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Por ElCapitanPaco |

Following up and branching off from Nuestros Ranchos thread http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18719?page=1

I thought this merited FRONT PAGE NEWS.

In that thread, Sr. Alex Mercado said he "just stumbled upon a marriage record for a Francisco Gutierrez married to a Juana Lomelin https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-1165-18?cc=1874591&wc=…

He said he was finding a lot of Guadalajara marriage records in this set 1640's - mid 1650's, which indeed there are and none which are searchable on FamilySearch.org.

In fact let me just re-post these last couple entries of the above mentioned thread

Thank you very much for sharing.
__________________________

Wonderful job Luigi (aka Alex Mercado)...WOW!!!!

You indeed found the marriage of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo and Juana de Lomelín, ancestors to many of us!!! I am stunned...jaw on the floor.

I verified the date, 21 Nov 1652, and it fits. Records indicate that Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo and Juana de Lomelín began having children right around 1651-1652. We will have to re-calculate the ages of their children in light of this very concrete marriage date, 21 November 1652.

Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo and Juana de Lomelín - 21 Noviembre 1652, Guadalajara

"Fran.co gutiéres, doña Ju.a Lomelín ----- En veinte y vno de noviembre de Sinqu.ta y dos su señoría Yllustríssima desposó y veló, a Fran.co gutiérres Y a doña Juana Lomelí Y assistí Yo al dicho oficio, testigos don Fran.co rincón Y don manuel gallardo. . . . Fran.co Gallegos (rúbrica) Sacristán m.or "

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Sagrario Metropolitano, Defunciones 1641-1730 [Image 67 of 733]

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-1165-18?cc=1874591&wc=…

I immediately began to transcribe it, copy the source, download the image, and insert the data and image in my family tree. Unfortunately, literally no valuable data can be gleaned from the meager record. It does not mention where they were from or even the fact that Juana was the widow of Rodrigo de Carbajal. Nothing!

Then I searched this marriage document in FamilySearch.org and nothing. So the marriages located amongst these burials are not on the FamilySearch database. We're going to have to go fishing.

Muchas muchas gracias
Tu primo Paco
Steven Francisco Hernández Gamiño y López de los Reyes

hank you very much for this valuable information, I am descended from his son Lazaro and Ines de la Mora or Samora not stop us this good news.
Cheers

Hello everyone, it's me again.

Sorry to be posting so much lately, but it's summer and this year I have been researching and documenting the various sources in one of my Gutiérrez Rubio and González de Hermosillo lines. My summer project began by searching through the early burials of San Juan de los Lagos, which sifted over to Jalostotitlán. I was, and still kind of am, "old school, I had researched these years ago on Microfilms way back when you had to actually go to a Family History Center and order them from Salt Lake City and were available for only a couple of weeks, unless you renewed them long-term. I would record dates, names, places, and sources, but for the volume of Microfilms and towns and years, but I couldn't get all the copies of everything I wanted. But since the Microfilms were made available online some years back, I have been busy researching in a myriad of towns gathering sources, when I have time on vacation.

Since these are some of the most prominent patriarchal lines in Los Altos, I figured lots of you would appreciate this info.
____________________________________________________

I'm pretty sure that all of you serious Alteño genealogists have this source in your notes already, but I thought it would be nice to share anyway.

On 6 May 1682, our direct ancestor, and his brother the priest, signed in their own hand at the bottom of the left-hand side page..."Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo". And directly to the left is the signature of his brother, el Bachiller Lázaro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (he appears in the 1649 and 1650 Padrones). Two brothers' signatures side by side. Very cool.

Below is a transcription of his statement and the source.

