Maria,

Thanks for your response. I only wish I was more computer literate so I could produce PDFs and copyright them. I thought you had just made that tree of yours in Rootsweb private somehow.

My only defense right now is to keep all my trees on Ancestry as Private and not Public. I will continue to monitor the other trees of mine on Rootsweb and see if anyone else lifts the information verbatim---yes, just like they did with yours, I know it is mine since I posted every detail of it that no one else has except my cousins, but I monitor their trees to make sure they get everything correct and that they keep their trees Private, since they insist on using the robot software on Ancestry to create their trees. I told them that other genealogy programs work the same and are just as easy and no one can download them if they are only on their computers, but again, Ancestry.com makes it too easy.

I am so discouraged about the use of Family Tree Maker that Ancestry and Rootsweb uses. It is a monstrous software that makes it too easy for novices or people with an agenda like the one who downloaded my tree and uploaded it again merged with someone else's. I told that person that I will never upload any more of my trees, and she said "Oh, so you don't want to share?" Not if people are going to corrupt my information. Her file has a note that says that any errors in her tree are the original researchers!! Arrrrgh. From now on my trees will stay on the PAF genealogy program in my computer, and maybe Arturo can fix my tree on NR so no one can download it and create a new public file out of it somewhere else.

I have received so much help in developing my trees from excellent researchers in Mexico and the US that belong to NR. Some have shared their trees with me because we have common ancestors, and they taught me how to work PAF and they merged their trees with mine so I could download them to my computer which was fine with me because it was a mutual collaboration we both agreed on.

Thanks again,

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:19:57 -0800
> From: mcortez3@gmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pirateria en datos genealogicos.
>
> Emily,
>
> I learned something from your post too because I don't use Ancestry. I
> wasn't aware of the trolling robots used there. The only place I've posted
> any of my work is on NR. I did so because I want to collaborate with others
> who are researching the same families I am. The person who took the liberty
> of posting my info is not related to my family and I know that because the
> tree ends after x number of generations. I am also certain that they copied
> my tree because they included an error I had in my original file, which I
> later corrected. I don't know who it is because I didn't bother trying to
> contact that individual. All I know is that they published it under the
> name Daniel the Actor. Ironic, isn't it?
>
> What I did to "protect" my file is publish it as a PDF and password protect
> the print, copy and paste functions. I figured this way only someone who is
> really researching the same families I am will take the time to contact me
> and not merely copy my work to append it to theirs. I realize the
> individual documents are public domain, but the compilation of the tree is
> not. You've worked on your family tree for years, the old-fashioned way
> like I did, and know how much time and effort it takes to put it together.
> It's a real labor of love. I do believe in sharing, but I also believe in
> respect for others. Let's not discourage other researchers from sharing
> their work by taking what took years to put together without their
> permission or at least a "thank you". These people are not hoarders or they
> wouldn't be on NR.
>
> Emily, thanks for sharing your expertise about how Ancestry works. It's
> much appreciated.
>
> Maria Cortez
>
> > ------------------------------
>

Maria---I read your post with interest because even though I can't understand all the Spanish, the word "Rootsweb" jumped out at me. I had the unfortunate experience with my husband's Garcia tree (Garcia from Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco)
appearing on Rootsweb's World Connect in a new file created by someone I did not know. Her e-mail address appeared in italics in light print (you can hardly read it) so I e-mailed her and asked her if she was related. She was not in any way. She is a Mormon who has been looking for her father whose surname is Garcia. She never knew him.

The tree I posted to Nuestros Ranchos is the same as the one I had posted to Ancestry.com and WorldConnect (Rootsweb) because I didn't have PAF on my computer yet. Arturo posted it for me on NR because I couldn't figure out how to do it. So the lady didn't take my tree from NR since she is not a member here.

So I asked her why she would take my husband's tree exactly as I had made it, and merge it in a new tree of her making with that of another Garcia to whom she is not related either. She said she is a "Garcia researcher" who is trying to help the LDS church, that for her it is church work, that all those trees on Ancestry.com and Rootsweb that have dead ends, they have been charged with finding further generations through the use of Ancestry.com's Family Tree software.

