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By coronaarechiga |

I have found a major flaw in my tree. It seems I have fallen victim to the syndrome of "too many people with the same name." I somehow had combined Francisco Michel-Ordones (1), married to Michaela Lopez-Bueso, with Francisco Michel-Ordones (2), married to Manuela Lopez-Bueso and then to Lorenza Gertrudes Gonzales. My husband is a direct descendant of both of these men.

Francisco (1), was married to Michaela up to the time of his death in 1709:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-8269-65?cc=1874591&wc=…

I have 7 children listed for this couple: Maria (Directly descended), Dominga, Domingo, Juana, Ascencio, Ignacio, Regina. I haven't located a marriage for this couple nor can I verify their parents...although there are several possibilities. A strong possibility is that he is the brother of Thomas Michel-Ordones, father of Francisco (2).

Francisco (2), was born to Thomas Michel-Ordones and Augustina Escobar in 1694 in Autlan:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-19394-40?cc=1874591&wc…

was married to Manuela Lopez-Bueso until her death in 1742 in Sayula:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18571-57336-26?cc=1874591&wc…

I have 5 children listed for this couple: Maria de la Concepcion, Juan Matias, Thomas, Julio Feliciano, and Justa Maria.

Francisco (2) married in 1744 in Sayula:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18578-4484-49?cc=1874591&wc=…

This couple had at least 6 children: Maria Magdalena (directly descended), Bernardino Jose, Juan Marcelo, Agustin Maria, Josef Francisco, and Thomas.

I've spent hours sorting out these two people and their families, but now I can't seem to be left with a swirl of information. I would greatly appreciate if someone could provide a life-preserver...or at least a stick.

Thank you,
Deedra Corona

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changito68

9 years 10 months ago

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Hello everyone,

So much useful information was presented in these Michel posts that I have had to read and re-read them several times to process all the information. When I first posted on this subject I believed I was not a direct descendant of Francisco Michel Ordones. After researching all this information, it turns out I am a direct descendant after all!

Some of the information was hypothetical and I would like to discuss that. Sergio, you pointed out that you believe Francisco Michel who was married to Juana Betancur Ruiz, married a second time, possibly to Luisa de Gusman. While it's definitely possible he was married twice, why do you suspect that's the case? The baptism you provided for Antonio Michel (son of Juan Michel and Luisa de Gusman) is an interesting clue, even though the father's name is noted as Juan Michel. The problem is that the date of the baptism is 1679. If we accept Manny's data that Francisco Michel, son of Juan Michel and Graciana Corona, was born in 12 May 1609, then that means that our Francisco Michel had Antonio Michel at the age of 70. Not impossible but not as probable either.
The other thing is you said that you have Tomas Michel married to Agustina Vargas as the son of Francisco Michel Ordones but a mother other than Juana Betancur Ruiz. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Thanks to Deedra who provided us with that gem of dispensa, we know that Thomas Michel and Nicolasa Michel were in fact siblings.

Deedra, you also proposed some interesting theories. First that Francisco Michel Ordones married to Michaela Lopez Bueso is the son of Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz. This seems very likely since Salvador Michel, who we know is the son Francisco and Juana, married Maria de la Rosa Lopez Bueso, Michaela's sister. As we know it's common for 2 brothers in a family to marry 2 sisters of another family.
You also proposed that Juan Michel married to Magdalena Cobarrubias is the brother of Salvador, Nicolasa, and Tomas Michel because they were padrinos at various baptisms and weddings of the Michel Family. This seems probable. This couple started appearing in these ceremonies around 1688. Juan Michel and Magdalena had a daughter, Juana Michel who was baptized Aug 15, 1690 (she later went on to marry Juan de Acosta). Magdalena Cobarrubias y Escobar later went on to marry Captain Juan de Fonseca around 1695 which means Juan Michel died between 1690 and 1695.

This information about Juan Michel married to Magdalena Cobarrubias and Juan Michel married to Luisa de Gusman leads me to believe they are the same person. Juan Michel had a son, Antonio with Luisa Gusman in 1679, then later a daughter Juana with Magdalena Cobarrubias in 1690. I estimate Juan Michel to be born between 1650 and 1660 and very possibly the son of Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz.

Lastly I propose that Teresa de Betancur married to Francisco de Monrroy was also a child of Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz. The reason I believe this (besides the name) is because she and her husband were padrinos to Regina Michel, daughter of Francisco Michel and Michaela Lopez Bueso and also Nicolasa Betancur and her husband were padrinos for the marriage of one of Teresa's daughters.

In conclusion and in my humble opinion, Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz had the following children:

Salvador Michel Ordones m. Maria de la Rosa Lopes Bueso (documented)
Nicolasa Michel d. 1719 m. Francisco de Cobarrubias (partially documented)
Thomas Michel Ordones m. Agustina de Escobar y Vargas (partially documented)
Francisco Michel Ordones d. 1709 m. Michaela Lopes Bueso (not documented)
Juana Michel de Betancur d. 1706 m. Hernan Gonzalez Corona (not documented)
Teresa de Betancur d. 1716 m. Francisco de Monrroy (hypothesis)
Juan Michel d. 1690-1695 m. Luisa de Gusman, m. Magdalena Cobarrubias (hypothesis)

Thanks for all the info guys!

Juan Jimenez

P.S. Gil, I have come across some information about sisters Ysabel and Juana de Betancur that you might find very useful. I will post at a later time!

