Nuestros Ranchos Site

Estimados Rodolfo y Ricardo

Me interesa mucho el poder asistir a esta reunion, para mi seria la primera vez, y me dara mucho gusto poder conocerlos personalmente. Ya que a la mayoria del grupo a traves de sus valiosas aportaciones y comentarios poco a poco vamos conociendolos.
Yo me encuentro en San Luis Potosi, a tres horas de distancia en auto, ya sea de Tepa o de San Miguel el Alto, por lo que donde decidan la mayoria me parece bien, y ademas si requieren alguna ayuda cuenten conmigo.
De fecha me parece bien las tres primeras semanas de Julio.
saludos
Juan Cristobal Villalobos Lomelin

Hola Rodolfo, que gusto saber de ti de nuevo. Justamente anoche estaba
pensando en escribirte para ver si nos podíamos echar una vuelta allá por
tus rumbos para visitar las ruinas de las pirámides de las que nos
platicaste. Estuve viendo un documental de Teotihuacán y quedé asombrado y
muy intrigado.

Acerca de la reunión, no se ha hablado nada todavía pero sí creo que ya es
hora de comenzar a planearla. También estoy de acuerdo en que sea en San
Miguel el Alto, sería perfecto, a menos que algún otro miembro sugiera otro
lugar. Tienes algo en mente como actividades? Algún miembro sugiere otro
lugar?

Saludos primo,

Ricardo

-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Rodolfo
Sinaí Gómez
Enviado el: viernes, febrero 20, 2009 5:01 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Reunión 2009

Estimados amigos quiero saber si se esta planeando una reonión de Historia y
Genealogía en Los Altos como la hubo en Valle de Guadalupe en el 2008, me
gustaría poder cooperar de cualquier forma y proponer sea en San Miguel el
Alto y con una mayor duración y actividad académica.

Hasta pronto.

Lic. Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez

_________________________________________________________________
Comparte fotos, juega y charla en Messenger.
http://download.live.com/messenger

Victor Manuel

Yo tengo ese libro y esta muy interesante,si hay algo en ese libro que te interese o a un miembro con gusto le proporciono la informacion .

Saludos

Jose Luis Felix

> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: cabval@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:09:50 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Para Leer en linea en el googlew libros
>
> en Google en la seccion de libros se encuentra un libro para ver casi esta completo y se encuentra en ingles sobre
> The Encomenderos of New Spain, 1521-1555 Escrito por Robert Himmerich y Valencia

¿Estás diciendo que además de las 245 peliculas de los registros para Jerez
Zacatecas encontrados en:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.as…++,
todavía hay otros 96 libros?

Salvador:

Bienvenido al sitio. Como veo ya estas contribuyendo muchisima informacion muy valiosa. El sitio Nuestros Ranchos tiene una base de datos GEDCOM donde podriamos montar el archivo. Si me lo puedes mandar a mi direccion arturo [punto] ramos2 [arroba] gmail [punto] com yo lo montare.

Gracias de nuevo.

you entered no name, what name are your files under?
 
Linda in B.C.

--- On Thu, 7/9/09, jcdl1944@hotmail.com wrote:

From: jcdl1944@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DE ESCOBEDO
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 12:24 PM

I updated my file on my DE ESCOBEDO ancestral line down to and including my parents

me realise la prueba de adn y la he comparado en algunas paginas y en ningunmomento en mexico han salido algo que diga que somos de la mism alinea los cabral solo aprece que tenemos 50 % de marcadors iguales, y en algunos casos dice que tengo el 85 porciento de los marcadores iguales a los apellidos de inglaterra y escocia, y mi arbol se ncuentra en 1610 naciendo todavia en mexico en -jerez Zacatecas

Daniel,

How far is San Miguel El Alto from San Juan de Los Lagos? I found a Pedro Gutierrz. married to Ma. Ysidra Sta. Crus (in San Juan de Los Lagos)on 17 January 1828. One of his children was Maria de Jesus Gutierrez Santa Cruz, b. 24 June 1829, in San Miguel El Alto. Is this something you already have? Have a nice day.
-Esther Jordan

Hi All, I am wondering if anyone has any San Miguel El Alto films on Loan or
are located at their local FHC.

I have this line that I can find possibly the grandparents of one ancestor,
since I dont have the marriage of the parents.