That software is a trolling robot, that brings up "possible connections" (on Ancestry trees you see a shaking leaf), and so it changed my husband's ancestor Jose Cayetano Garcia who was born in Jalisco in the 1700s, to a Jose Canteo Garcia who was born in San Diego, California in the 1700s. I told this "researcher" to delete her file, that she corrupted not only my tree but that of the one who put up the other one who is not in the least related to my husband's ancestors. I contacted that other Garcia descendant who told me there is nothing we can do as long as the technology allows anyone to pull over information and create new files.

I asked the lady who pirated my tree to delete that incorrect file of hers, and she refused, saying that Rootsweb and Ancestry.com are public access, that everyone does it, and that she wasn't creating a tree but only a list of all the Garcias she can find on the internet, and that everyone where she is is doing the same, and how dare I ask her to delete her file. I failed to make her realize what damage that Family Tree software is doing to peoples' trees when it merges unrelated lines. She called me stupid, and unknowledgeable about genealogy!!

So, I have warned all my cousins and new people here to make their trees private on Ancestry.com, and to not believe the "shaking leaves" since only the name is the same or similar but the location and birthdates are way off. Many of my cousins think that Ancestry has all the information and they don't research, they just copy what others have done or they click on the shaking leaves and make the "Possible connection" theirs without checking with me. I don't know what is going on, but Ancestry.com offices are in Utah, same as Family Search and the LDS. I wonder if they are collaborating for some reason, and as a result people who think they are "helping" are just making a mess of trees.

I think you said in your e-mail that you "protegí mi archivo para que no tan facilmente puedan copiar los datos y recorté varias generaciones de mi arbol. Tambien decidí no incluir mis fuentes". How can I protect my trees, etc. like you did? Is there some way to make them private like you can on Ancestry.com? Ancestry.com bought out Rootsweb, and they have been buying up many databases that used to be free online, but on their website you have to pay for a subscription now. I do notice that Family Search.org does sometimes try to point folks to links to websites for censuses and military, etc that are still free.

Thanks,

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:52:16 -0800
> From: mcortez3@gmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pirateria en datos genealogicos.
>
> Jorge Luis,
>
> De ninguna manera cae mal tu mensaje. A mi me ha pasado lo mismo con mi
> linea de los de la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza. La trabajé por mucho tiempo y
> lo publiqué aquí en Nuestros Ranchos con todas mis fuentes para luego
> encontrarla publicada en Rootsweb sin mi permiso o mención a mi trabajo. Yo
> por mi parte cuando alguien comparte datos conmigo, primeramente anoto a la
> persona como fuente de esa información. Asi no se me olvida de donde la
> recibí. Si la voy a compartir con alguien mas, primero le pregunto a la
> persona que la compartió permiso para hacerlo y le doy el credito a la
> persona. Hay que tenernos respeto y no abusar de la generosidad de la
> persona que comparte su trabajo. Despues de encontrar mis datos publicados
> en Rootsweb, protegí mi archivo para que no tan facilmente puedan copiar
> los datos y recorté varias generaciones de mi arbol. Tambien decidí no
> incluir mis fuentes.
>
> Existen varios genealogistas en este foro que son de los mas destacados en
> esta materia que me han dicho que ya no publican nada en el foro por este
> motivo. Como tu lo dices, se pierde el animo al ver su trabajo pirateado
> por otras personas sin darles el credito que se merecen.
>
> Maria Cortez
> Sacramento, CA
>
> > ------------------------------
> > From: Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez
> > To: Nuestros Ranchos
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pirater?a en datos geneal?gicos.
> > Message-ID:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > Hace d?as le? en un mensaje del se?or Guillermo Tovar de Teresa que se
> > deten?a en publicar algunos datos geneal?gicos en nuestro foro porque
> > existen varias personas que se "piratean" los datos obtenidos por los dem?s
> > con mucho trabajo y esfuerzo. Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con el se?or
> > Tovar porque a mi me pas? en una ocasi?n, la verdad es que yo no tengo
> > mucho tiempo para dedicar a mi hobbie que es la genealog?a y por tanto a lo
> > mejor no aporto muchos datos de inter?s para el grupo, pero recuerdo una
> > ocasi?n haber dado a conocer los datos de que el genearca de los V?zquez de
> > Lara y V?zquez Zerme?o de los Altos de Jalisco se hac?a llamar Juan V?zquez
> > de Perea y hasta les di la fuente de mi hallazgo y me ha tocado ver en
> > algunas p?ginas y genealog?as de algunos que ya tienen ese dato que yo di y
> > adem?s tienen hasta mi genealog?a en sus p?ginas y no me dan el
> > reconocimiento debido ni a mi, ni mucho menos citan la fuente de donde se
> > tom? el dato. Creo que si es un poco desanima
> > dor el ver estos casos para poder ayudarnos unos a otros. Debemos dar el
> > m?rito a quien se merece darle el reconocimiento.
> >
> > Debemos "educarnos" para as? poder aportar los datos que creemos puedan
> > servir a los dem?s, pero eso si, recibiendo el m?rito debido. Espero no
> > caer mal con este mensaje, pero estoy en total acuerdo con el se?or Tovar.
> > Apoy?monos unos a otros, dando a cada quien lo que se merece.
> >
> > Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez.
> > Tepatitl?n de Morelos, Jalisco, M?xico.
> >
> >
> >
> >