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changito68

10 years ago

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Hi Deedra,

I am not a direct descendant of either Francisco Michel Ordones, but the Lopez Bueso line plays a major role in my genealogy. I too had pains trying to sort out these 2 couples, but maybe I can help slow the swirl.
Michaela Lopez Bueso was married to your Francisco Michel Ordones (1). She was the daughter of Nicolas Lopez Bueso and Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon. She was born February 1661 in Sayula and died April 15, 1719 in Tecolotlan. Children are as follows:
1. Juana Michel Lopez Bueso married to Felix de Fonseca Feb 5, 1704 in Tecolotlan. Felix de Fonseca was the son of Juan de Fonseca and Juana Contreras.
2. Maria Michel Lopez Bueso born 1689 in Tuxcacuesco, married Pedro Ramirez Dec 14, 1711 in Tecolotlan. Pedro Ramirez born 1683 in Sayula was the son of Pedro Ramirez and Damiana de Castaneda.
3. Asencio Michel born 1692 in Tecolotlan.
4. Domingo Michel born 1693 in Tuxcacuesco.
5. Regina Michel born 1696 in Tecolotlan, married Pedro Nicolas Uribe May 9, 1728 in Tecolotlan. Pedro Nicolas Uribe was the son of Tomas de Uribe and Maria Estefania Aguilar y Araysa. He was born 1696 in Tecolotlan and later married Maria Magdalena de Arysa y Santana Jan 24, 1733 in Ejutla and Gertrudis Cobarrubias July 15, 1735 in Tecolotlan before he died Nov 5, 1749.
6. Dominga Michel born 1699 in Tecolotlan and died July 20, 1744 in Tecolotlan. She married Joseph de la Encarnacion y Gomez Feb 2, 1725 in Tecolotlan. Joseph Encarnacion y Gomez was the son Pedro Gomez Garcia and Maria de Contreras.

Manuela Lopez Bueso who was married to Francisco Michel Ordones (2) was born 1699 in Tecolotlan and died June 2, 1742 in Sayula. She was the daughter of Gaspar Lopez Bueso and Maria Sanchez Cabezuelas. Gaspar Lopez Bueso was the son of Nicolas Lopez Bueso and Nicolas Guerrero de Ocon (parents of Michaela Lopez Bueso married to Francisco Michel (1)). Children for Manuela Lopez Bueso and Francisco Michel are as follows:
1. Justa Michel married to Lorenzo Preciado Feb 5, 1742 in Sayula. Lorenzo Preciado was the son of Nicolas Preciado and Antonia Figueroa de Medina.
2. Maria Michel married Agustin Preciado Apr 30, 1739 in Tuxcacuesco. Agustin Preciado was the son of Nicolas Preciado and Antonia Figueroa de Medina.
3. Ygnacio Michel born 1718 in Tecolotlan, married Michaela Preciado, daughter of Nicolas Preciado and Antonia Figueroa de Medina. (See a pattern?)
4. Maria de la Concepcion Michel born 1719 in Tecolotlan.
5. Barbara Michel born 1722 in Tecolotlan, married Juan Antonio Preciado Feb 26, 1743. Juan Antonio Preciado was the son of Antonio Preciado and Michaela Gonzalez Lozano.
6. Antonia Lugarda Michel born 1726 in Tuxcacuesco.
7. Maria Lucia Michel born 1727 in Tuxcacuesco, married Bernardo Javier Hernandez Aug 23, 1744 in Sayula. Bernardo Javier Hernandez was the son of Nicolas Hernandez and Mariana Salvatierra.
8. Juan Mathias Francisco Michel born 1729 in Tuxcacuesco, married Maria Hilaria Preciado who was the daughter of Nicolas Preciado and Antonia Figueroa de Medina. Hilaria died in 1780 and Juan Mathias remarried Maria Ygnacia Cobarrubias on July 24, 1780 in Ejutla. Ygnacia Cobarrubias was the daughter of Francisco Cobarrubias and Feliciana Santana.
9. Antonio Feliciano Michel, often noted as Felix or Felis, was born 1730 in Tuxcacuesco. He married Maria Augustina Vasquez, daughter of Joseph Vasquez and Maria Antonia Preciado.
10. Thomas Michel born 1732 in Tuxcacuesco and died June 19, 1787. He married Juana Josepha Uribe, daughter of Pedro Nicolas Uribe and Gertrudis Cobarrubias.
11. Francisca Javiera de la Merced Michel was born 1734 in Tuxcacuesco.

I do have a record that Franciso Michel Ordones (2) married a second time to Lorenza Gertrudis Gonzalez but I have only one child that I added to my tree, Maria Magdalena Michel.

I did notice that you have Ygnacio Michel as the son of Michaela Lopez Bueso but his baptism record in 1718 shows the mother as Manuela Lopez Bueso (Michaela died 1719 at age 58).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-65621-29?cc=1874591&wc…

Good luck,

Juan Jimenez

Everyone, last week was very productive with so much shared information on the Michels thank you all for sharing and rechecking this family information. Regarding the Preciado family's close connection to the Lopez Bueso's, curious to know Juan, if you have the parents of Maria Antonia Preciado the mother of Maria Augustin Vasquez. Would Maria Antonia Preciado be the sister of Juan Antonio Preciado or is she the grand-daughter of Nicolas Preciado? NEVER MIND - Finally saw you clarified she is Nicolas's daughter.

Also, on my tree I have Ygnacio/Ignacio Michel born in 1718 as the son of Manuela Lopez Bueso
from the following dispensation provided by Deedra.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-29495-12368-12?cc=1937239…

This dispensation covers the connected relationships that allowed the great-grandchild of Manuela to marry the grand-child from her brother Joseph Caytano: Juan Jose Michel with Maria Candalaria Cobian.

Much thanks eveyrone!

Gil

Hello Gil and NR Friends,
Here is the Dispensa I used to make the connection to her parents.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-31174-2563-38?cc=1937239&…

Also, I have a Testamento for Agustin Maria Michel, son of Francisco Michel and Lorensa Gertrudes Gonzales. This is the only document I have found that establishes him as their son.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-65972-5?cc=1874591&wc=…

Deedra Corona

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Salvador94

10 years ago

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Hola a todos,

He estado algo ausente de la Genealogía estos meses pero ocasionalmente reviso este foro y me encontré la discusión sobre este tema que esta relacionado con mis antepasados Michel.

Me parece muy valiosa la información que han aportado hasta ahora, pero tengo una duda que espero alguien pueda resolverme...De acuerdo a los datos que tengo Juan Michel Ordoñez y Graciana Corona tuvieron por hijo a Francisco Michel Ordoñez que casó con Juana de Betancur y Ruiz y ellos son los padres de Juana, Nicolasa y Salvador. La duda es que a Tomás Michel esposo de Agustina de Vargas-Machuca y Escobar, lo tengo como hijo de Francisco Michel Ordoñez y Corona pero a su madre con el nombre de Luisa de Guzmán. Entonces Francisco casó en dos ocasiones? Tomás y los demás Michel son en realidad medios hermanos? Y de ser así sabemos algo sobre la familia de Luisa de Guzmán?

