Information on Miguel Munoz (parents or siblings)? before 1634

Miguel Munoz and Mariana Gomez de Portugal married Feb 1st 1634.

They were married in Santa Maria de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco and had 3 chidren.

Diego Munoz b Sept 11 1634

Antonio Munoz b Aug 28 1636

Juan Munoz b Jul 22 1638

They were all born in Santa Maria de los Lagos, Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco

I descend from Juan

 

Does anyone have any information about Miguel to find more of my paternal line?

Any assistance on places to check on this would be greatly appreciated.

It is interesting to note that there is extensive information on line showing that his wife Mariana Gomez de Portugal is a direct descendant of King Manual the 1st of Portugal, although illegitimate.

Thanks 

David Munoz
 

Comentarios

Comentario

Son Diego is named with the compound last name Muñoz Rubio in his marriage with Josefa Martín de Bocanegra:

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5T4-B?cc=1874591&wc=3J6F-… : 15 December 2021), Lagos de Moreno > Santa María de los Lagos > Bautismos de hijos legítimos 1634-1665 > image 410 of 523; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

and also in his marriage with Mariana del Ángel (de los Ángeles), in which his father is named as Miguel Muñoz Rubio:

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5TH-8?cc=1874591&wc=3J6F-… : 15 December 2021), Lagos de Moreno > Santa María de los Lagos > Bautismos de hijos legítimos 1634-1665 > image 440 of 523; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

The baptism of Mariana, daughter of Diego Muñoz and Josefa de Bocanegra, has the godparents as Francisco Bravo and María Rubio (Rubio Godínez):

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5BC-Q?cc=1874591&wc=3J6F-… : 15 December 2021), Lagos de Moreno > Santa María de los Lagos > Bautismos de hijos legítimos 1634-1665 > image 306 of 523; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

María Rubio (Rubio Godínez) maternal grandparents are Pedro Hernández and María Rubio.

 

Saludos

Austin Pérez

 

 

Comentario

Austin 

First off I would like to thank you for looking into this for me.

Looking at the birth records for the the 3 boys Antonio, Diego and Juan, Who were born to Miguel Munoz and Mariana Gomez. There is no reference of the Rubio name attached to Miguel. However the baptism record for child of Diego and Josepha is in the right time period. Diego's parents were listed as Miguel Munoz and Mariana Gomez in his baptism, so I don't think Rubio is part of this family, or at least I have not been able to confirm yet. The search continues .

Thanks again

David M.

 

New book/De nobleza inmemorial

I have completed my fourth book, titled De Nobleza Inmemorial, which documents families of proven nobility from Nueva Galicia and New Spain. The work consists of eleven chapters and eight essays on the subject of hidalguía, and will feature a prologue by my friend Jorge Barba Gómez, author of several books of genealogy.

The book will first be available in Spanish on Amazon, with an English edition to follow.

Chapters:

  1. Los Condes de la Maza y sus parientes en América: La rama michoacana de los Gómez Fraile.
  2. El legado de un explorador: Los descendientes de Juan Ponce de León.
  3. Los Orozco y Toledo: Un linaje entre la historia y la leyenda.
  4. Una oligarquía invisible en el occidente novohispano.
  5. Los Ruiz de Esparza: Desde Pamplona hasta el nuevo mundo.
  6. Los Señores de Mirafuentes: El viaje de los Fernández de Balduz al nuevo mundo.
  7. Los Itúrbide y Huarte: La familia detrás del primer imperio mexicano.
  8. Una poderosa unión: los Villavicencio y los Colmenares.
  9. Los Grijalba en la provincia de Colima.
  10. Los Sotelo

Comentarios

Comentario
Mr. Erick Reynoso, congratulations for your great work on the book, reading it has been thrilling and exquisite, besides the great quality of the print and the book itself, the information that you share has been really interesting in many dimensions. I hope we are yet to see many of your wonderful publications. Best regards.
Comentario

Dear Rick:

Thank you very much. The book is available on Amazon. I expanded it more so the content is the following:

1

Ontología de la nobleza y la hidalguía

2

La reconfiguración de la élite en Nueva España

3

El control del occidente novohispano: Nueva Galicia y Michoacán

4

El análisis técnico de la probanza

5

La ambigüedad de la nobleza: Orfandad probatoria en los linajes de alto perfil

6

Los condes de la Maza y sus parientes en América

7

El legado de un explorador: Los descendientes de Juan Ponce de León 

8

Los Orozco y Toledo: Un linaje entre la historia y la leyenda

9

Una oligarquía invisible en el occidente novohispano: Los Navarro

10

Los Ruiz de Esparza: Desde Pamplona hasta el Nuevo Mundo

11

Los Señores de Mirafuentes: El viaje de los Fernández de Balduz a la Nueva Galicia

12

Los Itúrbide y Huarte: La familia detrás del Primer Imperio Mexicano

13

Un digno enlace: Los Villavicencio y los Colmenares

14

Los Grijalba en la Provincia de Colima

15

Los Sotelo: Nobleza zamorana en la Nuevo Mundo

16

El linaje de los Pardo de Lago en la Nueva España

17

Antiguos Linajes y Nuevos Horizontes: La presencia de los Solares de Tejada, Valdeosera y la Divisa del Solar de la Piscina en la Nueva Galicia

18

Los parientes del Marqués del Valle: Los de Ávalos Saavedra 

19

La nobleza militar de Japón en la Nueva Galicia

20

Los Núñez de Soto y los Pantoja: Nobleza Extremeña en La Conquista

21

El rompecabezas genealógico: descifrando la sangre del Dr. Ignacio Fernández de Córdova

22

La controvertida ascendencia de Juan de Portugal

23

Los González Carrillo en Michoacán

24

Los Ponce y Somoza desde Monforte de Lemos

25

Buscando la verdad: el licenciado Diego Téllez Girón, los Machicao y Marcos Alonso de la Garza

26

Los Rentería y los Mújica: los vascos en la empresa indiana

27

El rastro de los Lomelín en Nueva España

28

Cortés y Alvarado: Conquistadores de Nobleza Inmemorial

 

Inmemorial 2.0: Ética y memoria en la Era de la Inteligencia

New Member

Greetings, 

I began my genealogy journey several years back researching my maternal grandfather's line.  My grandfather's mother (my great-grandmother) is originally from Ciudad Guzman (dob 1874) and had the maiden name of "Aguallo." A dear uncle of mine (now departed) would tell me stories about her maiden name and how it was linked to a small town (Nochistlan).  

During the COVID shutdown I followed the "aguallo" line back to the mid 1750's in Ciudad Guzman (Zapotlan Grande).  I found records (baptisms, marriage and death) on Family Search belonging to the "aguallo" line.  The oldest direct relative I found in Ciudad Guzman was Jose Vizente Ferrer de Aguayo (married in 1779), originally from Nochistlan, per his IM (a kind soul/wikitree moderator found the unindexed IM).  Unfortunately, I hit a wall at the time and could not find any additional documents for Jose Vizente Ferrer (ie a baptism record).  His marriage registry and IM identify one Antonio Mergil/Margil de Aguayo as his

Comentarios

Comentario

Don’t give up on the line “Antonio de Aguayo (son of Joseph de Aguayo and Manuela de Aguilar) married to Maria "Camacho Hermocillo" (not Yanez).”

More research is needed on Maria CamachoHermosillo    She may be the same Maria that is named Yañez    More research is needed to find out if they are the same person    In my research I have found many people, especially woman during this time frame, to be using different surnames 


Good luck in your research,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Rick,

that thought had occurred to me but surnames are completely different and i didn't want to fall into some sort of confirmation bias.  perhaps i will search a bit more on camacho hermocillo to see if something jumps out.  

thanks for the insight.

Jerry Lopez

 

 

 

Comentario

Hello JL,

Welcome to this group! 

I'm a novice to Spanish Colonial genealogy, but I made a couple of reminder notes for myself from the info in your post. If I run into anything in the future that may assist you in your search, I'll reach out. 

Best of luck.

Travis

 

Comentario

Travis, 

thanks for the welcoming reply. 

Despite my current lack of advancement on the Aguayo line, it was been a personally rewarding endeavor searching through old records and learning how to read/interpret them.  

 

thanks again,

Jerry Lopez

Spain and the American Revolution

Does anyone in the group have any ancestors that were involved in Spain's role of assisting during the American Revolution?

Comentarios

Comentario

While I don’t have a direct ancestor who participated in the American Revolution, in a post from an earlier NR thread, a member revealed that the grandson of one of my ancestors (Bartolome Delgado, of Sierra de Pinos, Zacatecas) did participate. The link to the post can be found here (and includes a link to the poster’s source): https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/comment/30195#comment-30195

His entry says: Juan José Delgado. MPR:G, on 26 Nov 1775, widower of Josefa Leonarda Juarez and son of Juan Manuel Delgado of Sierra de Pinos and Matiana Contreras, married Ma Margarita Sanchez, daughter of Juan Bautista Sanchez and Juana Ma Diez. They [bur?] in in 1781.

That marriage took place in Nueva Ciudad Guerrero, Tamaulipas, just south of Laredo, TX. It doesn’t give any specifics of how he was involved, but the source given does give a list of Spaniards & New Spaniards who fought in the Revolution that can perhaps be helpful to you.

Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo

Lázaro Martín del Campo - New Information

As many of us have come to realize, the traditional genealogy connecting Lázaro Martín del Campo to Revilla del Campo is likely incorrect. 

Emerging evidence suggests that Bartolomé Martín del Campo and Lázaro Martín del Campo are two distinct individuals with no proven relation. While it was previously claimed that Lázaro was the same Bartolomé baptized in Revilla del Campo in 1605, the chronology is inconsistent. 

As Alfonso Martín del Campo Loza noted in his book "Memoria Documental y Gráfica de mi Apellido Martin del Campo", Lázaro was already established in Teocaltiche by 1618 and was a widower of Isabel Sánchez de Lara by 1623. A child baptized in 1605 could not have been a widower in 1623 with an established presence in Nueva Galicia by 1618. 

Recent findings point toward Herencia as the true origin: 

1) 1608 Record: I previously shared a 1608 record from Herencia showing a Lázaro Martín del Campo and his wife, María Díaz, acting as godparents: https://www.familysearch.org/ark

Comentarios

Sobre Los Rodriguez de Nochistlan

Que tal Amigos,

Comentarios

Comentario

Estimada Veronica,

La familia de mi madre esta muy vinculada con las familias del Valle de Huejucar. Mi cuarto bisabuelo se llamaba D. Marcos de Velasco, este nacio el 21 de febrero de 1847 en el rancho Las Canoas que partencia a dicha familia. Aqui me entra una de varias ramas de los Rodriguez de Frias. Tal Marcos era hijo de Bruna Rodriguez de Frias, esta de Basilio Rodriguez de Frias, este de Pablo Florentino Rodriguez de Frias y este de Santiago Rodriguez de Frias y la madre se llamaba Maria Cristina Macias Valades y Jimenez Perez de Contreras. Aun no he logrado identificar los padres mas deberian nacer alreadores de 1725 tal vez en Nochistlan o Teocaltiche. Se que tuvieron unos hijos bautizados en Santa Maria de los Lagos.

Tal vez alguna persona tiene dato adicional.

Un saludo,
Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino

Comentario

Hello Daniel

Our family is descended from the brother of your ancestor, Pablo Florentino Rodríguez: José Ylario Rodríguez, who married Guadalupe Carrasco. 

I didn't realize they are part of the Rodriguez de Frias family. 

Since your last post on the subject, have you been able to find the parents of Santiago Rodríguez and María Cristina Macías-Balades?

Santiago Rodrígues b. bef 1731 m. bef 1747 María Cristina Macías-Balades b. bef 1733.

  1. Joseph Ylario Rodrígues (1748-1801) m. 1781 Guadalupe Carrasco
  2. Pablo Florentino Rodrígues b. 1750
  3. Joseph Vicente Rodrígues b. abt. 1755 m. 1781 María Ysabel Gonzáles
  4. José María Rodrígues b. abt 1757
  5. José Victor Rodrígues b. abt 1764
  6. Ygnacio Rodrígues b. abt 1766 m. 1793 Paula Fraustra
  7. Pedro Rodrígues b. bef 1768 d. 1786

I believe María Rodríguez of Calvillo, who married Pedro Ortiz circa 1750s, may be related to the family.

Thanks!

Travis

Travis

Comentario

Hello Daniel,

We share a connection through José Santiago Rodríguez (????-1769) and his wife, María Cristina Macías-Valadés of San Nicolás and of Barranca, both located in Calvillo, Aguascalientes.

I recently found the nonindexed burial record for José Santiago Rodríguez at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SJ9-JKC 

In it, his place of birth is given as Zacatecas and parents are named Juan Rodrígues and María Josepha de la Cruz.

So far I've been unable to find more - despite considerable effort to expand upon this new information - but it's a start.

Best,

Travis

Comentario

Veronica,

Yo tengo el libro de José Luis Vasquez y Rodriguez de Frias. Buscare los nombres en el indice.

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "verodamian@hotmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sobre Los Rodriguez de Nochistlan

Que tal Amigos,

Es un mundo de informacion la que hay relacionada al apellido Rodriguez en Nochistlan, sin embargo yo estoy buscando a una familia en especifico y aunque el libro de Nochistlan seguramente esta muy completo, nose si me sirva para mi busqueda especifica. Les cuento esperando su consejo...

En 1759 vivia la familia (aparentemente española), compuesta por EUGENIO RODRIGUEZ Y MARCELINA GERTRUDIS CALVILLO, vivian en El Salitre, rancho cercano a Calvillo (antes llamado Valle de Huejucar), ellos tuvieron por lo menos los siguientes hijos:
Maria Casilda, Joseph Dionisio, Albina Gertrudis (casada con Juan Pablo Teliz en Yahualica), Joseph Vitorino, Joseph Maria y Maria Gertrudis.

EUGENIO RODRIGUEZ esta relacionado con los siguientes nombres que pueden ser sus hermanos, pues ellos fueron padrinos de sus hijos:

Ignacio Rodriguez y Gregoria de Jesus Puente
Juan Antonio Rodriguez y Juana Gertrudis Martinez
Pedro Rodriguez y Phelipa  Ramirez

Gracias a una dispensa matrimonial de su hija Albina, dice que vienen de Nochistlan y que ahí se llevarían a cabo las amonestaciones.
Esto me lleva a Nochistlan, ¿alguno de Ustedes tiene alguna relacion con estos nombres? ¿han visto algo en el libro de Nochistlan que me convenga adquirirlo?

Como siempre quedo de Ustedes, como su amiga,
Veronica Rodriguez

Comentario

Veronica,

Creo  que el Eugenio Rodriguez en el libro de Genealogia de Nochistlan no es el mismo que tu buscas. En la pagina 135 esta lo siguiente acerca de Eugenio Rodriguez.

1) Eugenio Rodriguez de Frias. El 12 de Diciembre de 1728 en Mexticacan fue bautizado Eugenio Rodriguez siendo padrinos Diego Rodriguez e Ysabel de Sepulveda sus abuelos paternos. El 2 de Mayo de 1751 en Nochistlan, casò Eugenio Rodriguez de Frias, hijo de Nicolàs Rodriguez de Frias y Melchora de Lomelin, difunta, originario y vezino de La Labor de Sn Joseph de los Lomelines de Valle de Mezticacan: con Geronima Ponce, de Ypalco, española, hija de Diego Ponce, difunto y Josepha de Xauregui, siendo padrinos Jose Yñiguez, español, vezino del Rio de Hipolito. De este matrimonio se han documentado los siguientes vastagos: (No los anote aqui porque no coniciden con los tuyos)

Ningunos de los hijos son los que tu mencionas como hijos ni son del Salitre y todos son Rodriguez de Frias.

________________________________
From: "verodamian@hotmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 4:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Genial Alicia, mil gracias!

Genial Alicia, mil gracias!

Comentario

Bien lo dices, no son los mismos. Como sucedían en esos tiempos, pudo hasta no estar registrado en Nochistlan y solo haber vivido ahí un tiempo. En fín seguiremos buscando.
Te agradezco profundamente que te hayas tomado el tiempo de buscarlos en el libro.

Todo lo mejor!

Verónica Rodríguez

Magdalena Gonzalez (Nicolas de Sandoval) and Magdalena de la Besares

Comentarios

Comentario

I don’t have them as children of Francisco Gonzalez Martinez cc Magdalena de Lavezares, but if either of them is, it’d be Magdalena Gonzalez cc Nicolas Sandoval, because from the kinship given in the dispensa of Lorenzo Mexia cc Magdalena Santillan, Magdalena de Lavezares cc Geronimo Sandoval was their granddaughter. The dispensa has the betrothed at 4o con 4o (and 4o con 3o in another line), but doesn’t explain the relationship, but from other records, the probable kinship is this:

Bernardino de Isla-1- ? ? ? ?
Juan de Isla-2-Magdalena Lavezares (cc Geronimo Sandoval)
Mariana de Isla-3-Cristobal Sandoval
Lorenzo Mexia-4-Magdalena Santillan

Using the process of elimination, Magdalena’s parents would have to be either Ynes Gonzalez cc Juan Gonz Hidalgo, or Andrea Lavezares cc Juan de la Cruz Martin Bermejo (Diego Gonzalez had a daughter named Magdalena, but she married Antonio Tovar Legazpi, and Juana Gonzalez cc Marcos Gonzalez had no children).

Dispensa, Lorenzo Mexia cc Magdalena Santillan: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6RSJ-1M?i=245&wc=3J4W-…
 

Saludos!

Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

In the book Genealogia de Nochistlan… by Jose Luis… it has both Magdalena de la Besares (Jeronimo de Sandoval) and Magdalena Gonzalez (Nicolas de Sandoval) as children of Francisco Gonzalez Martinez and Magdalena de la Besares. I may have missed where in the book it references it, but where is the information that links them as children and not grandchildren of them?

Diego Padilla Davila

I found this document: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDL-XHJM?i=71&cat=198356

 

I dont know much about this family but it may help someone. It mentions Diego Padilla Davila son of Lorenzo Padilla Davila and Isabel Castro Mesa

Also mentions Diego's uncle Francisco Reynoso and aunt Alfonsa/Aldonza Hijar

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola.

En la plataforma Geneanet en la genealogía aportada por Javier Sánchiz, se encuentra la siguiente información:

Primera Generación

Hernando Padilla Dávila (1494) casado con Leonor de Machicao

Segunda generación

Lorenzo Padilla Dávila Machicao (1530) casado con Mariana Temiño de Velasco

Tercera Generación

Diego Padilla Dávila Temiño de Velasco (1560) casado con Ana Mota Vera

Cuarta Generación

Lorenzo Padilla Dávila Mota (1609) casado en primeras nupcias con Catalina Híjar Mesa

Quinta Generación

Diego Padilla Dávila Híjar casado con Lucía Flores de la Torre

 

Aparece un segundo matrimonio, pero no con Inés de Castro y Mesa, es probable que Catalina si sea la madre de Diego, pero que aparezca como madre otra mujer (Inés) que pudo ser su madrastra y a la vez su tía.

Antiguamente existía la costumbre, los viudos con bebés se casaban con una hermana o parienta de la mujer fallecida para que les ayudara a criar el niño.  Tanto Catalina como Inés comparten el apellido Mesa. También es probable que Lorenzo se haya casado tres veces o más.

Saludos

Marcelina

 

Comentario

I descend from Diego Padilla Davila son of Lorenzo Padilla Davila and Isabel Castro Mesa through my maternal grandmother, Maria del Carmen Perez Ramirez, daughter of Prospero Perez and Juana Ramirez .

This Diego is not a common ancestor of people that post here in nuestrosranchos.org.   But this Diego left many descendants in Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco and its companion town, Pegueros, Jalisco (aka Pegueros California).

Rick A. Ricci

Household of Antonio de Aguirre and the Gomez/de Anda family

UPDATED:

[I deleted most of my original comment. Additional information is now available that makes my original theory untenable.]

Juana Gómez, Joachin Gómez, Ynes Gómez and Gaspar Gómez are all listed in the 1669 Padrón de Santa María de los Lagos as part of the household of Antonio de Aguirre and his wife, Isabel Gómez AKA Ortiz (daughter of Pedro Gómez de Portugal and Isabel Ortiz de Anda):

estancia o casa de Antonio deaguirre
Ysavel Gomez Sumuger - ++
Juana gomez Soltera - ++
Pedro martin casado con - ++
Ynes gomez - ++
Joachin gomez - ++
gaspar gomez - ++
Magdalena Gutierres sumuger - ++

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9K8-KTXV

My family is descended from three of the four (Juana, Gaspar and Joachin), so the question of their identity is important to us. 

I originally proposed some or all of them were Isabel's children by a previous relationship. I was wrong. Newly discovered information now verifies the relationships between Juana, Joachin and Gaspar Gómez, as well as sets

Bernardina Mendoza duda con los Duques de Alba

Hola a todos.

He encontrado encontrado en la pagina de
http://www.geni.com/people/Juan-Pantoja-De-Mendoza/6000000008718635886
que Bernardina Mendoza, esposa de Gonzalo Nuñez de Sotomayor,

Comentarios

Comentario

1)- Rollo “Hrolfr” “Rolf” “Rollon” “Rollo the Viking” “Rollo the Walker” “Rollo Normandy” nació in 860 ad y murio entre 928 ad y 933 ad. Rollo es uno de los más importantes Vikingos en historia. Rolls es antepasado de muchas casas reales en Europa. Rollo y Poppa procreáron a Guillaume “William Longsword.” 2)- Guillaume, “William Longsword”, (Guillaume Longue-Épée en frances) Lord of the Normans. Guillaume nacio en 893, fue asasinado 17/December/942. El controlo Normandía desde 927 hasta su muerte. Guilluame y Sprota procreán a Richard I “the Fearless”. 3)- Richard I “the Fearless”, Duke of Normandy , Richard I y su padre crecieron los terrenos de Normandy. Richard I y Gunnora procrearon Richard II “The Good” 4)- Richard II “The Good”, Duke of Normandy, nacio 23/August/963 y murió 28 August 1026. Richard II procreáro a Robert I. 5)- Robert I “the Magnificent”, Duke of Normandy Robert I procrearo a Guillermo I. 6)- Guillermo I, El Conquistador, nació en 1028, reinó en Inglaterra desde el 1066 hasta el 1087, sepultado en Caen, Francia. Guillermo I, casó con Matilde de Flandes, hija de Balduino V, Conde de Flandes y procrearon nueve hijos, uno de ellos: Enrique I. 7)- Enrique I, nació en 1070 y murio 1035, sucedió su hermano como rey. (Su hermano murió en 1100 de un accidental y cuestionable flechazo en una cacería.) Enrique fue rey hasta 1035. Enrique I se casó el 6 de agosto de 1100, en Westminster, con Edith Matilde, princesa escocesa, Desciende de King Alfred the Great, nacida en el 1080, en Dunfermline. Hija de Malcolm III Canmore, rey de Escocia y Santa Margarita. Casi no dejaron a Edith Matilde casarse. Se convocó a un concilio especial de la iglesia para asegurarse de que Edith Matilde no había hecho votos como monja. Su testimonio enfático logró convencerlos que ella no había hecho votos como monja. Procrearon dos hijos, El Príncipe Guillermo y Matilde de Inglaterra. Sin embargo, la corona pasó a un primo, otro descendiente colateral de Guillermo, El Conquistador, quien la retuvo por 19 años. 8)- Matilde de Inglaterra, la hija de Enrique I, nacida e en 1102, Londres, casó en segundas nupcias el 22/May/1127, con Godofredo V Plantagenet (1113-1151), Conde de Anjou. Procrearon tres hijos, uno de los cuales, se convertiría en Henry II, retomando de nuevo la línea sucesoral del trono de Inglaterra. Este sobresaliente monarca reinó desde 1154 hasta 1189. 9)- Henry II Plantagenet, King of England,(1133-1189), casó el 18/May/1152, con Eleanor of Aquitaine, hija de Guillermo X, Duque de Aquitania. Los hijos de esta pareja se mezclaron con todas las casas reales europeas de la época. Procrearon siete hijos, siendo uno de ellos Leonor de Plantagenet. 10)- Leonor de Plantagenet (1156-1214), la hija del Monarca inglés Enrique II, casó en 1177, en Burgos, España, con Alfonso VIII, Rey de Castilla (1155-1214). Alfonso VIII es hijo de Sancho III, Rey de Castilla y Blanca de Navarra. Procrearon seis hijos, entre ellos a Berenguela, Infanta de Castilla. 11)- Berenguela, Infanta de Castilla (1180-1246), casó en Dec/1197, en Valladolid, con Alfonso IX, Rey de León (1171-1230). Procrearon a Fernando III, (San Fernando) 12)- Fernando III, Rey de Castilla y León “San Fernando” (1201-1252), casó el 30/Nov/1219, en Burgos, Francia, con Beatriz (Elizabeth Von Hohenstaufen) de Suabia, quien a su vez era hija de Felipe de Suabia. Este monarca unificó para siempre Castilla y León. Además jugó un papel preponderante en la reconquista de España en manos de los moros. Procrearon tres hijos, entre ellos, quien mantendría la corona, Alfonso X, más conocido como Alfonso, El Sabio. 13)- Alfonso X, (El Sabio) nació el 23/Nov/1221, en Toledo y falleció en 1284, en Sevilla, España. Tuvo varios matrimonios, llevándose a cabo uno de ellos el 26 de noviembre de 1248, con Violante de Aragón, hija de Jaime I de Aragón y de Violante de Hungría, nació en 1236, en Zaragoza y falleció en 1301, en Roscesvalles, Navarra, España. Procrearon once hijos, siendo uno de estos Fernando de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla. 14)- Fernando de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla, nació el 23/Oct/1255, en Valladolid y falleció el 25/July/ 1275, en Ciudad Real. Casó el 30/Nov/1269, en Burgos, con Blanca Capeto de Francia (1252-1320), quien era hija del rey de Francia Luis IX. Tuvieron dos hijos, siendo uno de ellos Alfonso de la Cerda Infante de Castilla. 15)- Alfonso de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla (1270-1334), casó con Mahalda Brienne-EU y procrearon a Luís de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla. 16)- Luís de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla, nació en 1291, Francia. Casó con Leonor de Guzmán en el 1306, en Sevilla. Luís de la Cerda, falleció el 5/July/1348, en La Motte-Sur-Rhone, Francia. Procrearon a Juan de la Cerda. 17)- Juan de la Cerda(1327-1357), nació en Sevilla. Juan de la Cerda y Sol Martínez procrearon a Martín González de la Cerda. En el testamento de Leonor Guzman ella deja un dinero para Sol Martinez y escribe que ella esta embarazada por su hijo Juan de la Cerda. 18)- Martín González de la Cerda, casó en el 1366, con Violante Alvarez Pereyra, hija ilegítima de Alvaro Gonçalves Pereira, Obispo de Braga. Violante es hermana de Nuñez Alvarez Pereira, más conocido somo “San Nuño de Santa Maria” y como “el Protector de Portugal.” Martin y Violante procrearon a Mahalda de la Cerda. 19)- Mahalda de la Cerda, nació en ca. 1370, casó con Fernán Gutiérrez de Valverde y procrearon a María Gutiérrez de Valverde de la Cerda. 20)- María Gutiérrez de Valverde de la Cerda, murió 1464, casó con Gonzalo Porcallo Morán y procrearon a María Moran de la Cerda. 21)- Maria Moran de la Cerda, casó con Lorenzo Ulloa, Señor de Malgarrida, quien otorgó testamento y codicilo el 2/feb/1467. Lorenzo es hijo de Fernán Pérez de Ulloa Señor de Malgarrida y Gracia de Carvajal, vecinos de Cáceres, Fernán dio poder para testar a sus hijos el 11/Dec/1450. Lorenzo y Maria procrearon a Leonor de la Cerda. 22)- Leonor de la Cerda, casó con Balthazar Mendoza, hijo de Juan Pantoja y Elvira Alvarez de Mendoza. (Elvira es hija de Alfonso Duran Mendoza y Aldonza Vasquez de Sandoval. Filiación que consta en la carta de dote otorgada a favor de Juan Pantoja, el 3/Aug/1431). Rick A. Ricci Book: Mygenes2000

Comentario

Bernardina Mendoza did not descend from the Juan Pantoja that we have been tracking in this thread. Bernadina’s parents and ancestry can be found at

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24761

The information that was gathered in this original thread was not in vain as it led to understanding the vast and complicated Pantoja ancestry.