María Jesús Gutiérrez de la Cruz
24 June 1829
San Miguel El Alto, Jalisco, México
Hija de Pedro Gutiérrez y Isidra de la Cruz

Many Thanks,
Daniel

mendezdelcamino@live.com

Hola a todos, viendo el post hoy en cuanto a resultados ADN-Y se me ocurrio que habia dicho que compartiera mis resultados en cuanto me llegaran. Disculpame por no haberlo hecho aunque lo mas seguro es que nadie dejo de dormir por eso ( JA !) Mis Y resultados ADN-Y son E1b1b1a2\Version Corta E-V13. Es el tercer más común haplogrupo entre los hombres de Europea y considerado uno de los bases o fundaciones de los grupos de Europe. Es el unico subgrupo E que se encuentra con baja frecuencia(2% ) en el Norte de Africa. Este subgrupo esta asociado con la península balcánica donde se encuentra el porcentaje mas grande en el mundo de E-V13. Se usa para identificar poblaciones ancianas como los ¿illyrians?, tracios y macedonios y tambien los griegos. Poblaciones modernos que tienen alta porcentaje de E-V13 son albaneses, griegos peloponesos, búlgaros y macedonios.
En España se encuentra en baja cantidad y principalmente esta concentrado en el occidente, los porcentajes son Extremadura (9%), Galicia (7%) y en el Noroeste de Castilla La Vieja (6%). Pensaban, por un tiempo, que se encontraba en España por la exploración y las colonias de los griegos, pero las colonias griegas solamante se encuentran en la costa oriental de las regiones de Cataluña y Valencia. La gran mayoria de “E” ADN-Y en España esta asociado con los bereberes, pero este es subgrupo E-M81.
Una explicación de la llegada a España y el oeste de Europa, de un marcador genético tan predominante en la peninsula balcánica y el mediterráneo oriental, se puede encontrar en un pueblo en Gales llamado Abergele. Hicieron un estudio de los residentes y 7 resultados de los 18 hombres tenian el marcador E-V13. Hicieron otro estudio mas amplio que concluyó que 40% de los hombres en el pueblo tenian el marcador E-V13. Resulta que en la antigüedad Abergele era un pueblo Romano importante. No estaba acuartelado por Romanos\Italianos sino por auxiliares Tracios y otros hombres de origen balcánico. Existe la posibilidad que pasó lo mismo en España, tal vez el marcador llegó con los auxiliarios en el ejército Romano. El marcador E-V13 tambien llegó a Afganistán y Pakistán con los hombres del ejército de Alejandro Magno. Una pequeña porcentaje se encuentra entre los grupos que reclaman que esos hombres son sus antepasados.
¿Que significa todo eso? Pues, una cosa, soy el único E-V13 en el sitio de Gary Felix, “Geneology of Mexico”. Hay otros que tienen los mismos resultados de 12\37, pero no han hecho el análisis “deep clade”, asi que ¿quien sabe? En cuestion de ayudarme con mi estudio genealógico, no ha ayudado hasta el momento. Pienso que mis antepasados posiblemente eran de una de las provincias occidentales, tal vez Extramadura, pero todo es especulación en este momento. Discuplas por aburrirles! Gracias por sus paciencia!

Roberto ~

Traducido por Armando Antuñano

"So what does it all mean?well, for one, I'm the only E-V13 on Gary Felix's website, the “Geneology of Mexico”. There are others who have the same 12 \37 marker results, but have not done the deep clade test, so who knows ? As far as helping me with my genealogy studies, as of yet it has not. I'm thinking that my ancestors in Spain may have come from one of the western provinces, perhaps Extremadura, but it’s all speculation at this point. Sorry to bore you all ! Thanks for your patience!

Robert"

Robert,

You are welcome to email Gary Felix and see what he thinks about your haplogroup but I doubt that you will get more information than what you already expressed. The E-series of haplogroups can be grouped into the Mediterranean/Semitic group of Y-DNA. So, you should not be surprised if you found yourself related to a Jew, a Berber, or whoever was in the southern part of the Mediterranean "pond"---same gene pool, same Semitic/Mediterranean stock.

Gary and a number of us have debated these sort of results ad nauseum for the last five years. Unfortunately, I await a "quantum leap" in this DNA business because all we seem to be doing DNA-wise, in my mind, is grouping us in categories which are well known inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula: Jews, Berbers, Arabs, Celts/Basques, Visigoths (Germans), "Romans," and even the Vikings; all these people invaded the Iberian peninsula. So, your gggggg---ggg grandfather may have been a Jew or a Berber or an Arab or "North African." Hmmm. Yes, but maybe this is not the information you wanted. Maybe it is information you wanted.

