Nuestros Ranchos Site

OK.  I understand now.  Not an easy knot to untie!

The other interesting finding are your 12/12 matches.  We have to wait
for the 25 marker results to see if those hold up.


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos"  wrote:
>
> Yes, Victor I realize that the name Aranzazu is Basque, but since 
> this was the name of the adoptive father or Joseph Ramon, it is not 
> necessarily my real lineage.  To further complicate that issue, his 
> adoptive grandfather was an illegitimate child and only took the name 
> Aranzazu, because apparently that is where he was born (Real de 
> Aranzazu in Mazapil, Zacatecas).  His father's name was Juan de 
> Barreda.
> 
> The five full 12-marker matches that I get for my YDNA are:
> 
> Belarus Ashkenazi
> Puerto Rico
> Russia
> United Kingdom
> Unknown Origin Ashkenazi
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "v.h.villarreal"  
> wrote:
> >
> > Arturo,
> > 
> > You have to follow all the leads in search of the

the problem might be if you are using a dial up connection. Even with cable RoadRunner it took many seconds which is a long time for RR, but I'd imagine with cable it would be a few minutes of just sitting there letting your computer work to download it. You might want to try downloading it right before you walk away from your computer to do something else. . .come back in an hour and see if its there. Also I was originally using Netscape and needed to switch to Explorer to view the file.

just some ideas,

joseph

ps: when I eventually get around to uploading it to my website I might try breaking it into 4-1megbyte sections if I can.


latina1955@... wrote:

Arturo,

 

I am having

Yes, Victor I realize that the name Aranzazu is Basque, but since 
this was the name of the adoptive father or Joseph Ramon, it is not 
necessarily my real lineage.  To further complicate that issue, his 
adoptive grandfather was an illegitimate child and only took the name 
Aranzazu, because apparently that is where he was born (Real de 
Aranzazu in Mazapil, Zacatecas).  His father's name was Juan de 
Barreda.

The five full 12-marker matches that I get for my YDNA are:

Belarus Ashkenazi
Puerto Rico
Russia
United Kingdom
Unknown Origin Ashkenazi

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "v.h.villarreal"  
wrote:
>
> Arturo,
> 
> You have to follow all the leads in search of the answers you are
> looking for.  One quick observation regarding your message:  
Aranzazu
> is most definitely a Basque surname and while everything is 
possible,
> the Basque population is predominatly R1b, with just a mere 2.1%
> belonging to E3b, so this is something to consider.
> http://hpgl

Arturo,

You have to follow all the leads in search of the answers you are
looking for.  One quick observation regarding your message:  Aranzazu
is most definitely a Basque surname and while everything is possible,
the Basque population is predominatly R1b, with just a mere 2.1%
belonging to E3b, so this is something to consider.
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos"  wrote:
>
> Victor:
> 
> This is very insightful and valuable feedback.  I totally agree with 
> you that one should not jump to any conclusions on this, especially 
> with this haplogroup which seems to be so widely spread and undefined 
> in terms of actual "ethnic" identity.
> 
> I suppose that the most valuable piece of news from this is that it 
> gives me some idea as to the genotype of my Joseph Ramon Aranzazu, 
> who as "expuesto" and taken in by a family.  The reason why I did 
> this DNA test to begin with was

Victor:

This is very insightful and valuable feedback.  I totally agree with 
you that one should not jump to any conclusions on this, especially 
with this haplogroup which seems to be so widely spread and undefined 
in terms of actual "ethnic" identity.

I suppose that the most valuable piece of news from this is that it 
gives me some idea as to the genotype of my Joseph Ramon Aranzazu, 
who as "expuesto" and taken in by a family.  The reason why I did 
this DNA test to begin with was to hopefully find someone with a 
direct lineage to his adoptive Aranzazu family and see if perhaps he 
was in fact an illegitimate child.

This definitely keeps that door open, as it is definite that this 
lineage is of Iberian origin (as was the adoptive father).


