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I descend from Joseph Eusebio Tello de Orosco and Ana Beatriz Gutierrez

They are related "segundo grado" according to their marriage record. That would mean that they are first cousins. The record also states that there is a marriage dispensation, but I haven't found it. I have her ancestors but am having trouble finding his. I am not even sure if I am correctly reading his parents names. I would like to hear other members opinions as to his parent's names.

Here is the link:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KMSZ-P1?mode=g&i=158&wc=3J…

Joseph Husebio De Orosco
Spouse's Name Beatris Gutierres
Event Date 12 Jun 1752
Event Place Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCF3-WPV : 15 July 2015), Joseph Husebio De Orosco and Beatris Gutierres, 12 Jun 1752; citing Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 218,517.

Plan B would be to get all her uncles and aunts families together and see if I can figure out how they are first cousins.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

It appears that Joseph Eusebio de Orozco's parents, Juan Antonio de Orozco/Gutiérrez and Juana Efigenia Franco, married in Tepatitlán ca. 1720, but I have not been able to locate their marriage document.

Based on the marriage dispensation details, Joseph Eusebio Gutiérrez de Orozco & Anna Beatriz Gutiérrez were not first cousins (parentesco de consanguinidad en segundo grado igual) but rather half-aunt/half-nephew (parentesco de consanguinidad en primero con segundo grado). This is based on the evidence "la duda que hay es que dicen que Juan Antonio de Orozco mi padre es hermano de Ana Beatriz Gutiérrez mi pretensa".

Acta matrimonial de Joseph Eusebio Gutiérrez de Orozco & Anna Beatriz Gutiérrez - 12 Junio 1752, Tepatitlán

Fueron dispensados de un parentesco de consanguinidad en segundo grado igual.

"En esta Santa Yglesia Parrochial de tecpatitlán en dose días del mes de Junio de mill Setecientos Sinquenta y dos años, casé y Velé infacie Eclecie Según orden de Nuestra Santa Madre Yglecia a Joseph husebio de orosco, español originario y vecino desta feligresía en el puesto del carniSero, hijo Lexítimo de Juan Antonio de orosco y de Juana Efigenia franco; con Beatris Gutiérres, española originaria y Vecina desta dicha feligresía en dicho puesto hija Lexítima de Joseph Gutiérres y de Petra de Ornelas; fueron dispenzados por el Mui Illustrísimo Señor Venerable Dean y Cabildo en Segundo grado de conSanguinidad a quienes Amonesté en tres días festibos inter Misarum Solemnia Según lo dispuesto por el Santo Concilio de trento de cuias diligencias no resultó ympedimento alguno como ni al tiempo de la Selebración de dicho Matrimonio al que se allaron precentes Mathías Básques, Javier Serbín, y Sebastián de Lomelín, y por que conste lo firmé. . . . Br. Anttonio Caro (rúbrica)."

Acta matrimonial de Joseph Eusebio Gutiérrez de Orozco & Beatriz Gutiérrez - 12 Junio 1752, Tepatitlán

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Tepatitlán de Morelos, San Francisco de Asís, Matrimonios 1736-1771 [Image 159 of 495] - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18570-63719-21?cc=1874591&wc…

Dispensa matrimonial de Joseph Eusebio Gutiérrez de Orozco & Beatriz Gutiérrez - 19 Mayo 1752, Tepatitlán

Fuente: "México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-66SS-7M?cc=1874591&wc=3J49… : 28 June 2014), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > image 18 of 632; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).

Firma de Joseph Eusebio de Orozco - 19 Mayo 1752, Tepatitlán

Fuente: "México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-66SS-R8?cc=1874591&wc=3J49… : 28 June 2014), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > image 19 of 632; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).
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If that is indeed the case, then the father of Anna Beatriz Gutierrez, Joseph Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (h.l. de Sebastián Gutiérrez de Hermosillo & María Galindo y Becerra) who married Petronila de Ornelas y Valdivia, had children before his marriage in 1702. I have identified at least two sons based on marriage dispensations. It appears that the mother of these premarital illegitimate children was a woman surnamed Orozco, but not necessarily Tello de Orozco. She could be an Orozco Agüero, or even de Loza/Orozco.