Gracias y saludos.
Enrique Agraz

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coronaarechiga

10 years ago

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Hello Enrique Agraz, How wonderful of you to join the party!

It is possible, again, that there are too many people with the name of Thomas Michel...as well as Francisco Michel. Personally I have 5 Thomas Micheles in my tree, some may be people that I have been unable to hook up with their families.

There is a Thomas mentioned in this Dispensa who is listed as the brother of Nicolasa Michel:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-29495-12880-93?cc=1937239…
Therefore the son of Francisco Michel and Juana Betancur-Ruiz? Is this the same Tomas married to Agustina Vargas y Escobar and as you say Francisco may have been also married to Luisa de Guzman? as well as Agustina; or is this an entirely different Tomas? May we ask you your source? I personally don't have Luisa de Guzman in my tree and couldn't locate anything about her.

I also have Thomas Michel married to Juana Josefa Uribe, son of Francisco Michel Ordones and Manuela Lopez Bueso Betancur. I have Thomas, son of Thomas and Agustina Vargas y Escobar. Also, later in time, Thomas Michel married to Josefa Cobarrubias also Thomas Michel married to Antonia Cobarrubias.

I'm frustrated, but together we will surely find success in sorting out this puzzle.

Thank you,
Deedra Corona

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ssales1984

9 years 12 months ago

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Dear Deedra, Enrique, Gil and Juan,

Here are some more clues on the Michel family:
There were at least three distinct Francisco Michel :
To respect Deedra’s designation, Francisco (1) Michel, died 1709. Francisco (2) Michel was born 1694, and died after 1744. So the third Francisco actually came before the other two, so we will call him “0”. I just re-wrote to Alfredo Ignacio Peña, who kindly gave me the image of the 1609 baptism in Guadalajara. It was also Alfredo who told me that Francisco (0) was married twice to see if he had the marriage documents. He says he is about to publish a book on the Michel involvement in the Cristero wars that it will include the genealogy. But he also says he will send me the documents he has when he gets a chance. So, I will wait for more on that. So IF, and only if we can prove that Francisco (0) is the son of Juan Michel and Graciana (by finding those marriages, THEN, here is the image of the baptism of Francisco (0):
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-66712-40?cc=1874591&wc…

Now, as stated above I have that Francisco (0) was married TWO times, the first time to Juana de Betancourt Ruiz (or Ruiz de Betancour), and the second time to Luisa de Guzmán.

First Marriage:
Proof of the first marriage can be seen from Salvador Michel’s marriage to Maria de la Rosa Lopez Bueso in 1688, where Salvador was the son of Francisco Michel and Juana de Vetancor (sic. Betancour). Importantly, both Francisco and Juana are listed as “difuntos,” meaning that they had died. That also lends some credence to the 1609 birth date. It also means that Salvador had to be at least 18-20 years old.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13486-33?cc=1874591&wc…
If Francisco (0) died before 1688, that means that the Francisco Michel (1) that died in 1709, husband of Michaela Lopez Bueso, HAD to be a different one. Given the similarity of names, I agree with you Deedra, that he (1) was probably the son (maybe even the firstborn) of Francisco Michel (0) and Juana de Betancourt. But we can’t prove it for sure yet. The death record for Francisco (1) does say though that he made a will, so finding that will would be worth more to us than however much he left to his heirs!!
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-8269-65?cc=1874591&wc=…

So, to recap on Francisco (0)’s children by his first wife, Juana de Betancourt
- Salvador Michel-Ordoñez (?-before 1708), married to Maria Rosa Lopez Bueso.
Children NOT proven, but suspected:
- Francisco (1) Michel (?-1709), married to Michaela Lopez Bueso (?-1719).

Second Marriage:
As to Francisco (0) Michel’s second marriage to Luisa de Guzmán, the following baptism names the father as “Juan Michel,” rather than Francisco. Some would say Francisco (0) was called “Juan Francisco,” but I would say we need MORE documents, and cannot say Francisco and Juan are the same person. But in any case, Luisa de Guzman DID exist.
- Antonio Michel, baptized 13 Jun 1679 in Autlan, and of whom I do not know more.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-21218-98?cc=1874591&wc…

Children NOT proven by document, but suspected
- Tomas Michel (d. before 1702), married to Augustina de Vargas-Machuca y Ruiz de Escobar

Now, regarding Juana de Betancur:
There were probably at least two women named this. The first is the first wife of Francisco (0) Michel, which can be seen with Salvador Michel’s marriage listed above. But I do not have more concrete information for her. The reason I think she was the first wife is because otherwise both Juanas would be contemporaneous and married to two different men.
The second Juana de Betancor was the wife of Hernán/Fernán González-Corona (ca. 1662-after 1668). They had the following children:
- Graciana Corona (baptized 10 Sep 1662), married to Joseph Lopez de Andrade on 6 Jun 1677 in Autlan.
Baptism, says Juana was “legitima mujer” of Hernan Gonzalez, meaning his legitimate wife.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-21829-37?cc=1874591&wc…
- Juana, baptized 7 Apr 1665 in Autlan
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-21896-30?cc=1874591&wc…
- Francisca, baptized in Autlan 11 Oct 1666 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-21786-31?cc=1874591&wc… she later married Francisco Madrueño Gonzalez and had a number of children
- Nicolas (of whom there are many in Autlan), baptized 14 Feb 1668 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-21698-58?cc=1874591&wc… Interestingly, the godfather is Gaspar Michel, of whom I have no more information.
There is a Juana de Batancor who died in Autlan on 20 Nov 1706. Given that Salvador Michel’s marriage in 1688 said his mother Juana had died before then, this must be a different Juana, and thus probably the widow of Hernan Gonzalez Corona. Also, it says “el novenario que pago su yerno Fran.co Madrueño,” which would make sense if he is the husband of Francisca (see above).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18531-30925-97?cc=1874591&wc…
And a last word on Domingo Michel:
Domingo Michel, son of Francisco (1) and Michaela Lopez Bueso, died 21 Apr 1730 in Tecolotlan. Thanks to Juan’s post, I was able to connect a random Domingo Michel I had in my files to this family. Notice how in the death record it says that “se le dijeron quarto missas resadas que dio la limosna Pedro Ramíres.” That makes sense if Pedro Ramírez is Domingo’s brother-in-law, married to his sister María Michel on 14 Dec 1711 in Tecolotlan. Here is Domingo’s death record:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18562-9072-60?cc=1874591&wc=…

Hope this helps!

