonder why I did not automatically identify her as a daughter when she is identified as family it is because in another line that I was researching in Spain/Italy I came up with the same wording and my ancestor ended being a niece and not a daughter.

There is still an issue on the Villaseñor side as there has to be a missing generation if the stories on their respective service to the kings are true. What was throwing me off the correct time frame for Elvira was the missing generation on the Villaseñor side.

Constanza Enriquez also went by Constanza Castilla(o) as the full name was Constanza Enriquez de Castilla

Thanks again Chris,

Rick

Hi Rick,

Are you just asking if these dates make sense? I guess so. I agree that Diego de Villasenor that's married to Guiomar de Orozco y Sandoval can't be born in 1480. If Beatriz Orozco de Tovar was born in New Spain around 1512 which is where I have her in my notes, than Diego Orozco Tovar that's married to Ana Mexia would probably be born between 1480 and 1490, which would move Diego de Villasenor that's married to Guiomar de Orozco y Sandoval to 1460 or earlier. I think your date of 1483 for Diego Orozco Tovar is probably fairly close, but you give his mother Guiomar de Orozco y Sandoval's birth as prior to 1481, it would have to be a lot prior for her to be old enough to give birth to Diego Orozco Tovar by 1483 or there about. I do think Diego Orozco Tovar is at least 10 to 15 years older than the conquistador Juan de Villasenor, but you need to make sure that when you adjust Guiomar de Orozco y Sandoval's birth earlier, that she's still able to have children in 1500 when Juan de Villasenor is born. I wouldn't set her birth any earlier than 1460.

Chris

Dear Chris,

I was asking if it made sense since it is different than what many are taking as fact. I do have more information that I am working on, but it only made sense If some of the information that people are posting is false.

I even originally felt that Juan Villaseñor Orosco had to be born much earlier since his brother is born much earlier, but he is correctly identified as being born in 1500, and as the last born brother.

I have parents for Juan Villaseñor Serones and Elvira Tovar y Enriquez de Castillo, but these parents didn't make sense with the data that is being posted. After looking at more data, I was able to come up with these dates. I agree with you that some of the people were born earlier than the dates that I wrote prior to. What I meant by writing prior to a date was that they could not had been born after that date. Many people have these people born after those dates which does not coincide with the pieces of the puzzle that we do have.

As to Guiomar's birthdate you are right, it should have said prior to1471 as I don't think she had a child when she was younger than 12 and yes, she was most likely born closer to 1465. If she was born in 1465 than she would have been 18 for the birth of Diego and 35 for the birth of Juan.

Thank you Chris,
Rick

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