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Estimado Señores:

Ya por bastante tiempo he tenido interés en esta dama, María de Isla y Moctezuma casada con Andrés Martín Camacho; de aquí proviene las familias Martínez de Sotomayor o Martín de Sotomayor y pues por supuesto los Martín Camacho del Real y Minas de Sierra de Pinos. Quisiera saber si alguien ha probado la línea de María de Isla y Moctezuma, no he podido encontrar nada sobre ésta.

De esta pareja desciendo de su hijo del capitán Isidro Martín de Sotomayor casó a Josefa López de la Cerda hacia 1675 en Aguascalientes o Pinos.

Me pregunto dos cosas: ¿cómo si hay relación con la familias González de Isla o Isla de Nochistlán y porqué utiliza el apellido Moctezuma hay una conexción entre ésta y el emperador azteca?

Les envío mis saludos y gracias antemano,

Daniel Méndez Camino

Danny C. Alonso, Paige Herrera, and Carlos Peredo have provided an arguement that has convinced me that "Benito de Islas I" and "Benito De Islas II" were the same person and that Benito de Isla's father's name of Benardino de Islas contributed to the confusion. After taking in their comments, going through my notes, and doing more research, I have come to believe that Jaime Holcombe was in error with his findings that there were two Benito de Islas having these children. However this research has led me to become more convinced of Jaime Holcombes information regarding Juana Navarro, daughter of Pertonila Moctezuma.

Thank you Danny C. Alonso, Paige Herrera, and Carlos Peredo,

Ricardo A. Ricci

Mr. Ricci, Paige and Carlos,

I do agree that Juana Navarro is the daughter of Petronila Moctezuma. That's the only thing that makes sense regarding the use of Moctezuma by Maria de Isla and her descendants. The Moctezuma was probly used not only to honor her Moctezuma ancestors but also to separate her from her sister, the other Maria de Isla.

Danny C. Alonso

When there are two people with the same name, in the same family, it is easy to confuse which one is which, so it is understandable to see the confusion created by Benito de Isla I and Benito de Isla II. More research is needed to clarify whether there were two or just one. Jaime Holcombe said that there were two but he doesn't provide his source. I believe there are two and feel that the confusion lies in which one is the father. But I wouldn't be shocked if it was proven that there was only one Benito de Isla with having children from two wives causing the confusion.

Jaime Holcombe often provided sources in his work. Jaime provided a source for his claim that Benito de Isla was married to Juana Navarro, daughter of Petronila Moctezuma. He specifically cited her will, a date and location that she was buried, and witnesses to the will. Because of the detail that he provides in his source notes, I do have Juana Navarro as his wife, and the mother of one of the Maria de Islas half sisters.

Rick A. Ricci

Estimados primos
Creo que parte de la confusión alrededor de estos Isla radica en no distinguir que el papá de Benito Isla (papá de María de Isla y de Magdalena de Lavesares) no se llamó Benito, sino Bernardino.
Bernardino tuvo al menos dos hermanos y por lo que se puede investigar los tres eran marineros muy osados y los tres participaron en la conquista de las Filipinas. Trabajando

Trabajando los tres alrededor de Guido Lavezzari, con cuya hermana Magdalena se casó Bernardino. Guido Lavezzari llegó a México en 1536 y por ese año su hermana Magdalena se casa con Bernardino. Guido es enviado a Filipinas en 1542 y se lleva a su cuñado Bernardino y a los hermanos de este : Juan y Diego de Isla. En 1557 Guido es enviado de nuevo a México a donde también regresa su sobrino Benito, hijo de Magdalena y se le menciona como criado de su tío Guido

All this great information is overwhelming to understand so let me add the following to the pile. the Following address is to a manuscript that Guido supposedly wrote and translated by Juan Francisco Maura the link found on wikipedia regarding Guido de Lavezares.

http://parnaseo.uv.es/Lemir/Textos/Maura/Index.htm

I just glance through it and saw that he even went to la Bahia filipinos (hoy Mobile, Alabama). I am amazed at their adventures and travels.