Sergio Salés

HI Sergio,

Thanks for all the info on the the three Francisco Michels and Thomas Michel. I too have all 4 of these Michels in my tree but cannot make the connection between them. Your reasoning makes total sense and hypothesis seems likely true.

You also asked about the source of Maria Augustina Vasquez's parents. The source is a marriage dispensation for Pedro Michel and Ana Maria Corona who married Feb 25, 1811 in Ejutla.
Their marriage record can be found here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18567-5274-10?cc=1874591&wc=…
And their dispensa can be found here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18426-92276-43?cc=1874591&wc…
Their dispensa contains two family trees. One shows the descendants of our Francisco Michel (2) who was married to Manuela Lopez Bueso. The second tree shows the descendants of Jose Vasquez. From these 2 trees you can make at least a couple of deductions. The first that Felis Michel was married to Agustina Vasquez because the trees show that they were the parents of Jose Maria Michel.
The second deduction is that Agustina Vasquez was the sister of Jose Maria Vasquez and their father was Jose Vasquez. Jose Maria Vasquez was married to Maria Valeria Michel. They married Jan 10, 1776 in Tuxcacuesco. According to their marriage record found here: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18735-65911-14?cc=1874591&wc…, Jose Maria Vasquez was the son of Jose Vasquez and Maria Antonia Preciado. Valeria Michel was the daughter of Thomas Michel and Juana Josepha Uribe. (Thomas Michel was the son of Franciso Michel (2)). Therefore Agustina Vasquez was the daughter of Jose Vasquez and Maria Antonia Preciado. (Maria Antonia Preciado was the daughter of Nicolas Preciado and Antonia Figueroa de Medina.)
I don't have much info on Jose Vasquez. But I do have that he had at least 4 children with Maria Antonia Preciado:
1. Jose Maria Vasquez who as mentioned above was married to Valeria Michel.
2. Jose Vasquez married to Rosa Garcia de Alba on Sept 25, 1762 in Ejutla. Rosa Garcia de Alba was the daughter of Juan Manuel Garcia de Alba and Juana de Santana.
3. Juan Antonia Vasquez who married Dionicia Garcia de Alba April 14, 1766 in Ejutla. Dionicia Garcia de Alba was the daughter of Juan Manuel Garcia de Alba and Juana de Santana.
4. Maria Augustina Vasquez who as mentioned above was married to Antonio Feliciano Michel.

By the way, I have a Gaspar Michel that married Maria Cobarrubias de Escobar July 6, 1683 in Ciudad Guzman. The record mentions that he is from Tecolotlan, but no mention of his parents. The parents of Maria Cobarrubias were Antonio de Cobarrubias and Maria de Escobar. Here is the link: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18457-64981-61?cc=1874591&wc…

Hope this helps you. Happy Thanksgiving!

Juan Jimenez

I have Michel way back in my lines and haven’t gotten around to researching them in depth, so this seems a good place to air out what I have.

Besides the few documents I’ve found, the only lead I have for this line is from a previous Nuestros Ranchos thread, which gives the origin: http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/19058

In my lines I have Micaela Michel Ordoñez aka Micaela Corona, baptized 29 Sep 1602 in Guadalajara; daughter of Juan Michel Ordoñez and Graciana Corona, her padrino was Gabriel Ordoñez (who I assume is her uncle). She married Juan Cortes Mudarra 3 Feb 1625 in Guadalajara; they moved to Charcas, SLP in summer of 1633; Micaela (Corona) was buried 26 May 1680, in Charcas, SLP.

I have her father, Juan Michel Ordoñez, as the son of Cristobal Ordoñez and Francisca Ruiz Farache - I am seeking documentation for this link. I don’t know who Graciana Corona’s parents are - would any of you have her pedigree?

In addition to Micaela, I have Juan Michel and Graciana Corona with two more children:
Juan Michel Ordoñez, b. 11 Jul 1607, Guadalajara; m. Juana Betancourt Ruiz
Francisco Michel Ordoñez, b. 12 May 1609, Guadalajara, m. Luisa de Guzman.

There is a marriage record for Melchor Espinosa married to Jusepa de Torrequemada (sic Torquemada?), 09 Jun 1602. The notary wrote “hiija de Gabriel digo Cristobal Ordoñez.”
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JCDK-8JY
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67202-13?cc=1874591&wc…

Melchor Espinosa and Juana Torrequemada had 2 children that I know of; on their baptism records, she uses the surname “Rifarache”:
Juan Espinosa-Rifarache, b. 13 May 1603, Guadalajara.
Manuel Espinosa-Rifarache, b. 15 May 1614, Guadalajara.

My question is: is Jusepa de Torrequemada aka Jusepa Rifarache a daughter of Cristobal Ordoñez and Francisca Ruiz Farache? And if so, what is the link to Torrequemada?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.
Saludos,

Manny Diez Hermosillo
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/jrefugioghermosillo

Manny, you add some more great pieces to the family puzzle identifying information that could have been easily overlooked because of the variations on names but I am at a loss to answer the question. Using the baptism date for Juan Michel you provided I did want to provide his record for those like me who are catching up rather fast:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-66877-20?cc=1874591&wc…

Also I am unable to find the records for Manuel and Juan searching this book
from 1603 foward:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67198-32?cc=1874591&wc…

Gil Topete

Hello Gil,

Sorry, I should've provided those:

Juan Espinosa Rifarache, 13 May 1603
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67073-36?cc=1874591&wc…

Manuel Espinosa Rifarache 15 May 1614
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-66702-38?cc=1874591&wc…

On the same image that has the marriage of Melchor Espinosa and Josepha de Torrequemada, the first entry on the left side is for Juan Pedro Cardenas and Ana Maria de Torquemada (the ceremony was performed by Juan de Torquemada); I wonder is there is any relation?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67202-13?cc=1874591&wc…

I’ve found 5 children for Juan Pedro Cardona and Maria Torquemada, and there is no reference to “Rifarache.” I haven’t pulled the records, I’ll check to see who padrinos are.