Thanks to Erik Andres Reynoso For providing valuable genealogical information that clarified the identities of her parents and grandparents.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Otro dato incorrecto es el de Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor que según se dice nació en 1531 en Guadalajara y esto no puede ser ya que la primera fundación de Guadalajara (en Nochistlan) fue el 5 de enero de 1532 y duro en ese lugar hasta el 8 de agosto de 1533

Comentario

Hola a todos:

Estoy de acuerdo en lo que dice nuestro amigo Carlos Peredo, es improbable la conexión que se ha hecho de Bernardina de Mendoza con los Duques de Alba, al menos la proporcionaba en algunos sitios de Internet.

Cometí el error hace tiempo de confiar en lo establecido en los sitios de Internet pensando en que no había razón por la cual inventar parentescos o fechas pero con la experiencia te das cuenta que todo debes tener documentado para que goce de validez y es ahí cuando empiezas a dudar de información sin fuente alguna y después por mero análisis como el que ha hecho Carlos Peredo con las fechas de nacimiento de sus supuestos progenitores te das cuenta que los datos en la web son falsos.
También por mi parte he logrado desmentir otras supuestas líneas gracias una investigación rigurosa y en otros casos los nombres son correctos pero a propósito suelen cambiar las fechas como un número en un año por ejemplo: 1681 a 1687. Yo creo que en estos casos, es preferible que se abstengan de compartir información falsa más para aquellos genealogistas que apenas van agarrando experiencia.

Al igual que ustedes espero que se pueda pronto conocer la verdadera filiación de Bernardina de Mendoza, una antepasada que compartimos muchos de nosotros y cuyo linaje lleno de dudas parece muy interesante.

Enrique Agraz

Comentario

Enrique, yo seguí la misma línea de los Señores de Mocejón sin revisar bien las fechas.

Vamos a analizar estos datos:

a) Juan de Pantoja tuvo el regimiento de Michoacán en 1538. Fuente: Archivo General de Indias, Audiencia de México.

b) A Juan de Pantoja se le hace hijo de Martín, Señor de Mocejón y de Inés de Mendoza. Su hija Catalina de Pantoja fue la que casó con Álvaro de las Cuevas. Fuente: Fundadores de Nueva Galicia. Guillermo Garmendia Leal.

c) Bernardina de Mendoza, viuda de Gonzalo Núñez falleció el 22 de Febrero de 1614, fue enterrada en San Agustín y testó ante el escribano Diego Rubio. Fueron sus albaceas Diego de Zúñiga y Baltasar de la Peña. Fuente: Partidas de Entierro del Primer Libro Mixto del Archivo del S. Metropolitano de la Ciudad de Guadalajara. Claudio Jiménez Vizcarra.

Ahí tenemos un rango de dos fechas en los que podemos ubicar a nuestros personajes, Bernardina falleció en 1614 y su abuelo Juan está en Michoacán en 1538.

La partida de entierro de Bernardina de Mendoza es de capital importancia para conocer mejor los enlaces de esta familia.
Como puedes ver, los albaceas de Bernardina de Mendoza fueron Baltasar de la Peña, esposo de Catalina de Mendoza y Pantoja "La Menor". El otro albacea fue Diego de Zúñiga esposo de Luisa de Mendoza. Es decir, Baltasar y Diego fueron yernos de Bernardina de Mendoza y de Gonzalo Núñez (de Sotomayor).

En la relación de méritos y servicios del Bachiller Marcos de la Peña y Mendoza de 1680, nieto de Bernardina, a ella se le llama "de Mendoza y Pantoja".

¿Hasta ahí vamos bien?

Tenemos lo siguiente:

I. Generación de nuestro interés: Juan de Pantoja debió de haber nacido aproximadamente entre 1500 y 1510 suponiendo que tenía 28 o 38 años cuando tuvo el Regimiento de Michoacán. Vamos a usar ese margen para nuestros cálculos.

II. Generación: Catalina de Pantoja "La Mayor", esposa de Álvaro de las Cuevas debió de haber nacido entre 1528 y 1538.

III. Generación: Bernardina de Mendoza y Pantoja debió de haber nacido entre 1548 y 1558, tenemos la fecha exacta de su fallecimiento: 1614, es decir, debió de haber fallecido de 66 o 56 años. ¿Suena lógico?

Me permito citar nuevamente a Carlos Peredo con el fin de seguir la línea también aquí: Como bien dice: Luis de Pantoja y de su sobrina Sancha de Silva quienes casaron en Toledo el 12 de Febrero de 1597. Luis como vemos debió de haber nacido hacia 1560 -tomando en cuenta que casó con su sobrina- y es el hipotético hermano de Juan de Pantoja quien calculamos nació hacia 1500.

De ser así, como ya comentaron Mario González, Randy McNeal, Carlos Peredo y Enrique de Agraz, Bernardina perteneció al linaje de los Pantoja pero NO era descendiente de Martín de Pantoja y de Inés de Toledo y Mendoza.

Ahora, está claro que Bernardina descendía también de los Mendoza pero por qué rama? Hasta ahora hemos obviado algo:

Álvaro de las Cuevas, esposo de Catalina de Pantoja "La Mayor". Debió de haber nacido alrededor de 1530.

¿Pudo haber sido hijo de Alonso de la Cueva, I Señor de Bedmar, fallecido en Nápoles en 1565 y de su esposa Juana Manrique de Mendoza?

El manuscrito "Noticias genealógicas de la casa de la Cueva, señores de Bedmar" menciona como hija de Alonso de la Cueva y Juana Manrique de Mendoza, entre otros a: Bernardina. Este nombre se repite nuevamente en Bernardina de la Cueva y Mendoza, hija de Luis de la Cueva y de Elvira de Mendoza pero este personaje debió de haber nacido ca. 1580.

La primera Bernardina de la Cueva y Mendoza es contemporánea a Álvaro de las Cuevas esposo de Catalina de Pantoja.

¿Es por Álvaro de las Cuevas por donde viene el linaje de los Mendoza? ¿Se llamó su hija Bernardina por su hermana/pariente Bernardina de las Cuevas Mendoza?

Por otro lado ¿Alguien tiene o ha visto el testamento de Bernardina de Mendoza que hizo ante el escribano de provincia Diego Rubio? Eso nos ayudaría a establecer mejor las filiaciones.

Saludos,

Erik Reynoso.

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Hola Erik, hola a todos

Creo que nos aproximamos a situar correctamente en el tiempo a Bernardina y su familia, de acuerdo a datos que expongo enseguida, coincido contigo Erik que Bernardina debió nacer por 1548 por lo siguiente:

Bernardina debió casar por 1570 (de unos 20 a 22 años) ya que su hija Catalina casó antes de 1600, digamos 1595 ya que la primer hija de ella y de Baltazar de la Peña que he localizado llamada María fue bautizada el 7-feb-1600 en Guadalajára, Mex., así que sí esta Catalina Mendoza Núñez Sotomayor casó por 1595, debió nacer por 1575.

Lo anterior es apoyado también por las fechas de nacimiento de los hijos de Luisa (la hermana de Catalina Mendoza Núñez Sotomayor) casada con diego de Zúñiga, ya que dicha boda se verificó el 25-oct-1603 en Guadalajára, Jal., por lo que Luisa debió nacer por 1583 y así sería unos 8 años menor que su hermana Catalina.

Un dato interesante lo es el que en la partida de bautizo de uno de sus hijos a Luisa se le nombra de Ulloa y Mendoza lo cual puede ser una buena pista.

El mencionado por Erik : Marcos de la Peña y Mendoza fue bautizado el 4-may-1610 en Guadalajára y fue longevo ya que Erik nos menciona que hizo relación de méritos en 1680 a los 70 años! de edad.

Con las fechas tentativas expuestas, mi aproximación cronológica de esta línea es la siguiente :

Gonzalo Pantoja Monroy nacido por 1445 y casado por 1475 con Elvira Portocarrero y Guzmán Señora de Mocejón, quienes fueron los padres de :

Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero décimo Señor de Mocejón nacido por 1480 y casado ca 1510 con Juana de Melo y Toledo;

y Juan Pantoja Portocarrero (¿El corregidor de Michoacan?) nacido por 1485 que casaría por 1510 con María de la Peña, de quienes nacería :

Catalina Pantoja y de la Peña por 1520 la cual casó por 1540 con Álvaro de la Cueva, padres finalmente de Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza que entonces habría nacido por 1545 y casaría por 1565 con Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor.

Parece lógico ?

De donde sale lo Ulloa ?

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Solo como sugerencia quisiera mencionar como posible progenitor de Alvaro de la Cueva al Doctor Juan de la Cueva y Mendoza genarca de los Fernández de la Cueva de Tecolotlán según información que nos fue compartida hace algunas semanas aquí en nuestros ranchos.

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

El node en que se nos compartió la información sobre los Cueva de Tecolotlán es :

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/22112

Por otra parte y siguiendo en el enigma de Juan de Pantoja es posible que estemos hablando de dos muy diferentes.

Resulta que el Corregidor de Michoacan llamado así llegó -según declaró él mismo- a la Nueva España antes de la conquista acompañando a Hernán Cortés:

" ..que es vecino de Mechuacán , natural de Medellín e hijo legítimo de Pedro Pantoja y Catalina Rodríguez; y que ha veintiseis años que pasó a esta Nueva España, que fue antes que esta cibdad se ganase....fue con Cristóba Dolid a la conquista de Michuacán.....que ha trece años que es casado y tiene seis hijas y dos hijos y que se hayó en la última pacificación de la Nueva Galicia, y tiene en encomienda el pueblo de La Guacana y tiene muy poca gente..." Andariegos y Pobladores.

Sobre el anterior , Dorantes de Carranza dice que su hija María casó con Francisco Madaleno.

Por la declaración de este Juan, podemos decir que llegó por 1520 y que casó por 1533 por lo que sí es contemporaeno del Juan de que veníamos hablando (o es el mismo). De este encomendero hay más información, por ejemplo, en 1524 en un documento Hernán Cortés refiere haber recibido una carta de Juan Pantoja (su compañero de conquistas), también por ahí encontré que murió en 1565 ya que en ese año su hijo Pedro Pantoja heredó la encomienda, misma que pasó en 1600 a su nieto también llamado Juan Pantoja.

Entonces, se trata de homónimos o es el mismo ?

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Encontré la partida del fallecimiento de una hermana de Bernardina Pantoja Mendoza; se trata de Ana DE ULLOA !!! que murió el 26-jun-1630 en donde se declara que fue hija de Álvaro de las Cuevas y de Catalina Pantoja y que dejó de albacea a Baltazar de la Peña (el yerno de Bernardina).

Entonces, Álvaro de las Cuevas sería un Ulloa? o viene por los Pantoja ?

Comentario

Hello Carlos

I believe that the line that I have descending from Gonzalo Pantoja is the correct one. It is through Gonzalo's maternal grandmother that we have Ulloa I believe that I have discovered why Garmandi Leal mixed up his line with the one that descends from the duque de Alba. There are three other connections which make Gonzalo Pantojas descendents Cousins, 2nd and 3rd cousins to to the Alvarez de Toledo family. He must have come across documents stating that they were closely related and went to the one relationship that does not I belong as our direct ancestors.

Thanks again for your work in trying to figure out this mess. I have more on Gonzalo Pantoja's ancestors and the details as to how they are closely related to the Alvarez de Toledo family but will hold off on providing this info since we need to focus on making a solid connection with each link from Catalina Pantoja to Gonzalo Pantoja.
There is a Pantoja page on the internet that has some good info on the Pantoja line but has some major mistakes as to the Melo line. I understand why they made their mistake because I made the same mistake at first when I read a certain document. They must have read that same document that I stumbled on. It took me a while to make sense of it and write down the correct line. I later corroborated the correct line with other documents.
R A Ricci

Comentario

Bernardina Mendoza.and Ana Ulloa may descend from Gonzalo Pantoja jr and Juana Merlo Ulloa

More research is needed to verify Juan Pantojas parents. We do not know if he is the same Juan that lists Pedro as his father.

There were many Juan, Pedro, and Gonzalo Pantojas in Mexico during the 16th century.

I found a Captain Juan Pantoja and Lord of Ixtlahuaca that accompanied Narvaez on his 1st expedition to Mexico. This Captain Juan Pantoja may be the same Captain that was killed by Vasco Porcalles' brother, surnamed Sotomayor, during another expedition.

Another Juan Pantoja went to Honduras and stayed there.

There is another named Juan de la Cueva Pantoja

There is a Gonzalo Pantoja that is the father of Jeronimo Pantoja Zuniga (aka Geronimo Zuniga)

There is a Pedro Pantoja that married into the Ovando family

Another Pantoja married into the Ribera family

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

I have been able to confirm the connection between the Ulloa family and the Pantoja family. I have found wills that show their correct lines. . Many experienced genealogists have posted articles with clear mistakes in their lineage Diego Merlo was an uncle and not an ancestor. Diego is the son of Juan Merlo el bravo. Some genealogists have erroneously stated that this Juan is the son. Constanza is the wife of Diego and not Juan. Again some make the mistake of making constanza the wife of Juan. Constanza was known under different last names but they aren't mistakes and she is the same person as she sometimes used her maternal grandmothers last name and sometimes she used her fathers surname. Diego did have two sons named Juan with one named after his paternal grandfather and another surnamed after a maternal grandfather which added to the confusion but Diego leaves a will that that clearly indicates who the different Juan's are. Diego, his father Juan, and his maternal grandfather are listed in royal court documents as they were involved with the royal court. Guiomar Ulloa and Juan Merlo are ancestors to our gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero.
It is often difficult to confirm descents from antiquity as most lineage have some speculation but at least one line clearly descends from Recared 1 King of the Visigoths

R A Ricci

Comentario

I think the Merlo-Ulloa family is interesting but not related to our Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Ulloa Pantoja who married our Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor, the reasons are :

The Merlo Ulloa relationship with the Pantojas of Mocejón starts around 1510 when Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero marries Juana de Merlo Ulloa y Toledo.....

At this same time Juan Pantoja Rodríguez the conqueror of Colima was marriying his first wife NN, with whom he had a son by the name of Pedro Pantoja born in Spain around 1520 who inherited la encomienda de la Huacana from his father on 1565.

It´s clear that this line of Pantojas is not related then to the Merlo-Ulloa line

Now the line of our Bernardina comes from the same Juan Pantoja Rodríguez or another one by the same name who lived around the same time and therefore was not the son of Gonzalo Pantoja and Juana Merlo.

This Juan Pantoja was born well before 1510 when Gonzalo Pantoja married Juana Merlo, because he marries María de la Peña around 1515-1520 ! so he was born at least around 1495-1497.

We know that he married María de la Peña between 1515 and 1520 because Catalina, their daughter was born around 1520 and married Álvaro Alonso de la Cueva very close to 1540. The year 1540 is very important because that´s the likely year of birth of OUR BERNARDINA HURTADO DE MENDOZA ULLOA PANTOJA.

Bernardina must have been born in or close to 1540 because she married IN OR CLOSE TO 1560 to Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor.

We can be sure about that because her first documented daughter : Juana Núñez de Sotomayor y Mendoza who married IN OR CLOSE TO 1580 to Diego de Ochoa Garibay !

And we know that that marriage was ON OR CLOSE TO 1580 because their first documented son : Pedro Núñez de Sotomayor Ochoa y Mendoza married on August 23rd 1603 in Guadalajara. So we can asume that this Pedro Núñez was born between 1581-1585.

In conclusion : we find ONE OR TWO Juan Pantojas in full adulthood when his supposed parents were just getting married, so NONE of this Juanes is related to Gonzalo Pantoja and Juana Merlo Ulloa.

My last guess is that in this case there´s just one Juan Pantoja that married twice:

I think he is the same conqueror of Colima and encomendero of Huacana that first married around 1510 to NN with whom he had the line of the encomenderos of Huacana that followed in his son Pedro who took thwe encomienda on 1565; then he was followed by his son Juan who inherited Huacana on 1600 and finally we find a son of this Juan, named Pedro Pantoja Velasco who was the encomendero on 1630.

I think The encomendero of Huacana, already a widow before coming to America, married also in Spain to María de la Peña around 1515 AND THEY WERE THE GRANDPARENTS of our Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Ulloa Pantoja

Comentario

If the the timeline that you are you are using is correct then I agree with your reasoning. However, I disagree with your dates on Gonzalo Pantoja And Juana Merlo Ulloa. I believe that Gonzalo Pantoja and Juana Merlo Ulloa married at least two decades earlier, most likely twenty-five to thirty years earlier than you are proposing. The dates showing juana as marrying at a later date are supposing that she descended from the toledo which is in fact an error that genealogists made many years later when they were fighting for an inheritance in court. Her stepmother was a Toledo not her. Even some court documents wrongly refer to he rdescending from the Toledo in the inheritance fight. Her father, brother and herself are clearly from an earlier age than the false lines state. Her maternal grandfather and uncle left wills that show that they were from an earlier age. they had many connections with the royal court which is why they kept these wills.
Juana Merlo Ulloa had half siblings and first cousins that were surnamed toledo and her step mother has been misidentified at times as being her mother but she did not descend from the Toledo family.
For the correct timeline you need to know that she is does not descend from Diego Merlo Ulloa.

When we look at the year Giuomar Ulloa's stepmother passed away in 1442, then take six years away for the Guiomars five half siblings to be born, and add another year for Giomars younger full sister, we see that Juana's mother Giuomar was born at the latest in 1434 and most likely a few years before that so let's deduce circa 1430. If she had Juana when she was thirty then Juana Merlo Ulloa was born in 1460. If she married at twenty then she married in 1480. This is much earlier than 1510 that you state. In 1510 she would be around fifty years old.
Rick A Ricci

Comentario

To Carlos Peredo

I believe that you are correct in your analysis of the date ranges for all the people you addressed in this post except for Juana Merlo Ulloa and her husband

Even though I calculated a birthdate for her of 1460, this date is closer to the latest that she was born. An strong argument can be made that her birth date is in the 1450's.. This would make her closer to 60 in 1510. This age calculation allows for at the very least one added generation, maybe even two. The calculations are based on known data regarding Juana's mother, Giuomar Ulloa, when Giuomars stepmother conceived her children and when she passed away.
Rick A Ricci

Comentario

Hello Rick

I´m really puzzled wilth this Juana Merlo and I´m guessing that there may be two different Juana Merlos in different time ranges because from what I´ve seen Juan de Merlo " El Bravo" married for his third time with Guiomar de Ulloa around 1430 and
https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=HFO3uEVyLmkC&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq…
they were the parents of Diego de Ulloa born ca 1430 and Juana de Merlo Ulloa but......she must have been born around 1460 because I´ve found that she and her husband Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero founded the Mayorazgo of Benacazón on 1537 so I´m supposing that she was born around 1460, married around 1480 and when she was about 77 years old founded the said Mayorazgo!

So could she be the sister of Diego de Merlo ? sounds unlkely, because we know that Diego was Alcayde of Alcalá on 1454 so he must have been born at least on 1430 to be charged with such responsibility.
https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=LftBmCe0z54C&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq…

Now, we know that Diego de Merlo was Alcayde of Alcalá after his fathers death, so Juan de Merlo El Bravo died on or before 1454, how could he be the father of Juana de Ulloa if she was born around 1460?

But there´s even more :

I have found that Gonzalo Pantoja gave "carta de Arras" to marry Juana de Merlo on 1513 !, here is the link :
http://www.realacademiatoledo.es/files/anales/0028/05.pdf
And in the same documents it appears that the wedding was completed on 1514, so this Juana de Merlo Ulloa must have been born more likely around 1490-1496.

Now, what I think is that Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero was already around 53 years old when he married a young Juana de Merlo, because I believe he was born around 1460, and that he was the brother of Pedro Pantoja (born around 1465) who married Catalina Rodríguez around 1490, this last couple were the parents of Juan Pantoja Rodríguez, born around 1490 on Medellín Extremadura, España.Who was the Encomendero of Huacana on 1538 and corregidor of Michoacan.

About This last Juan Pantoja we know the names of som of his children :

Cristóbal, Fray Francisco, María and Pedro who inherited the encomienda.

My guess, based on the timeframe is that he was also the father of OUR Catalina Pantoja de la Peña.

I´ve corrected the timeline of this line and now I can suggest that Catalina Pantoja de la Peña was born very close to 1515 because she got married on or close to 1532 with Álvaro Alonso de la Cueva Mendoza, and they were the parents of :

Bernardina Husrtado de Mendoza Ulloa Pantoja who according to Guillermo Tovar de Teresa was born on 1533. This year mentioned by Don Guillermo fits well with the following:

Bernardina must have married to Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor around 1554 (when she was around 20 years old) because their first documented daughter , Juana married around 1575 to Diego de Ochoa Garibay, so I can safely suppose that she was born around 1555.

We know that Juana married Diego de Ochoa Garibay around 1575 because their known siblings married before or close to the year 1600, so all of them must have been born around the year 1580.

Those descendants were :

María who married Agustín de Villalobos Gómez López de Fuenllana around 1595 and then around 1605 with Diego Fernández de la Cueva Colio

Francisco de Ochoa Garibay who was the father of Inés de Garibay, and grandfather of Nicolás Guzmán Garibay who was baptized on sep-19th-1625 in Zamora, Mich. So we can guess, that Inés was bron around 1605, and therefore her father was born around 1580;

Juan Bautista de Ochoa Garibay who first married around 1599 to Isabel de Ábrego (one of their daughters, Magdalena was "madrina" on 1616, so she was at least 16 or 17 years old) and secondly around 1615 to Mencía de Castañeda;

Pedro Núñez de Sotomayor Ochoa who married on Aug-31-1603 to Ana Leonor Hurtado de Mendoza de la Vega, so Pedro was born also around 1580.´

Nicolás who married around 1605 to Mariana de la Cruz y Cárcamo (ancestors of Morelos)

And lastly, Francisca who was probably the youngest daughter of Diego de Ochoa Garibay y Juana Núñez de Sotomayor Mendoza Pantoja Ulloa:

Francisca was born around 1593 and married on nov-27-1613 to Juan de la Mora y Mendoza, and they are my ancestors

Comentario

Hello Carlos,
There were at least three Juanas . Our gonzalo Pantojas wife, has a maternal aunt Juana. The aunt was born after her sister Guiomar. Their father remarried soon after this first Juana was born and had more children with his second wife. The dates of the second marriage and children help date these people which is why I gave you a birthdate on our second Juana in 1450s.
I believe your analysis helps confirm that The birthdate that I gave you for this second Juana Merlo is 1450s not 1460. if her father dies like you say in 1454. Let's give her a birth date of 1450 So if Gonzalo is given a birth date approximating hers then I believe that it makes room for another generation where pedro is not his brother but their son. This would explain the Ulloa in the family line.
The third juana Merlo that you mention is most likely the cause for the confusion of the birth date on the second Juana Merlo, who was married to Gonzalo. Did Gonzalo marry two Juana Merlos ?
That information that you give of a carta de arras in 1513 to marry in 1514 would indicate another marriage either in celebration of already being married for many years, or to possibly a niece of his first wife with both having the same name. This information of a Juana Merlo marrying in 1514 does not change the fact that our Gonzalo was married to Juana Merlo Ulloa decades earlier and that they are the parents of children who were fighting over an inheritance.

Or is there another Couple with the same name as our Gonzalo Pantoja and Juana Merlo since there seems to be many Gonzalo, Pedro, and Juan Pantojas.

So our line would look like this:

Juan Merlo el Bravo and Guiomar Ulloa Yanez (born about 1430)
Juana Merlo Ulloa (born about 1450 and Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero
Pedro Pantoja (born about 1468)and Catalina Rodriguez
juan Pantoja (born about 1490) and Maria de la Pena
Catalina Pantoja Pena Ulloa (born about 1515) and Alonso De la Cueva Mendoza
Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja Ulloa (born about 1533) and Gonzalo nunez de Sotomayor
Juana nunez de Sotomayor( born about 1555) and Diego Ochoa de Garibay
Francisca Ochoa Soto. (born about1593) and married on 27/Nov/1613 to Juan de la Mora y Mendoza

P.s. The founding of the mayorazgo has caused some confusion as I believe the date of its founding is not 1537 as many have written. I believe the date 1537 refers to when they passed this Mayorazgo to their son.