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "v.h.villarreal"  
wrote:
>
> Arturo,
> 
> Now we have another thing in common: E3b.  To compare your numbers
> with mine and with other E3b individuals go to this link
> http://www

Arturo,

Now we have another thing in common: E3b.  To compare your numbers
with mine and with other E3b individuals go to this link
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/freemanDNAProject

I noticed that you quoted a thread from a while back where we discuss
DNA testing and ethnicity.  I'm sure you're not the kind of person to
draw hasty conclusions and that is good because E3b is not a
haplogroup without controversy.  Misconceptions abound, particularly
that one created by applying the wrong sematics to the field of
genetics.  What I mean is the misuse of the word "semitic" as an
adjective applicable to haplogroups E3b and others. 

This has been the source of much debate in circles dedicated to
discussions about population genetics and genealogy.  It is true that
a case can be made for a Sephardic ancestry, but just as easily a case
can be made also for a Moorish, Berber,  Phoenician, Gypsy, Roman,
Macedonian, Greek, etc.  ancestry, because this haplogroup can be
found in so many

Arturo,
Please send us a copy of your Tlaltenango Census.  Thank you 
Rich and Kitty Cortez
Rocklin, CA 


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos"  
wrote:
>
> If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650 
> Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to 
whomever 
> would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the 
> owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of 
> people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some 
> interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic 
> information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:
> 
> Antonio de Castro
> Lorenzo de Miramontes
> Tomasina de Haro
> Hernando Lamas
> Martin Gonzalez
> Juan de Miramontes
> Domingo de Lamas
> Martin Tello de Orozaco
> Martin Lopez
> (los) Melendes
> Francisco de Luna
> Pedro de Solis
> Antonio de Rivera
> Luis Felix Delgado
> Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
> Pedro Garcia de Morones
> Pedro Lopez

I just got back the first set of results for my Y-DNA-12 marker and 
it places my paternal lineage in the E3b haplogroup... This 
haplogroup is related to ethnic groups originating in Southern Italy, 
Southeastern Europe and the Middle East.  Looks like this is a 
Sephardic lineage.

I will be getting back the remainder of the markers (13 through 25) 
as well as the MtDNA (matrilineal) results in a couple of weeks.

I saw from previous posts that group members' maternal lines tend to 
be Haplogroup A. Is that correct?

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Villarreal"  
wrote:
>
> Emilie,
> 
> As always, it is evident that you're doing your homework and usually
> marching one step ahead of the rest of us.
> 
> Like yourself, I have been most intrigued by all those stories that
> you mentioned about the early Spanish colonizers, particularly more 
so
> when I realised that the Y haplogroup to which I belong to is not 
the
> typical Western European haplogroup but one

Thanks for sharing.  I've also heard some places in
Mexico they also have contests on the best alter in
the cemetery.  I don't think I would be afraid going
into the graveyard at night with a busload of people
either, if I ran into a spirit I probably would have
to say, hey I've hit a brick wall in my genealogy do
you know any info on the matter..haha.  Good topic for
Halloween of course.

--- "Josie T. Trevino"  wrote:

> Hi Carol!    My first experience with Dia de Los
> Muertos was in Oaxaca and I
> was, as you were told by the presenter at the art
> gallery, one of those
> people in a bus load of people taken to cemeteries
> late at night!!  :-)   It
> was not a scary experience for me mainly because
> there were a lot of people
> around and I am not afraid to go to cemeteries;
> however at that time, I had
> never been to a cemetery late at night!  A few years
> later I did spend a
> couple of nights in a cemetery (IN OUR RV) but that
> is another story!
> Mickey

Since I have gotten so many requests for this, and because I think 
most people's email programs will bounce the email if I send it to 
them since the PDF is 4MB, I have posted it in Ranchos2 in the files 
section.

As the file is so large, I imagine that Joseph will eventually have 
to take it down to make space for other items, so please go and 
download/print it when you get a chance.

I found this item at the Library of Congress.  It was written by 
Francisco Manuel de Salcedo Herrera in 1650 and transcribed by a 
priest named Eucario Lopez... who according to the prologue 
transcribed other historic documents from the Archives of the 
Archdiocese of Guadalajara.