Manny Diez Hermosillo
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/jrefugioghermosillo

Hola primos,

Here are the ordenes for Gabriel Ordoñez, son of Cristobal Ordoñez and Francisca Rifarache, Sep 1600, Guadalajara, Jalisco.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12044-35376-48?cc=1502404&…

The first testigo, whose name I haven’t deciphered yet, says his wife is a 1st-cousin of Francisca de Rifarache.

Francisca de Rifarache was already deceased, but Img18b has Cristobal Ordoñez as a testigo, and he gives Gabriel’s birthdate as 20 Sep 1579, in Autlan. Cristobal gives his own age as "sesenta" or "setenta" anos mas o menos. That places his birth year between 1530 & 1540, so it's likely an arbitrary number. Regardless, it’s primary source, it places him and Francisca Rifarache in Autlan on 20 Sep 1579, it places him alive and in Guadalajara in Sep 1600, and it has his signature.

Here are the ordenes for his grandson, Diego de Espinosa, son of Melchor Espinosa and Josepha Ordoñez aka Josepha de Rifarache y Torquemada:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377-26104-59?cc=1874591&wc…

So that establishes Josepha Ordoñez aka Josepha de Rifarache y Torquemada as a daughter of Cristobal Ordoñez and Francisca Rifarache. And it adds the surname “Torquemada” to the mix.

Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Hello Gil,

Oops, it was another archive I was looking at, when I posted. My bad. Try this, and if it doesn't work, it's on Guadalajara
Diócesis de Guadalajara Ordenes 1600-1699, img18b

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377-22191-56?cc=1874591&wc…

Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Hi everyone,

I have Francisco Garcia de Alba y Ruiz marrying Casilda Ortega y Maldonado. Francisco's parents are Francisco Garcia de Alba and Isabel Ruiz Galindo. I am looking for my backup but unfortunately I think this may have been updated on my tree when I confirmed a match with someone else's tree.

Does anyone have information to clear this up?

Thanks,

Erika Rivera

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ssales1984

9 years 9 months ago

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Dear Erika,
Your question has been hotly debated before, but there has not been (as far as I know) a clear answer on the parents of Francisco García de Alba, married to Casilda de Ortega y Maldonado. The closest evidence I’ve seen comes from a Dispensa written in 1699. It mentions an Isabel Ruiz (or possibly Ruiz de Betancor) (1). The Dispensa is for Isabel’s grandson, Antonio García de Alba (6) and Faustina de Betancur y Alarcón Tresalba (12). This dispensa was requested because Antonio (the groom) was the grandson of Isabel Ruiz, while Faustina (the bride) was the granddaughter of Isabel’s brother Nicolas de Betancor (2).

It gives the parents of Antonio (6) as Diego García de Alba (4) and María Gomez de Aguirre(5), while the parents of Faustina (12) were Francisco de Betancur y Alarcón (10) and Juana Sánchez (11). An important note, though, is that I have NOT seen Isabel’s last name anywhere in a primary document as “Ruiz Galindo.” If there is one I would be happy to see it.

Here is the link to the Dispensa from 1699:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18427-14347-18?cc=1874591&wc…

Antonio and Faustina were finally married 8 Oct 1699 in Autlán. Here is the marriage document:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18522-1198-15?cc=1874591&wc=…

Put more simply:

Generation Ia) Isabel Ruiz de Betancor (1) and Nicolás de Betancor (2) were siblings (I do not know their parents’ names). Isabel Ruiz de Betancor (1) married (?) García de Alba (3). They had:

Generation IIa) Diego García de Alba (4), married María Gomez de Aguirre (5). They had :

Generation IIIa) Antonio García de Alba (6), baptized 25 Aug 1675 in Tecolotlán. Padrinos: Juan de Vetancur (7) (sic.) and María de Mora (8) (who had at least three children). The baptism link is listed below:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-60927-38?cc=1874591&wc…

Generation Ib) Nicolás de Betancor (2), married Isabel Gomez (9). Nicolás (2) died 6 Aug 1676 in Tecolotlán, although his death record says he was from Tuxcacuesco. Isabel Gomez (9) died 2 Sep 1683 in Tecolotlán, and both death records are below:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-6128-37?cc=1874591&wc=…

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-7161-34?cc=1874591&wc=…

Generation IIb) Francisco de Betancur y Alarcón (10), married Juana Sanchez (11). They had:

Generation IIIb) Faustina de Betancur y Alarcón Tresalba (12)

Theory 1: It is possible that Diego’s father was a Francisco García de Alba.

Fact: as of yet I have NOT seen a primary document that says so.
Fact: Isabel Ruiz de Betancor WAS married to a García de Alba. We know that because Antonio was born 1675.
Fact: the earliest Francisco García de Alba (discussed before on this forum) lived in the 1560s. The following is found in Jesús Amaya Topete’s “Ameca: Protofundación Mexicana, p. 67.”
"Siendo vecino de la villa de San Miguel (Ayutla?), obtuvo el 17 de mayo de 1563, merced del virrey Velasco por un sitio de ganado menor en términos de la dicha villa, una suerte de huerta y solar para casa, dentro de la misma y dos caballerías de tierra 'en la parte y lugar donde hubiere'. Sin duda este Don Francisco es el antepasado de todos los García de Alba."

Theory 1 continued: Assuming 20 years per generation his father, Diego, would have been born at the latest by around 1655. Then Diego’s father would have been born at the latest by around 1635. Of course generations can be significantly longer than 20 years. If generations are 30 years, then the date for Diego’s father would be around 1615. If generations are 40 years apart, then the date for Diego’s father would be 1585.

Conclusion: We need more documents. I think most likely there had to be at least one more generation between Diego and the original Francisco García de Alba to connect us back. Regardless of the length of generations, if and when we find this link it will be a huge find.