The situation of ages that Danny has trouble with is something that I have I my own family. My daughter was born when I was well into middle age. Most of my siblings had their kids when they were very young. My siblings have grandchildren close to the age of my daughter, with some of them older than her.

Another example of this age disparity is the recent find of marriage record in 1752 of Eusbio Orosco. The bride was a much, much younger half sister of the grooms father.

A third example was the Ruiz de Esparza line between the 1200's to late 1500's. Now that was a line that can be believed only because of records that date everyone along the way. In this line we have an even larger disparity of ages than the ages we see with the Islas lineup

I don't share Danny's confidence in this secondary source.

I believe that More research is needed to clarify the matter of whether there were two or one Benito de Islas, and at this time, I am not convinced that there is only one.
Rick A. Ricci

Mr. Ricci,

i'm not saying that there aren't two Benito de Isla's, there may be. And i agree with you, if there are two benito's, that secondary sources seem to have merged them into one person. And i'm not confident in the secondary sources at all. but, until there is a primary source that proves the secondary sources wrong, then we have to go with what's available. Also this is not a case of a daughter being born when her father was middle age, that's universally common. In fact that fits in more with my theory of an old Peninsular marrying a younger girl in Mexico. In my own tree I have more than a couple of instances where a 50 or 60 year old guy married a 15 or 16 year old girl. It's the Benito I and II theory where the dates don't make sense. If Benito de Isla I had Benito de Isla II around 1560 then Benito de Isla I and his wife would both be born around 1540, maybe her a little later but no later than 1545. Yet, she's giving birth to Benito II in 1560 when she's around 15 and then giving birth to Elvira and Maria de Concepcion in 1610 and 1615 when she's 70 and 75 years old? and of course, maybe its a different wife but again there's no proof of any of these theories so i just go with whatever small amount of secondary sources might be available.

Danny C. Alonso

Danny,

I have done much research on this line. I have some information on this family that I had not posted. But just recently I discoverered that Chris had even more information on this family than what I have in my notes. I hope Chris can shed light on this matter.

Rick A. Ricci

Hi all,

I read the letters of Jaime Holcombe that were provided on the other thread about Benito de Isla and the letters do say there are two Benito de Isla's. They mention how the first Benito de Isla came alone and single and then say, "So how do two sisters suddenly turn up? No way. The following fits in generationwise":

Benito de la Isla y Labesares married N.N.

1. María de la Concepción de Islas, married Juan Delgadillo, a son of Diego Delgadillo and Isabel Calderón.
2. Elvira de Islas, married Joseph González.
3. Benito de Islas, married N.N.

i. María González de Islas, married Cristóbal Martínez Lozano
ii. Magdalena de Labesares, married Francisco González.
iii. Petronila de Islas, who apparently did not marry.

Then, Mr. Holcombe's letters provide the above ancestries and normally I would accept this, but as Danny pointed out there are definitely issues with the dates. Benito de Isla the second is listed #3 among the children of Benito de la Isla y Labesares and N.N., but I agree that Benito de Isla the second is a good 40 to 50 years older than Maria de la Concepcion de Islas and Elvira de Islas, who are said to be his siblings. For this reason, I'm beginning to believe that Danny's theory makes more sense. Either that, or Maria de la Concepcion de Isla and Elvira de Isla are in actuality the children of Benito de Isla the second and, in fact, he does not have any siblings, at least not the 40+ older ones that are being attributed to him. Any thoughts?

Paige

Danny,

What document do we have to clearly establish María de Ysla y Moctezuma as a daughter of Benito de Ysla? I did not see in the two dispensas mentioned in wikiTrees to help support this claim. With WikiTrees one needs to be very careful. People need to remember this is an ancestor to thousands of descendants and must be handled with all caution.

I would love to research more into this line, let me know if your interested.