Rick A Ricci

Comentario

Hello Carlos
I took a look at one of the sources that you provided. The book confirms much of what I stated regarding the errors in some court documents. The book states, just like I did, that there is a clear error, they said "tiene un error evidente" and they go on to explain what I had explained in a previous post. The mistakes that were made were used by many genealogists to come up with the false genealogies and caused much confusion regarding the birth dates of the involved individuals. These mistakes are so prevalent that I began to think that maybe I was wrong and that I should go and start over all again with this branch since so many people follow these different lines. Now that you found a source that confirms my claims, I will not start all over again. Juan Merlo is the father of Guiomar Ulloa and Diego Merlo. They also have a sister named juana and multiple half siblings. This book also confirms what I said about diego and Constanza Carillo having two sons named juan, one named Juan Merlo and the other Juan Carillo. The book names a third son who became a monk.

The book also provides some interesting information that may have contributed to the mistakes made in the genealogies. There seems to be a second isabel Alvarez de toledo and she is married to a grandson of Diego Merlo Ulloa that is also named Diego Merlo so people may have confused with the Isabel Alvarez de toledo married to Juan Merlo.

Remember that the first isabel de toledo and Juana Merlo are mistakenly referred to as sisters in a document when they were wives to the same man.
I will continue to look at the sources you have provided and hope to find more gold nuggets that help our research.

The book claims as it's sources the same documents that i used to come up with my conclusions.

The other source you provided is riddled with mistakes as it provides the inaccurate information that we, the book and I, claim to be errors.
Thanks again for providing these sources,
Rick A Ricci

Comentario

Hello Carlos

Contributing to the mixed up lines that everyone has is the following information:

Juan Merlo el Bravo and Guiomar Ulloa Yanez (born about 1430)
Daughter
Juana Merlo Ulloa (born about 1450 and Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero

Juan Merlo also marries Isabel Alvarez de Toledo

Juan Merlo who is el bravo and Guiomar Ulloa Yanez are also the parents of

Diego Merlo Ulloa and he is married to Constanza Carillo and they are the parents of two Juan's:

Juan Merlo and Juan Carillo ( full brothers)

One of these Juan's is the father of

Diego Merlo who is married to another Isabel Alvarez Toledo

Who it seems have two daughters ,

One named Juana Merlo and another named Isabel Alvarez Toledo (named after her mother)

So we have three Juana's in the family, one Juana Ulloa and two Juana Merlos

And three isabel Alvarez de Toledo

And numerous Juan Merlos, including the set of brothers named Juan but with different surnames.

And at least two Diego Merlos

At least two Gonzalo Pantojas

Numerous Juan Pantojas

At least a couple of Pedro Pantojas

No wonder that there is a lot of confusion as to their identities.

Some of the documents seem to have errors when in fact they are just talking about someone else in the extended family that has a similar name.

The mistakes are made from not realizing that the documents at times refer to someone else with a similar name with other similar names clouding the picture since in some cases we are talking siblings, other times they are talking about wives to the same man and other times they are referring to a grandfather, uncle, spouse or sibling. Once when referring to half siblings it makes an error and states that they have the same mother, that is how Juana is mistakenly named as the daughter of her dads other wife when she is Guiomars daughter. Actually he had three wives but I have not discovered the name of the third wife who was his first wife.
It takes a lot of patience and documents from other sources to put the pieces of the puzzle together. The book is right in that even in the court documents they had trouble keeping everything straight so that is why they compiled so many documents to try to get it straight. People read the excerpts and create their own genealogies from what they think they are reading. after reading other documents and wills everything gets straightened out. The problem is that many people have not had access to the wills and other documents so they have made a mess of the family tree and timelines.

The lines that I have put together are the result of looking at many documents. The book corroborates my research, or better yet, since the book was written before I did my research, my work reinforces and validates the conclusions of the author of that book.

Rick A Ricci

Comentario

Hello Carlos

You wrote:
The Merlo Ulloa relationship with the Pantojas of Mocejón starts around 1510 when Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero marries Juana de Merlo Ulloa y Toledo.....

But Juana Merlo Ulloa and Juana Merlo Toledo are different people. The first Juana was Gonzalo Pantojas wife and a great aunt to Juana Merlo Toledo. If Gonzalo did marry a second Juana Merlo, it was most likely this great niece and that would explain the confusion and conflicting timelines. This may also explain the conflicting information regarding Juana Merlos parents.

The marriage to a Juana Merlo toledo could have occurred in 1514 just like you claim.

Our line of descent that you and I both share comes from Juana Merlo Ulloa.

If Gonzalo did remarry in 1514 then all documents after this must have contributed to the mistakes in the family tree as this second Juana Merlo (Juana Merlo Toledo) did descend from diego Merlo Ulloa (he was her grandfather and brother to Juana Merlo Ulloa)

If gonzalo Pantoja did not remarry then the confusion over Juana merlo Ulloa's surname comes from her half sibling taking his mothers surname, toledo (Alvarez Toledo).

Rick A Ricci

Comentario

Hello and thank you Carlos,

I continued researching using the resources you provided. The sources you provide confirm that Guiomar Ulloa was the third and last wife of Juan merlo, confirming my earlier research that she survived him. My earlier research identified her as a widow and favorite of the Queen. I became unsure of this info because the court document that erroneously implied that the second wife was the last wife. She had to be the last wife if she is the same Guiomar Ulloa that is the queens favorite.

I believe that the resources that you provided support the Pantoja Merlo family tree that I have presented in these posts.

One of the books is down the street from me at UCLA.

Thanks again,

Rick A Ricci

Comentario

There is conflicting information as to the name of Martim Alfonso de Merlos wife, the parents of Juan Merlo el Bravo. One of the sources that Carlos provided claims her name is Leonor Acuña and a couple of pages later claims that it is teresa Acuña. Leonor and Teresa Acuña are sisters. Leonor is identified as being married twice having to two other men in another other source.

Further research identifies Leonor as a very busy bride. It seems that she had multiple marriages, her husbands kept dying. According to Luis de Salazar y Castro, Leonor is the sister that was a wife of Martim Alfonso de Merlo, Sr de Valdenebro

Juan Merlo el bravo had a sister, Catalina de Merlo, that married into another very prominent family that had many business ties with the Spanish King, just like juan Merlo's father in law. All of their lives revolved around the King and or Queen.

Many Gonzalo Pantojas identified themselves as Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerrero. The first or earliest one was himself a son of a Gonzalo Pantoja. The first Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerrero was married to juana Merlo Ulloa (1)the sister of Diego merlo Ulloa. This was his third wife. His second wife was Isabel Toledo (1)
This diego Merlo Ulloa was a very famous man in Spain. He has two sons named juan but they had different surnames. The son named Juan Merlo and his wife, Isabel Toledo (2) had two daughters, juana merlo Ulloa Toledo and Isabel Toledo (3)
These two sisters are often confused with two of the first Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerrero's wives, Juana Merlo Ulloa (1)and Isabel Toledo (1) One of the tow sisters, Juana Merlo Ulloa Toledo (2) married a Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerrero. It is unclear whether this gonzlalo Pantoja Portocerrero could possibly be the same one married to her great aunt though I believe he is either a son or grandson.

So there is one Juana Ulloa, two Juana Merlo Ulloas, three Isabel Toledos (though one was known as Ines) and multiple Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerreros, three juans (two of these Juan's were Juan Merlo while the other Juan had his mother s surname but was a full brother to one of the Juan Merlos, the grandfather to these two Juan brothers, was the famous knight Juan Merlo el Bravo (the first Johnny Bravo).

I believe that Catalina Pantoja descends from the first Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerreo and the first Juana Merlo Ulloa. The book that Carlos Peredo provided supports this line and provides sources that I myself researched before seeing this book. The other source that Carlos provided is a compilation of court documents that were gathered together to try to make sense of all the family entanglements. This compilation has not cleared up the family tree as many genealogists take excerpts and construct faulty family trees.

There are two lines to antiquity, one through the Portecerrero line and another through the Ulloa line.
R A Ricci

Comentario

The last testament and will of Diego Merlo and other primary sources support the conclusions of my research on this family. The problem is that many genealogists in the 1600s and 1700s had already mixed up the members of this family and wrote incorrect genealogies in their books.

Juana Merlo is the daughter of Juan Merlo "el Bravo" and Guiomar Ulloa Yanez. She is not the same Juana Merlo that is the daughter of the Juan Merlo Toledo, son of Diego Merlo, Guiomars brother. This second Juan Merlo is married to an Alvarez Toledo, the same surname of his mother which adds to the confusion.

Juan Merlo El Bravo is one of the only, maybe the only foreign knight, acknowledged to win in tournaments in Germany during this time. Juan went to Germany and challenged the Germans stating he was the best. Then he proved it when they took him up on the challenge.

Juan Merlo el Bravo and Guiomar Ulloa Yanez (born about 1430)
Juana Merlo Ulloa (born about 1450 and Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero
Pedro Pantoja (born about 1468)and Catalina Rodriguez
juan Pantoja (born about 1490) and Maria de la Pena
Catalina Pantoja Pena Ulloa (born about 1515) and Alonso De la Cueva Mendoza
Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja Ulloa (born about 1533) and Gonzalo nunez de Sotomayor
Juana nunez de Sotomayor( born about 1555) and Diego Ochoa de Garibay
Francisca Ochoa Soto. (born about1593) and married on 27/Nov/1613 to Juan de la Mora y Mendoza

R.A. Ricci

Comentario

Bernardino hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja s ancestor, the famous knight, Juan Merlo, who descends mainly from. " Christiano Viejos" also descends from a third cousin of the Prophet Mohammed. This ancestor, besides being Mohammed's third cousin is the brother to the mother of one of Mohammed's wives.

Comentario

Hello Carlos

Great work finding juan Pantoja son of Pedro Pantoja and Catalina Rodriguez. I believe that we are on the right track and will solve this puzzle soon. We have made great progress in these few days. Fortunately, I found a couple of sources that should help us solve, or at least add a couple more pieces to this puzzle. Unfortunately, I won't be able to travel and get these books until after the school year ends in June so we have at least a month until I open up and see these prizes. I was able to see a line from one of these books and I can already tell you that this book will reveal some information. The bad news is that I can only see the second half of the sentence so I don't know all the info. Luckily I can tell from the second half of the sentence that it will provide us with some valuable information.

Many good genealogists have stumbled with the Merlo (Melo) /Suarez-Alvarez Toledo Ulloa line associated withe the Pantoja family. They screwed up because there are three wives and they have confused who is the son of which or only know of one wife. Because of the three wives, they have also mixed up son and father, mistakenly claiming that Diego is the father of whom I know to be Diego's father. juana is the sister of Diego Merlo and not the daughter like some claim. I have been able to clarify the ancestry of Juana Merlo for many generations. I can continue working on this line without having to travel far as the sources are close by to me.

Much of the confusion is caused be court records over a fight over the inheritance mistakenly names the stepmother( the widow) as the mother, genealogists and historians read the document and assumed they had it right. Guiomar Ulloa is the biological mother to Diego and Juana. The others are their half siblings.
R A Ricci

Comentario

Dear Mr. Ricci and other Members,

As far as whether Dr. Juan de la Cueva y Mendoza may have been an ancestor to Bernardina de Mendoza I simply don't know. I know from her from this thread.

The thread that mentions Dr. Juan de la Cueva-Mendoza y González is one I started on 28 Feb 2014 and I called it "Origen de Beltrán de la Cueva: Re-encontré la conexión a España!" Unfortunately I have only limited info on Dr. Juan de la Cueva-Mendoza y González, and what I have I found in Gabriel Agraz García de Alba's article "Origen y Desenvolvimiento de la Familia de la Cueva en Tecolotlán" published in Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Genealogía y Heráldica, México DF, 1952, p. 56.

I quote Mr. Agraz here:
"Décimosegundo nieto, Doctor Juan de la Cueva Mendoza y González, natural de la ciudad de Úbeda, donde fué regidor y Dña. Inés de Castro, de la antigua y noble familia de los 'Fernández de Castro.'"

In English this says that Juan de la Cueva Mendoza y González was from the city of Ubeda, and he was a member of the town council. He was married to Ines de Castro, and that she was of the ancient and noble family of Fernández de Castro.

The next few pages give some more details of his family, but the full text is in that original post of 28 Feb. A quick summary is:

Dr. Juan de la Cueva must have lived in the early 16th century in Spain since his son Beltrán de la Cueva Mendoza y Castro (p. 57) won a trial in 1547 in the royal Chancellery of Granada that affirmed that he was the descendant of noble knights. (I would love to find that original document but haven't had luck yet) Beltrán's son was named Cap. Juan de la Cueva Mendoza y Molina was born 1552 in Úbeda, Spain (p. 58). Note: the Beltrán mentioned in this paragraph is NOT the same as the homonymous ancestor from Tecolotlan, but rather his great-grandfather.

I hope this helps!

Sergio Sean Salés

Comentario

I forgot to mention who Dr. Juan de la Cueva's parents were.

Per Mr. Gabriel Agraz Garcia de Alba's work, Dr. Juan de la Cueva was the son of Diego de la Cueva y Mendoza and of Maria Gonzalez. Diego was son of Ruy Perez de la Cueva and of Sancha de Mendoza. This is where the Mendoza name comes in.

As you can see in the post of 28 Feb there was some debate as to how Ruy came into the picture. But Sancha de Mendoza was of the Hurtado de Mendoza line. Ruy and Sancha probably lived during the 1400s, probably the earlier half of the century.

This is from "Origen y Desenvolvimiento de la Familia de la Cueva en Tecolotlán" published in Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Genealogía y Heráldica, México DF, 1952, p. 56.

Sergio Salés

Comentario

Great work Sergio,

Ruy Perez de la Cueva is the son of Gil Martinez de la Cueva and Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva. Ruys parents are second cousins. These two parents have been mistaken for uncle and niece instead of second cousins.
Many genealogists present a different family tree then the one that I am presenting here. The reason for the different lines is that there are three Diego Fernandez de la Cueva, all closely related. I will present the three with roman numerals I, II, & III to keep them straight. What makes this line even more confusing is that there are two Gil Martinez de la Cueva. They have two different titles which differentiates them. One Gil is Blanca's father and the other Gil is her husband. There are also two wives surnamed Alfonso de Mercado.

On Wikipedia they have Beltran de la Cueva as the son of one of Diego Fernandez de la Cueva III primer Visconde de Huelma and the wife of Juan Fernandez de la Cueva, Maria Alfonso de Mercado, so one of us is wrong. I don't think I'm wrong.

1. Hugo Beltran, Alferez mayor del Pendon de la Cruzada + Maria Fernandez de la Cueva. (Hugo Beltran came from France to Spain with his cousin, Ramon Beltran and other French to fight the Muslims.)
Two sons
1.1 Diego Fernandez de la Cueva I married to Leonor Sanchez de la Trapera. [this is the grandfather of Gil Martinez de la Cueva]
{this is the first line}

1.2. Juan Martinez de la Cueva [this is the grandfather of Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva] Juan's wife is Marina Alfonso de Mercado

1.1 Diego Fernandez de la Cueva I ( son of Hugo Beltran) married to Leonor Sanchez
Son

1.1.1 Juan Sanchez de la Cueva and his wife Isabel Fernandez Davalos. [She is aka Isabel de Molina ( daughter of Diego Hernandez de Molina and Teresa Gonzalez de Aranda.)]
Son

1.1.1.1. Gil Martinez de la Cueva marries his second cousin, Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva, granddaughter of his great uncle 1.2 Juan Martinez de la Cueva.

1.1.1.1.1Diego Fernandez de la Cueva III, 1.Visconde de Huelma married to Mayor Alfonso de Mercado (Mayor is often confused with Marina Alfonso de Mercado who is married to 1.2 Juan Martinez de la Cueva)

Diego III and Mayor had many children, the most famous Son: Beltran de la Cueva, duque de Albuerquerque, rumored father of Juana La Beltrana

1.1.1.1.2. Ruy Perez de la Cueva married to Sancha Mendoza ( this line is continued )

Ruy Perez de la Cuevas supposedly the son of Gil Martinez de la Cueva and Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva. I have not confirmed that he is their son but have confirmed his fathers and mothers ancestry.Ruy Perez de la Cueva is married to Sancha Mendoza. Wikipedia states that Diego is the only son so if they are right, Ruy can't be Gil Matrinez de la Cuevas son. However the Wikipedia sites on this family has many errors where they confuse the Diegos and the wives. They actually have 4 Diego Fernandez de la Cuevas. I only listed the three that are directly connected to Blanca Fernandez de La Cueva. The Wikipedia sites with this family contradict each other and I have not relied on them for any information on these lines.)

1.1.1.1.2.1. Diego de la Cueva y Mendoza and of Maria Gonzalez.

1.1.1.1.2.1.1 Dr. Juan de la Cueva Mendoza y Gonzalez married to Ines Fernandez de Castro

I have no information on Sancha Mendoza. I believe that Sancha is most likely Mendoza through her mother as I don't find her in my databanks for the Mendoza.

Second Line the ancestry of Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva. She has a brother named Diego Fernandez de la Cueva II. Her descent from 1.2 juan Martinez de la Cueva is next.

1.2. Juan Martinez de la Cueva [this is the grandfather of Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva] Juan's wife is Marina Alfonso de Mercado

1.2.1. Gil Martinez de la Cueva, Sr de la casa de Villarejo married to Blanca Fernandez de Biedma (daughter of Ruy Diaz de Biedma and Maria Fernandez de Biedma

Son and daughter:

1.2.1.1. Diego Fernandez de la Cueva II, Sr. De Villarejo

1.2.1.2. Blanca Fernandez de la Cueva married to her second cousin, Gil Martinez de la Cueva, Sr de la casa de la Cueva

1.2.1.2.1. Diego Fernandez de la Cueva III, 1.Visconde de Huelma married to Mayor Alfonso de Mercado (Mayor is often confused with Marina Alfonso de Mercado who is married to 1.2 Juan Martinez de la Cueva)

Diego III and Mayor had many children, the most famous Son: Beltran de la Cueva, duque de Albuerquerque, rumored father of Juana La Beltrana

1.2.1.2.2 Ruy Perez de la Cueva married to Sancha Mendoza

1.2.1.2.2.1. Diego de la Cueva y Mendoza and of Maria Gonzalez.

1.2.2.2.1,1. Dr. Juan de la Cueva Mendoza y Gonzalez married to Ines Fernandez de Castro

I have many titles for these people that I have not added here.

Thank you again Sergio
R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Hola Carlos,

Me parece muy lógica la relación que haces de los Pantoja y me alegra que mencionaras a los Ulloa. Francamente no tengo idea de dónde salió ese apellido. La sugerencia del Doctor Juan de la Cueva y Mendoza también me parece de mucho interés, de los otros de la Cueva que mencioné lo único de interés es el nombre de Bernardina y la ascendencia Mendoza pero aún así y sin mayores documentos que prueben el enlace con Álvaro de la Cueva, no es una pista fuerte ya que no hay evidencia que pasaran a Indias.

Habrá que tener en consideración la descendencia y parentescos del Doctor Juan de la Cueva.

Saludos,

Erik R.

Comentario

Giuomar Ulloa esta casada con Juan Merlo
Guiomar is the third and last wife of Juan Merlo, most genealogies posted on the internet do not list her as Juana's mother.

The family knows that they are connected to the Toledos so they assume that the second is the mother of Juana. but in court documents that dealt with a dispute over property inheritances there is a mistake made and Genealogist read this mistake and ran with it. The court documents make what At least one other mistake where they list Juan's two wives as sisters. documents show that Diego Merlo And juana are Guiomars biological children. The actual connections of the Pantoja and the Alvarez Toledo family are many. The Alvarez Toledo family married often into different branches of the armildez family. The three branches are the Lopez de Ayala, Pantoja,

Post Script

In her life, Guiomar was a very privileged woman who had the highest standing in the royal court of the Catholic kings. If Queen Isabella left the court and traveled, she left Guiomar Ulloa in charge of her children. Queen Isabela gave her complete responsibility. No wonder they surnamed Bernardina s sister after her. She was the second mother to the princes of Castilla. Guiomars half brother is treasurer to the queen. This half brother is also married to a relative of the queen.
Hija:
Juana Merlo casada con Gonzalo Pantoja Portocerrero

Juan Merlo se caso tres veces y por eso fue mas dificil encontrar de donde viene lo Ulloa.

There are numerous connections to the Alvarez de toledo family, just not the two posted on the internet. I do have the numerous connections all mapped out.
R A Ricci

The sources where I compiled this information are in my book that I hope to publish this summer. The individual sources, when pieced together totally support this information. The book has already been copyrighted and i am adding a little more to it before it goes to the printers.

Comentario

Mario González my Spanish is bad but I have seen a family tree that shows Luis Hurtado de Mendoza Guzman is Bernardina Mendoza 3rd great grandfather as demonstrated below.

Luis Hurtado de Mendoza Guzmán & Inés Toledo

Next generation
Inés Mendoza & Martín Pantoja

Next generation
Juan Pantoja & María Peña

Next generation
Catalina Pantoja & Alonso Cuevas

Next generation
Bernardina Mendoza 1533-1614 married 1554 Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor 1531-†

The tree said Un proyecto desarrollado desde el Instituto de Investigaciones Históricas de la Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Hello rmcneal,

We are currently discussing this line in the following node : http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/19810

And as you will see there´s a lot of "information" on the net that is at best misleading.

The "information" that you found in that Proyecto of the UNAM is unsustainable because

Luis Hurtado Mendoza Guzmán Suárez de Toledo nació por 1515 y fue primogénito de la Casa de Orgáz y casó ca 1535 con Inés Álvarez de Toledo, ellos tuvieron a :

Inés Toledo y Hurtado de Mendoza nacida ca 1550 (hermana del 6º Conde de Orgáz), la cual casó ca 1570 con Martín de Pantoja Portocarrero 11º Sr de Mocejón; esta pareja tuvo a :

Luis Pantoja Portocarrero Hurtado de Mendoza, quien nació ca 1570 y testó el 15-oct-1608 en Toledo, el fue 12º Sr. de Mocejón y Benacasón y casó el 12-feb-1597 con Sancha Silva Guzmán (quien murió en 1649),ella al parecer ya viuda dió poder en 1620 a su hijo Martín Pantoja Portocarrero 13o Sr de Mocejón bautizado el 19-sep-1600.

Como puedes ver es imposible que Inés Hurtado de Mendoza and Martín Pantoja sean the great grandparents of Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza since this Bernardina is supposed to have been born on 1533 when Inés (the supposed ggrandmother) had not yet been born.

Apparently though, there may be a relationship with the "Señores de Mocejón" but it comes through a first cousin of Martín Pantoja the 11th Sr de Mocejón married to Ines Toledo Hurtado de Mendoza (de los condes de Orgáz), this first cousin is Catalina Pantoja de la Peña (not confirmed) whose grandmother was Elvira Portocarrero y Guzmán Sra de Mocejón who was also the grandmother of Martín Pantoja the multimentioned 11th Sr de Mocejón.

So Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza may be a descendant of the pantojas but not from the main branch (Gonzalo Pantoja 10th Sr de Mocejón) but through his brother Juan Pantoja.

I hope we can find some conclusive information regarding this people soon.

Regards

Comentario

Carlos, thanks again after reading your response I started looking for more information and I found a little more in some snippets I was able to pull from, "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia": Guadalajara - Volume 1 - Page 43 and 64. The snippets didn't give me the parents of Benardina Mendoza but it does say, if I am reading it correctly that Martín Pantoja and Ines Mendoza had a son Juan married to Maria de la Pena (on the same page which I can't see all of it mentions Catalina Mendoza. I am hoping somewhere on that page it lists her parents). The closest library to me with this volume is 175 miles away but I will try to get there with in the next couple of weeks to research further and maybe find some source to back up what I am able to find in the book.

Fundadores de Nueva Galicia": Guadalajara - Volume 1 - Page 43

Cuebas, Alvaro de los (hizo testamento el 28 Enero 1590), ceccino de Guadlajara, reino de Castilla, cassado con Catalina de Pantoja hija de Juan de Pantoja y de Maria de la Pena.

Fundadores de Nueva Galicia": Guadalajara - Volume 1 -Page 64

Pantoja, Juan de hijo Martin de Pantoja (senor de Mocajan en el reino de Castilla) y de Ines de Mendosa k. con Maria de la Pena, veccinos de Sevilla.
Hijos Catalina de Pantoja, casso Alvaro de las Cuevas

Pena, Baltazar de la k. con Catalina de Mendoza (hija de Gonzalo Núñez de Soto y de Bernardina de Mendoza)

Randy McNeal

Comentario

The Pantoja surname was originally Hermildez or Armildes.

Garci Gonzalez Pantoja and Mencia Daza are the parents of

Tello Pantoja, Martin Pantoja, and Gutierre Gonzalez Pantoja

Our line continues with Tello Pantoja Sr. de dehesa de Vanegas

Tello Pantoja is married to Aldonza de Monroy (daughter of Estevan Rodriguez de Monroy and Maria de Guzman.) (Another source names Tellos maternal grandparents as Alvar Rodriguez de Monroy and Maria Guzman).
Son:

Gonzalo Pantoja, "el Mayor" born abt 1445, Sr de Mocejon, Regidor de Toledo, Guarda, y Vassallo del Rey is married abt 1465 to Elvira Portocerrero, Sra de Bencezon y Mocezon (daughter of Fernando Portocerrero and Maria de Guzman). Elvira was the one who inherited the title Sra. De Mocezon after her brothers died. She was the tenth Sra de Mocezon, and had children in the 1470's. the children and grandchildren may have earlier birthdates than we have seen in these posts which could allow the additional generation that we are struggling with and Bernardina may have a later birthdate than we had been supposing.

Gonzalo Pantoja Portocaerrero, born abt 1465 24 de Sevilla, Sr. De Mocezon y Bencezon marries Juana Merlo (Melo) (She is the daughter of Juan Merlo and his second wife, Guiomar de Ulloa. another document names her mother as Isabel de Toledo but I believe that Isabel is a third wife and stepmother. there are three wives ( I have confirmed that Isabel's father is Pedro Suarez de Toledo) (Juana has a half-sibling named Garcia Alvarez de Toledo who is related to isabel Toledo. Numerous internet genealogies have juana as Melo and I did find a document with this surname but I have her identified more often as using the Merlo surname. The documents I have also refer to her father and grandfather as Merlo. See below. Melo and Merlo are interchangeable as later generations used Melo or Mello.
Gonzalo and Juana are the parents of:

The following are two competing claims regarding the ancestry of Catalina Pantoja

First claim without Martin Pantoja as an ancestor, this is the claim with a higher probability.