Finally, here is a list Antonio and Faustina’s children:
- Nicolás García de Alba Betancor, baptized in Autlán 1 Nov 1703. Here is the baptism record:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-19811-52?cc=1874591&wc…

- Juan Antonio García de Alba Betancor died in 1728 at age 14. The record also importantly gives us an approximate death date for Faustina, who had died before 1728. Here is the death record:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18562-8413-57?cc=1874591&wc=…

- FranciscA García de Alba Betancor married to Pedro de Herrera 25 Jun 1729 in Ejutla. The reocrd says the mother of the bride is “Agustina de Vetancor, ia difunta.” But given that Faustina signed herself “Augustina” on her dispensa I think Faustina and Agustina are probably the same person. Here is the marriage record:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18567-4327-42?cc=1874591&wc=…

- Joseph García de Alba Betancor, married in Autlán 7 Oct 1737 to Juana Gertrudis López Gutierrez. Importantly, this marriage gives us an approximate death date for Faustina, the mother of the groom, who had died before 1737. Here is the marriage record:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18522-632-21?cc=1874591&wc=M…

On a slightly separate family, on the right side of the image that has Antonio and Faustina’s marriage there is a marriage for Joseph Lopez de Andrade to Ana Gomes de Aguirre. I will post my thoughts on this as a separate topic, but suffice it here to note Ana’s last name as Gomez de Aguirre.

Unanswered Questions (we must prove this with primary documents):

A) Who was the husband (3) of Isabel Ruiz de Betancor (1) ?
B) Were Isabel Gomez (9) and María Gomez de Aguirre (5) and Ana Gomez de Aguirre related?
C) Who was Juan de Betancor (7)? How is he related?
D) Where do Faustina’s other last names come from?

Alright that does it for now!

Sergio

Thank you, Sergio! I'm going to dig into these records this weekend. It would be great to solve this mystery.

Hi Sergio,

Great job uncovering so much information on the Garcia the Alba and Betancur! I think I can add to your info and hopefully get a clearer picture on the subject.
That dispensa for Antonio Garcia de Alba and Faustina/Agustina Betancur provides a lot of clues. First, it's evident that Faustina uses the names Faustina and Augustina interchangeably in various records. In fact, the dispensa introduces her as "Fagustina" de Betancur y Alarcon. Second, the word "tresalba" after her name is not part of her name, but a casta designation. Literally tresalba translates to "a horse having 3 white feet". In the casta system a tresalbo is produced from an indio and a mestizo. So a tresalbo is 3 parts Indian and 1 part Spanish. (You can find all sorts of casta tables on the internet, here is a link to one http://diadelaetnia.homestead.com/mestizaje.html )
You'll note that the records for her children are either noted as "espanol" or "mestizo".

We know from the dispensa that Faustina was born about 1683 because it notes her age as 16. I do have a record of her death. She died a "sudden" death on June 9th, 1725 in Tuxcacuesco. Here is the link:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18735-67308-9?cc=1874591&wc=…

In addition to the children you listed for Faustina and Antonio, I also have:
Juana Maria Garcia b. May 1701 in Tuxcacuesco
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18684-26982-37?cc=1874591&wc…
She married Guillermo de Contreras Feb 2, 1721 in Tuxcacuesco
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18735-65399-52?cc=1874591&wc…

Juana Gertrudis b. April 1722 in Tuxcacuesco.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18684-27488-48?cc=1874591&wc…

Maria Garcia married to Pedro Aguilar Jan 7, 1740 in Ejutla.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18567-4257-15?cc=1874591&wc=…
Note: It's likely they had more children because there are big gaps in time between the children, especially in the latter years of Faustina.

Now on to Antonio Garcia de Alba. He was a puzzle to me because his dispensa notes he was the son of Diego Garcia de Alba and Maria Gomez de Aguirre. However his daughter, Maria Garcia married to Pedro Aguilar from above, produced descendants who had dispensas that showed her father, Antonio Garcia de Alba, was the son of Francisco Garcia de Alba (married to Casilda Ortega Maldonado). Here are the links to the trees of the 2 dispensas in question:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18411-65819-20?cc=1874591&wc… (Note: the tree actually shows Fernando Garcia at the top, but it should be Francisco Garcia de Alba).

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-104945-51?cc=1874591

Somewhere there seemed to be a mistake. Sergio, I did not have the baptism record for Antonio Garcia de Alba, but now that I do, thanks to you, I'm pretty sure the mistake is with the 2 dispensas from above. We know for a fact, that Antonio Garcia was the son of Diego Garcia de Alba. Because the 2 dispensas confuse Francisco Garcia de Alba with Diego Garcia the Alba, I strongly suspect that Francisco Garcia de Alba and Diego Garcia de Alba were brothers. And very possibly had a father named Francisco Garcia de Alba...

By the way, Antonio Garcia remarried after Faustina's death. He remarried Juana Lopez Saavedra on Feb 26, 1729 in Ejutla. Interestingly, both Antonio and Juana Lopez are noted as mestizos in the record.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18567-4254-42?cc=1874591&wc=…

Juan J

Hello All,

Back to the 1699 dispensa for Antonio Garcia de Alba and Faustina Betancur y Alarcon. To review some of Sergio's info:
1. Ysabel Ruiz de Betancur and Nicolas de Betancur were siblings.
2. Nicolas de Betancur was married to Ysabel Gomez. They had:
a. Francisco de Betancur Y Alarcon, married to Juana Sanchez and father of Faustina.
b. Ysabel Gomez de Betancur who married Joseph Brambila de Arriaga in Tecolotlan, 1688.
3. Ysabel Ruiz de Betancur married a Garcia de Alba (possibly Francisco). They had:
a. Diego Garcia de Alba, married to Maria Gomez de Aguirre, parents of Antonio Garcia.
b. Possibly Francisco Garcia de Alba, married to Casilda Ortega Maldonado.

Add to this another dispensa for Salvador Cobarrubias and Efigenia Garcia de Alba in 1752. In this dispensa Ysabel de Betancur was the sister of Juana de Betancur. Their mother was Ysabel Francisca Ruiz. Ysabel de Betancur was the mother of Francisco Garcia de Alba (married to Casilda Ortega Maldonado). We now have the mother of Ysabel Ruiz de Betancur and Francisco Carcia de Alba. And not only is this proof that Ysabel Ruiz de Betancur was the mother of Francisco Garcia de Alba, but combined with the dispensa for Faustina, we can conclude that Francisco Garcia de Alba and Diego Garcia de Alba were in fact brothers.