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Daniel,

the second dispensa on the bottom where the testigos are giving information, Mateo Gonzalez de Rubalcava says: que son bisnietos de dos hermanas que lo fueron doña María de Islas y doña Magdalena de Labezares quien tuvo por hijo a Bernardino de Islas y Bernardino de Islas a Nicolás de Dios Islas y Nicolás de Dios Islas tuvo por hija a María Catarina de Islas. Y de doña María de Islas tuvo por hija a Jacinta Martínez y Jacinta Martínez tuvo por hijo a Jacinto Díaz y Jacinto Díaz tuvo por hijo a José Díaz de León, pretenso.

Danny C. Alonso

Danny,

Looking thru my archives you are absolutely correct. This topic was actually resolved offline a number of years ago with Guillermo Tovar de Teresa. Doña Magdalena de Levazares and Doña María de Isla y Moctezuma are in fact daughters of D. Benito de Isla and (what I have noted) Da. María González de Moctezuma. However, this last González de Montezuma part is not sourced--we need a document, not sure why I did not add a note here.

My next question for the team is, how does another Da. María de Isla, wife of D. Cristóbal Martínez Lozano, Regidor Perpétuo de Zacatecas, who died on 13 May 1646 in Aguascalientes fit into this family tree? If anyone knows pardon the ignorance, I have not studied these lines in some years. Could this María be the same one as the one who married Benito de Isla?

A final thought, our María de Isla y Montezuma and this supposed María González de Montezuma--I almost want to refer to "N. de Moctezuma until we find an absolute document stating otherwise--would bring the line back to ca. 1550. In any attempt to trace this link to Moctezuma II, it could possibly be his granddaughter. Could Petronila de Montezuma and this N. de Montezuma have been cousins? Did they know each other? One question produces three more questions as Guillermo would put it., RIP.

Let the debate begin,

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Daniel,

Benito de Isla had two daughter's that used the name Maria de Isla, both are listed on some dispensas and IM's as sisters to Magdalena de Lavezares. The above dispensa shows that María de Isla married to Andres Martín de Sotomayor is the legitimate daughter of Benito de Isla. And, this IM for Pedro Rodríguez and Petrona de Isla, shows that there is also a María de Isla, mestiza, hija bastarda de Benito de Isla:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-THRY-N

Since we know that there are two María de Isla's, both daughters of Benito de Isla, I think the mestiza María de Isla is the wife of Cristóbal Martínez Lozano.

Danny C. Alonso

"Hija natural" depends on the context. It some sentences it does mean the same thing but in others it does not. In those other cases it means where they were originally from.

I saw one case where it was used to distinguish between biological children and adopted children.

Rick A. Ricci

Hi R.A.,

I'm not being very clear, I guess I know they both mean illegitimate. I guess my question is since I've never seen the term hija bastarda before does it mean the exact same thing or are there some differences in the term?

- Mia

Thanks R.A. Does anyone know what documents point to the María de Isla married to Cristóbal Martín Lozano being the mestiza illegitimate daughter of Benito de Isla. Is it possible that it's the same Maria de Isla that just married twice and could it be the same person as María González de Isla y Moctezuma mentioned earlier?

- Mia

Mia,

I dont know of any actual documents that mention the Maria de Isla married to Cristóbal Martínez Lozano as the mestiza María de Isla, its just my opinion that its the same person because of the fact that there are two María de Islas. And they cant be the same person because because the María de Isla that was married to Andrés Martín de Sotomayor died in 1667:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6S67-DJR

and the María de Isla thats married to Cristóbal Martínez Lozano was already dead by 1650 according to her daughters marriage:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6QQ9-BKP

I don't know of any of these Maria de Isla's being called Maria Gonzalez de Isla y Moctezuma but I think the name Gonzalez de Isla would be formed with the marriage of Benito de Isla's daughter Magdalena de Labesares and Francisco Gonzalez.