Pedro Pantoja Portecerrero and Catalina (Leonor?) Rodriguez

Juan Pantoja y Rodriguez (¿El corregidor de Michoacan?) married to María de la Peña and in Michoacan in 1538.
Daughter:

Catalina Pantoja y de la Peña b. abt 1520 married abt 1540 to Álvaro de la Cueva,
Daughter:

Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza b. abt 1545 and married in 1565 to Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor.

Second claim with the junior Gonzalo as the grandfather of Martin and great grandfather of Juan Pantoja married to Maria Pena. This claim is not possible in light of recent research, but it is the one claimed most often by genealogists posting on the internet(which doesn't add anything to its validity).

Gonzalo Pantoja Portocaerrero, born abt 1480, 24 de Sevilla, Sr. De Mocezon y Bencezon marries Juana Melo (Merlo) (She is the daughter of Juan Merlo and Guiomar Ulloa. Another wife of Juan Merlo is Isabel Alvarez de Toledo) ( I have confirmed that Isabel's father is Pedro Suarez de Toledo) (Juana has a half-sibling named Garcia Alvarez de Toledo)
Gonzalo and Juana are the parents of:

Martin Pantoja married to Ines Hurtado de Mendoza (parents: Luis Hurtado de Mendoza Guzmán & Inés Toledo)

Juan Pantoja & María Peña

Catalina Pantoja & Alonso Cuevas

Bernardina Mendoza ?-†1614 married 1554 Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor ?-†?

The reason there is Ulloa in the family: Guiomar Ulloa
Gonzalo Pantoja Portocaerrero, born abt 1460, 24 de Sevilla,10 th Sr. De Mocezon y Bencezon marries Juana Merlo.She is the daughter of Juan Merlo and Guiomar Ulloa) Juan Merlo is also known as el Bravo. This Juan Merlo, Sr de Layos, is the "Guarda Mayor de Enrique iv y alcaide de reales Alcazares de Sevilla. Juan Merlo is born in Castilla and the son of the Portuguese Martin Alfonso de Merlo II and Teresa Acuna.Martin Alfonso Merlo II is the son of Martin Alfonso Merlo who moved to Castilla with two of his brothers.. Martin alfonso Merlo II served as " Mayordomo mayor y maestresala de la reina Dona Beatriz" wife of Juan I of Castilla and daughter of King Ferdinand of Portugal. Martin Alfonso Merlo holds a very high position in the royal court, to the queen, which allows him to marry as his second wife Marina Vasquez Pimentel,(aka Beatriz Pimentel). the daughter of the Conde de Benevente. At this time I do not know the name of his first wife, . Martin alfonso Merlo II is one of the two sons from this second wife that have titles and leave many Melo descendents in Portugal and Castilla.
Juana Merlo's brother, Diego Merlo also had an impressive military career like his father. Diego is married to Constanza known as both Constanza de Guevara and as Constanza Carillo de Toledo. Constanza is the daughter of Juan Carillo (adelantado de Cazorla) and Teresa Guevara. Martin de Merlo's position as Maestresala was more than just a chief waiter. It was his task to protect the health of Queen Beatriz and make sure she wasn't poisoned. Martin Alfonso de Merlo I first held this position and Martin Alfonso de Merlo inherited it. Some genealogies erroneously state that Constanza is Juan Merlo's wife when she is the daughter in law.
Juan merlo was married three times and one wife is identified as Isabel de Toledo. Isabel is the mother of Garcia Alvarez de Toledo.i have not yet identified one of the wives. The second wife was Juana and Diego's mother, Guiomar Ulloa. I believe that Guiomar is the second wife and Isabel is the third wife. Diego Merlo y Ulloa was a big time military hero so even after his sisters descendents, who were surnamed Pantoja and moved to Mexico would have kept up his legend in the family. Diego was involved in a very famous heart wrenching story of romance that was Spain's Romeo and Juliet. It turns out that I had studied Martin Afonso Melo before when trying to figure out Christoher Colombus's wife's maternal ancestry. In that research I had only been looking for Melo and Mello and had not yet discovered that the surname had started out as Merlo.

With Juan Merlo's multiple marriages, I need to do more research to make sure which children are from which marriage since two sources claim a different mother for a couple of the children.

New information: Martin Alfonso Merlo I mother in law is the sister of the Queen of Portugal. The Pantoja family has many connections to the Alvarez de Toledo family, and the the mendoza family.
Please correct me if you find mistakes

Thank you to everyone contributing to this discussion,
R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Como aquí se ha comentado, respecto a la ascendencia de Bernardina de Mendoza hay en la red varios "arboles" genealógicos que la hacen descender de Martín de Pantoja e Inés de Toledo, creo que todos ellos partieron de la "información" proporcionada por Garmendia Leal en su trabajo de "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia", así que creo que eso disculpa a todos aquellos que subieron a la red esos "árboles genealógicos", sin embargo, aunque lo haya publicado un estudioso de prestigio, no necesariamente lo así publicado es verídico.

En el presente caso creo que precisamente por haber sido publicado por alguien de prestigio se formó un embrollo que no se solucionó por no cuestionar siquiera que lo publicado fuera erroneo.

Puedo afirmar , con los datos que he podido verificar, que es imposible que Bernardina sea bisnieta del Martín Pantoja que casó con Inés de Toledo la hermana del Conde de Orgáz relacionada con los Duques de Alba.

We know so far that our Bernardina was the daughter of a Catalina de Pantoja married to Álvaro de la Cueva

We know that Bernardina must have been born around 1550 and must have married Gonzalo Núñez Sotomayor between 1570-1578 because her daughter Catalina married around 1595 to Baltazar de la Peña. We know that because they baptized their daughter María de la Peña Mendoza on feb-7th-1600.

Now, if Bernardina was born around 1550, we can suggest that her parents Catalina and Álvaro married around 1540 which leads us to infer that Catalina was born around 1520.

We know that this Catalina was the daughter of Juan Pantoja and María de la Peña so this Juan must have married around 1510-1520.

Finally : Juan CAN´T be the son of Martín Pantoja "Señor de Mocejón" and Inés Toledo because this last couple married when "their son" was already 70 years old !!!

OUR Juan MUST HAVE BEEN BORN between 1480-1500, and "his parents" married pretty much close to 1560. There´s no way Garmendia can explain that.

I still believe that OUR Juan and Martín "Señor de Mocejón" could be related but OUR Juan was very likely THE UNCLE of his supposed father Martín. Juan was very likely the brother of the father of Martín.

Comentario

Hello Carlos,

I agree with you that Garmendia Leal is wrong. Bernardina Mendoza may not descend from the dukes of Alba but she is their cousin. I have found proof that Gonzalo's great great grandmother is also the ancestor to the dukes of Alba. I have also found another link to the mendoza family.
The next step though is to see where Garmendia Leal got all of his information and to try to get it right.
We have evidence that she descends from the Pantoja line, and the Ulloa link has been found, so now we need to solidify the connections and study the alfonso Cuevas mendoza line. The connection that I made with the Merlo family makes this family high nobility, true aristocrats, not just nobility. It would be nice to get in contact with Luz Montejano and show her what we have found so far.
Keep up the excellent work.

R A Ricci

Anyone interested in the marriage record for Joseph Moreno de Ortega & Petrolina Ramirez?

Hello everyone,

I just found a record that has been eluding me for a very long time. If anyone is interested it is a very interesting read.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola Angelina,

Thank you for posting this information. 

We are descended (2x) from the brother of Joseph Moreno de Ortega and sister of Petronila Ramírez: Juan Antonio Moreno de Ortega and Graciana Ramírez (married in 1715) through their two daughters: María Catarina (1741 cc Evaristo José Gómez), and Ana María (1738 cc Nicolás Antonio de Jaso). 

Sisters Graciana and Petronila Ramírez are granddaughters of Baltazar de los Reyes and Graciana de Ramos AKA de Mezquita, and great-granddaughters of early Lagos residents, Bartolomé de Mezquita and Luísa de Torres.

Thank you, again!

Best,

Travis

Nueva información sobre Juan de Pantoja

Buenos días.

Hace algunos años tuvimos una interesante conversación sobre Juan de Pantoja, padre de Bernardina de Mendoza y Pantoja y esposa de Gonzalo Núñez de Soto.

Comentarios

Comentario

Peter Boyd Bowman wrote in his book that Pedro Pantoja and Catalina Rodriguez are the parents of Juan Pantoja. He provided detail as to when Pedro Pantoja came over and when Juan Pantoja came over.   
 
What caused the confusion was that we have many Pedro Pantojas who have a son named Juan Pantoja.   
And Baltazar Mendoza, brother of a Pedro Pantoja, did have a son named Juan Pantoja who came to the “new world”.  

If we are to believe Peter Boyd Bowman’s research, then Pedro Pantoja, that is the father of  the Juan Pantoja that is married to Catalina Medina, arrived in what is now Mexico in 1522. Pedro Pantoja passed away in 1565. Pedro Pantoja traveled to Mexico with a government official, an assistant of Cortez. It is clear when this Pedro Pantoja arrived, and he is not the same person that arrived with a nephew.


A Balthazar Mendoza did come over to Mexico as we find his name in a document with a list of people in Mexico City. He is referred to as Don Balthazar Mendoza.

The Juan Pantoja that was the son of Baltazar Mendoza did come over, but he did not marry Catalina Medina.   

The Pedro Pantoja from Medellin that is married to Catalina Rodriguez is found in a document that lists his father and he is a close relative of the Pantojas that we have been studying. This document identifies one of Pedro Pantoja’s activities prior to coming to Mexico. Catalina Rodriguez did not come to the “new world”. 

More research is needed to positively identify Catalina Rodriguez's ancestry. A record has her with an extended surname. I have seen a secondary source with her parents"s names but I am looking for primary sources to confirm that information.
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

10 enero 1577: Declaración de Gonzalo Hernández, conquistador de la Nueva España y vecino de la ciudad de México: conoce al dicho Juan de Pantoja más de cuarenta años y que sabe que se halló en la conquista de esta ciudad de México porque Diego Hernández Nieto conquistador se lo ha dicho a este testigo...l dicho Pantoja y su tío habían venido a la dicha conquista treinta días antes que se ganase la tierra y que así mismo sabe este testigo por habérselo dicho que el dicho Juan Pantoja se halló en las conquistas de Colima y Zacatula y otras partes y que en ellas sirvió muy bien a su majestad y que por razón de lo suso dicho cree que se le dio repartimiento de indios y que no sabe ni se acuerda cuáles y que sabe que el dicho Juan Pantoja es caballero e hijodalgo notorio porque por tal era de todos habido y el dicho su tío (Pedro Pantoja) que con él vino...

Comentario

While looking for information on Domingo Medina, I overlooked what could be an important clue on my search for information on “Munguia” ancestors. Here is the entry where I focused on Domingo Medina, father-in-law of Juan Pantoja (son of Baltazar Mendoza y Pantoja and Leonor de la Cerda Ulloa),

Nº 3,R.2. 1556-1557.
El fiscal contra Domingo de Medina y Pedro de Monguía, alcalde ordinario y
procurador del pueblo de Guayangareo e Nº 3,R.2. 1556-1557.
El fiscal contra Domingo de Medina y Pedro de Monguía, alcalde ordinario y
procurador del pueblo de Guayangareo en la jurisdicción de Michoacán, sobre haber
injuriado al alcalde mayor de dicha ciudad. 1 pieza

I should have paid more attention to “Pedro de Monguía, alcalde ordinario y procurador del pueblo de Guayangareo en la jurisdicción de Michoacán,”

Now to look for information on this Pedro de Monguia (Munguia), alcalde ordinario.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Through Diego de Velasco y Temiño’s descent from “Garcia Gomez de Carillo, Señor de Ormasa y Mazuelo and Elvira Alvarez de Osorio” you will find that Juan Pantoja, son of Baltazar Mendoza and Leonor de la Cerda and husband of Catalina Medina, is a distant relative. Juan Pantoja has ancestors that are closely related to both Garcia Gómez de Carillo de Ormasa y Mazuelo and his wife Elvira Alvarez de Osorio.

Diego de Velasco y Temiño’s descent from “Garcia Gomez de Carillo.Señor de Ormasa y Mazuelo Elvira Alvarez de Osorio” can be found here:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23328?page=1

Through Juan Pantoja’s “Álvarez Osorio” ancestry he is also related to Hernando Padilla Dávila , “Villaseñor” and to the López Peralta (Coria Peralta).
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

In my research, I came across many instances where genealogists were taking the surname Soto to be short for Sotomayor. While this is true in many cases, it is not true in all cases. In some families, the “Soto” surname was originally “Scotto” in Genoa. The surname Scotto was changed to Soto when they arrived in Andalucia. The surname Scotto was originally another surname which I write about in my book.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Sorting out the family entanglements of the Pantoja family tree is not an easy task. Although secondary sources had placed the Captain / Lt. Juan Pantoja as a first cousin of our Juan Pantoja y Mendosa, a primary source points to the person that killed him as being the first cousin. They were short of food so it was recorded that the surviving crew ate their dead. Because of the similar name of Juan Pantoja, I am assuming that genealogists had assumed that the captain was the first cousin. They could have all been first cousins, but I doubt it as Captain Juan Pantoja is not identified as being killed by his first cousin, and the killer is identified as being the brother of a cousin of Juan Pantoja y Mendoza.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

 The confusion comes about because there were numerous “Juan Pantoja” that are considered Conquistadores. There are at least four first cousin Juan Pantojas that are considered conquistadors in the “new world”. Baltazar Mendoza, Pedro Pantoja and a sister of theirs all had sons that are named “Juan Pantoja” making them first cousins. These first cousins are named after their paternal grandfather “Juan Pantoja”. Pedro Pantoja arrived in the “new world” with his nephew Juan Pantoja (son of Balthazar Mendoza and Leonor Ulloa De la Cerda). A second Juan Pantoja is a  son of Pedro and a third Juan pantoja is son of Baltazar’s sister and he was a Ship Captain /sailor.who was murdered by a companion while on exploration of North America. The fourth Juan Pantoja was a first cousin once removed that arrived in 1519 to Cuba, and 1522 to Mexico City.

Comentario

Dear Rick,

Thanks to your findings on the Ulloa side now we know that Juan de Pantoja and Pedro de Alvarado were related and I wanted to thank you for all the support and amazing discoveries that you have been sharing with us. (If you posted this before, please forgive me)

Fernán Gutiérrez de Valverde = Mafalda de la Cerda

1.1 María Gutiérrez de Valverde = Gonzalo Porcallo Morán
1.1.1 María Morán de la Cerda = Lorenzo de Ulloa y Carvajal.
1.1.1.1 Leonor Ulloa de la Cerda = Baltasar de Mendoza y Pantoja.
1.1.1.1.1 Juan de Pantoja y Mendoza = Catalina de Medina.

1.2. Violante Gutiérrez de Valverde = Gutierre González de Trejo.
1.2.1 Isabel Gutiérrez de Trejo = Gonzalo de Contreras y Carvajal.
1.2.1.1 Leonor de Contreras y Gutiérrez de Trejo = Gómez de Alvarado y Mexía de Sandoval.
1.2.1.1.1 Pedro de Alvarado y Contreras.

Basically the conquistadores were third cousins.

Is this also ok with the data you have?

Best,

Erik R.

Comentario

Dear Erik,

What you have posted is in line with my information. Thanks to you Erik for finding the key primary sources that proved that Juan Pantoja was Pedro Pantoja’s nephew. Your key information led us to the right branch of the Pantoja family, and to my research on the de la Cerda Ulloa family.

Thank you Eric for your kind words. As you know, I have done extensive research on the Pantoja family in Mexico, the America’s and Spain as I looked to connect this line to the Pantojas in Spain. It was your two important puzzle pieces (primary sources) that brought everything together. It wasn’t until you provided the two key missing pieces, that I was able to figure out how all of these numerous Juan Pantojas were related to each other. It was a major surprise to find out that they were all so closely related to each other.

Much of my different areas of research keep overlapping. Like you, lots of my finds are when I am looking for something else. One of the books that I have been working on is how many conquistadors are related to each other. It started out as a chapter, but became so large that it had become a book. The reason I was able to take the information that you found and connect it to the correct branch is that when I was looking for the ancestry of our Juan Pantoja y Mendoza,

This research brought much frustration over the years because my goal was to find the Juan Pantoja that was the father of Bernardina Mendoza. While researching the different branches of the family I kept coming up with relatives that are conquistadors. Pizarro is one of the relatives, and Pizarro is a relative of Cortez.

Although I never did find Bernardina Mendozas parents, we are very fortunate that you did with your fantastic finds. Those puzzle pieces that you found connected our Juan Pantoja y Mendoza as the son of Baltazar Mendoza and Leonor Ulloa de La Cerda.

There is much much more to the story of this family. A member of this family was killed in a jealous rage by her husband after he found out about her affair. The person that she had the affair with later married their daughter. You can be sure that there was one unhappy father. They left many descendants in what is now northern Mexico and the southwest of the United States of America.

Thanks again Erik,
Rick

Comentario

Erik,
In the first section you state 1.1.1 María Morán de la Cerda married to Lorenzo de Ulloa y Carvajal. According to Viejos Linajes de Cáceres, 1971, by Jose Miguel Lodo de Mayoralgo, page 320 her name is Beatriz Morán. Also, her name is “Beatriz” in Hidalguia; La Revista de Genealogía, Nobleza y Arms (Revista Hidalguia), 1984. No. 184-185, p. 553.
In the second section you state 1.2.1 Isabel Gutiérrez de Trejo (d/ Violante Gutiérrez de Valverde and Gutierre González de Trejo) – However, According to Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia, 1935, Vol. 106, p. 526:
1.2.1 Isabel Gutiérrez de Trejo is the daughter of Alfonso de Cháves and Leonor López de Trejo y Ulloa.
They still appear to be 3rd cousins but on another line. Please let me know if I got something wrong.
Damien

Comentario

Damien, I know that your questions were for Erik, but if you read my post in this thread on this lineage, you will see that I list Lorenzo Ulloa’s wife as Beatriz Moran. Here is the post: King Henry II England to Bernardina Mendoza Submitted by R.A.Ricci on Wed, 2020-09-23 00:56. Bernardina Mendoza descends from King Henry II of England and Queen Eleanore of Aquitane 1)Henry II King of England and Eleanor of Aquitane Queen of England 2 Eleonore de Inglaterra, princesa de inglaterra and Alfonso VIII rey de Castilla 3 Berenguela de Castilla and Alfonso IX rey de Leon 4 San Fernando III rey de Castilla and Beatriz de Suavia ( Elizabeth Hohenstaufen) 5 Alfonso X Fernandez and Yolanda Aragon 6 Fernando infante de Castilla and Blanca de Francia Capet 7 Alfonso de la Cerda and Mahalda de Brienne 8 Luis de la Cerda, infante de Castilla and Leonor Alfonso de Guzman 9Juan de la Cerda and Sol Martinez 10 Martin Gonzalez de Cerda and Violante Alvarez Pereira 11 Mahalda de la Cerda y Fernan Gutierrez de Valverde 12 Mari Gutierrez de Valverde y de la Cerda and Gonzalo Porcallo De Morán 13 Beatriz Moran and Lorenzo Ulloa 14 Leonor Ulloa De la Cerda and Balthazar Mendoza.


 

Comentario

Rick,
Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to reconcile the two.

On another note, do you have a source that states Juana Núñez de Soto who married Diego Ochoa Garibay is the daughter of Gonzalo Núñez de Soto and Bernardina de Mendoza y Pantoja? Or one that show Juana as the sister of Catalina de Mendoza wife of Baltazar de la Peña y Medina?

González-Leal, Mariano, Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia, multiple volume mentions Juana Núñez (de Soto) who married Diego Ochoa Garibay (Tomo VI, Vol. 2, p. 512), but I could not find where it mentions her parents.

Damien

Comentario

Dear Damien,

The questions that you are asking is what started the discussions on the Pantoja lineage on nuestrosranchos.

What happened was that someone mentioned that Juana Nuñez de Soto descended from nobility. I stated that I didn’t even know who her parents were. I didn’t even know that the Soto was short for Sotomayor. So it was explained to me that it was known that she descended from Juan Pantoja and who her parents were. Then I researched the supposed maternal great grandparents and found that information to be wrong as those great grandparents were close to her age.

Next what happened is that I attempted to construct the Ancestry of the Juan Pantoja that was said to be her ancestor. I compiled a tremendous amount of information on the Pantoja family, but I had not seen any primary source documents regarding the claims made on Bernardina’s parents, or any primary sources documents on her supposed ancestors in Mexico. I mistakenly believed what they told me that Pedro Pantoja was an ancestor. Pedro Pantoja is not a direct ancestor. Many people still wrongly believe that Bernardina descends from Pedro.

The first big key was Erik finding the document naming Juan Pantoja Mendoza and Catalina Medina. The next key documents were documents from Mexico City, and another document naming Juan Pantoja Mendoza as the nephew of Pedro Pantoja. This was a very important find because there were many “Juan Pantoja”, and most of them were very closely related, so it was important to find out which one. Once we found out that he was the son of Baltazar Mendoza and Leonor Ulloa (aka de La Cerda), then I could connect him to the families that I had already researched.

I hope this short version of the collaboration helps,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Rick,
Thanks, I’m new to the group and I’ve been putting the pieces together of the posts related to this family.

Then there is proof that Juana Núñez de Sotomayor wife of Diego Ochoa Garibay is the daughter of Bernardina de Mendoza Pantoja? Also, that Juan Pantoja de Mendoza who married Catalina de Medina is the son of Baltazar Mendoza Pantoja & Leonor Ulloa de la Cerda?

From what I'm reading it is a yes to both; if so then I want to write an article for the New Mexico Genealogical Society, giving you and Erik credit for the finds. As, this impacts New Mexico descendants of Diego de Padilla and his wife Maria Vásquez y Baca.

Regards,

Comentario

Rick,
Do you have a source record stating Juana Núñez de Soto(mayor), wife of Diego Ochoa Garibay is the daughter of Gonzalo Núñez de Soto(mayor)and Bernardina de Mendoza y Pantoja. I'll be glad to pay for it if you accept Paypal.

I See that Catalina de Mendoza is clearly identified as a daughter in the source records that were shared by you and Erik.

Also, am interested in purchasing your book if it is for sale.
Damien

Comentario

Good afternoon,
I would like to know more about Captain Diego Ochoa Garibay y Solis and his son Diego Ochoa Garibay y Nuñez de Soto, if you have any information I would appreciate it.
I found this information and maybe you are interested.
House of Juana Nunez (Juana Nunez de Soto or Sotomayor; she is widow, of Capitan Diego Ochoa Garibay). His son - Diego Ochoa, cleric of the first tonsure (subdiacano). A maiden daughter, Dona Maria de Solis. A niece, Beatriz de Garibay. His servants - three black slaves named Maria; a mulatto, Domingo; an Indian, Mariana; and a mulatto, Diego.[1] ↑ Genealogical journal, Volumes 1-3, SHHAR, 1994 - University of Texas. Page 123.
I don't know if they would have two children with the name of Diego, and one is a priest and the other is my ancestor.

Comentario

Juan Pantoja descends from King Henry II of England and Queen Eleanore of Aquitane 1)Henry II King of England and Eleanor of Aquitane Queen of England 2 Eleonore de Inglaterra, princesa de inglaterra and Alfonso VIII rey de Castilla 3 Berenguela de Castilla and Alfonso IX rey de Leon 4 San Fernando III rey de Castilla and Beatriz de Suavia ( Elizabeth Hohenstaufen) 5 Alfonso X Fernandez and Yolanda Aragon 6 Fernando infante de Castilla and Blanca de Francia Capet 7 Alfonso de la Cerda and Mahalda de Brienne 8 Luis de la Cerda, infante de Castilla and Leonor Alfonso de Guzman 9Juan de la Cerda and Sol Martinez 10 Martin Gonzalez de Cerda and Violante Alvarez Pereira 11 Mahalda de la Cerda y Fernan Gutierrez de Valverde 12 Mari Gutierrez de Valverde y de la Cerda and Gonzalo Porcallo De Morán 13 Beatriz Moran and Lorenzo Ulloa 14 Leonor Ulloa De la Cerda and Balthazar Mendoza Pantoja 15 Juan Pantoja Mendoza, Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Dear Erik, Gracias a ti Erik pudimos aclarar la ascendencia de Bernardina Mendoza Pantoja. Esta línea incluye Ulloa y explica porque ay descendientes con el apellido Ulloa. Y también enseña descendencia de los infante (principes) de la Cerda. El Balthazar Mendoza Pantoja que mencionas es el padre de el Juan Pantoja que está casado con Catalina Medina. The Pantoja lineage is mainly made up of a mixture of Ancient Arabic, Jewish, Castilian and Aragonese nobility with some Royal lines from Castilla, León, France and England. I can trace the lineage to King Henry II and Eleanore of Aquitane. The Arabic and Jewish lines the have been Catholic for at least a couple of centuries by 1400 so they are looked upon as “old Christians” with a knowledge of these ancient roots. 2) Juan Pantoja and Elvira Alvarez Mendoza ( daughter of Alfonso Duran Mendoza and Aldonza Vasquez de Sandoval) 3) Balthazar Mendoza Panto and Leonor Ulloa De la Cerda [Balthazar Mendoza’s brother, Pedro Pantoja, was born before his parents were married and he was legitimized after the marriage. 

disproved:

4) Juan Pantoja conquistador (b. before 1502 and d. After 1577) and Catalina Medina b. Abt 1515 5) Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja Ulloa (b. about 1533) and Gonzalo Nuñez de Sotomayor (Bernardina’s sister María was baptized 5/January/1541 - (Sagrario Metropolitano) - Ciudad de México 6) Juana Núñez de Sotomayor( born about 1555) and Diego Ochoa de Garibay 7) Francisca Ochoa Soto. (born about1593) and married on 27/Nov/1613 to Juan de la Mora y Mendoza Notes: Domingo Medina: “ Natural de Guareña, pasó a México en 1524 y visitó de nuevo España en 1526, enviado por Hernán Cortés a ver a Su Magestad. Veamos lo que él mismo nos cuenta, muchos años después: “Que es vecino de Mechoacán y natural de Garuena (Guareña), tierra de Medellín, e hijo legítimo de Diego González Serrano e de Ana Hernández Zambrana; e que a veynte y quatro años que pasó a esta Nueva Spaña, y que fué con el Marqués en servicio de Su Magestad a Guacaquaico y Honduras, por lo qual le fué encomendado la mytad del pueblo de Taucitaro, de que al presente se sirve, ques muy pobre y de menos provecho, y después con Vuestra Señoría Ilustrísima en la húltima pacificación de la Nueva Galizia (año 1541); y ques casado y tiene hijos e una hija casada, y su casa poblada, y que fue a Spaña, por mandado del Marqués a dar rrelación a Su Magestad de la tierra, y después con el bachiller Ortega; que fué por visitador de las provincias de Mechoacán, y por Capitán de ciertos pueblos que se avían rrelevado, todo a su costa” Juan Pantoja: “Juan de Pantoja, uno de los primeros conquistadores de la Nueva España y regidor de la ciudad de Pátzcuaro hizo un informe de méritos en 1577. Varios testigos indican que es caballero hijodalgo notorio de mucha calidad y natural de Medellín. Además pasó a la Nueva España con su tío Pedro de Pantoja.” Hay tres primos del mismo nombre, Juan Pantoja. 