¿Ideas? Una muy simple: ética.

Ética, seriedad y puntualidad.

Evitar que NR se convierta en un facebook genealógico, donde la gente
utiliza la página para enviar recados personales, destinados a fomentar la
vanidad del otro con el disfraz de un agradecimiento. Muy personales y sin
ningún interés para la comunidad. Si desean lucirse con elogios, que lo
hagan en correos ordinarios, pero no para impresionar a los miembros de NR.

Puntualidad para señalar las fuentes utilizadas o el nombre de la persona
que ofrece la información de manera seria y original.

Respetar el trabajo del otro, su tiempo empleado. Su experiencia y sus
conocimientos.

Citar las aportaciones de quienes ofrecen bloques de información, tales como
índices de archivos, extractos o fuentes de utilidad general. Eso sin tener
que convertir a sus realizadores en casos de ejemplaridad moral, de
reconocimiento demandante ni autoridad fundada en la idea que tienen de sí
mismos. Modestia, no ejemplaridad.

En suma, ser útiles los unos para los otros. Sin abusos ni necesidad de
reconocimiento.

Ética. Simplemente.

Saludos

GTT

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de
lina@world-class.com.mx
Enviado el: Jueves, 19 de Enero de 2012 09:10 a.m.
Para: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pirateria en datos genealogicos

Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con todo lo dicho y no lo repetire, y los
felicito por tocar el tema, pero como se resuelve? Como lograr que los dos
caballeros que necesitan educarse lo hagan? Algunos sabemos quienes son. En
general los miembros de NR somos personas respetuosas, educadas, bien
intencionadas, y quienes con gusto daremos el credito y agradecimiento a
quien corresponda por la ayuda recibida.
El problema es la ambicion de reconocimiento que tienen y obtienen estos
dos, que no toman en cuenta a los demas. Aunque la informacion ya sea del
dominio publico mientras Family Search quiera, es mucho el tiempo y esfuerzo
que se ocupa localizando datos. El tiempo es lo mas valioso que tenemos.
Nunca podremos recuperarlo.
Aunque expongamos sus nombres, no veo forma de impedir su acceso al
resultado de nuestros esfuerzos. Posiblemente compartiendo informacion de
manera privada por email, pero entonces se desvirtua el proposito del foro.
Ideas?

Absolutely agree with what's been said, won't repeat, congratulate you on
bringing up the subject, but how can it be solved? How do you get the two
gentlemen who need to educate themselves to do it? Some of us know who they
are. Generally speaking, NR members are respectful, educated, well-meaning
people, who will gladly appreciate and give credit to whom it is due.
The problem is these two thrive on adulation and acknowledgment, and have no
regard for others. While Family Search information is now and for as long as
they want in public domain, there is a lot of time and effort involved in
finding it. Time is our most valuable asset. We can never get it back.
Even if we expose their names, I don't see how to prevent their access to
the outcome of our efforts. Perhaps sharing information privately by email,
but that would defeat the whole purpose of this forum. Any ideas?