Ten generations is approximately 300 years, i.e. gets you back to 1709. One generation is you. The next generation is your mother and father, 2 ancestors. The next generation is your grandparents generation, 4 ancestors. Next generation, 8 ancestors. Etc. etc. Therefore, using math, in 300 years you have 2 to the 10th distinct ancestors. You have 1024 ancestors from 1709 time frame, so your Y-DNA is 1/1024th of those ancestors since it only reflects the Y-DNA of your father's father's father's father's.......father.

Hang in there with this seemingly complicated comment, which in reality is not complicated at all. Admittedly, some of those ancestors probably intermarried so you maybe you have less than 1024 ancestors from 1709. But if there were no intermarriages, then one more generation, the eleventh, gives you 2048 distinct ancestors. Can you imagine if you go back 500-600 years (Isabella and Ferdinand) and there are no intermarriages----a mind boggling number of ancestors.

So. So. What you have to conclude from this type of argument/discussion is that many, many, many of us from a certain area are very, very, very, very likely related because, if you think about it for more than a few minutes and think about how many people there are now and how many few people there were back then, then we have to have many common ancestors in Old Mexico---forget about Iberia, forget the Balkans, forget Europe, forget them and think about the math. Bottom line, there were very few people back then and there are a lot of us now.

We are branches of a few trees. I am trying to not sound condescending; trust me.

As one of my Mexican-American genealogy friends, Robert Tarin says, "we are all related."

Think about it. The math majors will understand in a second.

Ed

p.s. Extremadura is one of the "Rayas de Portugal" where many of the original
settlers (and Jews) of Mexico came from.

Robert,
Thanks for sharing the info. It is interesting to learn about the results of these studies. I think it would be great if your post were translated to Spanish for those in México that participate in Nuestros Ranchos. What area of Jalisco, Zacatecas or Aguascalientes are your Mexican ancestors from?

Armando

Hi Robert,
This was not boring AT ALL. Thank you for taking the time to write out a
fuller explanation of your DNA findings. My grandfather (surname Torres) did
a DNA test which we then did a deep clade on and got the following results:
R1b1b2a1b; or shorthand: R-P312. According to this test, he came up negative
for most mutations (L21- M153- M222- M37- M65- P312+ P66- SRY2627- U152-),
except P312 which I thought was the least "descriptive." I would love any
additional information you or others may have on this DNA result.

-Esperanza

On 6/29/09 10:52 AM, "gandalf3.1@netzero.com"
wrote:

> Hello Everyone, seeing the post today in regards to Y DNA results, It
> occurred to me that I said I would share my results when they came in. Sorry I
> didn't do this sooner, although I'm sure no one was losing sleep over it ( HA
> !) My Y DNA results are E1b1b1a2 \ Shorthand E-V13. It is the 3rd most common
> haplogroup among European men and considered one of the core or founding
> groups in Europe. It is the only E subclade that is found in low frequencies
> (2% ) in N. Africa. This subclade is associated with the Balkans where the
> largest worldwide percentage of E-V13 is found. It is used to identify ancient
> peoples such as the Illyrians, Thracians and Macedonians, as well as Greeks.
> Modern populations that show high percentages of E-V13 are Albanians,
> Peloponnesian Greeks, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
>
> As far as Spain is concerned, it is found in low numbers and mostly confined
> to the west of the country, the highest percentages being found in Extremadura
> (9%), Galicia (7%) and NW Castile (6%). It was, at one time, thought to be
> found in Spain due to ancient Greek exploration and settlement, but Greek
> settlements noted are only found on the east coast in the regions of Cataluña
> and Valencia. The vast majority of ³E² Y DNA in Spain is associated with the
> Berbers, but this is sub clade E-M81.
>
> One theory as to how a DNA marker so prevalent in the Balkans and the Eastern
> Mediterranean made it's way to Western Europe and Spain can be found in a town
> in Wales called Abegele. A study was conducted involving the town and out of
> 18 men tested, 7 tested positive for the marker E-V13. A wider study was
> conducted and it concluded that 40 % of the men in the town carried the E-V13
> marker. It turns out in antiquity; Abergele was an important Roman town. It
> was not garrisoned by Romans \ Italians, but by Thracian auxiliaries and other
> men with a Balkan origin. A similar scenario could also apply to Spain,
> perhaps the marker made it's way there with auxiliaries in the Roman army ?
> The E-V13 marker also found it's way into Afghanistan and Pakistan with the
> men in Alexander the Great's army. A small percentage is found amongst groups
> who claim these men as their ancestors.
>
> So what does it all mean?well, for one, I'm the only E-V13 on Gary Felix's
> website, the ³Geneology of Mexico². There are others who have the same 12 \37
> marker results, but have not done the deep clade test, so who knows ? As far
> as helping me with my genealogy studies, as of yet it has not. I'm thinking
> that my ancestors in Spain may have come from one of the western provinces,
> perhaps Extremadura, but it¹s all speculation at this point. Sorry to bore you
> all ! Thanks for your patience!
>
> Robert ~
>
>
>

Hi Robert:

I also belong to the same Haplogroup as you: E1b1b1- M35. I had my YDNA
analyzed by Genetree.for 36 markers. I am interested in comparing them to
yours to see how many we have in common. Could you please send me a copy of
your markers?