Danny C. Alonso

Hi Danny,

The Maria de Isla married to Cristobal Martinez Lozano is already identified as a sister of Magdalena de Labezares and Petrona de Isla by Armando on this thread for Benito de Isla when he discusses the letters of Jaime Holcombe and Mary Lou Montagna.

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/22972

The letters then discuss the mestiza Maria de Isla, hija bastarda, of Benito de Isla. But, since we already know that the Maria de Isla married to Andres Martin de Sotomayor is a legitimate daughter of Benito de Isla, I do agree that the hija bastarda is most likely, the one married to Cristobal Martinez Lozano.

Chris

Hi all,

I have a question regarding the sisters of Maria de Isla y Moctezuma and the number of Benito de Isla's. On the link to the other thread that Chris provided above this post, there is a mention of these female de Isla's and their general time frame given by Manny:

Maria Concepcion de Islas: b. 1600-1610
Elvira de Islas: b ?
Madalena de Lavezares: b. late-1580’s
Maria de Islas y Moctezuma: b. 1600
Maria de Islas Mestiza: b. ?
Maria de Islas (m. Cristobal Lozano): b. 1580’s
Petronila de Islas (su hermana): ca 1600 or before

I think the timeline above is generally close. Although, based on the grandchildren's marriages, I think Maria de la Concepcion de Islas and Elvira de Islas were born after 1610. But, my question is, are the above de Isla women all the daughters of Benito de Isla II or are some the daughters of Benito de Isla I. And, is there even a difference between Benito de Isla I and II? Because I have seen Maria de la Concepcion de Islas and Elvira de Islas as children of Benito de Islas I and N.N. But, if that's true and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma and Magdalena de Lavesares are the daughter of Benito de Isla II, why are they older than their aunts? Possibly, a lot older. Which although possible, seems unlikely.

Paige

There has been much confusion regarding this family because many secondary sources had merged the two Benito de Islas into one person. I believe that research has shown them to be two people and this thread has contributed to unscrambling this mess. I do believe that some aunts are younger than their nieces. More research is needed to clarify dates.

Rick A. Ricci

Paige,

i agree with you about the timeline and that Maria Concepcion de islas and Elvira de islas are definitely born after their own alleged aunts (Maria de Isla y Moctezuma and Magdalena de Labezares). And, i agree both Elvira de islas and Maria Concepcion de islas, supposed children of Benito de Isla I, were born around 1610 or later. Elvira de isla's grandaughter Manuela Gonzalez married in 1731 which puts her birth around 1710. One hundred years between the birth of grandmother and grandaughter is a long time. Maria concepcion de islas was probly born closer to 1610 but still probly after, closer to 1615. this is one of my main reasons for using just one Benito de Isla for now. If there is more evidence I can always add another one, but for now this makes more sense to me. I'm not saying there isn't a Benito de Isla II, son of Benito de Isla I, im just saying if Benito de Isla II was born around 1560 and having kids in the 1580s, it doesn't make sense that his father Benito I is having children in 1615, certainly not with the same woman that gave birth to Benito de Isla II, where she'd be close to 70 years old. Plus, there are secondary sources that suggest that Benito de Isla I is the father of Magdalena Labezares and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma. Like this passage in this book about Mexticacan by Francisco Sandoval López: "Benito de Islas, originario de Sevilla y sus nietos Diego y Bernardino González de Islas se establecieron en Nangué (hoy Cañada de Islas)." The Diego and Bernardino González de Islas mentioned in this book are the children of Magdalena Labezares, daughter of Benito de Isla. But this passage would suggest that Magdalena Labezares was the daughter of Benito de Isla I, because he would be the one from Seville and Benito de Isla II would most likely be born in Nochistlán. this is another reason i'm just using one Benito de Isla for now. of course, these are not primary sources, but so far there aren't any that contradict this as far as I can tell. The truth is there are timeline issues either way. But, ive seen many more instances of old Peninsulares marrying much younger women than I have of women having children over 60 years old. But i also agree with Manny Diez that there are dispensation issues with this family.

