Online Status

By rcordovamba |

I just received today two copies of the marriage certificates of my great grandparents (from 1822 and 1797). I discovered that one couple were mulatos libres and another couple was mulato libre and espanola viuda and gives the name of the former husband instead of the names of her parents. One of these couples were related by fourth degree of consanguinity.

Was a mulato the offspring of Black and a Spanish?

Was an espanol someone who was born in Spain or is it possible that she was a criolla? I am trying to find her place of birth.

Is fourth degree of consanguinity a first cousin, offspring of our tios?

Rosie Cordova

Profile picture for user mendezdetorres

Online Status

mendezdetorres

15 years 2 months ago

Permalink

mulatto means half white and half black.
espanol could be mean peninsular or criollo there wasnttwo much of a difference in terms for espanol. Its justpeninsular means borb in the peninsula.

Fourth means they were third cousins.
Espanol was used as white, we know that there were portuguese, irish, germans, italians english etc in Colonial Mexico, and all would have been listed as espanol regardless of european origin. Espanol (which means of Spanish descent) would be used as equivalent to Caucasian today.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________

Profile picture for user arturoramos

Online Status

arturoramos

15 years 2 months ago

Permalink

Rosie:

Yes, a mulato would normally be the child of an español and a negra, though in latter years of the colony, the term came to mean many different mixes of black and European, which were earlier known as:

1. De Español y d'India; Mestisa
2. De español y Mestiza, Castiza
3. De Español y Castiza, Español
4. De Español y Negra, Mulata
5. De Español y Mulata; Morisca
6. De Español y Morisca; Albina
7. De Español y Albina; Torna atrás
8. De Español y Torna atrás; Tente en el aire
9. De Negro y d'India, China cambuja.
10. De Chino cambujo y d'India; Loba
11. De Lobo y d'India, Albarazado
12. De Albarazado y Mestiza, Barcino
13 De Indio y Barcina; Zambuigua
14. De Castizo y Mestiza; Chamizo
15. De Mestizo y d'India; Coyote
16. Indios gentiles (Heathen Indians)

As far as the term "español" in these certificates, it merely means that the person was of European descent, not necessarily born in Spain and in latter years, it could actually be someone who was of mixed race but appeared to be of European descent as the caste system seemed to be less accurate over time. Someone who was born in Spain would be referred to as "peninsular" or specifically "de los Reinos de Castilla" or whatever other country they were from and such a person would require a special permit to marry since it had to be ascertained that they were not married in their country of origin. You will definitely know when you stumble upon such a non-Mexico born ancestor.

While we are on the subject of the caste system .... I came across the term
"Yndia Lavoxia" the writing is very clear so I'm pretty sure that is what it
says. Can anyone shed some light on the meaning of Lavoxia? If it helps this
record came form the Tonila area of Jalisco.

-Angelina-

Angelina,

The term "Yndia Lavoria" means "indian laborer". In other words, someone
who worked as a laborer at a house or hacienda.

Bill Figueroa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Angelina Markle"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] caste question - "Yndia Lavoxia"

While we are on the subject of the caste system .... I came across the term
"Yndia Lavoxia" the writing is very clear so I'm pretty sure that is what it
says. Can anyone shed some light on the meaning of Lavoxia? If it helps this
record came form the Tonila area of Jalisco.

-Angelina-

Thanks Bill - that's what I thought - just needed someone else to confirm my
suspicions. -Angelina-

-----Original Message-----

Angelina,

The term "Yndia Lavoria" means "indian laborer". In other words, someone
who worked as a laborer at a house or hacienda.

Bill Figueroa

Good Morning! Two topics I have run into several places. I'm going to refer you to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm scroll down to mode of calculation. Consanguatity is tricky to figure. Mulatto is usually half european.....however, sometimes son or daughter of someone who was half.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rcordovamba@aol.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] mulatos and consanguinity
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:25:30 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> I just received today two copies of the marriage certificates of my
> great grandparents (from 1822 and 1797). I discovered that one
> couple were mulatos libres and another couple was mulato libre and
> espanola viuda and gives the name of the former husband instead of
> the names of her parents. One of these couples were related by
> fourth degree of consanguinity. Was a mulato the offspring of Black
> and a Spanish?
>
> Was an espanol someone who was born in Spain or is it possible that
> she was a criolla? I am trying to find her place of birth.
>
> Is fourth degree of consanguinity a first cousin, offspring of our tios?
>
> Rosie Cordova

THIS IS WHAT I  FOUND,

I THINKS THE REAL WORD IS        "INDIO NABORIO"     WHICH MEANS:        
 Indian of intermediate status between slave and free who was forced to work for a particular Spaniard or Spanish town.

YOU CAN FIN THIS TERM IN SAME OF THE EARLY  MANUSCRIPTS OF THE LOS ALTO'S HISTORY  TOWS,

HERE IS A GOOD DICTIONARY OF COLONIAL SPANISH TERMS:

http://www.somosprimos.com/spanishterms/spanishterms.htm

SALUDOS.