Thank you.

John Gonzalez
Wildomar, CA.

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:52
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Update

> Hello Everyone, seeing the post today in regards to Y DNA results...

Hello,
I am first Generation and I cannot speak Spanish. My father came from Acatic Jalisco in 1955 and he spoke no english. We even lived in Mexico when I was a little girl and I spoke it fluently when we came back. My dad never continues to speak Spanish to me. Unfortunately I didn't take it in school, it never made sense to me, it wasn't Mexican. So now when I see my relatives, my father speaks for us. Its very frustrating!

________________________________
From: Elisa Joyce
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 4:41:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] General Digest, Vol 42, Issue 5

I am also the third generation born in this country. My father was raised in
East L.A. his grandparents came from Aguascalientes and Culiacan. My father
only spoke spanish until the age of 5 when he started attending public
school. My mother is a NewYorican ( a Puerto Rican from New York) her mother
came as a girl w/parents from Humacao, PR. She says she dosen't ever
remember not understanding both english and spanish. While both my parents
are bilingual they never taught their children spanish. They would say they
spoke primarily in english because they "think in english". The funny thing
is that they spoke spanish around us just enough for us to understand what
was being said when we heard the language, but we can't speak it. I have
learned that the 3rd generation born in the US usually don't speak spanish.
The first must speak it to communicate w/parents. The 2nd generation usually
speak it to communicate w/grandparents who frequently take care of them as
children. The third generation rarely speak spanish fluently. I have about
30 first cousins and none of them speak spanish except 2 of them who moved
to Mexico for an extended period of time to learn the language. I personally
feel like my parent did me a diservice.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:03 PM,
wrote:

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> Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
> DAILY DIGEST
> ****************************************
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Y-DNA and Jews (Cole Tepper)
> 2. DNA and Spanish Language (rosehardy@hotmail.com)
> 3. Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language (Linda)
> 4. Re: Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language (patty haro)
> 5. Traducci?n No 1 Y DNA Update (arman212@sbcglobal.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:02:51 -0700
> From: Cole Tepper
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Message-ID:
> 44ed8e970907042202p45cfb87ey21310a675b26d245@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Its ironic...My family has been in the States for 3 born generations(and
> the
> crossover generation before that). My grandparents, first generation(at
> least..on my grandma's side..dunno much about my grandfather's side) born
> here, speak/spoke it but also are native english speakers. My mother and
> my
> aunts/uncles all were taught English and didn't learn Spanish(for those
> that
> know it now) until high-school or college or just curiosity as adults. As
> far as my mother goes, she has some understanding ability but no speaking
> ability whatsoever. She's as bleached as they come. Myself and my
> brothers
> have learned Spanish only through high-school, although I personally took
> only 2 years and have a very weak vocabulary and crippled grammar. In
> university, I took up the study of Hebrew instead of continuing with
> Spanish(and its funny because I'm in San Diego).......When intoxicated I
> tend to randomly pick either tongue to express myself, sometimes both.
>
> As for the topic of Jewish DNA....I'm currently studying potential links to
> Sephardim and the Conversos/Marranos in Zacatecas. Its hard because the 3
> epicenters of Jews in Mexico at any given era where they were present would
> be Guadalajara(Jalisco), Monterrey (Nuevo Leon), and Mexico City (DF),
> though I know quite a few Jews from TJ and around here too. Zacatecas is a
> middle-ground for all 3 of those..........Given how by name, some of my
> family names come up as Sephardic, and how my family are as referred to in
> some of the e-mails here "Norteno"(lighter features,etc.) and come from an
> oral history of European roots(Spanish and French), this topic has great
> personal interest. Currently pending is a FamilyTree DNA test(Y-37 and
> mtDNA..but only my mtDNA is Mexican) so I'll see whether my suspicions are
> correct.
>
> That said...Don't be ashamed or offended if your ancestors aren't
> "Visigoths". The Sephardim contributed a great deal and financed the
> expeditions. It is because of them that Spain had fulfilled and realized
> its' potential to become a dominant power....My ancestor on my father's
> side
> is supposedly one of the chief financiers of Columbus before the Expulsion
> forced them out. Look up Meir Melamed and the Abarbanels. Without that
> money, there is not so much likelihood that they would've sent out
> colonizing parties when they did. No colonies or plunder = no economy = no
> Spain. If your ancestors are Berbers, they also contributed to
> Spain(Muslim
> Spain was supposed to be more advanced scientifically and socially).
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:40 PM, wrote:
>
> > My house was different...my daddy was a white and mom from totatiche
> > mexico.....mom spoke no english and dad spoke no spanish (few words here
> and
> > there).......my sister and I are both fully bilingual.........but now
> using
> > english more and speaking spanish only when I am at work or with my
> > mom........I feel I am just losing my spanish....?????? :-(
> > Stella
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AliceBB
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2009 9:04 am
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> >
> >
> >
> > The primary and secondary language issue is complex. Both my parents are
> > from
> > Mexico, however, my first language was English, yet I am bilingual. When
> > they
> > immigrated to the US in the late 1940's they moved into the "anglo" side
> of
> > town
> > for the better schools and witnessed the difficulty my older brother had
> > and
> > vowed they would try to make life easier for me when I was born 15 years
> > later.
> > They spoke to me primarily in English, but continued to use Spanish
> amongst
> > themselves. My MA is in second language acquisiton and learning, and I
> now
> > know
> > why it worked. At any time in our lives we all acquire language in the
> > same
> > process: listening, understanding, and speaking. I didn't speak Spanish
> > until I
> > was about 18 because of the lack of necessity and opportunity in my
> > neighborhood
> > and educational situation. However, when I decided to make the effort to
> > speak
> > Spanish, it did come and I am able to speak both languages without an
> > accent.
> > So you don't necessarily lose it if you don't use, it can lay "dormant"
> in
> > the
> > brain until awakened. Literacy is a whole other animal. You have to
> teach
> > yourself or be taught to read and write. ABB
> >
> > --- longsjourney@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:25:34 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > I'm a different Linda but we had the same rule in our family, No Spanish
> > unless
> > it was a secret plus my grandparents would tell us," you're an American
> so
> > speak
> > English!)? I know that they thought they were helping us to fit by not
> > having a
> > Spanish accent when we spoke English.? Our town was very divided racially
> > and
> > all any parents want's is the best avenue for their children so I'm not
> > angry or
> > fell cheated.? I did take it in high school but found when you don't use
> it
> > you
> > loose it!? When I went to Mexico they laughed at my slow broken Spanish
> but
> > appreciated that I did try.? My family immigrated in 1916 from Jerez and
> > both
> > grandparents became ci
> > tizens and spoke English to all the grandchildren.
> > ?
> > LInda in B.C.
> >
> > --- On Fri, 7/3/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: sjlstar@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:11 PM
> >
> >
> > Linda,
> > why forbidden?
> > Stella
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Linda
> > To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 3:57 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews
> >
> >
> > I agree with Antonio Santillan. I do not speak Spanish, even though my
> > father
> > was born in Jalisco. It was forbidden in our house (except when he and my
> > mother
> > had secrets not for children's ears). It is difficult to follow
> everything
> > on
> > this list unless a person is bilingual. My fondest wish would be to have
> a
> > translating angel who would magically translate all the emails into both
> > Spanish
> > and English so we could all participate in whatever discussion interests
> > us.
> > Valuable information would not be missed.?
> > ?
> > Maybe, one of these days, there will be such an invention for the net.?
> > ?
> > Linda?
> > ?
> > On Jul 3, 2009, at 5:03 PM,
> general-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgwrote:?
> > ?
> > > Message: 3?
> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:32:10 +0000?
> > > From: Antonio Santillan ?
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews?
> > > To: ?
> > > Message-ID: ?
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"?
> > >?
> > >?
> > > Un comentario a todos los compa?eros, no todos entendemos el > ingles,
> de
> > tal
> > manera que no participamos aun teniendo ganas y > datos que aportar a los
> > distintos temas, sugerencia no podrian > tambien escribirlos en espa?ol y
> > asi
> > aumentar el numero de > participantes en las discuciones.?
> > >?
> > >?
> > >?
> > > Saludos cordiales?
> > >?
> > >?
> > >?
> > > Antonio Santillan?
> > >?
> > ?
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --?
> > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List?
> > ?
> > To post, send email to:?
> > general(at)nuestrosranchos.org?
> > ?
> > To change your subscription, log on to:?
> > http://www.Nues
> > trosRanchos.com?
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > general(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > general(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: rosehardy@hotmail.com
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA and Spanish Language
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Message-ID:
> www.nuestrosranchos.org
> &nid=17858&pid=16032&cid=16037&uid=432&tid=
> 1&32f6143b8dfc3ecb388c6d246b1c15b3@www.nuestrosranchos.org1%2632f6143b8dfc3ecb388c6d246b1c15b3@www.nuestrosranchos.org>
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I found this thread very interesting to read. I myself do not speak spanish
> even though my parents did (mostly talking about us kids at the dinner
> table) I understand a few words here and there, but not much. It surprised
> me to learn that my mothers father who was from the old Californio families
> was not raised speaking spanish until he met my grandmother who was from
> Durangom, Mexico.
>
> I was born and raised in the eastern part of Los Angeles county and my
> father did not want his children to learn spanish for fear we would be
> discriminated against. We did not live in the barrio like my grandparents
> (my Los Altos ancestors), but on the north end of town in a middle class
> neighborhood, in an all Caucasian neighborhood. I have heard stories
> regarding my great uncles who applied for work with the county of L.A. and
> were not hired due to their ethic background. The 1930's was also a time in
> this county where Mexican/Americans were being deported to Mexico even
> though they were born in the U.S. as were their parents....they were
> bascially deported because they were dark Mexicans. Some cousins that I know
> of who were light-skinned Mexicians claiming they came from Spain just so
> that they would not be deported.
>
> I just wanted to add my little story.
>
> And by the way, I did my DNA about 2 years ago and belong to Haplo group C.
> Very interesting stuff.
>
> Rose
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:15:17 -0500
> From: Linda
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Message-ID: 1FDDBF11-B7B5-4177-A2DA-AD632511D2C9@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Hi all,
>
> Don't be surprised that many of us "older" first generation Americans
> don't speak our parents mother tongue. My father was born in
> Tepatitlan de Morelos in 1909. That was 100 years ago with 100 years
> ago attitudes. He came to the States in 1923, following his older
> brother who came a few years earlier. His brother settled in the
> "Mexican neighborhood" of Milwaukee. My father raised his family in
> the "Polish neighborhood". My father and his sister both married
> Anglos, his brother married a Mexican. Dad told stories about his
> family back in Mexico but most of the stories were fabricated. One
> example was that his father or grandfather came from Spain. I've
> traced his direct male ancestors back to around 1820 and they were
> all born in