Just as important is the other branch of this tree, Juana Betancur. In the dispensa, Juana Betancur had a daughter, Nicolasa de Betancur who had Salvador de Cobarrubias. From previous posts, we learned that Juana Betancur Ruiz was married to Francisco Michel Ordones. From this dispensa we now know that they did indeed have a daughter, Nicolasa de Betancur who married Francisco de Cobarrubias.
Here is the link to the dispensa:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18411-37137-82?cc=1874591&wc…

Someone in an earlier post on this discussion had mentioned the sisters Juana and Ysabel Betancur Ruiz as the daughters of Ysabel Francisca Ruiz and Hernando de Alaracon Betancur. I do not have any info this Hernando, but the name makes sense since in the 1699 dispensa, Faustina and her father, Francisco are both referred to as Betancur y Alarcon. Also I vaguely remember reading here or elsewhere that Francisco Garcia de Alba who married Casilda Ortega Maldonado was the third generation of men named Francisco Garcia de Alba. If that's the case, then Ysabel Ruiz de Betancur was likely married to a Francisco Garcia de Alba. Maybe someone can corroborate some of this information?

From the 2 dispensas, we can conclude that Ysabel Francisca Ruiz (possibly married to Hernando de Alarcon Betancur) had the following children:

1. Juana Betancur Ruiz who was married to Francisco Michel Ordones.
2. Nicolas de Betancur who was married to Ysabel Gomez.
3. Ysabel Ruiz de Betancur (or Betancur Ruiz) who was possibly married to Francisco Garcia
de Alba.

Sergio, I bet when can probably add Juan Betancur, married to Maria Mora to that list. However I do not have any documentation to support this. I can offer a clue in the baptism record of one their children, Diego Betancur. He was baptized Aug 3, 1677 in Tecolotlan. The godparents are listed as Nicolas (name is torn) Betancur and Ysabel Gomez Duran. So it is likely that Nicolas de Betancur and Juan Betancur were brothers (or other relation). Here is the link to the baptism:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-60934-43?cc=1874591&wc…

One last thing, there is a third dispensa that has a tree with Ysabel Francisca Ruiz. However there is a mistake on the right side of the tree. You can probably figure it out. It doesn't provide new information, but I include it anyway as further documentation. The link is to the tree.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-88450-35?cc=1874591&wc…

Juan J

Hello, Sergio, Enrique, Gil, Juan, and NR friends,

There has been a lot to absorb and compare. Firstly, I would like to concede that Gil was correct regarding the name of Maria de Navarette. When I studied it again what I had mistaken for Lucia is actually "Olios a."

For the children of Juana Betancur AKA Michel Ordones and Hernan Gonzales Corona I also have: Fernando Gonzales Corona married to Angela Caro-Renteria. In the marriage Juana is referred to as Juana Michel.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13236-15?cc=1874591&wc…

In the baptism of his daughter, Juana, it mentions that Angela is widowed; meaning that Fernando died sometime during 1703.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-19692-27?cc=1874591&wc…

Not sure if it has been provided previously, but for Domingo Michel Ordones I have a baptism: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18684-28421-25?cc=1874591&wc…

Sergio, please keep us informed regarding the book by your friend, Alfredo Ignacio Peña, and how we might purchase it.

Thank you,
Deedra Corona

Sergio, amazing! Thanks for so many referenced documents. When I just began building out my tree on the Michels two years ago I cold-contacted Alfredo Ignacio Peña who guided me to prove my connection to the Perez de Alencastre family. He also provided me with a partial list of family names that went straight to Diego Martin who married Elvira Ordones the parents of Cristobal Ordonez (Just searching the last name Ordonez list indexes dating back to 1548).

At the time his computer with all his data had crashed and he was in pursuit of the hard copy family book with all the Michel info in it. I have since lost contact with Alfredo and I recall he was at a dead-end on Diego Martin's origins.

Now that said, on myheritage.com the family tree service I use, there is another member who may be a member here too and I asked her to join in on the conversation-- her tree has a Juana de Betancor Ruiz circa 1610 with a sister Isabel Betancor Ruiz married to Francisco Garsia de Alba, as the father of Francisco Garsia de Alba married to Casilda de Ortega.

I hope she may have documents to confirm her connections but they certainly fit in the time line if confirmed. She goes one better listing the parents of Juana and Isabel as Hernando de Alarcon Betancor and Isabel Francesca.

On a side note in anticipation of Alfredo's book, my grandfather Eulalio Torres was a Cristero commander in Michoacan.

Gil Topete

Gil Topete
Not sure if you picked over these bones already that provide more indirect clues...I am also related to Captain Juan de Fonseca and his other son married Juana Lopez Boeso, the daughter of Francisco Michel Ordonez and Micaela Lopez Boeso (see bottom right continued on next page:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13491-42?cc=1874591&wc…

But also, based on the original post, Cristobal Ordonez had several son's one also named Francisco much earlier...I am surprised that with so many sons and daughters of Micaela and Francisco that none of their children's baptism records are not revealing better clues?

Thank you for your other links. Does your information substantiate my guess that Manuala Lopez-Bueso had a brother Joseph Cayetano Lopez Bueso? His name in one form or the other is listed as the godfather of two of Manuelas children: Barbara and Antonia Lugarda. Know that your information Provided Gaspar has Manuela's father, I still have not connected Joseph to Gaspar.

Hello Gil Topete,

Thank you for your input into this puzzle. Indeed Manuela and Josef Cayetano (married to Margarita Ramirez Habellano) were siblings based on this Dispensa:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-29495-11106-51?cc=1937239…

I hope this is helpful to you. We'll continue the search and hopefully, together, we can resolve this. And I thought I had it all under control!!
Thank you
Deedra Corona

Hi Deedra,
It seems we get to help each other again. I don’t have all the info you need, but I can help make a couple things more certain.

As far as I can tell, I am not a descendant of Francisco Michel-Ordoñes (1), but I do descend from the Francisco Michel Ordoñes (2) you mention. I do not know Francisco (1)’s parents. There was a Francisco Michel Corona, born 1609 in Guadalajara, and he is probably related, but there must be an intermediate generation at least.