Comentario

Hi Rick,
I’m a little confused about the maternal grandparents of Juana Núñez de Soto(mayor) wife of Diego Ochoa Garibay. Your have her parents Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja (1533-1614) and Gonzalo Núñez de Sotomayor.
In one post you have Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja’s (1533-1614) parents as Catalina Pantoja Pena Ulloa (born about 1515) and Alonso De la Cueva Mendoza (Submitted by R.A.Ricci (not verified) on Thu, 2017-03-30 19:09).
In another post you have Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja’s (1533-1614) parents as Catalina de Medina & Juan Pantoja de Mendoza. I assume that the later is a correction because it was posted, May 3, 2021, https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24761?page=1
So, the document provided by Erik ( MERITS: Sebastián de Lapeña y Mendoza, Archivo General de Indias, 1664, INDIFFERENT, 120, N.74, Image 7), shows Bernardina’s ancestry to Catalina de Medina & Juan Pantoja de Mendoza? If not what is that source that shows her parents?
Regards,
Damien

Comentario

Hello Damien,

The correct information on Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja’s (1533-1614) parents comes from documents shared by Erik. All the work that I had previously done on the Pantoja family was not a waste of time as I discovered a tremendous amount of information on the Pantoja ancestry, and many wonderful stories.

There were many “Juan Pantoja” first, second, and third cousins that lived about the same time and that is why there was much confusion as to which Juan Pantoja is Catalina de Medina’s husband, Juan Pantoja de Mendoza was the nephew of Pedro Pantoja, and not Pedro’s son.

Rick A. Ricci

PS I took a look at your ancestry and found that you share some New Mexico” ancestral lines with Raiders Quarterback Jim Plunkett. Comedian/actor John A. Leguziamo also descends from a Mendoza branch of the family that went to Colombia.

Comentario

Red Flags

1) The Juan Pantoja that is the son of Gonzalo Pantoja and Juana Merlo is not listed in the copies of his Parent’s wills. Yet Juan Pantoja states in his will that he wants to be buried next to his mother Juana Merlo's grave. This will is not a forgery.

2) Except for Juan Pantojas, Many of The family wills are not originals, but are copies written in the 1700's, when people were fighting over inheritances from over two centuries before. But in at least one of the wills there are major errors in the family tree. This will is a fake.

3) Gonzalo Pantoja is said to have a cousin with the same name. Is this cousin the Gonzalo Pantoja that married Juana Merlo Ulloa and is the great aunt of the Juana Merlo Toledo?

4) the Gonzalo Pantoja that is married to Juana Merlo Ulloa is the one that has sons named Juan Pantoja and Pedro Pantoja.

Comentario

Un ancestro de Juan Pantoja no podia resistir la idea de que le pisasen después de se muerte. El obtuvo del Rey permiso de ser enterrado en alto en la catedral de Toledo.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Gracias a ti Rick por esta información que es magnífica.

En la Real Chancillería de Granada hay un pleito de hidalguía que concluyó favorablemente en 1505 para Gonzalo Díaz (hijo de Alonso Díaz y de Marina Sánchez), vecino de Mérida en Badajoz y cuyos antepasados eran de Medellín donde también tenía familia. En dicho pleito se menciona que Gonzalo era pariente de Juana de Godoy, viuda de Pedro Pantoja el cual había sido exiliado por la condesa de Medellín en el contexto de la guerra entre Portugal y Castilla (La de 1475-1479?). Imagino que la condesa a la que hace referencia fue Inés de Ribera y Mendoza, esposa de Juan Portocarrero Pacheco.

No sé si este Pedro Pantoja sea el mismo que aparece en los siguientes documentos pero es posible, de ser el siguiente una generación posterior parece que los pleitos entre los Pantoja y los condes de Medellín duraron algo de tiempo: "Comisión al bachiller Alonso Téllez para que resuelva la demanda de Pedro de Pantoja, vecino de la villa de Cáceres, quien, con sus hermanos, heredó a su madre, Elvira Alvarez de Mendoza, y el conde de Medellín les ha tomado unas casas contra su voluntad - 1497-01-26 , Burgos" y "Seguro a favor de Pedro de Pantoja y de Baltasar de Mendoza, vecinos de Cáceres; de Alfonso Durán, vecino de Medellín y de Alvaro de Mendoza, que se recelan del conde de Medellín - 1488".

Un abrazo,

Comentario

Hola Erik,

Aquí te mando otro documento Que nombra a Juan Pantoja y Elvira Álvarez Mendoza:

Sobrecarta de una sentencia confirmando a Juan Pantoja y a su mujer Elvira Alvarez en la posesión de la heredad llamada 'Guijo de Ayuso' en término de Trujillo, que quiere comprarles Fernando de Vargas.-Consejo.

http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/1604004?nm

Y algo sobre Dom8ngo Medina

Nº 3,R.2. 1556-1557.
El fiscal contra Domingo de Medina y Pedro de Monguía, alcalde ordinario y procurador del pueblo de Guayangareo en la jurisdicción de Michoacán, sobre haber injuriado al alcalde mayor de dicha ciudad. 1 pieza.

Un abrazo,
Rick

Comentario

Hola Eric,

Creo que tienes razón cuando escribes:

“podría ser que quien hizo la paleografía entendió Pedro vez de D° o J° o algún otro?”.

Lo que si sabemos es que Juan Pantoja no Es hijo de Gonzalo Pantoja y Elvira Portocarrero. Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero Y Juana Merlo Toledo tambien no son padres de los hermanos Juan Pantoja, Pedro Pantoja, y Gonzalo Pantoja. Estos tres hermanos son Hijos de Gonzalo Pantoja y Juana Merlo Ulloa. El Gonzalo Pantoja que esta casado con Juana Merlo Ulloa Es primo del señor de Mocejon. En 1700’s cuando organizaron muchas de las actas que se habían juntado por un pleito sobre una herencia hicieron muchos errores en leer y copiar los documentos.

En la familia cercana hubo tres “Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero” y dos de ellos se casaron con Juana Merlo. Una Juana era Juana Merlo Ulloa y la otra era Juana Merlo Toledo, la primera tía abuela de la segunda. La segunda Juana Merlo (Merlo Toledo) era nieta del hermano de la primera Juana Merlo.(Merlo Ulloa.)

Y tambien prima de Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero es la abuela de Elvira Alvarez Mendoza por que ella tambien desciende de una linea de los Pantoja.

Comentario

Dear Erik,

I had set aside my Pantoja research and directed my attention to other projects in the past couple of years. Your post on Bernardina’s parents and grandparents woke Up this area of research for me. I went back and pulled out my records of the ancestors of this line and looked a little deeper at my resources. I was able to discover that an ancestor of the Pantojas that genealogists had claimed was the sister of a Cardenal Archbishop of Toledo was actually his illegitimate daughter. I have also been able to trace this line all the way back to Conde Fernan Gonzalez over a thousand years ago. I was also able to connect an ancestral line of Elvira Alvarez Mendoza to her husband, Juan de Pantoja, so they are distant cousins twice through their Pantoja ancestry. The ancestral line they share is made up of eight families that intermarried over and over again over many centuries during the Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula. These Toledan families, “linajes mozárabes de Toledo“ were Catholics, and not recent converts, but there are clear signs of Arabic and Jewish ancestries as they had ancestors that were officials that Administered the Arabic and Jewish sections of Toledo. The government of Toledo and other cities under Alfonso VII were managed with ethnic considerations. The Alvarez de Toledo family also descended from these “ ocho linajes mozárabes de Toledo.” There are many church records identifying donations by the ancestors of the Pantojas so their lineage can be tracked by the donations. The family made many large contributions of land and money to set up a monastery. There are other records of the ancestral line that show them in service of the kings and queens.

Thanks again for your big find on Bernardina’s parents. Bernardina’s parents had been the weak link in the Pantoja line.
A big hug,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Estimado Eric,

Te pido un gran favor, me puedes decir que dice el testamento de Juan Pantoja, el cual testó en Medellín el 14 de Noviembre de 1482, o por lo menos decirme que dice sobre su familia.

Gracias,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Estimado Rick,

Con mucho gusto. Lo reviso y extraigo esa información. Me llama la atención que este Juan de Pantoja, sobrino de Pedro de Pantoja (Página 12) y esposo de Catalina de Medina sea el mismo que fue Conquistador en Colima, así lo dicen en las páginas 2 y 4. La razón por la cual me llama la atención es que supuestamente fue hijo de Pedro de Pantoja y de Catalina Rodríguez como alguna vez lo comentamos pero podría ser que quien hizo la paleografía entendió Pedro vez de D° o J° o algún otro?

También cabría la posibilidad que Catalina Rodríguez fuera de los Rodríguez de Ulloa también de Medellín, emparentados más atrás con los Ulloa Carvajal?

Este documento también parece de interés "Seguro a favor de Pedro de Pantoja y de Baltasar de Mendoza, vecinos de Cáceres; de Alfonso Durán, vecino de Medellín y de Alvaro de Mendoza, que se recelan del conde de Medellín. 1488" Sobretodo por la referencia al Conde Rodrigo Portocarrero Monroy cuya conexión con los Pantoja ya la tenías. Nuestros antepasados andan por ahí. Entre esas familias está el hilo.

Por cierto, la vida de Domingo de Medina me pareció sumamente interesante, a todas luces fue un gran personaje.

Un abrazo,

Comentario

Elvira Alvarez Mendoza’s ancestors brings us back to the Rodriguez Osorio Villalobos ancestors of the Reynoso family.

Another daughter of Alfónso Durán Mendoza and Cecilia Aldonza Vázquez de Sandoval by the name of Maria Sandoval married Alonso Monroy, a cousin of Gonzalo Pantoja Portocarrero.

Saludos,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

I am not having any luck finding the wife of Domingo de Medina. I did find a son named “ Alejo Enríquez de Medina,”.
I found this online : https://valentincasco.blogspot.com/2016/11/p-margin-bottom-0.html

“DOMINGO DE MEDINA

Valentín Casco y Fernández
Investigador

Natural de Guareña, pasó a México en 1524 y visitó de nuevo España en 1526, enviado por Hernán Cortés a ver a Su Magestad.

Veamos lo que él mismo nos cuenta, muchos años después:

“Que es vecino de Mechoacán y natural de Garuena (Guareña), tierra de Medellín, e hijo legítimo de Diego González Serrano e de Ana Hernández Zambrana; e que a veynte y quatro años que pasó a esta Nueva Spaña, y que fué con el Marqués en servicio de Su Magestad a Guacaquaico y Honduras, por lo qual le fué encomendado la mytad del pueblo de Taucitaro, de que al presente se sirve, ques muy pobre y de menos provecho, y después con Vuestra Señoría Ilustrísima en la húltima pacificación de la Nueva Galizia (año 1541); y ques casado y tiene hijos e una hija casada, y su casa poblada, y que fue a Spaña, por mandado del Marqués a dar rrelación a Su Magestad de la tierra, y después con el bachiller Ortega; que fué por visitador de las provincias de Mechoacán, y por Capitán de ciertos pueblos que se avían rrelevado, todo a su costa”
Consta que era todavía vecino de la Puebla en 1547, casado y con hijos.

Pasajeros naturales de Guareña, que pasaron a las Indias.“

Comentario

5)Juan Pantoja and Elvira Alvarez Mendoza (daughter of Alfónso Durán Mendoza y de Cecilia Aldonza Vázquez de Sandoval.)
6)
7.) Juan Pantoja and Catalina Medina (daughter of Domingo Medina)
8.) Bernardina Mendoza Pantoja Ulloa (born about 1533) and Gonzalo Nuñez de Sotomayor
9). Juana Nuñez de Sotomayor( born about 1555) and Diego Ochoa de Garibay
10). Francisca Ochoa Soto. (born about1593) and married on 27/Nov/1613 to Juan de la Mora y Mendoza

Comentario

Great find Erik,

The information of Alfón Durán y de Aldonza Vázquez de Sandoval leads us to Alfónso Durán Mendoza and Cecilia Aldonza Vázquez de Sandoval.

Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza and Aldonza Lopez de Ayala are the parents of Gonzalo Duran de Mendoza. This Gonzalo and Isabel Sanchez de Badajoz are the parents of Alfonso Duran Mendoza.

Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza and Aldonza Lopez de Ayala‘S ancestries are well documented.

Cecilia Aldonza Vázquez de Sandoval is the daughter of Pedro Ruiz de Sandoval

This information on the ancestry of Alfonso Duran Mendoza was from Jose Luis Ordonez’s research.

Elvira Álvarez de Mendoza Gets the “Elvira Alvarez” name from Gonzalo de Duran’s Maternal grandmother, “Elvira Alvarez”.
This maternal grandmother of Gonzalo De Duran Mendoza also was named after her grandmother “ Elvira Alvarez Osorio”

Conquistador Domingo Medina is the son of Diego González Serrano and Ana Hernández Zambrano. Domingo Medina is from Guareña, Badajoz, Estremadura.

This find also shows a common ancestor to the Temino de Velasco Banuelos Family.

Thanks again Erik for your work and for sharing,
Once again, Great Find!
Un abraso,
Rick A. Ricci

Birth registration term "enero proxima pasado"

Hello

I have seen the term "enero proxima pasado" on a birth registration. Date of registration is February in 1911, date of birth is 29 January. 

AI says the term indicates that the birth was in January of the year before (that would be in 1910). However, I am not sure AI is correct. Anyone else ever interpret this term/phrase?

The birth registration itself is from Guanajuato which is off-topic, but the issue is one that could show up in records from Jalisco and Zacatecas - which share a border with Guanajuato - and Aguascalientes. (One branch of the family in question - Araiza - may have come originally from Jalisco.) 

Best regards

Denise Fastrup

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello Austin

Thank you for your quick response. I have a birth record for a baby born in 1910 (with the phrase enero proximo pasado) and a death record for a girl who died in May1911 at age 1 yr 1 month. Trying to see if could be the same individual. Bit of a mystery! Parents names are the same and the ages too.

Thanks again!

Denise

Comentario

Hello Denise,

The expression "próximo pasado" is used to refer to the immediately preceding day, week, month, or year. In your example the birth date would be 29 Jan 1911.

Un cordial saludo.

Austin Pérez

Phrase in death record

Has anyone seen this phrase in a death record before: deja libre de matrimonio a (persons name). I'm curious to why it doesn't say, viudo or fue casado, etc... Does this mean this couple was not married?

Comentarios

Comentario

Not necessarily. It was probably just a legal formality, in case the spouse wanted to remarry. Coincidentally, I was just transcribing a marriage investigation that got snagged, because the husband was from Spain, and had been married previously, and he needed to provide proof that he was "libre de matrimonio," and had unfortunately lost a signed affidavit from his home parish, confirming his first wife's death. 

Have you found the couple's marriage record? Another way to see whether they were legitimately married is to look at the baptism/birth records, and see if it says the child was legitimate.

Saludos!

Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

Thank you Manny. The husband was married prior (I found that marriage record), but I have not found his first wife's death record just yet, nor his second marriage record. I pinned both dates (death and second marriage) down to a three year span. I found his children with his second wife listed as legitimate as the same with his first wife. I will keep searching for the missing records.

Cynthia

Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad d

Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del siglo XVI.

Se desprendían desde Guadalajara hacia Teocaltiche., de ahí hacia Jalostotitlan, Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, San Juan de los Lagos, Mirandilla, Valle de Guadalupe, Tepatitlán y Guadalajara de nuevo.

Comentarios

Comentario

It is inaccurate to say that some of these families were Italians only because they came from Genoa, not Italy. The country that we know as “Italy” did not exist in the 1500’s. I have done a tremendous amount of research looking for Carlo Lomelin’s ancestry. I don’t know anyone that has investigated this family as much as I have. Steven Francisco Hernandez has provided valuable puzzle pieces that support my research on Carlo Lomelin’s ancestors. Through private conversations, I have also provided Steven with information about a treasure trove of Lomelin documents that I have found proving the Genoese ancestors. I asked Steven to not disclose all of the information that I had shared with him until I published my book. Steven is also correct that Guido Lavezzari comes from another Genoese family as primary source records also identify his paternal ancestors as Genoese. Steven is also correct that the Espinoza surname was originally Spinola and that they had its origins in Genoa. The surname Lomellini went through changes as the family branches out to Spain, Portugal, and England. The Lomellini became Lomelin in Spain, Lomelino in Portugal, and a few different variations in England. Carlo Lomelin and Luis Lomelin left many descendants in Los Altos de Jalisco.   Carlo and Luis Lomelin were said by family to be brothers, but I am not sure if the Luis Lomelin in Mexico is his brother or his uncle, as his father also had an brother named Luciano (Luis) Lomelin.  Carlo (Carlos) Lomelin did have a brother named Luciano (Luis) Lomelin.   Carlo also had an uncle named Luciano (Luis) Lomelin. There were many siblings in this family. Another brother of Carlo Lomelin handled his affairs when he passed away.   The Carlos Lomelin that is my ancestor is not the same CarLo Lomellini that is the son of Porzia (Porchia). That Carlo Lomelini that is the son of Porzia is a fourth cousin. Spanish “Lomelin” surname became Lomeli in Los Altos De Jalisco, and that was just relatively recently, as my wife’s maternal grandfather stated that he originally signed his name Lomelin before his children were born. His children were the first in the family to not have the “n” at the end of the surname. There are many primary sources showing the presence of “Italians” on the Iberian Peninsula. This is a fact that is proven without much research, so I don’t know why anyone that is a researcher would deny where these families came from. In fact, parts of what we now consider Italy had closer affiliation at different times to Aragon and Castilla (which were also separate kingdoms) than some other “Italian City-States”. 
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Mr. Ricci,

Thank you for the incredible wealth of information. I was considering shelving my research for a few months, until I pushed myself to research a bit more, few minutes here and there. I came across this golden nugget and I am going to push on. Thank you. I stem from Lomeli/Lomelin/Lomellini. Although I am stuck on Onofre Lomelin ( -1759) married to Angela Iniguez/Yniguez. They married on or about 2/13/1754...
Looking forward to buying your book! Namaste.

Comentario

Hello Laura,

Onofre Lomelin Nuñez married Angela de Jesus Yniguez on 13/Feb/1754 in Tepatitlan, Jalisco.   Onofre Lomelin is originally from the “puesto de Palmarejo”.  Angela de Jesus is the daughter of Blas Yniguez and Margarita Gonzales.  Onofre’s father is not named in the marriage record, but that doesn’t mean that it is a dead end.  The marriage record of one of my wife’s Lomeli ancestror’s father wasn’t named in the marriage record, but by digging deeper I was able to discover his name and ancestry.  

Maria Nuñez is the daughter of Josepha Trejo.  I believe that that Maria Nuñez’s father is Juan Nunez.    Juan Nunez and Josefa Trejo had children born in Cuquio Jalisco.

Marriage record : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KMSZ-JM?lang=en      Page 181


Juan Nuñez Josepha Trejo married on 16/Jan/1713 in Cuquío, Jalisco

Juan is the son of Andres Nuñez and Josepha Ximenez

Maria Josefa is the daughter of Salvador de Trejo and Michaela Geronima

Good luck in your research,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Estimado señor Vicente de San Miguel

Dándole por mi parte la bienvenida a este foro no puedo dejar pasar la ocasión para informarle que si la persona a que usted se refiere llamada Steven es nuestro primo (de todos los alteños) Steven Francisco Hernández, he de decirle que es un investigador serio como el que más, riguroso, generoso y exhaustivo en sus publicaciones y que puede usted tomar preferentemente cualquier publicación que él firme frente a la de prácticamente cualquier otro autor.

Por lo demás, sobre los apellidos que usted enlista podrá usted con sus propios ojos recorrer el copioso número de investigaciones que aquí están publicadas y que se han perfeccionado con la colaboración de valiosos y generosos investigadores.

Comentario

Hola a todos:

Sería recomendable leer algo sobre la historia de la península ibérica durante el siglo XV para darse cuenta de que los reyes de Castilla tuvieron tratos comerciales con los genoveses con motivo de la construcción de barcos genoveses que eran vendidos a los castellanos, así como de otras mercancías (brocados, tafetanes, zapatos de lujo).

También se dio la circunstancia de que los reyes dejaron de acudir a los prestamistas judíos y comenzaron a recurrir a los préstamos de los patricios genoveses, esto motivó que ramas de las casas patricias de Génova se establecieran posteriormente en Sevilla, en donde incluso existe la calle de los Genoveses, los recién llegados casaron con mujeres castellanas y realizaron empresas mercantiles muy variadas. Dentro de las familias que realizaron préstamos se encuentra la familia Centurión que luego recibió títulos nobiliarios en compensación por las deudas, por ejemplo el Señorío de Monesterio y el condado de Estepa.

Hay muchos genoveses que se fueron a Sevilla y a otras ciudades de la actual España: Centurión, Negro, Calvo, Spínola, Doria, Lomelin, Boccanegra, Grimaldi o Grimaldo.

El pueblo de Santa María de Lomello aún existe en Lombardía, así que afirmar que son moros es un poco aventurado, en mi opinión personal se trata de personas de orígen lombardo (de la actual Alemania) que pasaron a Lombardía al invadir dichos lombardos el Imperio Romano y que posteriormente pasaron a Génova y de allí a Sevilla y otras ciudades.

Sobre la familia Ramírez he realizado un estudio de las ramas que pasaron a Nueva España, una gran parte pertenece al contingente de la familia Ramírez de Coy que fueron traídos con propósitos de expansión comercial en la segunda mitad del siglo XVI, la mayor parte venía de Cartaya o Lepe Huelva, aunque la familia no es de esos lugares.

Saludos

Marcelina

Comentario

Hola Vale ,como esta? ojala que bien. Mi antepasado era Carlos Lomellini y era de genoa,Italia como era moro ? > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> From: castrosivicente@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:41:17 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del> > > Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del siglo XVI.> > Se desprendían desde Guadalajara hacia Teocaltiche., de ahí hacia Jalostotitlan, Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, San Juan de los Lagos, Mirandilla, Valle de Guadalupe, Tepatitlán y Guadalajara de nuevo.> > De estas mismas ramas, hubo desplazamientos hacia León (familia Ulloa y Parada Aguilar), Silao, Celaya e Irapuato (familia Martín), Gto.> De Jalostotitlán, salió la familia Garza para fundar la ciudad de Monterrey, NL.> (Ordenanzas de colonización de 1573).> > TRONCOS FAMILIARES PRINCIPALES> > 1. Lomelí, Gallo, González (provenientes de Yahualica).> 2. Padilla, Reynoso.> 3. Issasi, Serrano, Sanromán, Ortiz de Parada, Hermosillo.> 4. Pérez, Franco, Padilla, Jiménez, Reynoso, González> 5. Barba, González.> > Fuente: Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco. Pág. 87, citado por Gtz, Gtz J.A. 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA.> > Escribo esto, porque una persona de nombre Steven, asegura equivocadamente que los apellidos Lomelín, Isassi, Lavezares y Sigala, provienen de italianos que se asentaron en Los Altos, lo cual es inexacto.> Lomelín es de origen moro, asentado en Granada y Córdoba al Sur de España. Ya en 1624 un portador de este apellido era Don Pedro Lomelín.> Isassi es de origen totalmente vasco, siendo uno de sus representantes don Francisco Isassi de Olavarría.> Lavezares, proviene de la provincia de Vizcaya, donde destaca el militar Guido de Lavezares> Sigala proviene de Palma de Mallorca y su escudo consta de un águila de plata con las patas y garras puestas hacia arriba en situación de ataque.> > Saludos, Vicente de San Miguel.> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
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Comentario

Qualcuno ha detto., Lomelín (cognome di Steven) arribato di Genova a Madrid.
Ma, Lomellini e quallcosa diverso di Lomelín. E vero, Lomellini (cognome dil suo nonno) si posta a Carmagnola, viccino a Torino reggione di Piamonte.

Alguien ha dicho Lomelín (apellido de Steven)., llegó de Génova a Madrid.
Pero Lomellini es algo distinto a Lomelín. Es cierto, Lomellini se ubica en la ciudad de Carmagnola cerca de Turín Norte de Italia, donde hasta hay un palacio de una familia de ese apellido. A menudo los inmigrantes o las autoridades del país de destino, escribían mal algunos datos, por ignorancia o premura del tiempo.
La reina Isabel tuvo un confesor de apellido Lomellini, que también se cita en la genealogía de algunos zacatecanos. Entre 1532 y 1560 había en Perú alrededor de 50 italianos, provenientes de Liguria.
Saludos. Viaje a la tierra de sus antepasados si no la conoce aún. No se va arrepentir. Yo viví un tiempo en Monteccattini, entre Florencia y Pisa. Hay mucho que ver. Vicente de San Miguel.