This is good, not always accurate but a good start.

In a message dated 7/4/2009 8:59:57 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
auntyemfaustus@hotmail.com writes:

http://translate.google.com/translate_t#en|es|translate%20English%20into%20S
panish

Para los que necesitan traducir los e-mails a ingles/espanol

Link for those who need translations for Enlish/Spanish.

How's that? Ha! como les parecen?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

Joseph,

I tried to print out my surnames and Tony's (Olague and Cervantes) and they wouldn't print off this website. Did you have to pay to get the image and the history? They wanted almost $20.00 just for the image.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Puentes
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] YDNA Update

I'm pretty much going from a 80thcousin/friends information who is much
much more knowledgeable than I am in DNA understanding. Here are some
communications I've had with him:

Specifically it comes from:
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/puentes-coat-arms.htm

====================

On the subject of your haplogroup, red means predicted as opposed to
confirmed. The certificate you emailed me from Ethno (S21+)390 is
confirmation of your U106. I suggest emailing it to FTDNA and
requesting that your haplo be changed to R1b1b2g green as confirmed.
You could also email it to the U106 project administrator and also
advise that you are R1b1b2g confirmed. As to the offer below, I would
accept it, as many more recent studies are uncovering special genetic
groupings within the SNP's. The South Euro (Spain Portugal France) part
of U106 represents a very small 4%, with distintive differences in their
markers ie: DYS390+25, 385b=14 or 15, 447=25 or 26, 464A-D=15,15,16,17,
GATA H4=11, YCA I and II= 19, 23 or 24 and 456=15. These are all
different than the large modal for U106 (Frisian) which dominates the
project. My belief and that of other studies suggests these markers are
found in Basque and Gaelic populations that migrated from the Pyrennes
and Northern Spain to Ireland. This study may also shed light on when
and where this special signature emerged (Alpine Germanic? to Iberia) Lyn