Danny C. Alonso

buenas tardes a todo los presentes

han tenido alguna novedad sobre la ascendencia de maria de isla Moctezuma
o relación con el emperador Moctezuma ll ?

realmente en los testamento de ellos
en el testamento de maria de yslas Sotomayor en el cual se mencionan a sus padres y son andres martin de Sotomayor y doña maria de yslas y Moctezuma difunto y viuda de capitán augustin lopez de la serda este testamento es de la fecha 12-03 -1716

y en el otro testamento con fecha del 06-11-1721 también se hace la misma mención

hay otro testamento de un hijo de ellos andres martin Camacho hijo lejitimo de andres martin Camacho y de maria de las ruelas el casado con Beatriz de Mayorga.

y en el matrimonio el 3 junio de 1667 en Aguascalientes img 24 de augustin lopez de la cerda y maria de isla hija de andres martin y maria de isla pero en este no se menciona Moctezuma

hay una dispensa de grado de consanguinidad esta en Guadalajara diócesis gdl 1694-1796 en img 537 a 544 de santigo lopez de la serda y maria ana negrete viudad de Josep moreno sotomaior en este documento se mencionan a maria de isla moctessuma e isidro martin como hermanos

espero y muy pronto podamos encontrar el origen de maria de isla Moctezuma y su relación con los ruelas

agradezco la atención prestada
que tengan un excelente dia
saludos

Daniel,
Algo que considero bien importante considerar son los siguientes datos respecto al origen de Maria de Isla y Sotomayor como lo indica en su testamento:
1) Orginaria de la jurisdiccion del Real de Minas de Santa Maria de Pinos .
2) Luego fue vecina de Santa Maria de los Lagos, donde residia su esposo el Capitan Agustin Lopez de la Serda (originario de Teocaltiche).
3) Finalmente residente de la Villa de la Asuncion de Aguascalientes cuando escribe su testamento.

De igual forma en el testamento de Simona Lopez (de la Serda Rodriguez), indica que es originaria de San Luis Potosi, y casada con Nicolas Martin de Sotomayor originario de Pinos.

De forma que ademas de Nochistlan, quiza deberiamos tambien buscar el origen de Maria de Isla y Moctezuma en Pinos, Zacatecas.

Saludos

Jaime Alvarado

Estimado Don Guillermo y Daniel,
Recientemente hubo un intercambio respecto a Maria de Isla y Moctezuma, se concluyo que la asociacion de el apellido 'Moctezuma' con Maria de Isla habia sido el invento de algun genealogista. Curiosamente, al estar transcribiendo el testamento de Maria de Isla y Sotomayor, esposa del Capitan Agustin Lopez de la Cerda, fechado el 12-03-76 (#98 en la lista de Paco Romo) encontre lo siguiente: "...hija del Capitan Andres Martin y Sotomayor y de Maria de Isla y Moctezuma...".

Saludos

Jaime Alvarado

Es verdad Jaime, realmente el testamento si dice Moctesuma. Abrimos el tema de nuevo.
Mi pregunta es porque Isla y Moctezuma. Hay filacion al emperador azteca? Como
o que es el vinculo entre esta Maria y los Isla de Nochistlan? Estos son mis preguntos
ahora. Necesitariamos estudiar los principios de Nochistlan y la familia Isla muy cuidadosamente.

Daniel Méndez Camino

Eso de Maria de Isla y Moctezuma es un invento de algún genealogista ecuménico. Existen varias María de Isla en Nochistlán, vinculadas con Guido de Lavezares y Benito de Isla, pero me gustaría ver un solo documento antiguo que mencione ese nombre asociado al apellido Moctezuma.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de mendezdelcamino@live.com
Enviado el: Viernes, 18 de Febrero de 2011 11:58 a.m.
Para: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] María de Isla y Moctezuma

Estimado Señores:

Ya por bastante tiempo he tenido interés en esta dama, María de Isla y Moctezuma casada con Andrés Martín Camacho; de aquí proviene las familias Martínez de Sotomayor o Martín de Sotomayor y pues por supuesto los Martín Camacho del Real y Minas de Sierra de Pinos. Quisiera saber si alguien ha probado la línea de María de Isla y Moctezuma, no he podido encontrar nada sobre ésta.