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Turner  wrote:
>
> Please send me a copy of the Tlaltenango.
> 
> Thanks!!!!!!
> 
> --- Arturo Ramos  wrote:
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription
> of a 1650 
> Tlaltenango census this weekend

Hi, Carol! This is interesting. My grandparents never celebrated this either in El Paso and I never heard them or any of my relatives speak of it. But I do remember hearing the phrase occasionally as I was growing up. I do remember when I was a little girl, there being a biiiiiig celebration at Sacred Heart Church with Matachines. I remember being impressed with their wooden soled sandals and the noise they made. Marge



On Oct 31, 2005, at 7:47 AM, Carol Turner wrote:

DIA DE MUERTOS has made a comeback in the last five

years here in Kansas City.  I don't ever remember my

grandparents mentioning this to any of us or how they

celebrated in Mexico.  Mattie Rhodes Art gallery puts

on quite an exhibit with local artists and small

alters in dedication to our ancestors.  They also have

a big party in the street with dancing skeletons and

music, food.  I've heard Chicago puts on a big parade

now.  A few years ago I went to a slide presentation

here at the art gallery.  The

DIA DE MUERTOS has made a comeback in the last five
years here in Kansas City.  I don't ever remember my
grandparents mentioning this to any of us or how they
celebrated in Mexico.  Mattie Rhodes Art gallery puts
on quite an exhibit with local artists and small
alters in dedication to our ancestors.  They also have
a big party in the street with dancing skeletons and
music, food.  I've heard Chicago puts on a big parade
now.  A few years ago I went to a slide presentation
here at the art gallery.  The presenter told me in the
state of Oaxaca they would load up buses of people and
ride out to the cemetery late at night with candles,
flowers, food, some people brought guitars to play
music.  I asked her if she felt anything while in the
cemetery, I was just curious, she said well she wasn't
scared or anything but sensed a presence there but a
good presence.  I'm curious but is DIA DE MUERTOS
celebrated in every state of Mexico differently? We
also celebrate All Saints day which is

A tradition in Mexico is the writing of a CALAVERA for

friends,family, public personalities and politicians.  Calaveras are

meant to be funny, they are not meant as eulogies, but are mild

teasing.  There's usually some sort of rhyme, and they can be

several lines to several stanzas in length.  They can also be poems

of sharp criticism especially towards Los Politicos or Governantes
from
Mexico and U.S.

Here goes one for you Joseph, ojala y te

A tradition in Mexico is the writing of a CALAVERA for 
friends,family, public personalities and politicians.  Calaveras are 
meant to be funny, they are not meant as eulogies, but are mild 
teasing.  There's usually some sort of rhyme, and they can be 
several lines to several stanzas in length.  They can also be poems 
of sharp criticism especially towards Los Politicos or Governantes 
from Mexico and U.S.

Here goes one for you Joseph, ojala y te guste.

             JOSEPH

  ESTABA JOSEPH MUY DE MANANA 
  COMIENDO PAN Y TOMANDO SU ATOLE.
  PLATICABA CON SU AMADA, 
  CON SU "AMORCITO CORAZON"
  SUSPIRABA Y SE QUEJABA 
  DE SUS PARIENTES, YA EN EL PANTEON.
  DONDE ESTARAN?  DONDE SE ENCUENTRAN? 
  A DONDE SE FUERON? QUIEN ME DA CUENTAS?
  Y DE REPENTE, SE ESCUCHA UNA VOZ...
  AQUI ESTOY MI PRIMO, PORQUE ME BUSCABAS?
  PARA QUE SOY BUENO, Y PORQUE ME LLAMABAS.
  AHORA...
  VENGO POR TI, VENGO POR VOS
  VAMONOS JUNTITOS, SOLITOS LOS DOS 
  VAMOS A JALISCO, AGUASCALIENTES Y ZACATECAS

Please send me a copy of the Tlaltenango.

Thanks!!!!!!

--- Arturo Ramos  wrote:


---------------------------------
If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription
of a 1650 
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and
email to whomever 
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names...
only the 
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the
number of 
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there
is some 
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and
economic 
information in it.  The names that are mentioned
include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz

If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio
Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal

If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio
Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Cri

Arturo,

I would like a copy too.  Thank you.

Maria
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy Delgado"  wrote:
>
> I'd like a copy ....
> email to :
> peggydee@c...
> 
> Thanks a bunch!
> Peggy
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com]On 
Behalf Of
> Arturo Ramos
>   Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:43 AM
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [ranchos] Tlaltenango Census
> 
> 
>   If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
>   Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to 
whomever
>   would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the
>   owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
>   people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
>   interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
>   information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:
> 
>   Antonio de Castro
>   Lorenzo de Miramontes
>   Tomasina de