Here is what I do have:
For Francisco Michel- Ordoñes (1) and Micheala Lopez-Bueso Betancur (?-1719), I also have the following children:
Dominga (?-1744), Asencio (1692-1727), Regina (1696-?), Juana (?)
Then I know that Michaela died 15 Apr 1719 in Tecolotlan:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-6814-12?cc=1874591&wc=…

As far as Francisco Michel (2) and Manuela Lopez Buezo, you correctly point out his parents were Thomas Michel and Augustina de Escobar. I am not certain about Augustina’s info. She must have also used Vargas, making her name Augustina Vargas de Escobar, as you can see from Francisco’s 2nd marriage. There is the possibility she was born in Guadalajara as a Vargas-Machuca, but I can’t find my notes on that. You also provided us with the death date for Manuela Lopez Buezo, so thanks! That record also confirms that she was the daughter of Gaspar Lopez Buezo and Mariana Sanchez Cabezuela. You may already have had this (and her parents’ names), but Manuela’s baptism is in Tecolotlan in 1699:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-58847-34?cc=1874591&wc…
I don’t have a death date for Francisco (2)
For the children of his first marriage, you have a Julio Feliciano, but I descend from Antonio Feliciano (aka Felix) Michel, baptized in Tuxcacuesco on 11 Nov 1730, born Oct 19.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18684-26893-39?cc=1874591&wc…
Do you have concrete info on Julio Feliciano as a different person than Antonio Feliciano?

Hope this helps!

Sergio Salés

Hello Gil and Sergio, thank you for your help. Its always more fun to work as a team.
I have come to the belief, as yet unproven, that Francisco Michel Ordonez, married to Michaela, is the son of Francisco Michel and Juana Betancur Ruiz. This would make him the brother of Salvador, Nicolasa, and Thomas. It is very possible that Juan Michel, married to Magdalena Cobarrubias is their brother as well as this couple are padrinos in several weddings and baptisms within this family. However this remains speculation with no definitive proof...waiting for a miracle.

Sergio, I apologize for giving the wrong name for your ancestor Antonio Feliciano. I was probably looking at the next name, Justa Maria, and change Antonio to Julio in my mind. Also, that was a very good call regarding Agustina Vargas Escobar and the Vargas Machuca family. Here is the link for her baptism:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18378-14449-7?cc=1874591&wc=…

Also the marriage of her sister Maria Ana:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13671-40?cc=1874591&wc…

And baptism for her brother Francisco:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-61850-38?cc=1874591&wc…

The search continues!!!
Deedra Corona

Hello Gil,

You are way ahead of me. The oldest Garcia de Alba I have is Francisco married to Mariana Casilda Ortega Maldonado in Tecolotlan. I do have Juana Betancur Ruiz married to Francisco Ordones Corona, but no family for her. I also have Juana Michel Ordones Betancur (who I suspect is their daughter) married to Hernan Gonzales-Corona. I have Isabel Betancur Gomez married to Josef Brambila y Arrriaga in 1688 (Daughter of Nicolas Betancur and Isabel Gomez.

Deedra Corona

Hi Deedra and Sergio, I found the following record for the baptism
of Maria Navarrete Corona in Autlan, June of 1641. While these names
are more discernible than those under Maria Ana's marriage, is this
another daughter? Seems unusual to get married 45 years later unless
Maria and Maria Ana are two different daughters.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-23053-11?cc=1874591&wc…

I think its clear that the names are of her parents are Luis de Navarrete and Luisa or Lucia Corona. Not Jesus de Navarrete as indexed on Maria Ana's record. Also I am
beginning to think Lucia/Luisa is closely related to Graciana Corona who was married to Juan Michel Ordonez II.

Your thoughts?

Gil Topete

Deedra and Sergio, focus on the names of the de Navarrete and Corona's. I hit reply only after I suddenly realized Maria is the sister of Hernan de Navarrete Corona and not Maria Ana Vargas de Escobar.

Gil Topete

Hello Gil,
Thank you for this link. I have gone through this book several times and missed this and the baptism below it for Agustina Josefa Gonzales Corona.

The writing is a bit difficult to understand, but we are talking about the same family: Jesus (Luis) Navarrete and Luisa Corona. However, in reading it I believe the daughter's name is "Luisa Maria"; even though it says "Maria" in the column. Obviously she is the older sister of Hernando Navarrete. You know some of those women got married in their early teens and continued having children into their 40's. I know a couple who had a son younger than their own great-grandson! Also interesting is the madrina: Marianna Aguayo who baptized her own daughter only a few days later.

As far as Jesus vs. Luis I think it is possible that he went by both. Some people use a Christian or Biblical name along with a given name. When my kids were baptized the priest added Jose and Maria before their names. Its also possible that the when they got married the priest misunderstood "Luis" for "Jesus." I accept they are the same person.

It is very possible that Graciana and Luisa are sisters but until we have definitive proof it remains a "possibility."

Thank you for your help and insight,
Deedra Corona

Gil Topete

Sergio, I too descend from Antonio Feliciano through his son Antonio Jose Martin Michel.
What is uncanny, and perhaps evident to both of you is that both documents Sergfio has provided links to happen to have other Michel information on them.

The first page list the death of Nicolaza Michel in March, while page two lists the death of Michaela.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-6814-12?cc=1874591&wc=…

The following baptism record for Manuela from 1699 reveals the baptism record for Francisco Michel and Michaela Guerrero and their daughter Dominga...is this a coincidence? Or does everyone agree that Michaela Guerro is Michaela Lopez Bueso. If so Sergio, you have your baptism date for Dominga 1699 to 1744.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-58847-34?cc=1874591&wc…

RJ Quiralta

Well they are definitely two different people, time frame says it all, in the first couple, does the kids records mention the full composed name on the parents? the burial just says Michel for him and Hueso for her. Either case I would say that both parties are likely families since the ones in Autlan were from Tecocolotlan too, meaning that the two Franciscos were like you suggested Uncle-Nephew and the wives were likely related too, (Aunt-Niece, Cousins, etc).

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