> From: chilerey@msn.com> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:04:16 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas> > > Hola Vale ,como esta? ojala que bien. Mi antepasado era Carlos Lomellini y era de genoa,Italia como era moro ? > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> From: castrosivicente@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:41:17 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del> > > Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del siglo XVI.> > Se desprendían desde Guadalajara hacia Teocaltiche., de ahí hacia Jalostotitlan, Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, San Juan de los Lagos, Mirandilla, Valle de Guadalupe, Tepatitlán y Guadalajara de nuevo.> > De estas mismas ramas, hubo desplazamientos hacia León (familia Ulloa y Parada Aguilar), Silao, Celaya e Irapuato (familia Martín), Gto.> De Jalostotitlán, salió la familia Garza para fundar la ciudad de Monterrey, NL.> (Ordenanzas de colonización de 1573).> > TRONCOS FAMILIARES PRINCIPALES> > 1. Lomelí, Gallo, González (provenientes de Yahualica).> 2. Padilla, Reynoso.> 3. Issasi, Serrano, Sanromán, Ortiz de Parada, Hermosillo.> 4. Pérez, Franco, Padilla, Jiménez, Reynoso, González> 5. Barba, González.> > Fuente: Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco. Pág. 87, citado por Gtz, Gtz J.A. 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA.> > Escribo esto, porque una persona de nombre Steven, asegura equivocadamente que los apellidos Lomelín, Isassi, Lavezares y Sigala, provienen de italianos que se asentaron en Los Altos, lo cual es inexacto.> Lomelín es de origen moro, asentado en Granada y Córdoba al Sur de España. Ya en 1624 un portador de este apellido era Don Pedro Lomelín.> Isassi es de origen totalmente vasco, siendo uno de sus representantes don Francisco Isassi de Olavarría.> Lavezares, proviene de la provincia de Vizcaya, donde destaca el militar Guido de Lavezares> Sigala proviene de Palma de Mallorca y su escudo consta de un águila de plata con las patas y garras puestas hacia arriba en situación de ataque.> > Saludos, Vicente de San Miguel.> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> _________________________________________________________________> Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back!> http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=intro…; -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
_________________________________________________________________
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Comentario

Desafortunadamente, el libro del Maestro Jose Antonio Gutierrez Gutierrez, Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco (Los Altos de Jalisco). 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA está plagado de errores, yo tengo en mi poder los últimos tres ejemplares antes de que la editorial los destruyera. Comenzando desde sus primeras páginas con la extension territorial de los municipios de los Altos, hasta lo de algunas familias.
El amigo de CONACULTA que me consiguió esos libros que ya no estaban en catálogo, me informó que la editorial se negó a realizar una segunda edicion, debido a los problemas que les generó la cantidad de errores que contiene el libro.
Desde mi particular punto de vista, el principal problema de los libros del Dr. Gutierrez es su acentuado localismo, para él Jalos es practicamente el centro del universo, el Edén de donde partieron Adán y Eva a poblar el mundo, lo cual definitivamente no es cierto. Tengo el gusto de conocer al Dr. Gutierrez, al igual que otros historiadores y genealogistas regionales como a Don Trino Padilla, también de Jalos, Don Mariano Gonzalez Leal, Amando R. de Leon de San Juan, Rodolfo Hernandez de la Chona,etc. y también difieren de los puntos de vista y de mucha de la informacion contenida en el libro "Los altos de Jalisco" del Dr. Gutiérrez. Uno de los hechos es que el apellido Garza vino del Norte de la Republica y él sostiene que de Jalos se fueron a fundar Monterrey ¿¿¿??? Tampoco menciona entre las primeras familias a los Ramirez que hasta la fecha ocupan casi la tercera parte del directorio telefonico de Jalos, en fin, seria una lista larguísima de imprecisiones.
Soy un seguidor de la obra del Dr. Gutierrez, tengo todos sus libros y para mí, es una lástima que el cúmulo de conocimientos con que cuenta este profesor emérito de la Universidad de Aguascalientes, se pierda ante una visión local excesiva, teniendo la oportunidad, como pocos, de ofrecer una verdadera historia Alteña.
Saludos cordiales,

Juan Jose Ramirez
San Juan de los Lagos
vicente castro sifuentes wrote:
Qualcuno ha detto., Lomelín (cognome di Steven) arribato di Genova a Madrid.
Ma, Lomellini e quallcosa diverso di Lomelín. E vero, Lomellini (cognome dil suo nonno) si posta a Carmagnola, viccino a Torino reggione di Piamonte.

Alguien ha dicho Lomelín (apellido de Steven)., llegó de Génova a Madrid.
Pero Lomellini es algo distinto a Lomelín. Es cierto, Lomellini se ubica en la ciudad de Carmagnola cerca de Turín Norte de Italia, donde hasta hay un palacio de una familia de ese apellido. A menudo los inmigrantes o las autoridades del país de destino, escribían mal algunos datos, por ignorancia o premura del tiempo.
La reina Isabel tuvo un confesor de apellido Lomellini, que también se cita en la genealogía de algunos zacatecanos. Entre 1532 y 1560 había en Perú alrededor de 50 italianos, provenientes de Liguria.
Saludos. Viaje a la tierra de sus antepasados si no la conoce aún. No se va arrepentir. Yo viví un tiempo en Monteccattini, entre Florencia y Pisa. Hay mucho que ver. Vicente de San Miguel.

> From: chilerey@msn.com> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:04:16 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas> > > Hola Vale ,como esta? ojala que bien. Mi antepasado era Carlos Lomellini y era de genoa,Italia como era moro ? > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> From: castrosivicente@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:41:17 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del> > > Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del siglo XVI.> > Se desprendían desde Guadalajara hacia Teocaltiche., de ahí hacia Jalostotitlan, Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, San Juan de los Lagos, Mirandilla, Valle de Guadalupe, Tepatitlán y Guadalajara de nuevo.> > De estas mismas ramas, hubo
desplazamientos hacia León (familia Ulloa y Parada Aguilar), Silao, Celaya e Irapuato (familia Martín), Gto.> De Jalostotitlán, salió la familia Garza para fundar la ciudad de Monterrey, NL.> (Ordenanzas de colonización de 1573).> > TRONCOS FAMILIARES PRINCIPALES> > 1. Lomelí, Gallo, González (provenientes de Yahualica).> 2. Padilla, Reynoso.> 3. Issasi, Serrano, Sanromán, Ortiz de Parada, Hermosillo.> 4. Pérez, Franco, Padilla, Jiménez, Reynoso, González> 5. Barba, González.> > Fuente: Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco. Pág. 87, citado por Gtz, Gtz J.A. 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA.> > Escribo esto, porque una persona de nombre Steven, asegura equivocadamente que los apellidos Lomelín, Isassi, Lavezares y Sigala, provienen de italianos que se asentaron en Los Altos, lo cual es inexacto.> Lomelín es de origen moro, asentado en Granada y Córdoba al Sur de España. Ya en 1624 un portador de este apellido era Don Pedro Lomelín.> Isassi es de origen totalmente
vasco, siendo uno de sus representantes don Francisco Isassi de Olavarría.> Lavezares, proviene de la provincia de Vizcaya, donde destaca el militar Guido de Lavezares> Sigala proviene de Palma de Mallorca y su escudo consta de un águila de plata con las patas y garras puestas hacia arriba en situación de ataque.> > Saludos, Vicente de San Miguel.> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> _________________________________________________________________> Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back!> http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=intro…; -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:>
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
_________________________________________________________________
Juega y gana, tenemos 3 Xbox a la semana.
http://club.prodigymsn.com/

Comentario

Una disculpa por entrar en esta discusión ya que también yo soy de Jalostotitlán. El Dr. José Antonio Gutiérrez Gutiérrez incluye un mapa y un pequeño texto en la página 144 de su libro "Los Altos de Jalisco" (Conaculta, 1991) y dice este texto a la letra "incluso de Jalostotitlán salió la familia Garza para fundar Monterrey" y su fuente que es incompleta sólo dice: "Tomado de: Sociedad y Conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco, p. 87. El Dr. José Antonio se está refiriendo al libro "El Movimiento Cristero: Sociedad y Conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco" de José Díaz Estrella, Román Rodríguez Cruz y Andrés Fábregas escrito en 1979, es decir 12 años antes de que lo citara el Dr. José Antonio Gutiérrez. Es de lamentar que un estudioso como el Dr. Gutiérrez no cite bien, sino sólo partes del nombre del libro. Es más en su bibliografía no nombra a los tres autores del libro de 1979, José Díaz Estrella, Román Rodríguez Cruz y Andrés Fábregas. Sé que alguno de ellos se ha quejado amargamente porque después de dedicar un larguísimo trabajo genealógico para llegar a ese descubrimiento, no se le cita adecuadamente. Algo más, el Dr. Gutiérrez no escribió el libro "Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco (Los Altos de Jalisco)". 1989. Como se asienta más arriba. La autoría de este libro pertenece a José Díaz Estrella, Román Rodríguez Cruz y Andrés Fábregas. Todo el malentendido proviene de una cita defectuosa del Dr. Gutiérrez. Aún más en 2001, el Dr. Gutiérrez volvió a incluir el mismo mapa repitiendo su error anterior en "Jalostotitlán a través de los siglos" Volumen Primero, p. 117. Si hacemos historia, hagámosla bien. No se vale no citar adecuadamente nuestras fuentes.

Comentario

Desafortunadamente, el libro del Maestro Jose Antonio Gutierrez Gutierrez, Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco (Los Altos de Jalisco). 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA está plagado de errores, yo tengo en mi poder los últimos tres ejemplares antes de que la editorial los destruyera. Comenzando desde sus primeras páginas con la extension territorial de los municipios de los Altos, hasta lo de algunas familias.
El amigo de CONACULTA que me consiguió esos libros que ya no estaban en catálogo, me informó que la editorial se negó a realizar una segunda edicion, debido a los problemas que les generó la cantidad de errores que contiene el libro.
Desde mi particular punto de vista, el principal problema de los libros del Dr. Gutierrez es su acentuado localismo, para él Jalos es practicamente el centro del universo, el Edén de donde partieron Adán y Eva a poblar el mundo, lo cual definitivamente no es cierto. Tengo el gusto de conocer al Dr. Gutierrez, al igual que otros historiadores y genealogistas regionales como a Don Trino Padilla, también de Jalos, Don Mariano Gonzalez Leal, Amando R. de Leon de San Juan, Rodolfo Hernandez de la Chona,etc. y también difieren de los puntos de vista y de mucha de la informacion contenida en el libro "Los altos de Jalisco" del Dr. Gutiérrez. Uno de los hechos es que el apellido Garza vino del Norte de la Republica y él sostiene que de Jalos se fueron a fundar Monterrey ¿¿¿??? Tampoco menciona entre las primeras familias a los Ramirez que hasta la fecha ocupan casi la tercera parte del directorio telefonico de Jalos, en fin, seria una lista larguísima de imprecisiones.
Soy un seguidor de la obra del Dr. Gutierrez, tengo todos sus libros y para mí, es una lástima que el cúmulo de conocimientos con que cuenta este profesor emérito de la Universidad de Aguascalientes, se pierda ante una visión local excesiva, teniendo la oportunidad, como pocos, de ofrecer una verdadera historia Alteña.
Saludos cordiales,

Juan Jose Ramirez
San Juan de los Lagos
vicente castro sifuentes wrote:
Qualcuno ha detto., Lomelín (cognome di Steven) arribato di Genova a Madrid.
Ma, Lomellini e quallcosa diverso di Lomelín. E vero, Lomellini (cognome dil suo nonno) si posta a Carmagnola, viccino a Torino reggione di Piamonte.

Alguien ha dicho Lomelín (apellido de Steven)., llegó de Génova a Madrid.
Pero Lomellini es algo distinto a Lomelín. Es cierto, Lomellini se ubica en la ciudad de Carmagnola cerca de Turín Norte de Italia, donde hasta hay un palacio de una familia de ese apellido. A menudo los inmigrantes o las autoridades del país de destino, escribían mal algunos datos, por ignorancia o premura del tiempo.
La reina Isabel tuvo un confesor de apellido Lomellini, que también se cita en la genealogía de algunos zacatecanos. Entre 1532 y 1560 había en Perú alrededor de 50 italianos, provenientes de Liguria.
Saludos. Viaje a la tierra de sus antepasados si no la conoce aún. No se va arrepentir. Yo viví un tiempo en Monteccattini, entre Florencia y Pisa. Hay mucho que ver. Vicente de San Miguel.

> From: chilerey@msn.com> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:04:16 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas> > > Hola Vale ,como esta? ojala que bien. Mi antepasado era Carlos Lomellini y era de genoa,Italia como era moro ? > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> From: castrosivicente@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:41:17 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del> > > Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del siglo XVI.> > Se desprendían desde Guadalajara hacia Teocaltiche., de ahí hacia Jalostotitlan, Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, San Juan de los Lagos, Mirandilla, Valle de Guadalupe, Tepatitlán y Guadalajara de nuevo.> > De estas mismas ramas, hubo
desplazamientos hacia León (familia Ulloa y Parada Aguilar), Silao, Celaya e Irapuato (familia Martín), Gto.> De Jalostotitlán, salió la familia Garza para fundar la ciudad de Monterrey, NL.> (Ordenanzas de colonización de 1573).> > TRONCOS FAMILIARES PRINCIPALES> > 1. Lomelí, Gallo, González (provenientes de Yahualica).> 2. Padilla, Reynoso.> 3. Issasi, Serrano, Sanromán, Ortiz de Parada, Hermosillo.> 4. Pérez, Franco, Padilla, Jiménez, Reynoso, González> 5. Barba, González.> > Fuente: Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco. Pág. 87, citado por Gtz, Gtz J.A. 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA.> > Escribo esto, porque una persona de nombre Steven, asegura equivocadamente que los apellidos Lomelín, Isassi, Lavezares y Sigala, provienen de italianos que se asentaron en Los Altos, lo cual es inexacto.> Lomelín es de origen moro, asentado en Granada y Córdoba al Sur de España. Ya en 1624 un portador de este apellido era Don Pedro Lomelín.> Isassi es de origen totalmente
vasco, siendo uno de sus representantes don Francisco Isassi de Olavarría.> Lavezares, proviene de la provincia de Vizcaya, donde destaca el militar Guido de Lavezares> Sigala proviene de Palma de Mallorca y su escudo consta de un águila de plata con las patas y garras puestas hacia arriba en situación de ataque.> > Saludos, Vicente de San Miguel.> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> _________________________________________________________________> Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back!> http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=intro…; -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:>
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
_________________________________________________________________
Juega y gana, tenemos 3 Xbox a la semana.
http://club.prodigymsn.com/

Comentario

La obra del Dr., J.A. Gutiérrez Gutiérrez.
Espero que se encuentre muy bien.
A pesar de sus posibles deficiencias no podemos desacreditar la obra del Dr. Gutiérrez, ni mucho menos borrarla de un plumazo. Al menos hasta no tener fuentes más fidedignas a las cuales recurrir. Sobre una balanza, tiene más cosas positivas que negativas. Recordemos que los libros casi siempre son copias de otros libros y que contienen cierto grado de ficción. Validar objetivamente este libro recaería sobre expertos o eruditos.
Considerar a su terruño el centro del universo, es una característica muy arraigada en los alteños de hueso colorado. Me refería el Ingeniero Joel Ramírez Gutiérrez en la ciudad de Guadalajara. …..Yo no sé ni porqué aquí me dicen el güero, si en Tepatitlán soy el más prieto de mi familia. A veces me cuesta tanto comprender a mis paisanos, que quisiera hacerme una transfusión de pluma fuente para que mi sangre fuera azul como la de todos ellos……..
Yo quiero seguir creyendo y rescatando cosas de la obra del Dr. Gutiérrez, a menos que usted me dé una mejor opción de autores o fuente diferentes. Además es importante que mucha más gente de Los Altos la conozca para que la juzgue.
Quizás existe un error de redacción,….decir ir a fundar la ciudad de Monterrey no significa cargar con tal encomienda, sino hacerse presente y participar en tal evento…. Ya se sabe que el mérito recae sobre Don Diego de Montemayor, el 20 de septiembre de 1596, acompañado de 12 familias la mayoría de origen jadeo portugués.
Don Marcos Alonso De La Garza y Arcón quien nació en Huelva en 1540, prácticamente al mismo tiempo que Montemayor y Luis Carbajal, fue quien se asentó en Monterrey junto con su apellido. Las fechas coinciden, y no es descabellado pensar que un ramal de la familia Garza asentada en Jalos pudiera haber ido a reunirse con sus anteriores coetáneos asentados en el Norte y con mejor posición. Y no al revés, del Norte al Occidente, sería más difícil o carente de sentido. A usted le sería más factible investigar si es que radica en la región.
Veo su crítica muy centrada y le podemos dar un sentido constructivo.
Saludos a la chaparrita de San Juan, Vicente de San Miguel

> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:58:48 -0700> From: jjraiba@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: RE: Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las o> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org; research@nuestrosranchos.org> > Desafortunadamente, el libro del Maestro Jose Antonio Gutierrez Gutierrez, Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco (Los Altos de Jalisco). 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA está plagado de errores, yo tengo en mi poder los últimos tres ejemplares antes de que la editorial los destruyera. Comenzando desde sus primeras páginas con la extension territorial de los municipios de los Altos, hasta lo de algunas familias.> El amigo de CONACULTA que me consiguió esos libros que ya no estaban en catálogo, me informó que la editorial se negó a realizar una segunda edicion, debido a los problemas que les generó la cantidad de errores que contiene el libro. > Desde mi particular punto de vista, el principal problema de los libros del Dr. Gutierrez es su acentuado localismo, para él Jalos es practicamente el centro del universo, el Edén de donde partieron Adán y Eva a poblar el mundo, lo cual definitivamente no es cierto. Tengo el gusto de conocer al Dr. Gutierrez, al igual que otros historiadores y genealogistas regionales como a Don Trino Padilla, también de Jalos, Don Mariano Gonzalez Leal, Amando R. de Leon de San Juan, Rodolfo Hernandez de la Chona,etc. y también difieren de los puntos de vista y de mucha de la informacion contenida en el libro "Los altos de Jalisco" del Dr. Gutiérrez. Uno de los hechos es que el apellido Garza vino del Norte de la Republica y él sostiene que de Jalos se fueron a fundar Monterrey ¿¿¿??? Tampoco menciona entre las primeras familias a los Ramirez que hasta la fecha ocupan casi la tercera parte del directorio telefonico de Jalos, en fin, seria una lista larguísima de imprecisiones.> Soy un seguidor de la obra del Dr. Gutierrez, tengo todos sus libros y para mí, es una lástima que el cúmulo de conocimientos con que cuenta este profesor emérito de la Universidad de Aguascalientes, se pierda ante una visión local excesiva, teniendo la oportunidad, como pocos, de ofrecer una verdadera historia Alteña.> Saludos cordiales,> > Juan Jose Ramirez> San Juan de los Lagos> vicente castro sifuentes wrote:> Qualcuno ha detto., Lomelín (cognome di Steven) arribato di Genova a Madrid.> Ma, Lomellini e quallcosa diverso di Lomelín. E vero, Lomellini (cognome dil suo nonno) si posta a Carmagnola, viccino a Torino reggione di Piamonte.> > Alguien ha dicho Lomelín (apellido de Steven)., llegó de Génova a Madrid.> Pero Lomellini es algo distinto a Lomelín. Es cierto, Lomellini se ubica en la ciudad de Carmagnola cerca de Turín Norte de Italia, donde hasta hay un palacio de una familia de ese apellido. A menudo los inmigrantes o las autoridades del país de destino, escribían mal algunos datos, por ignorancia o premura del tiempo.> La reina Isabel tuvo un confesor de apellido Lomellini, que también se cita en la genealogía de algunos zacatecanos. Entre 1532 y 1560 había en Perú alrededor de 50 italianos, provenientes de Liguria.> Saludos. Viaje a la tierra de sus antepasados si no la conoce aún. No se va arrepentir. Yo viví un tiempo en Monteccattini, entre Florencia y Pisa. Hay mucho que ver. Vicente de San Miguel.> > > From: chilerey@msn.com> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:04:16 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas> > > Hola Vale ,como esta? ojala que bien. Mi antepasado era Carlos Lomellini y era de genoa,Italia como era moro ? > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> From: castrosivicente@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:41:17 -0700> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del> > > Genealogía de la expansión de las familias troncales que poblaron las orillas orientales y Norte de Los Altos. Segunda mitad del siglo XVI.> > Se desprendían desde Guadalajara hacia Teocaltiche., de ahí hacia Jalostotitlan, Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, San Juan de los Lagos, Mirandilla, Valle de Guadalupe, Tepatitlán y Guadalajara de nuevo.> > De estas mismas ramas, hubo> desplazamientos hacia León (familia Ulloa y Parada Aguilar), Silao, Celaya e Irapuato (familia Martín), Gto.> De Jalostotitlán, salió la familia Garza para fundar la ciudad de Monterrey, NL.> (Ordenanzas de colonización de 1573).> > TRONCOS FAMILIARES PRINCIPALES> > 1. Lomelí, Gallo, González (provenientes de Yahualica).> 2. Padilla, Reynoso.> 3. Issasi, Serrano, Sanromán, Ortiz de Parada, Hermosillo.> 4. Pérez, Franco, Padilla, Jiménez, Reynoso, González> 5. Barba, González.> > Fuente: Sociedad y conflicto en los Altos de Jalisco. Pág. 87, citado por Gtz, Gtz J.A. 1989. Colección Regiones. CONACULTA.> > Escribo esto, porque una persona de nombre Steven, asegura equivocadamente que los apellidos Lomelín, Isassi, Lavezares y Sigala, provienen de italianos que se asentaron en Los Altos, lo cual es inexacto.> Lomelín es de origen moro, asentado en Granada y Córdoba al Sur de España. Ya en 1624 un portador de este apellido era Don Pedro Lomelín.> Isassi es de origen totalmente> vasco, siendo uno de sus representantes don Francisco Isassi de Olavarría.> Lavezares, proviene de la provincia de Vizcaya, donde destaca el militar Guido de Lavezares> Sigala proviene de Palma de Mallorca y su escudo consta de un águila de plata con las patas y garras puestas hacia arriba en situación de ataque.> > Saludos, Vicente de San Miguel.> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> _________________________________________________________________> Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back!> http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=intro…; -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> _________________________________________________________________> Juega y gana, tenemos 3 Xbox a la semana.> http://club.prodigymsn.com/ > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> > > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
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don Juan Cristobal de Luna y Tapía: Indio and Cacique

I'm descended from don Juan Cristobal de Luna y Tapía through a few of his children. He's the purchaser (1690s) of a piece of land in Lagos de Moreno, known as Cañada de los Indios Ricos (modern Cañada de Ricos).

 Any information on the following family would be helpful: 

1st generation: don Juan Cristobal de Luna y Tapía born about 1635 cc Beatris Inés. (Probable brother or 1st cousin of don Francisco de Luna born about 1637 and died abt. 1686, married doña Ana Catarina de la Cruz). 

2nd generation:

- Miguel Jacinto de Luna y Tapía born bef. 1652 in Encinillas, Ojuelos, Jalisco. 

- Pasquala Magdalena de Luna y Tapía born before 1657 probably in Encinillas, Ojuelos, Jalisco. 

- don Patricio de Luna y Tapía born before 1666 probably in Encinillas, Ojuelos, Jalisco cc doña María de la Encarnación de Alarcon (AKA María de la Cruz). 

- Andrea de la Cruz (AKA Andrea de Luna) born before 1667 in Encinillas, Ojuelos, Jalisco. 

- Cristobal de Luna y Tapía born about 1667 in Encinillas, Ojuelos

Comentarios

Comentario

I’m sure you probably know that some IMs for Cienega de Mata during the late 1600s can be found in the Asuncion de Maria parish in Aguascalientes? If not, I see several Luna’s - all of them Indios, including an IM for Don Cristobal HL de Don Cristobal cc Beatriz Ynes. George Fulton indexed those IMs years ago, and uploaded them to the reference files here at NR. The filmrolls have since been rearranged, but the roll numbers remain the same, you’ll just have to go by the dates. You can download the PDFs here: https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18014

Also, Encinillas was historically in the parish of San Matias, Pinos, Zacatecas. While there are records for Indian baptisms dating back to the late 1600s, they are well-indexed and easily found. But the IMs go back to 1650, so try digging around in that film roll. Perhaps there’s a marriage in there, and sometimes you can find ancestors appears as testigos.

I had also indexed sacramental records done in San Matias, 1613-1647, but I just checked them, and I see no Luna’s. But if you want to check, the pdf can be downloaded here: https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24112

Good luck!

Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hello Manny,

Incredible advice. Thank you so much. I'm indebted. 

I knew some of Ciénega de Mata records were indexed through Aguascalientes but didn't know the rest. I'll follow up on everything you suggest. 

We are descended from the de Luna y Tapía family 3 (and maybe 4) different ways. So this line is important to us. 

I'll add that there is a brief write-up on don Cristobal Luna y Tapía and La Cañada de Ricos in "Lagos Indios," by Mario Gómez de Mata. I found this book online and ordered a copy. 

I was also told Gomez de Mata wrote more about this same family in another book.  If anyone has knowledge of this second book please let me know. 

Thank you again. 

Best,

Travis

Indios

Hello everyone!

Can anyone direct me to resources available in print or online, that specifically addresses the Tlaxcalan and Otomi families of Las Lagunas, Buenavista and the Pueblo de Moya?

I purchased and read Mario Gómez Mata's book, INDIOS, but it reads more as an historical narrative of the pueblos - which it is - but not as a genealogical work. 

The majority of our Indio ancestors are Tlaxcala and Otomi and from very specific families: Rhea, Hernández del Aguila, San Joseph, de Luna y Tapia, etc. 

Has anyone compiled the genealogies of the founding and early families of the Pueblos in Lagos de Moreno? 

I'm trying to document our ancestors from Moya and Buenavista, but it's like pulling teeth to trace them prior to 1660 or so, with all the surname changes. 

In one document, someone may be named Pedro de la Cruz and another, he's Pedro Hernándes, and then in a third document, he'll be called, Pedro del Aguila. It's a very tedious process, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel here if

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello, 

I hate that you took offense from a sincere request for advice when tracing the Indigenous Mexican ancestry of my family.

The title of my post was referencing Carlos Gómez Mata's book "Lagos Indios." I neglected to include the "Lagos" part in my haste.

I also used the term "Indios" when referencing my family's ancestors, because the parish records concerning them, specifically note them as such - without any national affiliation. That was the entire point of my post: determining national identity of colonial-era Indigenous ancestors beyond the casta designation: Indios. (Not referencing any modern population as such.)