LUIS GONZALEZ JIMENEZ.

________________________________
From: "mytmo@netnitco.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 2:04:13 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio or India Lavoria

Dear Anglelina:
  I have come across Indio Lavorio on the wedding document of Panisio Alviso in the late 1700's.  I was told in means converted Indian or an Indian who had been converted to Christianity.

Maureen Bejar

Luis,

The same reference you gave Angelina gives the meaning of "Laborio" as a
Hacienda worker or resident, which is the correct meaning.

Bill Figueroa

---- Original Message -----
From: "Luis Gonzalez"
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio or India Lavoria

THIS IS WHAT I FOUND,

I THINKS THE REAL WORD IS "INDIO NABORIO" WHICH MEANS:
Indian of intermediate status between slave and free who was forced to work
for a particular Spaniard or Spanish town.

YOU CAN FIN THIS TERM IN SAME OF THE EARLY MANUSCRIPTS OF THE LOS ALTO'S
HISTORY TOWS,

HERE IS A GOOD DICTIONARY OF COLONIAL SPANISH TERMS:

http://www.somosprimos.com/spanishterms/spanishterms.htm

SALUDOS.

LUIS GONZALEZ JIMENEZ.

________________________________
From: "mytmo@netnitco.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 2:04:13 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio or India Lavoria

Dear Anglelina:
I have come across Indio Lavorio on the wedding document of Panisio Alviso
in the late 1700's. I was told in means converted Indian or an Indian who
had been converted to Christianity.

Maureen Bejar

Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Maureen Bejar

I think sometimes we equate "Spanish" with wealthy and during the early days there were many Spanish people who were as poor as the Yndios they worked and lived with.  Not everyone was upper "class" plus there were Yndios who had wealth and they were the  ones who married Espanolas sometimes.  The church still classified these children by their skin color since I have a family with an Espanola mother and Yndio father and the children are listed differently, one Yndio another Espanol and also a Mestizo oh and one was listed Mulato!  This was in Jerez, Zacatecas.

Linda in B.C.

--- On Sun, 9/27/09, mytmo@netnitco.net wrote:

From: mytmo@netnitco.net
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 1:37 PM

Dear Luis:
  Thank you for the link.  So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer.  Just out of curiosity,  I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso.  If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage.  Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? 
Maureen Bejar

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT,

THERE WERE  POOR  ESPANOLES AS WELL  THEY WHERE NOT AS LUCKY OR THEY DID NOT RECEIVED ANY INHERITAGE OR THEY JUST FALL IN DISGRACE AND LOST IT  OR MISS USE IT.
ALSO AT THE SAME TIME THERE WERE MANY WEALTHY INDIOS TOO.

OR VERY SIMPLE THERE WERE PEOPLE  THAT  DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE SOCIAL OR RACIAL STATUS, SO THEY INTERMARRIED  WITH OTHER  RACES.

SO I AGREED  100 PER CENT  WITH YOU  LINDA.

THERE IS AN OLD SAYING:

IF YOU  LIVE IN A FARM YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH A COW, MEANING THAT IF THERE IS NO OTHER PEOPLE AROUND AS IT WAS THE CASE BACK THEN  YOU WOULD MARRIED ANY BODY NEAR YOU  DON'T YOU THINK?

LUIS GONZALEZ JIMENEZ

In response to this:
"Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to
link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose
Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and
full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would
have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in
marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing
something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather
than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have
any thoughts on this? "

Didn't I read on this site that full-blooded "Indios" did not have last
names - except the Tlaxcaltecas? If Jose Iganacio Albiso was said to be an
"Indio", and he had a last name, chances are that either he was Tlaxcalteco
- who were considered "civilized" by the Spaniards, hence permitted to have
a last name OR he was not full blooded "Indio". Just a thought....

No, lots of Yndios were permitted to use Spanish surnames--they just took the name of their Spanish masters, especially if they had been Christianized--they would take the surname of the god-father. Here in the States you used to have blacks named Robert E. Lee, etc. because they took the surnames of their masters.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Latina1955@aol.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio

Didn't I read on this site that full-blooded "Indios" did not have last
names - except the Tlaxcaltecas? If Jose Iganacio Albiso was said to be an
"Indio", and he had a last name, chances are that either he was Tlaxcalteco
- who were considered "civilized" by the Spaniards, hence permitted to have
a last name OR he was not full blooded "Indio". Just a thought....

In doing the baptism records in Michoacan I found a separate book for Yndio baptisms in the mid to late 1600's and they didn't list the band or tribe but that area was mostly Purepecha I think, any way, they did have Yndio surnames listed as I would think they sounded rather than accurate spellings.  They also had Mestisos baptising with Yndio surnames.  I had not found this in Zacatecas or Jalisco research.

Linda in B.C.