Firma de Joseph Gutiérrez de Hermosillo - 15 Enero 1702, Tepatitlán

Fuente: "México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6TSJ-C9?cc=1874591&wc=3J44… : 28 June 2014), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > image 437 of 615; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).

As I had mentioned, Joseph Gutiérrez de Hermosillo had at least two premarital illegitimate sons, named Juan Antonio and Andrés Gutiérrez (o Orozco) - "que D.n Joseph Gutiérres obtuvo por hijos en su Matrim.o a D.n Juan Antt.o y a D.n Andrés Gutiérrez, que es el Primero" - before he married Petronila de Ornelas in 1702.

Dispensa matrimonial de Joseph Gutiérrez de Hermosillo & Petronila de Ornelas - 15 Enero 1702, Tepatitlán

Fueron dispensados de un parentesco de consanguinidad en cuarto grado igual.

Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1699-1707 [Image 436-440 of 615] - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18416-70311-1?cc=1874591&wc=…

Tronco: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6TSV-WD?cc=1874591&wc=3J44…

I connected these premarital sons of Joseph Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, via the marriage dispensation of Juan Joseph Becerra & Anna Rafaela Gutiérrez, in 1790

Dispensa matrimonial de Juan Joseph Becerra & Anna Rafaela Gutiérrez - 22 Enero 1790, Tepatitlán

Fueron dispensados de un parentesco de consanguinidad en tercero con cuarto grado.

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1790 [Image 793 of 1352] - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18415-1897-12?cc=1874591&wc=…

I tried locating the marriage record of Andrés Gutiérrez and Josepha de Aguirre, so see if it mentioned their parents, but to no avail.

In regards to Juana Efigenia Franco, wife of Juan Antonio de Orozco/Gutiérrez...since no marriage record has yet been found, I discovered the name of Juana Efigenia Franco's mother to be Anna Carranza (h.l. de Andrés Sánchez Carranza & Antonia Venegas), who married an unknown N. Franco, in Tepatitlan. Because she also has Venegas in her ancestry, in 1759 Sebastián Ramírez Becerra & Manuela Venegas needed a marriage dispensation (de Afinidad). Sebastián's first wife was Anna Gertrudis Gutiérrez, daughter of Juan Antonio Gutierrez/Orozco and Juana Efigenia Franco.

Dispensa matrimonial de Sebastián Ramírez Becerra & Manuela Venegas - 23 Enero 1759, Tepatitlán

Fueron dispensados de un parentesco en tercero con cuarto grado de afinidad.

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1757-1759 [Image 58 of 629] - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18403-77881-31?cc=1874591&wc…

Tronco: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-66ST-J3?cc=1874591&wc=3J49…

Acta matrimonial de Sebastián Ramírez Becerra & Anna Gertrudis Gutiérrez - 25 Mayo 1741, Tepatitlán

Fuente: "México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KMSD-DP?cc=1874591&wc=3J8D… : 28 June 2014), Tepatitlán de Morelos > San Francisco de Asís > image 45 of 495; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).

Espero que esto te ayude primo.

Atentamente,
Steven Francisco Hernández López

Dear Steven,

Thank you very much for sharing your findings and for providing sources. Happy to go a little further on this line. I am assuming that this Andres Sanchez Carranza descends from the Andres Sanchez Carranza that is a son of Diego Sanchez Carranza. if I remember correctly, the Sanchez Carranza branch of the family had at least a couple other entanglements where they needed marriage dispensations.

I hadn't heard from you in a while and was afraid that you had abandoned genealogical research! So it was a double blessing, first to see that you have continued researching, and second that your research is helping me with my research. Please let me know if you have any lines that you want me to research.