On that subject, you mention that "settler colonial records refer only to Indigenous peoples as 'Indios.' " Not entirely, I've found many references to national affiliation in early settler records. In several, our ancestors are referred to as "Otomites" (Otomi). In others I've seen Indigenous people cited and identified as "Chichimeca."

I also read over my post and nowhere did I use the term "Indios" without capitalization, but thank you for the tip. I'll continue using it (except when quoting directly from source material)! 

However, my phone and tablet habitually autocorrect posts and texts, and occasionally I'll even forget to capitalize proper nouns. So, you have my prior permission to correct me upon any occasion you feel compelled to do so. (I only ask that you make all corrections in red color, so they stand out and are easily recognized for what they are. )

Again, one last time: no offense was meant in my post where I was specifically discussing my family's colonial Indigenous ancestry in Mexico.

I sincerely appreciate your reply, and would appreciate any advice you may be able to give in discovering more about our Indigenous roots since you are so committed to and knowledgeable on the matter.

Thanks again, and I look forward to hearing from you. 

Best,

Travis

 

Comentario

Hola Travis!

I know that the settler colonial records refer only to Indigenous peoples as "Indios" but this is a very offensive term for many Indigenous peoples or personas Indigenas o de pueblos originarios. Also, Indigenous law experts use the capital I for Indigenous. As we know better, we can do better. May I please ask that you refrain from using the term, "Indio" unless you are citing the language listed in a colonial record. As a person of Indigenous descent on my mother's side (Mexico) and my father's said (Cherokee), I would appreciate it if this space doesn't use offensive terminology when speaking about us. Thank you!  

Using AI: BTW I Own No Stock!!!

This is going to sound like a paid advertisement so delete right now if it gives any of you that type of flavor. I've heard that AI can assist with genealogical research and I think it really can. Now the example I've listed below was for a very simple transcription/translation but the possibilities are there. Also there is a free version but I'm used the $49/year version which gives you a limit on usage per day almost double the free version but it also gives you access to the more advanced ai versions. Basically I went to Poe.com and subscribed to the "starter" version which gives you 10,000 points to use per day (use or lose). I've understood that the below example only used a small amount of points but just use the free version for simple examples. I simply asked it to translate the uploaded document (attached below) into English and preserve the original spellings of names and got the below. For us beginners who have limited Spanish this might be the or one of the tools to use:

Tra

upload
aiExample_1.jpg (152.56 KB)

Comentarios

Comentario

Joseph,

Sounds like a pretty cool site.   Another one that is not as sophisticated, but works for me is: Transkribus

I have some very old Latin documents from England that are pretty much unreadable to me (from the 1550's).  With Transkribus, you drop your document onto their online folder, and it begins scanning (multiple passes).  When the scans have been completed, it offers you the choice of copying the transcribed document to a .PDF, .DOC, or Clipboard (as plain text).  The document scans are fairly quick, usually within a few minutes.

The thing is, once transcribed, you need to go to another free app, like "Google Translate", and convert the Latin transcription to a language you may need, in my case just plain ole English.  It is hit and miss on accuracy, but for me "something" is better then nothing (in most cases).

I only use the free version (apparently 50 free scans per month), but apparently the paid version can clean these documents up even further.

Hopefully this technology (AI) can continue to advance document interpretation, which is a major block for some researchers (such as myself) when getting back beyond the 1600's.

Lee

Ruiz de Esparza y Perez de Ornelas (Aguascalientes & Lagos de Moreno)

Estimado compañeros:

Alguien tiene mayor información sobre las siguientes personas? Todos casados en Aguascalientes y el último deberia ser en Lagos de Moreno o Teocaltiche.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello! 

Do you have more information about Sebastián Pérez de Ornelas? Maybe he is related to Juan Pérez, AKA Juan de Santoyo, (born about 1624, probably in Lagos, possibly son of Diego Pérez and an unknown daughter of María Rubio)? 

The 1669 Padron de Santa María de los Lagos lists Gerónima de Ornelas, viuda, living in the household of Juan Pérez with his widow, Antonia de Villegas, AKA Antonia de Mendoza, and his children Antonio, Angelina and Ysidro (children of Juan and Antonia go by surnames of Santoyo, Pérez, Mendoza and Villegas).

Comentario

Este mensaje se trata de Marcos Macias Valadez y María Ruiz de Esparza

Por un indice que publicó Claudia Casillas encontré a una dispensa de
cuarto grado de consanguinidad de Alejandro Macias Valadez Gutiérrez
originario del Río de Santa María y vecino de Aguascalientes en el Sauz de
los Macias con Leonor López Infante y Valdés originario y vecina de la
Mololoa. Dice que Alejandro es hijo de Juan Macias Valades y de María
Gutiérrez y que Juan es hijo de María Ruiz y que Maria Ruiz es hija de
Mariana González de Rubalcava. Bautizaron a Alejandro el 10 de Abril de
1713 en San Juan de los Lagos. Bautizaron a Juan el 20 de abril 1681 en
Lagos de Moreno y murió el 1 de septiembre de 1740 en Aguas. No he
encontrado mas datos documentados sobre la linea directa de Alejandro hasta
Mariana González de Rubalcava. Según la dispensa fue hermana de Leonor
González de Rubalcava que sabemos por otras comunicaciones que hemos tenido
que fue hija Juan González de Rubalcava y de María López y que Leonor tuvo
a Inés Pérez que casó con Basilio Valdés y tuvieron a Inés Baldés. Se que
Inés casó con Nicolás López de Aguirre e Infante de Villegas quienes
tuvieron a Leonor López Infante y Valdés, la pretensa.
La dispensa se encuentra en
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18403-63357-9?cc=1874591&wc=…

Yo suponía que la antesmencionada Maria Ruiz iba a ser la que casó con
Marcos Macias Valadez pero esos datos no van de acuerdo con los que se
encuentran en Retoños de España según la página
http://historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaciondediaz.com/macias.html que dice que
la esposa de Marcos Macias Valadez y de Orán y Vega fue hija de Nicolás de
Ulloa y de doña María Ruiz de Esparza. Según varios mensajes en NR esta
María Ruiz de Esparza fue hija de Lope Ruiz de Esparza y de Francisca Gabay
de Moctezuma.

¿Si el Juan Macias Valadez y Ruiz de la dispensa no fue hijo de Marcos
Macias Valadez entonces de quien podría haber sido hijo? ¿Que fuente haya
usado Mariano González Leal para tener a los padres de Maria Ruiz de
Esparza?

Daniel, has mencionado que María Ruiz de Esparza la hija Nicolás Márquez de
Ulloa y Maria Ruiz de Esparza casó con alguien que no fue Marcos Macias
Valadez. ¿Quien fue esa persona?

Saludos
Armando

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 1:46 PM, wrote:

> Estimado compañeros:
>
> Alguien tiene mayor información sobre las siguientes personas? Todos
> casados en Aguascalientes y el último deberia ser en Lagos de Moreno o
> Teocaltiche.
>
> María Ruiz de Esparza casada con Nicolás de Castro el 14 de mayo de 1673
> María Ruiz de Esparza casada con Marcos Macías Valadés ca. 1670
>
> María Ruiz de Esparza casada con Nicolás González el 22 de diciembre de
> 1659
>
> Sebastián Pérez de Ornelas, mi décimo bisabuelo casado Leonor González de
> Ruvalcaba hija de Juan González de Ruvalcaba y Leonor Franco de Paredes. No
> sé si este Ornelas es pariente de la misma familia quien se asentó en Los
> Altos, pero solo he visto algunas personas con el apellido Pérez de
> Ornelas, no sé su origen.
>
> Gracias,
> Daniel Méndez Camino
>

Comentario

Armando, Daniel y cualquier otro interesado en el tema:

Gracias a los indices de Claudia Casilla (http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com) encontre en una dispensa informacion que revela la identidad de Maria Ruiz la esposa de Marcos Macias Valadez. Resulta ser hija de Juan de Ulloa, hijo a su vez de Nicolas Ruiz Esparza, hijo de Lope Ruiz Esparaza (Y Francisca Gabai) Este Juan de Ulloa, aun no lo puedo asegurar, muy probablemente casó con mariana Gonzalez de Rubalcava. Es lo que, en mi opinion, sugieren los datos antes por Armando proporcionados y el registro siguiente:

name: Marcos Macias
gender: Male
burial date: 02 Mar 1736
burial place: Aguas Calientes
race: White
marital status: Married
spouse's name: Ysabel Martin Soto Mallor
father's name: Marcos Macias
mother's name: Maria Ruiz De Robalcaba
indexing project (batch) number: B00093-3
system origin: Mexico-EASy
source film number: 299857

La dispensa se encuentra actualmente en el siguiente link
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18412-60446-94?cc=1874591&wc…

(el enlace es a la pag 449, donde esta explicado el parentesco, pero la dispensa comienza en la pagina 441)

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Gracias por avisarnos de tal dispensa. He tratado de revisar todos las
dispensas que publicado Claudia para ver si podía encontrar datos nuevos de
ciertas familias como los Ruiz de Esparza y Macias Valadez pero por falta
de tiempo nunca me puse a leer toda esta dispensa. Yo no sabia que Lope
Ruiz de Esparza tuvo un hijo que se llamaba Nicolás. Hace falta encontrar
otro documento que menciona su existencia. Ojala alguien mas sabe algo de
el. Hasta que haya mención de otro documento voy a suponer que no existió
ese Nicolás y que Juan de Ulloa es hijo de Nicolás de Ulloa y María Ruiz de
Esparza bautizado en 1645. María Ruiz y Marcos Macias Valadez tuvieron su
primer hijo llamado Joseph el 8 de marzo de 1675 que ha de ser el mismo de
la dispensa.

Entonces corrigiendo el error de la dispensa el árbol de ellos sería de
esta forma:
Tronco Lope Ruiz de Esparza
María Ruiz..........1....Salvador Ruiz de Esparza
Juan de Ulloa.....2....Domingo Ruiz de Esparza
María Ruiz..........3....Dominga Ruiz de Esparza
Joseph Macias..4....Juana Ruiz de Escamilla

En la misma dispensa el Capitán Diego Guerra Valadez declara ser deudo de
Joseph Macias Valadez. Por poco nos falta la prueba que Marcos, el padre
del pretenso, fue hijo de mis antepasados Don Joseph Macías Valadez y
Álvarez y su esposa doña Catalina de Orán y Vega.

Ahora, al respeto de una de mis preguntas anteriores, pues siempre si
concuerdan los datos y los nombres de esa dispensa que yo había mencionado
y significa que Mariana González de Rubalcaba fue esposa de Juan de Ulloa y
Ruiz de Esparza y es por eso que su hija María apellidaba indistintamente
Ruiz de Esparza, Ruiz de Ulloa o de Ulloa y Ruiz de Esparza y ademas Ruiz
de Robalcaba. Con tu ayuda, la de Claudia, y la página de Rodolfo H.
Hernández Chávez ya tengo eso solucionado.

Saludos,
Armando

On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 7:48 PM, wrote:

> Armando, Daniel y cualquier otro interesado en el tema:
>
> Gracias a los indices de Claudia Casilla (http://www.**
> guadalajaradispensas.com ) encontre
> en una dispensa informacion que revela la identidad de Maria Ruiz la
> esposa de Marcos Macias Valadez. Resulta ser hija de Juan de Ulloa, hijo a
> su vez de Nicolas Ruiz Esparza, hijo de Lope Ruiz Esparaza (Y Francisca
> Gabai) Este Juan de Ulloa, aun no lo puedo asegurar, muy probablemente casó
> con mariana Gonzalez de Rubalcava. Es lo que, en mi opinion, sugieren los
> datos antes por Armando proporcionados y el registro siguiente:
>
>
> name: Marcos Macias
> gender: Male
> burial date: 02 Mar 1736
> burial place: Aguas Calientes
> race: White
> marital status: Married
> spouse's name: Ysabel Martin Soto Mallor
> father's name: Marcos Macias
> mother's name: Maria Ruiz De Robalcaba
> indexing project (batch) number: B00093-3
> system origin: Mexico-EASy
> source film number: 299857
>
>
>
> La dispensa se encuentra actualmente en el siguiente link
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1-18412-60446-94?**
> cc=1874591&wc=12512694
>
>
> (el enlace es a la pag 449, donde esta explidado el parentesco, pero la
> dispensa comienza en la pagina 441)
>
>
>
> Miguel Beltran

Francisco de Santiago and Barbara Rubio - Guachinango/Mascota (Jalisco)

Many years ago I was extremely happy to locate a Guadalajara Marriage Dispensa for my direct ancestors Pedro de Santiago Rubio and his marriage with Marcelina Navarrete year 1715 in Guachinango. The record answered many questions however I have not advanced past the Dispensa. I have looked everywhere, and have followed the guidance of many over the years but still nothing new to advance me past the year 1715 record.  

I'm searching for information for Francisco de Santiago and his wife Barbara Rubio.  I have absolutely no information for them other than they were the parents of Pedro de Santiago Rubio as indicated on the dispensa.  I believe Barbara Rubio was living in Mascota before living in Guachinango.  I don't know when and where she married Francisco de Santiago. I estimate that Barbara Rubio was born approximately year 1665. And my best estimates are that Francisco de Santiago may be originally from Guachinango/Amatlan/Tepuzhuacan and born approximately year 1665.

Thank you

We all have links to the Romo de Vivar and the Ruiz de Esparza?

When I read, some time ago, that virtually all families with roots in our area of interest are descendants of "Capitanes" Diego Romo de Vivar and Lope Ruis de Esparza, I thought probably that was not

Comentarios

Comentario

For the past 5 years I have concentrated on my mother's Chavez line of the founding fathers of New Mexico. Now I am back to trying to close loose ends in my father's Romo  de Vivar line. He descends from Salvador Ygnacio Romo de Vivar and wife, Francissca Angela Escalante, Bacanuche, Sonora, Mexico. One historian Mexicano says Salvador's daughter, Maria Rita de los Dolores Romo de Vivar y Escalante, descended from Jose Romo de Vivar, the founder of Bacanuche (and also was son of Diego Romo de Vivar and Maria Rangel). Other Researchers say this Jose Romo de Vivar went to Sinaloa and Sonora and nothing more is mentioned. I am wanting to close the gap between Jose Romo de Vivar and Salvador Ygnacio. Jose had sons Geronimo, Simon, and Jose Gabriel. And Geronimo had a son, Jose Antonio who married Maria Manuela de Anza, daughter of Juan Bautista de Anza and Maria Valenzuela. During Pancho Villa's run along the Mexican-USA Border in the 19 teens his men destroyed the town of Bacanuche, Ygnacio Pesqueira's hacienda, the church and many other structures, along with important papers and history. Gaps in church records that were destroyed may have had a marriage history on my ancestors who descended from Jose Romo de Vivar and Juana de Solis his wife. Any clues or thoughts are welcome. 

Comentario

We can now add George P. Bush to the Ruiz De Esparza family tree. George P. Bush is the son of Governor Jeb (John Ellis) Bush and Columba Garnica Gallo, paternal grandparents are George H. W. Bush and Barbara Pierce. George P. Bush’s maternal grandparents are José María Garnica and Josefina Gallo. The Ruiz De Esparza ancestral line is through his Gallo ancestry. I descend from Onofre Perez Gallo, brother of his Gallo ancestor.

Through George P. Bush’s mother’s ancestry, he is a 13th cousin many times removed from George Washington, the first President of the United States of America. His paternal grandfather and uncle who were Presidents of the United State are also related to George Washington through their Bush Ancestry.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: my book Mygenes2000

Comentario

I only have Lope Ruiz de Esparza so far but my people didn't stay in the area long. They seem to have wandered into Durango and settled but I have so many dead ends so here's to hoping I find a link to Diego Romo de Vivar either from Durango (mom) or Guanajuato (dad).

Can you explain what "sosa lines" are and where I would find them?

Thanks!

Comentario

Three lines of descent from the Basque “Lope Ruiz De Esparza”and “Ana Francisca Gabai Moctezuma” to “Jessica Alba”

First line:

5.) Lope Ruiz De Esparza(el menor) (1569- 1651) [Ana Francisca Gabai Moctezuma]. Parent of:
6.) Lorenza Ruiz De Esparza (1601-?) [Cap.Luis Tiscareño De Molina] Parents of
7.) Francisca Tiscareño De Molina (1625 - 1660) [Jose Delgado Diaz]. Parents of:
8.) Luis Delgado Tiscareño (1648 - 1736) [Teresa Lopez Alvarado] Parents of:
9.) Jose Manuel Delgado (1684 - ?) [Margarita Macias Valadez] Parents of:
10.) Ma. Guadalupe Delgado (1722-1778) [Juan Antonio Pedroza]. Parents of:
11.) Jose Marcos Pedroza(1744 - ?) [Juana Ignacia Vasquez]. Parents of
12.) Maria Eufrasia Pedroza (1774 - ? ) [Jose Francisco Esparza]. Parents of:
13.) Jose Francisco Esparza (1769 - ?) [Maria Eufrasia Pedroza]. Parents of:
14.) Ma. Josefa Gpe. Remigia de la Trinidad Esparza (1792 - ) [José Ignacio Mosqueira] Parents of:
15.) Genoveva Mosquera (1834 -1917) [Urbano Rangel] Parents of:
16.) Jose Ignacio Rangel (1875-1945) [Juana Cisneros]. Parents of:
17.) Maria Refugia Rangel (1892-1991) [José Sánchez]. Parents of:
18.) Francisca Sánchez (1957-1967) [Catalino Alba]. Parents of:
19.) Jose Alba Sanchez (1930-2010) [Isabel Martinez ] [ Parents of:
20.) Mark David Alba (b. 1960) [Catherine Louisa Jensen]. Parents of:
21.) Jessica Alba “the actress” (b. 1981) [Cash Warren]

Second line:

5.) Lope Ruiz De Esparza (el menor) (1569- 1651) [Ana Francisca Gabai Moctezuma]. Parent of:
6.) Salvador Ruiz De Esparza (1598-1680) [Maria Vielma] Parents of
7.) Andres Ruiz De Esparza (1620 - ?) [Catalina De la Fuente]. Parents of:
8.) Tomas Ruiz De Esparza (ca.1660 - ?) [Maria Montañés de Carillo] Parents of:
9.) Ignacio Ruiz de Esparza (ca.1681 -?) [Gertrudis Macias]. Parents of:
10.) Antonio Paulin Esparza (ca.1717 - ?) [Constanza Pedroza]. Parents of
11.) Pedro Segundo Esparza (1738 - ? ) [Maria Dolores Medina]. Parents of:
12.) Jose Francisco Esparza (1769 - ?) [Maria Eufrasia Pedroza]. Parents of:
13.) Ma. Josefa Gpe. Remigia de la Trinidad Pedroza (1792 - ) [José Ignacio Mosqueira] Parents of:
14.) Genoveva Mosquera (1834 -1917) [Urbano Rangel] Parents of:
15.) Jose Ignacio Rangel (1875-1945) [Juana Cisneros]. Parents of:
16.) Maria Refugia Rangel (1892-1991) [José Sánchez]. Parents of:
17.) Francisca Sánchez (1957-1967) [Catalino Alba]. Parents of:
18.) Jose Alba Sanchez (1930-2010) [Isabel Martinez ] [ Parents of:
19.) Mark David Alba (b. 1960) [Catherine Louisa Jensen]. Parents of:
20.) Jessica Alba “the actress” (b. 1981) [Cash Warren]

Third line:

5.) Lope Ruiz De Esparza(el menor) (1569- 1651) [Ana Francisca Gabai Moctezuma]. Parent of:
6.) Jacinto Ruiz De Esparza (1605-1679) [Leonor Lopez de Elizalde] Parents of
7.) Luisa Ruiz De Esparza (1648 - ?) [Pedro Macias Valadez]. Parents of:
8.) Margarita Macias Valadez (1686 - 1741) [Jose Manuel Delgado] Parents of:
9.) Ma. Guadalupe Delgado (1722-1778) [Juan Antonio Pedroza]. Parents of:
10.) Jose Marcos Pedroza(1744 - ?) [Juana Ignacia Vasquez]. Parents of
11.) Maria Eufrasia Pedroza (1774 - ? ) [Jose Francisco Esparza]. Parents of:
12.) Jose Francisco Esparza (1769 - ?) [Maria Eufrasia Pedroza]. Parents of:
13.) Ma. Josefa Gpe. Remigia de la Trinidad Esparza (1792 - ) [José Ignacio Mosqueira] Parents of:
14.) Genoveva Mosquera (1834 -1917) [Urbano Rangel] Parents of:
15.) Jose Ignacio Rangel (1875-1945) [Juana Cisneros]. Parents of:
16.) Maria Refugia Rangel (1892-1991) [José Sánchez]. Parents of:
17.) Francisca Sánchez (1957-1967) [Catalino Alba]. Parents of:
18.) Jose Alba Sanchez (1930-2010) [Isabel Martinez ] [ Parents of:
19.) Mark David Alba (b. 1960) [Catherine Louisa Jensen]. Parents of:
20.) Jessica Alba “the actress” (b. 1981) [Cash Warren]

Rick A. Ricci
Book mygenes2000

Comentario

Muy interesante la muy grande descendencia de los Ruiz de Esparza y Navarro Gabay. Yo también tengo varias lineas que terminan en mis bisabuelos y bisabuelas de manera múltiple:

7. JACINTO RUIZ ESPARZA NAVARRO – Juana Lopez de Lizardi
8. Nicolas Ruiz de Esparza Lopez de Lizardi / Catalina FLores
9. Teresa Lopez Flores /Lucas Martínez de Sotomayor
10. Maria Martinez de Sotomayor Lopez./ Joseph Romo de Vivar Villalobos
11. Joseph Joaquin Romo de Vivar y Sotomayor / María Josefa del Pedraxo
12. Maria Manuela Cecilia Romo de Vivar Pedraxo / Pedro José Flores de ROmo Vivar
13. Elias Flores Romo / María de los Santos de Luévano
14. MARGARITA FLORES LUEVANO / Francisco Cabral Gonzalez (mis bisabuelos)
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7. MARTIN RUIZ ESPARZA NAVARRO (1600*-1674) / María López de Lizardi
8. Ignacio Ruiz de Esparza y López de Lizardi (1632-1672) / Elena Sotelo Jaen (1636-1673)
9. María Ruiz de Esparza y Sotelo Jaen (1670-1710) / Tomas Alejo de Villalpando y Velez /1652-1738)
10. Juan Antonio de Villalpando y Ruiz Espaza (1701-**) / Josefa Flores Pichardo Narvaez (1709-**)
11. Diego de Villalpando Pichardo (1729-**)/ Juana de Dios Luevano Molina (1731-**)
12. Trinidad Esparza Arellanos (1760-**)/ Antonia Rufina Villalpando (1760-**)
13. Victoriana Esparza Villalpando (18**-<**) / Patricio Flores Arellano (**-**)
14. Jose Margarito Flores Esparza (1821-**) /Sixta Cosio Esparza (1832-**)
15. Trinidad Flores Cosío (1847-**)/ Cesario Acosta Mendoza (1841-**)
16. MARGARITA ACOSTA FLORES (1872-1856) / Adolfo Gonzalez Cosio Romo (1859-1893) (mi bisabuelo)
---------------------------------------------------------------
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7. LORENZA RUIZ ESPARZA NAVARRO /Luis Tiscareño de Molina y Márquez
8. María Tiscareño de Molina y Ruiz Esparza /Juan Pedro Romo de Vivar y Rangel Pegueros
9. Andres Romo de Vivar y Tiscareño de Molina / Juana Díaz de Montañez Carrillo
10. Joseph Andres Romo de Vivar y Díaz de Montañez / María de San Juan Martinez de Sotomayor López
11. Ana Gertrudis Romo de Vivar y Martínez de Sotomayor / José Manuel Reyes Castañeda
12. María Manuela y Reyes Romo de Vivar / Joseph Lucas Lopez de Oropeza Flores
13. Margarita Guadalupe Oropeza Reyes / Francisco Romo de vivar y Ruiz Esparza
14. María de los Santos Romo Oropeza / Bartolo González Cosio Fuentes
15. ADOLFO GONZALEZ COSIO ROMO / Margarita Acosta Flores. (mi bisabuela)

---------------------------------------------------------------
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7. MARIA RUIZ DE ESPARZA Y NAVARRO / Nicolás Márquez de los Olivos
8. Francisco de Ulloa y Ruiz / Juana Flores Gomez
9. Antonio de Salcedo Miramontes / Leonor de Ulloa Ruiz y Flores
10. Diego de Avila y González Salcedo / Nicolasa de Salcedo y de Ulloa
11. Francisco de Casas López / Lorenza de Avila Salcedo
12. Pedro de Casas / María Antonia de Miranda y Rosales
13. Bernardino de Casas y Miranda / FRANCISCA CID CALDERA OLAGUE (se vincula con la esposa de Domingo Cabral, Catalina Pinedo Caldera)
14. VICENTE SALDIVAR DE ACEVEDO (vinculo con Hernán Cortés y Moctezuma por otra via) / María Nicolasa de la Rosa Casas
15. Marcelino Saldívar de la Rosa / Juliana Gertrudis de los Reyes Felix
16. MARIA JOSEFA SALDIVAR / Felipe Cabral Hernández (Padres de Pantaleón Cabral, mi tatarabuelo)
------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
7. SALVADOR RUIZ DE ESPARZA Y NAVARRO / María de Vielma Ruiz y Gabay
8. Andres de Esparza de Vielma / Catalina de la Fuente Gutierrez
9. Miguel Ruiz de Esparza y de la Fuente / Clara Ruiz de Escamilla
10. Marcos Ruiz de Esparza Escamilla / María Efigenia Martel Anguiano
11. Clara Casarina Ruiz de Esparza Martel / Juan Ramirez Hernández
12. María Magdalena Ramirez y Ruiz de Esparza /José Antonio de Arellano
13. Josefa Rafaela Arellano Esparza / Francisco Flores
14. Patricio Flores Arellano / Victoriana Esparza Villalpando
15. José Margarito Flores / Sixta Cosío Esparza
16. Trinidad Flores Cosío / Cesario Acosta Mendoza
17. Margarita Acosta Flores / Adolfo González Cosío (mis bisabuelos)

--------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
7. SALVADOR RUIZ DE ESPARZA Y NAVARRO / María de Vielma Ruiz y Gabay
8. Andres de Esparza de Vielma / Catalina de la Fuente Gutierrez
9. Tomás Ruiz de Esparza Fuente / María Montañez Carrillo
10. Juan Ruiz de Esparza Carrillo / María Valdivia
11. Joaquin Ruiz de Esparza Valdivia / Manuela de Jesus Medina
12. Jose Rufino Romo de Vivar / María Guadalupe Ruiz de Esparza y Medina
13. Francisco Romo de Vivar y Ruiz Esparza / María Margarita Guadalupe Oropeza Reyes
14. María de los Santos Romo Oropeza / Bartolo Gonzalez Cosio Fuentes
15. Adolfo Gonzalez Cosio Romo / Margarita Acosta Flores (mis bisabuelos)

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7. SALVADOR RUIZ DE ESPARZA Y NAVARRO / María de Vielma Ruiz y Gabay
8. Andres de Esparza de Vielma / Catalina de la Fuente Gutierrez
9. Thomas Ruiz de Esparza Fuente / María Montañez
10. Juan Ruiz de Esparza Carrillo / María Baldivia
11. Joaquin Ruiz de Esparza / Manuela de Jesús Medina
12. Jose Rufino Romo de Vivar / María Gpe. Ruiz de Esparza y Medina
13. Juan José de Luévano / Maria de la Merced Romo de Vivar y Ruiz de Esparza
14. Elias Flores Romo / María de los Santos Luévano Romo de Vivar
15. MARGARITA FLORES LUEVANO / Francisco Cabral Gonzalez (mis bisabuelos)

Estas lineas las inicio con un 7. para relacionarlas con Moctezuma:

1. Axayacatl (b. 1469; d. 1492)
2. Moctezuma Xocoyotzin (b. 1480; d. 1520) / Princesa Tzihuacxochitzin Acatlan
3. Princesa Mariana Leonor Moctezuma (b. 1505; d. 1562) / Conquistador Cristóbal de Valderrama (b. 1501; d. 1562)
4. Leonor Valderrama de Moctezuma (b. 1532) / Diego Arias de Sotelo
5. Petronila Arias de Sotelo y Valderrama de Moctezuma (b. 1552) / Martín Navarro de Gabay
6. Ana Francisca Navarro Arias de Sotelo (1577-1652) / Cap. Lope Ruiz de Esparza y Díaz de Eguinoa (1569-1651)

Comentario

Coach Tom Flores coached the NFL Raiders to two championships as a head coach. He also won a championship as an assistant head coach of the Raiders. As an assistant, he was a valuable strategist that advised the head coach, Madden. He also won a NFL championship as a player with the Kansas City Chiefs. He was the backup quarterback on that chiefs team. He was also a very good quarterback when he played for the Raiders before being traded to Kansas City.