--- On Sun, 9/27/09, Latina1955@aol.com wrote:

From: Latina1955@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 3:25 PM

In response to this:
"Just out of curiosity,  I wonder how an Indio would have been able to 
link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose 
Ignacio Albiso.  If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and 
full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would 
have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in 
marriage.  Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I  missing
something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing  rather
than what was going on in the general population.  Does anyone else  have
any thoughts on this? "

Didn't I read on this site that full-blooded "Indios" did not have last 
names - except the Tlaxcaltecas?  If Jose Iganacio Albiso was said to  be an
"Indio", and he had a last name, chances are that either he was  Tlaxcalteco
- who were considered "civilized" by the Spaniards, hence permitted  to have
a last name OR he was not full blooded "Indio".  Just a  thought....

Maureen,

I think you have just discovered that life on a hacienda was quite different than many of us have been led to believe. After reading dozens of records online I finally realize how mistaken my concepts were. Reading through Ricardo Lancaster-Jones' book, Haciendas De Jalisco Y Aledaños (1506-1821) opened my eyes to a new thought. The way of life in many Mexican haciendas prefigured the type of social diversity which we take for granted today. Today people marry out of their "group" regardless of the racist and/or prejudice surrounding them. I wish I had been able to know this earlier in my life. Instead of being surprised that interracial marriages occurred we could react by appreciating the fact that these unions occurred. My reaction is also a sort of disappointment. I wish that this sort of information had been more available to me in years past.

David in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
>From: mytmo@netnitco.net
>Sent: Sep 27, 2009 4:37 PM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
>
>Dear Luis:
> Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
>
>Maureen Bejar

Dear Maureen,
I'm sure that an Espanola woman's (and her family's) first choice would have been for her to marry with another Espanol. And while the Espanoles came to the new world to make fortunes, not all were successful. If you recall the "dote" dialogue within the group a week or so ago, if a single woman didn't have a healthy dowry, "limpieza de sangre" or not, an Espanola without money was out of luck unless she won the dote lottery! Furthermore, she was considered a liability to the rest of family that would have to support her for the rest of her life. In that situation, marrying an indio, especially if he had money, was better than unwillingly ending up in a convent.

Alice B Blake

--- mytmo@netnitco.net wrote:

From: mytmo@netnitco.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:37:44 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Maureen Bejar

Thank you, everyone, for your insights on the lives of those on the haciendas. This was a great discussion. I also have another book to put on my book list. I relish the time when I can relax and read a few. I had a sneaking suspicion that money might have been the key, or possibly some other kind of arrangement between the families like rights to land or water. I have also found that the members of this family were baptized as anything from mestizo/mestiza to mulatto/mulatta or one sibling as espanolo. This was in San Miguel. It seemed to be quite subjective, so highly unreliable, and as we had discussed before may have been tied to the size of "donations". I am starting to think that marrying within families was not so much to keep the race pure, but rather to keep wealth and land within the family.

Maureen

Linda

My ancestors on my father's side were from Jerez too, and I find in the records for the same family that the children all are listed as being different races, just like you found, including mulato, lots of those. Most were Espanol, very few Yndio, lots of mestizos. So the church had to have used skin color to denote race.

Did you see that TV program called The Human Family Tree where they typed the DNA of a diverse neighborhood in NY and one black guy was classified caucasian? He protested that he was obviously black (skin color) but he was told that he only had one black ancestor, that everyone else in his ancestry was caucasian.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio

I think sometimes we equate "Spanish" with wealthy and during the early days there were many Spanish people who were as poor as the Yndios they worked and lived with. Not everyone was upper "class" plus there were Yndios who had wealth and they were the ones who married Espanolas sometimes. The church still classified these children by their skin color since I have a family with an Espanola mother and Yndio father and the children are listed differently, one Yndio another Espanol and also a Mestizo oh and one was listed Mulato! This was in Jerez, Zacatecas.

Linda in B.C.

--- On Sun, 9/27/09, mytmo@netnitco.net > wrote:

From: mytmo@netnitco.net >
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 1:37 PM

Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Maureen Bejar

Maureen,

My thoughts on this are that prejudice certainly existed against full-blood Indians, but unlike here in the US, it was not a law that the races couldn't mix. The priests certainly didn't deny a couple marriage just for being of different races, I think only the members of the Espanol family objected.

My grand-father's brother-in-law's father was a pure blood Indian in Zacatecas, and when the daughter of a rich ranchero married him, the ranchero disowned the daughter, but he would still come by and check on her, but she would have nothing to do with her father. Her son said that once his Espanol grandfather came up riding on an elegant horse and asked him, "Como esta tu mama?" (How is your mother?) and when he was told she was fine, the man rode away, but her son said he picked up a rock, and threw it at the horse's hind end. He hated his grandfather as much as his mother did.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: mytmo@netnitco.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio

Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Maureen Bejar

Genealogy Research