======================

The simple answer to your question is yes. All R1b1b2a1a tested
individuals relate to one person who mutated to the SNP referred to in
short as R1b-U106. So far research suggests that took place about 3500
years ago. This individual was a son of SNP P311 and his brother was
P312, an SNP found in numerous Spanish individuals. These two SNP's
are so close, that recently several individuals originally tested as
U106 (your S21), were reclassified as P312. The key is the markers and
specifically the first 12. The bulk of U106 have a 390=23 and indicate
a subclade of U106 called L48+. The rest of us are L48-, and for those
closest to you 390=25. That is found in a wide area, and the debate
continues as to whether it originated in Austria moving south and north?
or Belgium moving east and south? I would bet on the second and still
see no evidence to change my opinion that those with this signature in
Spain, southern France, Ireland and Scotland are the downstream
descendants of the Celtic-Germano Volcae who migrated from the north
into Iberia circa 300BC. New subclade SNP's are discovered every day,
and maybe one will surface to further define our group. Lyn

======================

Thank you for the invite Joseph, I sincerely hope to have a chance to
meet you both at some point. My wife Cecilia (French on the maternal
side) is descended from the family Poitvin anciently of Lanquedoc in
Southern France (kinda the same area, on the North slopes of the
Pyrennes) and believe it or not as the Ripleys used to say, our
progenitor (the Volcae) if I have it figured correctly link to Turkey as
well. The distance calculation between us is a genetic distance of
26/67, so aproximately 2200-2400 years/av 30 between generations (FTDNA)
or about an 80th cousin removed by the time that original U106 line had
migrated and mutated to 13, 25, 14 10. Lyn

joseph

======================

Joseph Puentes
NoMeat@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

arman212@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Joseph, I see you commented "Spanish Origins Valley of Trucios,
Province of Biscay" Do you have more info? My ancestors are from the
same area, Valmaseda, but with a surname from Valle de Mena, Burgos. I
won't have my results until August though. Armando

Patty,

Me interesa este libro.

-Angelina-

-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of patty haro
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 6:36 PM
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara de Luz Montejano

hola,
Ya tengo donde conseguir el libro en la Ciudad de México, le interesa a
alguien?, cuesta aprox. $100 US mas gastos de envio.

Hoal Patty ,I am interested.

Ronnie Reynoso

> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:35:41 -0500
> From: pattyharo@gmail.com
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara de Luz Montejano
>
> hola,
> Ya tengo donde conseguir el libro en la Ciudad de México, le interesa a
> alguien?, cuesta aprox. $100 US mas gastos de envio.

I need to add to a comment I made earlier. The comment was "The información matrimonial will always be prior to the date of the marriage. After all of the requirements are met then the couple is give permission to marry." Although this in essence is true, occasionally additional information is found out and the marriage is suspended during the ensuing investigation. This could take place years after the permission to marry was given. Depending on the outcome of the investigation the marriage could be annulled or reinstated.

Saludos desde Lago Salado,
Eduardo H Seoane

I have also found these quite valuable. I have found information that is not in the actual marriage records; I have found matrimonial information for couples that I know have children, but cannot find the marriage records.

Searching for the documents can be a challenge. The earliest ones (1600's) are often not in chronological order, and in fact, different years may be mixed in.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Thank you, Rose, for sharing your findings regarding marriage information. Where could I find it? is is available online like FHS? This is the first time I hear about these type of records. I am familiar with the term and process as it is used nowdays when a couple applies to be married in the Catholic church.

Gracias, Rose, for compartier tus resultados respecto a la informacion matrimonial. Donde podria encontrarla? Esta disponible en linea como FHS? Esta es la primera vez que oido de este tipo de registros. Estoy familiarizada con el termino y proceso de nuestra epoca cuando una pareja pide casarse en la iglesia Catolica.

Rosie Cordova

Eduardo,

This is a totally different subject. I just started extracting records from the State of Mexico. I was doing 1930 Census Indexing and had no problem. With their new updates I am having a hard time with the extractions--not the language but the instructions. Can you help me with that? I have gone to the FHC in Mission Valley, several times but I guess I can only get help from the right person once a month (1st Wedesday of each month). The only other thing I can do is call SLC and hope they can help me. The last time I tried I ended up struggling until I figured it out on my own. There must be an easier way! Let me know if you can help. Thanks. -Esther Jordan (Lopez)esther@enhanced.org

As far as the digitizing of the records and putting them online, I doubt
that we will see any of those any time soon, FamilySearch seems to be
placing things online in an alphabetical manner. So good luck with
Zacatecas!