Angelina Casillas

Hola a todos,

Yo solamente quisiera comentar que me identifico bastante con la descripción que el Sr. Guillermo ha hecho sobre el Genealogista enfocado en su propia historia familiar. Quizás nunca me vean involucrado en la búsqueda de otras ramas genealógicas que no sean la mía (no tengo madera de historiador), pero cualquier dato, ayuda, tiempo, o información que Yo pueda proporcionar al grupo o miembros, créanme que lo daré con mucho gusto. No soy egoísta ni individualista y me gusta compartir la poca información que hasta el momento he encontrado, viéndolo bien creo que hasta tengo ganas de que algún miembro de este grupo tenga algun ancestro en común conmigo y pueda usar la informacion en mi arbol genealogico. A la misma vez tiene bastante razón el Sr. Jorge Luis, es "muy bonito" cuando alguien te da las Gracias y reconoce tu esfuerzo y tiempo invertido. Hay un dicho que dice… “Hay que dar sin esperar nada a cambio”, muy cierto, debemos ayudar y contribuir desinteresadamente, pero seamos honestos, a cuántos de nosotros nos gustaría pasar la vida dando y contribuyendo sin ni siquiera recibir un simple “Muchas Gracias”? No hablo de que al ayudar a alguien, esa persona este eternamente en deuda contigo, Yo en lo personal me conformaria con un simple... "Muchas Gracias". Un reconocimiento nos ayuda a "hecharle mas ganas", recordemos cuanta alegria y motivacion nos daba en la escuela cuando el Maestro o Director delante de los demas alumnos reconcia nuestro trabajo y esfuerzo, o cuando en tu lugar de trabajo "el Patron" te dice..."bien hecho, buen trabajo".

Saludos,
Roberto Hdez

I totally agree with you Claudia.

I do think we shall give the credit to the discoverer. I know how much effort and time we need to sacrifice in order to obtain what we want, but as you said, this information isn't private, it's for all of us. I respect the decision of either publishing a book or on the internet but we need to share what we have, someday we'll be rewarded by receiving help from others and people won't stop in topics that are already discovered, they'll continue to other ones and it'll be faster.

Enrique Agraz

Couldn't have said it any better Claudia.

Thanks,
Alicia

________________________________
From: "claudiacasillas@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:11 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Piracy?

We are living in the information age. All of us researchers must face the fact that any information we uncover does not belong to us (the researcher). While we may currently have documents or information no one else has--that same information will soon be made available to the masses one way or another. I wholeheartedly agree that we should give credit where credit is due; if someone took the time and effort to uncover something that has helped your search--THANK AND ACKNOWLEDGE THEM. But I also think that the "hoarding" mentality is counterproductive to our research and legacy.

Think about how many "ahas" happen here when someone shares a bit of the puzzle...and then someone else shares their own little bit of the puzzle...then (and we've seen this), a whole landscape has been painted by our collective work.  We should face it, we don't own anything individually--we own it collectively because it is our heritage. Not "mine," but "ours."
How high would your documented family tree look right now if the LDS hoarded the microfilms? Yes, they charged in the past to cover operating costs (I suppose), but now they are FREE to all of us. How would you feel if they shut down FamilySearch and decide only "certain people" can have access?  Let's work together for the greater good and leave a real and lasting legacy for generations to come.

My two cents.

Saludos,
Claudia
www.guadalajaradispensas.com
www.sagradamitra.com

I agree... sharing is the key to adding more and more branches to a family tree!

Kudos to you Claudia, I enjoyed reading your "two cents." 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

----- Original Message -----
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:11:16 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Piracy?

We are living in the information age. All of us researchers must face the fact that any information we uncover does not belong to us (the researcher). While we may currently have documents or information no one else has--that same information will soon be made available to the masses one way or another. I wholeheartedly agree that we should give credit where credit is due; if someone took the time and effort to uncover something that has helped your search--THANK AND ACKNOWLEDGE THEM. But I also think that the "hoarding" mentality is counterproductive to our research and legacy.

Think about how many "ahas" happen here when someone shares a bit of the puzzle...and then someone else shares their own little bit of the puzzle...then (and we've seen this), a whole landscape has been painted by our collective work.  We should face it, we don't own anything individually--we own it collectively because it is our heritage. Not "mine," but "ours."

How high would your documented family tree look right now if the LDS hoarded the microfilms? Yes, they charged in the past to cover operating costs (I suppose), but now they are FREE to all of us. How would you feel if they shut down FamilySearch and decide only "certain people" can have access?  Let's work together for the greater good and leave a real and lasting legacy for generations to come.

My two cents.

Saludos,
Claudia
www.guadalajaradispensas.com
www.sagradamitra.com