Gracias Primo,

Rick

I called up a distant cousin to let him know what we had found out about Joseph Eusebio Tello de Orosco and Ana Beatriz Gutierrez. He was shocked about the information and immediately said something about me wanting to keep this news about my family tree a secret. He went on and on as if only I descend from Joseph Eusebio Tello de Orosco and Ana Beatriz Gutierrez. He was so disgusted that I never got around to telling him that the reason I was calling him was because he too descended from Joseph Eusebio Tello de Orosco and Ana Beatriz Gutierrez.

By my calculations, using the variable of 8 to 10 as the number of generations in a 265 year period, and an average of five children per generations, there are between 400,000 and 2,000,000 descendants of Joseph Eusebio Tello de Orosco and Ana Beatriz Gutierrez spread out mainly in Tepatitlan, Pegueros, Valle de Guadalupe, and Jalostotitlan. And yes, many thousands of descendants no longer live in Los Altos de Jalisco. There are at least a few thousand of his descendants in California. I know of at least three other nuestrosranchos members that descend from this line.

This is not the first scandalous information that.i have discoverered about my ancestors, their siblings and cousins. If I had not wanted to find scandalous or awkward stories, I should have found a different hobby. If you are a serious genealogist, you will dig up information that some people would rather stays buried.

Sooner or later, I will see my distant cousin and hand him the line showing his descent from Joseph Eusebio Tello de Orosco and Ana Beatriz Gutierrez. I kind of enjoy him thinking that he has a secret about my family tree. The longer that he thinks that it only pertains to me, and not to him, the bigger the surprise when he finds out that it is his line also.

Rick A. Ricci

Anna Beatriz Gutierrez's parents are

Joseph Gutierres De Hermosillo
Spouse's Name Petronila De Ornelas Y Baldibia
Event Date 22 Feb 1702
Event Place Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico

I believe that Joseph Eugenio Tello de Orosco's parents are Juan Antonio Tello de Orozco and Juana Efigenia Franco. But I'm not sure. They are related related "segundo grado". I thought that meant first cousin. Is there another relationship that is "segundo grado?"

Where would I look for the marriage dispensation?

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

Mr. Ricci,

Those are the correct names of the parents. They're mentioned here in Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara in this somewhat interesting dispensa:

Tepatitlán de Morelos. Jal Mayo 19 de 1752 Exp 27 - Dispensa ad cautelam del impedimento dudoso de primero con segundo grado de consanguinidad por copula ilícita - Joseph Eusebio de Orozco, español de 25 años de edad, originario y vecino de esta feligresía de San Francisco de Tecpatitlan. en el puesto del Carnicero, hijo legítimo de Juan Antonio de Orozco y de Juana Efigenia Franco, con Ana Beatriz Gutiérrez, española de 26 años de edad, originaria y vecina de esta dicha feligresía en dicho puesto, hija legítima de Joseph Gutiérrez, difunto y de Petra de Ornelas Declaración del pretenso Dicen tenemos parentesco aunque no se sabe ser cierto pues cuando dicho mi padre se casó con dicha mi madre, he oído decir no se amonestó por hijo natural de Joseph Gutiérrez, sino por hijo de padres no conocidos, y la duda que hay es que dicen que Juan Antonio de Orozco mi padre es hermano de Ana Beatriz Gutiérrez mi pretensa Se otorgó la dispensa en la Ciudad de Guadalaiara. en 30 de mayo de 1752. 8 fojas

Danny C. Alonso

Danny,

Thank you for helping me out. That was unexpected. I guess Juan Antonio's mother was Tello de Orosco. I still cannot find anything on Juana Efigenia Franco. I did know something was out of the ordinary because the surnames were not the right surnames for first cousins. Please send me the link so that I may inspect the record for more clues.

Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci

Genealogy Research