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Eduardo Seoane
wrote:

> The información matrimonial will always be prior to the date of
> the marriage. After all of the requirements are met then the couple is
> give permission to marry.
> Often you will find that there is a marriage record both in the city were
> the groom was from as well as the bride since they had to publish the
> marriage in both places in the three festive consecutive days (at Mas). The
> marriages normally took place in the city where the bride was from. The
> record in the city where the groom was from is more like an informative
> account of the marriage. Whereas the record at the brides parish is the
> actual marriage. Like all things, this scenario will not always be the case.
> So do not expect to always find documentation in both places.
>
> Saludos desde Lago Salado,
> Eduardo H Seoane
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 7:44 AM, wrote:
>
>> I have been doing genealogy for the past 18 years and never found the
>> benefits of the Information Matrimonial records until last night. In the
>> past I have ordered rolls and rolls of these films looking for missing
links
>> with no success. But last night I was helping my research colleague with a
>> mystery in Aguascalientes. He had the date of his ancestors marriage, but
>> the marriage document didn't provide much information....date, their names
>> and witnesses only. So for the heck of it I went to the Information
>> Matrimonial film for the year of the marriage. I looked for the month
>> previous to the date of this couples marriage and lo and behold it was
there
>> along with the names of the couples parents (one line came from Sierra de
>> Pinos).
>>
>> So if you're looking for the marriage of Joseph Peres and Juliana Chabes
>> in Aguascalientes for 3 Feb 1704, the Information Matrimonial was in
>> January, I believe it was image 15.
>>
>> I just thought I'd share this new find....not sure if you've had the same
>> problem that I've had with these records...I had pretty much given up on
>> them due to frustration and cost....but now I know how to use them.....go
>> back 6-3 weeks before the couples marriage. I'm hoping Jalisco, Zacatecas
>> and Sonora digitized records will be online soon.
>>
>> Well, looks like I'll be doing some major hunting this week-end.
>>
>> Rose Hardy
>> Fresno
>>

The información matrimonial will always be prior to the date of
the marriage. After all of the requirements are met then the couple is
give permission to marry.
Often you will find that there is a marriage record both in the city were
the groom was from as well as the bride since they had to publish the
marriage in both places in the three festive consecutive days (at Mas). The
marriages normally took place in the city where the bride was from. The
record in the city where the groom was from is more like an informative
account of the marriage. Whereas the record at the brides parish is the
actual marriage. Like all things, this scenario will not always be the case.
So do not expect to always find documentation in both places.

Saludos desde Lago Salado,
Eduardo H Seoane

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 7:44 AM, wrote:

> I have been doing genealogy for the past 18 years and never found the
> benefits of the Information Matrimonial records until last night. In the
> past I have ordered rolls and rolls of these films looking for missing links
> with no success. But last night I was helping my research colleague with a
> mystery in Aguascalientes. He had the date of his ancestors marriage, but
> the marriage document didn't provide much information....date, their names
> and witnesses only. So for the heck of it I went to the Information
> Matrimonial film for the year of the marriage. I looked for the month
> previous to the date of this couples marriage and lo and behold it was there
> along with the names of the couples parents (one line came from Sierra de
> Pinos).
>
> So if you're looking for the marriage of Joseph Peres and Juliana Chabes in
> Aguascalientes for 3 Feb 1704, the Information Matrimonial was in January, I
> believe it was image 15.
>
> I just thought I'd share this new find....not sure if you've had the same
> problem that I've had with these records...I had pretty much given up on
> them due to frustration and cost....but now I know how to use them.....go
> back 6-3 weeks before the couples marriage. I'm hoping Jalisco, Zacatecas
> and Sonora digitized records will be online soon.
>
> Well, looks like I'll be doing some major hunting this week-end.
>
> Rose Hardy
> Fresno
>

Hi Irma, this has always been an interesting topic to discuss, I think that many people have reasons and times to shorten their names, I have a sister from church and the FHC her name is still Ruiz de Esparza, she is from Cosío, Ags. We just call her sister Esparza, its customs like this that might a reason, I wasnt aware you were related to Vic. Ferr I have him in my database along with all the G. de Mendoza. Anyway I think it really just depends on the person, a general from Santa María de los Lagos, was named Moreno de Ortega, they later changed the city's name ti Lagos de Moreno in his honor. He used his European-style surname till the end of the war of independece when he died. My grandfather told me once, I need to ask him again! Ill just paraprase what I remember, that there was a time the Mexican government tried to get rid of all compound last names, but were not successful, it was an effort to create equality, since the compound showed lineage and blood, but it failed, in the government were the criollos in charge. I think the independece didnt really change things, yes, it kicked the peninsulars but put the criollos in power where it is today.

-Daniel Méndez del Camino

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