De esta pareja desciendo de su hijo del capitán Isidro Martín de Sotomayor casó a Josefa López de la Cerda hacia 1675 en Aguascalientes o Pinos.

Me pregunto dos cosas: ¿cómo si hay relación con la familias González de Isla o Isla de Nochistlán y porqué utiliza el apellido Moctezuma hay una conexción entre ésta y el emperador azteca?

Les envío mis saludos y gracias antemano,

Daniel Méndez Camino

Estimado Guillermo:

Gracias. Eso puede explicar porque nunca encontré nada sobre ella. Más bien es María de Isla ningún conexción con Moctezuma. Lo suprimiré de mis archivos. Ahora me pregunto de nuevo a cuanto la comprobación de la ascendencia de María de Isla. Si es de Nochistlán qual de ésas María de Isla es ella y como está vínculada con Guido de Lavezares, mi antepasada.

Daniel Méndez Camino

Estimado Daniel:

Es muy compleja la ascendencia de Maria de Isla, mal estudiada por Vásquez y
Durán. Existe un pase a Indias donde el famoso Guido de Lavezares,
Gobernador de Filipinas, pasa con los Isla a Nueva España (entre ellos
Benito de Isla). Te adelanto esto por el momento.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Méndez Camino
Enviado el: Viernes, 18 de Febrero de 2011 12:43 p.m.
Para: Nuestros Ranchos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] María de Isla y Moctezuma

Estimado Guillermo:

Gracias. Eso puede explicar porque nunca encontré nada sobre ella. Más bien
es María de Isla ningún conexción con Moctezuma. Lo suprimiré de mis
archivos. Ahora me pregunto de nuevo a cuanto la comprobación de la
ascendencia de María de Isla. Si es de Nochistlán qual de ésas María de Isla
es ella y como está vínculada con Guido de Lavezares, mi antepasada.

Daniel Méndez Camino

Hola Buen Día. No creo que sea ningún invento de algún genealogista, simplemente no se ha encontrado documentos que valide su relación con la familia Moctezuma. Pero si existe documento en el que se menciona a María de Isla y Moctezuma, que es en Testamento de su Hija María de Isla y Sotomayor o María Martín de Sotomayor y de Isla o María Martínez de Sotomayor Isla. En dicho documento se menciona lo siguiente:
"...sepan cuantos esta carta de mi testamento ultima y final voluntad viesen como yo Doña Maria de Isla y Sotomayor originaria de la Jurisdicción del Real y Minas de San Mathias Sierra de Pinos, i vecina de la Villa de Santa Maria de los Lagos y Residente en esta Nta. Señora de la Asupcion de Aguas Calientes hija lejitima de el Capn Andres Martin de Soto Mayor y de Doña Maria de Ysla y Moctesuma difuntos viuda del Capn Augustin Lopes de la Serda..."
Aquí te dejo la fuente:
http://eservicios.aguascalientes.gob.mx/seggob/acervodigital/bienvenido…
http://sigue.aguascalientes.gob.mx/axweb/DocView.aspx?ParamEnc=28%3aD07…
Aquí encontraras el documento que lo menciona.

Jean,

María de Isla y Moctezuma is the daughter of Benito de Isla and an unknown girl:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Islas-22

The unknown girl is probly the one with the Moctezuma connection. There's a thread about Benito de Isla that says other sites say he was married to a Juana Navarro who they say was a daughter of Petronila de Moctezuma, but, they don't give any proof but you can read it here:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/22972

Danny C. Alonso

Genealogy Research