It would be nice to attend his induction to the NFL hall of fame in the summer of 2021.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

I have found Ginés de Carrion, born in 1520 in Andalucía, his son Ginés de Carrion, born in 1561 in Seville emigrated to Nueva España and married Francisca de Temillo (or Tremiño), born in Jalisco and had a son: Diego de Carrion Tremiño.
Diego was born in Pinos Zacatecas in 1615, his son Antonio de Carrion was born in Aguascalientes in 1645. Diego had a daughter: Tomassa de Carrion, born 1665 and a granddaughter: Maria Nicolasa de Castañeda Carrion, born in Pinos Zacatecas in 1688 who married Martin Ruiz de Esparza y Sotelo Jaén, a descendant of Moctezuma.

Jorge

Comentario

Hello Jose,

I too descend Repeatedly from the Ruiz De Esparza and Romo de Vivar, so yes, we are “primos.” My maternal grandfather is a third cousin of Santo Toribio Romo Gonzalez through both the Gonzalez and Romo lines.

Super Bowl champion Coach Tom Flores Is also a primo.
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Interesting Rick, they probably are descendants of Capitán Juan Pedro Romo de Vivar and María de Tiscareño Molina y Ruiz Esparza, which is also one of my Romo lines.
I have also a couple of Flores lines in Aguascalientes since two diferent great grand mothers were Flores..
Regards
Jose J. Cabral

Comentario

I too descend repeatedly from Capitán Juan Pedro Romo de Vivar and María Lorena de Tiscareño Molina y Ruiz Esparza, from one side through their son Capitan Nicolas Romo de Vivar y Ruiz de Esparza and also from their daughter Juana Teresa Romo de Vivar Tiscareño de Molina.
6 generations after that, José Canuto Diaz Romo de Vivar who was a descendant of Nicolas married Maria Rafaela Moran Lopez who was a descendant of Juana Teresa. They are my great parents.
An interesting fact I found is that Maria Lorena Tiscareño de Molina y Ruiz was the descendant of Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin through Moctezuma's daugther Mariana Leonor de Moctezuma who married the "conquistador" Cristobal de Valderrama, born in Barcelona.
Todos somos primos
Jorge

Comentario

Very true! and I think this line that connects Moctezuma to de Ruiz de Esparza y Navarro is not disputed, as far as I know. Very true we all are primos in this area of Mexico!

Comentario

Hola Jorge! 

I am a descendant of these families too. The further back I go, the more out looks like everyone was marrying their cousins. I keep wondering if the information I see on Ancestry is wrong since Ancestry is notorious for bad information but it really appears there were a lot of people marrying their cousins in early colonial periods. Now, I found that even my husband's ancestors in Zacatecas are not only cousins marrying cousins but that he has a couple of lines that go back to Moctezuma & Leonor or Marina and I have three great grandparents that are all descendants of Moctezuma through these lines in Jalisco, Zacatecas, & Aguascalientes. 

Comentario

Another descendant of Romo and Ruiz De Esparza is Singer Vikki Carr. A great grandmother was born in “La Chona” (Encarnacion de Diaz) Jalisco Mexico. She is a distant cousin of mine through our descent from Baltazar Romo de Vivar. She descends from the Romo and Ruiz De Esparza repeatedly. Her great great grandparents were from Lagos de Moreno, San Juan de Los Lagos, Jalostotitlan, Tepatitlan, Encarnacion de Diaz, Teocaltiche, and Aguascalientes. She also has some ancestors from Zacatecas.

Rick A. Ricci

Gomez Martinez

Hello everyone! I’m very excited to be part of this group and am hoping for assistance in researching my family history.

I am searching for information about my grandfather, who lived and passed away in Los Angeles, California, in 1994. He lived under a different name in the United States, but I have some details about his family of origin in Mexico. His parents were Demetria Gomez and Celestino Martinez from Villa Obregón, Cañadas de Obregón, Mexico. I believe his birth name may have been Ventura Gomez Martinez, although this has not been officially confirmed. He also had a brother named Maximino Martinez. I knew Maximino and his family, but they are not aware of the earlier family history.

I have come across several family surnames in my research, including Martin, Martinez, Barajas, Gomez, and Reynosa. While I have found information on other members of the family, I have located only one record connected to Ventura Martinez.

I am hoping to connect with long-lost relatives or anyone who

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello Christy,

 You may also look for your dad’s records with the name Buenaventura Gomez.

The surname Martinez of your family was originally Martin del Campo.   Over the generations it was shortened to Martin.  It only recently was changed to Martinez.  Celestino was baptized Celestino Martin Barajas.   And his father’s surname is Martin.   His father is only given the Martinez surname in the death record of Celestino.
 

There are two Demetria with fathers of the same name but the mothers have different names.   The fathers are not the same person as they have different ancestries.
Your Demetria’s mother is named as Maria Genaro Gutierrez. This is your ancestral line   Cañadas is very close to Valle de Guadalupe  

A Ventura Gomez shows up as a three year old in a census in Valle de Guadalupe     His parents are not named in the census which could  indicate that he was either  a visitor during the census, or being raised by friends or family in Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco.

Some of the records from people from el Salto are in , besides Cañadas, Valle de Guadlupe, Tepatitlan, or Jalostotitlan.


Your grandfather’s ancestry can be seen found at https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/landscape/GR6V-QPX

Good luck,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hello Rick!!!

Thank you for all this information. It’s definitely been a process navigating through so much, and the learning curve has been frustrating at times. There’s a lot to sort through, but I’m committed to understanding it fully.  You just helped fill in some missing pieces of my puzzle that I can now research further. If this is the person I'm looking for, he would be my beloved grandfather!!! He lived in the USA under a different identity. Different times I understand! 

 

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Hello, new member here! Looking for any info on Araujo and Oballe families in Griegos, Zacatecas

Hello everyone, my name is Alejandra Araujo. I have done a ton of research on most branches of my family history.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Alejandra, Welcome to the Nuestrosranchos group. I have nosed around at a lot of familysearch records over the past 5 years or so, particularly Padrons and Dispensas. In the 1824 Ojocaliente (Zacatecas) padron (census), in the town of San Diego, there is a Narciso Gomes and Maria Candelaria Lopes listed in this padron, along with Rosalio Gomes, age 4 in 1824. Narciso is age 22 (born circa 1802), and Candelaria is age 25 (born circa 1799). Narciso Gomes is living in the household of Pedro Gomes (age 60), and Maria Yrinea Alvarado (age 55). Also living in this household is Alejo Gomes (age 13), and Maria Josefa Gomes (age 19), who are both likely siblings of Narciso. Alejo Gomes is later listed in a marriage record as Alejo Araujo, so I believe this is your family, and likely parents of your Narciso are Pedro Araujo (Gomes) and Maria Yrinea Alvarado.

The padron is located at:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9KJ-TZT7?i=333&cat=23…
Image 334 of 784.

Alejo Gomes is found later in a 23 April 1829 Ojocaliente (Zacatecas) informational marriage record as Alejo Aranjo, son of Pedro Aranjo and Yrinea Albarado. His birth year is listed 1811, which matches the Padron from 1824. This informational marriage record is located at.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-Y193-JL?i=557
Image 558 of 639.

Hope this might help you some.

Regards,
Lee

Comentario

Hi Lee, I'm getting back into researching genealogy and I would like to thank you very much for this information (hopefully not too late)! I was wondering if you had any insight as to why the last name changed from Gomes to Araujo seemingly out of nowhere? It seems like the family took on the name Araujo and Gomes kind of stopped being used. I also cannot seem to find any records with Pedro Gomes and Yrinea Alvarado in Zacatecas. I appreciate all the help. Thank you!

Comentario

Alejandra,

Last names of Mexico families can change for a number of reasons.  One reason was simply is to distinguish from a common surname.  Perhaps there were many Gomes families in the area, and the Arajuo surname stood out, or vice-versa.   Sometimes a surname is changed to honor a mother's lineage. Sometimes a surname is changed because the surname has a more prominate (social and/or financial) status in the area.  If a family member was disgraced in some fashion, the surname could be changed to distance themselves from the disgraced family member.   The reasons vary, and normally can only be ascertained if these situations are in local public/notary records. Unfortunately, in most cases, one may never know the reason a surname was changed, unless verbally passed down from generation to generation.

Many Zacatecas area records can be difficult to find, with many older records lost, destroyed, or not available online to the public. Check the local area(s) to see if offline records exist. Often Census (Padrons) records can help, if available, and also depending on what year(s) are being looked at Civil records (births, marriages, deaths), as well as religious records (births, marriages, deaths, padrons, property, and wills) can help.  Marriage dispensations can also be valuable, if available. The children of the parents you are researching can also often provide information about older family members. 

Regards,

Lee

Father/Baptism of Manuel de Lizalde-m 19 Feb 1697 at Cuquio (lived Apozol)

One of our brick walls is Manuel de Lizalde. He is in my tree on Ancestry at https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/27355561/person/2049287080/facts The surname has many variant spellings: Lisalde, Lisarde, Lizarde, Elizalde (which is the actual original name in Basque) - with and without the "de".

The earliest record for him is his 19 Feb 1697 marriage at Cuquio, Jalisco, with Maria de Robalcava. It shows his mother are Cathalina de Carbaxal but does not show his father. The m,arriage record is at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18455-52689-9 

While his records are at the church in Cuquio, they actually lived south of Yahualica at los Ranchos de Apozol. So, Cuquio was not where they actually lived and is well south of where they lived.

I went page by page through all the Cuquio baptisms from about 1680 back to about 1660, and he was not among those baptisms.

I am working my way back through the Nochistlan baptisms now but have not yet found him, although there is a

Comentarios

Comentario

I can’t help you the Lizalde line, but there is something that seems off when you look at the marriages of their daughter Catarina.

 

Is listing Catarine de Lizarde as padres no conocidos in her second marriage an intentional or unintentional error?

Is there a dispensa in the second marriage between Catarina de Lizarde and Jose de Carbajal? 

 

23 Jan 1718

Catarina de Lizarde hija legitima de Manuel de Lizarde y de Maria de Ruvalcaba.

Blas Riuz Nunez hijo legitimo de Diego Ruiz Nunez y de Ana Gonzalez.

 

13 Feb 1736

Catarina de Lizarde hija de padres no conocidos viuda de Blas Ruiz.

Jose de Carbajal hijo de padres no conocidos.

Comentario

Don,

Thanks for commenting on the Lizarde/Lizalde family, and the marriage descrepancies. 

I have not come across dispensas for either marriage that Catarina de Lizarde/Lizalde was involved with. I believe the 1736 marriage with Jose de Carabajal stated "diligencias" was necessary, but this could be marriage information, and not a dispensa. Regardless, I have not found dispensas or marriage information records for Catarina. With her 2nd marriage to Joseph de Carabajal, as a widow, parentage was not normally required to be stated. Perhaps listing her parentage was more of a clerical error, then an actual acknowlegment of lack of known parentage.

Here are a few possible reasons for one marriage being "more complete" then the other:

a. Often only one person, frequently the groom, provided the information for the marriage. If he did not know the names of his spouse’s parents, he may have stated they were unknown rather than admitting he did not know.

b. If the marriage was a second marriage for either party, the record might omit the parents' information to focus on the deceased spouse and the validity of the current marriage.

c. If a bride or groom did not appear in person, the information provided by a third party might be incomplete.

d. "Padres No Conocidos": This phrase was used to denote that the parents were not legally or socially acknowledged, regardless of whether the individual knew who they were. 

e. If a person was born out of wedlock, the father was often not listed, or if the mother was unknown or absent, both were omitted.

f. Parish practices changed.  Often a longtime priest, who knew these families well accepted the marriage information provided "as is". If a new priest was assigned to the parish, or the marriage was in a different location, the priest may have required actual paperwork that may no longer have been available, and if could not be provided, listed parentage as unknown. 

Regards,

Lee

Comentario

Wesley, 

I have the same brick wall with regard to Manuel Lizalde, and also have found nothing naming his father. The Manuel Lizalde family ties back to my Zermeno family, hence my interest.

A Juan Lopez de Lizalde married Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza on 25 Jan 1585 in Lagos de Moreno. 

This family branch appears to be the same noted in a 1791 land record which discusses an even older 26 August 1602 land record in an area close to present day  "Las Animas" (Current day Yahaulica jurisdiction). 

This Juan Lopez de Lizalde was noted as owning caballerias in the area, and was noted as a Calvary soldier. It is highly likely to be the same Juan Lopez de Lizalde that married in 1585.  Either way, the land record places the Lizalde family in Yahaulica very early on, and presents a good likelihood Manuel Lizalde descends in some manner through this family.

Link: 1791 Land Record Link

Lee

 

 

Comentario

Hi Lee,

I'm unfamiliar with Manuel, but our family is descended from this same Juan Lópes de Lizalde and his wife, Leonor Becerra y Sánchez de Mendoza. Are there any credible sources that prove Juan's parentage? 

So far, nothing I've found is provable, but I'm a beginner to colonial era genealogy. 

Best,

Travis

Comentario

For Miguel Lopez de Lizalde and wife Leonor Aberruza, little has been uncovered in typical online genealogy records that are available for searching/viewing via FamilySearch, Ancestry, ..etc.  

Some older records (pre 1600) are only available in person at major historical/genealogical libraries, institutions, private collections (manuscripts).  Fortunately for those of us researching the Lopez de Elizalde families, the following works by some reputable genealogists/historians provide sufficient information to ascertain the lineage of the Lopez de Lizalde family who first appeared in the Lagos de Moreno (Jalisco), and Aguascalientes areas by the 1580's.  

Three credible sources come to mind: Mariano Gonzalez-Leal, Jaime Holcombe, and Jose Luis Vasquez y Rodriguez de Frias.

1st Source -  The following from the book: (by Mariano Gonzalez-Leal) Retonos de Espana en La Nueva Galicia, Tomo (book) V. Vol. 2 Universidad de Guanajuato: 1983.  I have not obtained the book, but excerpts from the book are noted within some familysearch trees by other Lopez de Lizalde researchers. In Aguascalientes, Don Miguel Lopez de Elizalde provided info to the Mayor Francisco de Pareja y Rivera regarding his noble lineage.  The source is noted as a las Minas y Real de los Ramos document from 24 July 1620.   Pages 441-443 of the Retonos covers the elder Miguel Lopez de Elizalde (married to Leonor Aberruza) and son Juan Lopez de Elizalde family. The book is available for purchase at various book stores.

2nd Source - Jaime Holcombe, Mariano Gonzalez-Leal. The following from the website: Beyond Origins of NM families (website) based on a 1954 book "Origins of New Mexico Families, by Fray Angelico Chavez.  The following is noted with reference to Cristobal de Arellano:
https://groups.google.com/g/genealogia-mexico/c/j0AjjvVADXI
Summary by José Antonio Esquibel
Researchers: Jaime Holcombe (1941-1995, Mexico) and Mariano González Leal.
Source: Chávez, "New Mexico Roots, Ltd.": 116, DM 1698, Aug. 1 (no.2), Santa Fe; Mariano González Leal, Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia (Universidad de Guanajuato: 1983), Charts 5 & 5b, and Vol. II: 328;  Private correspondence from Jaime Holcombe with John B. Colligan.
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Ancestry of Cristóbal de Arellano:
The ancestry of Cristóbal de Arellano (ONMF: 133), husband of Graciana Romero, was compiled by the prominent Mexican genealogist Jaime Holcombe. Holcombe located the baptismal record of Cristóbal de Arellano, baptized 3 May 1665, Aguascalientes, Nueva Galicia, son of Nicolás de Arellano and Leonor Fernández Becerra. Unexplainably, when Cristóbal sought to marry Graciana Romero (born circa 1680, daughter of Capitán Francisco Romero and doña Francisca Ramírez de Salazar), he named his mother as Leonor Ruiz de Esparza. In the diligencia record for this couple dated 1 August 1698, Santa Fe, Cristóbal gave his age as twenty-four and his birthplace as Aguascalientes. At the time, he was a soldier of the Santa Fe Presidio.
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Jaime Holcombe was able to connect Leonor Fernández Becerra into the genealogical research of another prominent Mexican genealogist, Mariano González Leal, who had published the genealogy of Leonor's parents in a book entitled Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia (Universidad de Guanajuato: 1983). The combination of the research of these two genealogists produces a genealogy that extends to the mid-1500s in Nueva Galicia.
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Paternal lineage of Leonor Fernández Becerra:
1st generation: Martín Navarro married with Petronila de Moctezuma, their daughter,
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2nd generation: María de Gabay married with Pedro Fernández de Vaulus, their son,
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3rd generation: Juan Fernández de Vaulus married with Leonor Becerra, their daughter,
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4th generation: Leonor Fernández Becerra, married/veiled 12 July 1664, Aguascalientes, Nueva Galicia, with Nicolás de Arellano, their son,
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5th generation: Cristóbal de Arellano.
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Maternal lineage of Leonor Fernández Becerra:
1st generation Toribio Hernández de Arellano married with doña Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza, their daughter,
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2nd generation: doña Ana Sánchez de Mendoza married 21 January 1585, Santa María de los Lagos, Nueva Galicia (Jalisco, Mexico), with Juan Becerra, their daughter,
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3rd generation: doña Leonor Becerra y Sánchez de Mendoza married with don Juan López Elizalde y Aberruza, native of Tolosa, Navarra, their daughter,
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4th generation: Leonor Becerra married with Juan Fernández de Vaulus y Gabay, their daughter,
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5th generation: Leonor Fernández Becerra married with Nicolás de Arellano, their son,
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6th  generation: Cristóbal de Arellano.

3rd source -  The following from the book: Genealogía de familias e historia del antiguo Nochistlán Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia En Siglo XVII Segun Sus Archivos Parroquiales. Jose Luis Vazquez y Rodriguez de Frias  (Note: A large portion of this book is listed in our Files section under 'Reference Materials').
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Capitulo 81 (Page 236)
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Juan Lopez de Elizalde y Aberruza, originario de Tolusa, Navarra, fue hijo de Miguel Lopez de Elizalde y de Leonor de Aberruza; Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza fue hija de Juan Becerra y de Ana Sanchez de Mendoza, esta ultima hija de Toribio Hernandez de Arellano y de Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza hija de Inigo Lopez de Mendoza y Quinonez, Marques de Mondejar y de Maria Laso de Mendoza, ambos con sus ascendencias documentadas.

En el archivo historico de aguascalientes se encuentra un documento que menciona a juan lopez de lizalde, hijo de Nicolas Lopez de Lizalde, nieto de Miguel Lopez de Lizalde quien obtubo merced como primer poblador, quien vende a nicolas Valli (hijo de Diego Ballin (hijo de Geronimo Ballin y de Francisca de Herrera) y de Francisca de Esparza, esta ultima hija de Salvador de Esparza y Maria de Vielma), Archivo Historico de Aguascalientes, Caja 40, Exp. 9, No. 44.

Asi Mismo en los protocolos de Domingo Hernandez Cordero se encuentra el siguiente documento que menciana: Carta de Venta: "...como yo, Juan Lopez de Lizardi vecino y alcalde ordinario desta villa de Aguascalientes, otorgo que vendo a Pedro Fernandez de Valdez, vecino...unas casas que teno, en que al presente vivo, linde de unos solares de Nicolas Ramirez; asi mismo le vendo una estancia de ganado menor (438 hectareas), con las caballerias de tierra y demas a ello anexo y perteneciente, a media legua poco mas o menos desta villa, que llaman de la barranca, en el rrio del cuisillo.  Donde entra en el, el rrio que llaman morsenique....todo por 200 pesos...testigos: Juan Bautista Conde y Mateo Mazias y Juan de Alvarado, vecinos" (Jorge Palomino y Candeo, Los Protocolos de Rodrigo Hernandez Codero 1585-1591, Banco Industrial de Jalisco, Guadalajara, Jalisco, 1972).

El 25 de Enero de 1585 en Santa Maria de los Lagos casaron Juan Lopez y Leonor Bezehra. Del matrimonio de Juan Lopez de Elizalde y Aberruza y de Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza se han documento los siguientes ocho vastagos.

1. Juan Lopez de Elizalde (married 1st Maria Burgeno, 2nd Ana de Quesada.
2. Maria Lopez de Elizalde (married 1st Juan de Luevana, 2nd Martin Ruiz de Esparza)
3. Juana Lopez de Elizalde (married Jacinto Ruiz de Esparza)
4. Beatris Lopez (married to Luis de Alvarado)
5. Nicolas Lopez de Elizalde (Married to Regina de Alvarado)
6. Miguel Lopez de Elizalde 
7. Agustin Lopez de Elizalde (married to Maria de Espinoza)
8. Ysabel Lopez de Elizalde (married to Francisco Diaz Ruiz)

Rough English Translation:
Juan Lopez de Elizalde y Aberruza, originally from Tolosa, Navarre, was the son of Miguel Lopez de Elizalde and Leonor de Aberruza; Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza was the daughter of Juan Becerra and Ana Sanchez de Mendoza, the latter being the daughter of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano and Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza, daughter of Iñigo Lopez de Mendoza y Quiñones, Marquis of Mondejar, and Maria Laso de Mendoza, both with documented ancestry.

In the historical archive of Aguascalientes, there is a document that mentions Juan Lopez de Lizalde, son of Nicolas Lopez de Lizalde, grandson of Miguel Lopez de Lizalde, who received a land grant as one of the first settlers, and who sells to Nicolas Valli (son of Diego Ballin (son of Geronimo Ballin and Francisca de Herrera) and Francisca de Esparza, the latter being the daughter of Salvador de Esparza and Maria de Vielma), Aguascalientes Historical Archive, Box 40, Exp. 9, No. 44.

Likewise, in the protocols of Domingo Hernandez Cordero, the following document is found: Bill of Sale: "...I, Juan Lopez de Lizardi, resident and ordinary mayor of this town of Aguascalientes, declare that I sell to Pedro Fernandez de Valdez, resident... some houses that I own, in which I currently live, bordering some plots of land belonging to Nicolas Ramirez; I also sell him a ranch for small livestock (438 hectares), with the corresponding land and everything else annexed and belonging to it, about half a league from this town, which is called La Barranca, on the Cuisillo River. Where the river called Morsenique flows into it... all for 200 pesos... witnesses: Juan Bautista Conde, Mateo Mazias, and Juan de Alvarado, residents" (Jorge Palomino y Candeo, The Protocols of Rodrigo Hernandez Cordero 1585-1591, Banco Industrial de Jalisco, Guadalajara, Jalisco, 1972).

On January 25, 1585, Juan Lopez and Leonor Bezehra were married in Santa Maria de los Lagos. The following eight children of Juan Lopez de Elizalde y Aberruza and Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza have been documented:

1. Juan Lopez de Elizalde (married 1st Maria Burgeno, 2nd Ana de Quesada)
2. Maria Lopez de Elizalde (married 1st Juan de Luevana, 2nd Martin Ruiz de Esparza)
3. Juana Lopez de Elizalde (married Jacinto Ruiz de Esparza)
4. Beatris Lopez (married to Luis de Alvarado)
5. Nicolas Lopez de Elizalde (married to Regina de Alvarado)
6. Miguel Lopez de Elizalde
7. Agustin Lopez de Elizalde (married to Maria de Espinoza)
8. Ysabel Lopez de Elizalde (married to Francisco Diaz Ruiz)

Comentario

There is a Catalina Carvajal (Garbaxal) Rivera (Ribera) from that time frame which may be worth investigating. She is the daughter of Francisco Carvajal and Cathalina Ribera

Birth Name
Catalina Carvajal Rivera
Rick A. Ricci