[Image 80 of 614]
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18409-28727-41?cc=1874591&wc…

Declaración y firma de Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo - 6 Nov 1682, La Hacienda de Mezcala, Zapotlanejo

"En la dha Hazienda de Mexcala Jur.ón de tZapotlán en los dhos seis días del mes de Noviembre de mill y seiscientos y ochenta y dos años; para la informazión que offrece el dho Benito Muños de la barva press.tó ante mí, por ttestigo a Francisco Gutiérrez de Hermosillo Vez.o desta dha Jur.ón al qual rezeví Juram.to que lo que supiere y le fuere preguntado diga; so cargo del qual prometió decir V.d fuele preguntado si conoçe al dho Benito Muños de la Barva y a Estephanía de Quesada; si save que sean libres y solteros para poder contraher el matrimonio que pretenden; si save que ayan echo Votos de castidad o rreligión; o sean cassados; o ayan dado palabra de cassam.to; o sean parientes affines o consanguíneos lo diga; si save qual sea la causa por que pretenden dispensaçión de amonestaciones; y si la dha estephanía de quesada es Vez.a de más a.s de S.n Juan a ttodo lo qual responde y diçe que conoçe a los sus dhos por que los vido naçer y criar y que save no ser parientes por ninguna vía ni manera; ni save aigan hecho voto de rreligión o de castidad, ni ser parientes por ningún camino y que la causa de pedir y supp.car as su illustrísima dispense en las Vanas es por rezelo de que no quieren sus hermanos por detrimento de sus personas; so cargo del Juram.to que hiço a Dios N. S.r y a la señal de la S.ta cruz diçe ser esta la Ver.d de lo que dho ttiene en que se affirmó y rratificó y ser el dho Benito Muños de la barva su primo hermano deste tt.o no por esso dexó de deçir la V.d en ttodo lo que dho ttiene declaró ser de edad de sesenta y ocho años pocos más, y lo firmó conmigo dho Juez = . . . B.r Lázaro Gutiérrez de hermozillo (rúbrica) . . . Fran.co gutiérres rubio de hermosillo (rúbrica) . . .
Ante mí
Fran.co Agúndiz (rúbrica)
N.o N.do"

A base de la edad de poco más de 68 años de edad que declara en la fecha de 6 de noviembre de 1682 (1682-68=1614), se puede calcular que nació en 1614 o antes. Es razonable entonces deducir que nació razonablemente entre 1610 y 1614. Francisco menciona que es primo hermano del pretenso Benito Muñoz de la Barba. El padre de Francisco y la madre de Benito eran hermanos. Simplifiqué aquí su parentesco:

Tronco . . . . . . . . [Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio I & Ana González Florida I]
. . . . . . . [Miguel Gutiérrez Rubio] . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . [Catalina González de la Reguera]
. . . . . . . [+Leonor de Hermosillo] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [+Francisco Muñoz de la Barba]
. . Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo . . 2 . . . . . . . Benito Muñoz de la Barba

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1689-1698, 1796 [Image 80 of 614]

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18409-28727-41?cc=1874591&wc…
________________________________________________

Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo (aka Francisco Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio, or just Francisco Gutiérrez), born ca. 1610-1614, married to Juana de Lomelín are also my ancestors. I descend from their daughter Leonor de Hermosillo, married ca. 1676, to Juan de la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza.

And for those of you who like signatures, I also have in my notes the signature of Juan de la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza, son-in-law of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo. Juan de la Mora’s signature is on the left page, and as added bonus, on the right page is the signature of Lucas Romero de Chávez, husband of Petronila González de Hermosillo (daughter of Juan González de Hermosillo III, and niece of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo). Lucas Romero is precisely the one person in world history after whom Mezcala de los Romero was named. It was Lucas…he was “THE” Romero!!!

Firmas de Juan de la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza & Lucas Romero de Chávez - 12 Diciembre 1708, Tepatitlán

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-2683-12?cc=1874591&wc=…

(I try to maintain very detailed notes now.)

Well primos, I hope this is helpful to you all.

SFHL

Great job primo Estevan, you set a great example in your attention to
details such as citing your sources, checking, double checking and triple
checking and sharing your findings with those who want and need to know.

My hat off to you and your extreme patience and diligence!!

Felicidades por tu gran esfuerzo y tus grandes logros.

Alicia

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:52 PM, wrote:

> Hello everyone, it's me again. Sorry to be posting so much lately, but it's
> summer and this year I have been researching and documenting the various
> sources in one of my Gutiérrez Rubio and González de Hermosillo lines. My
> summer project began by searching through the early burials of San Juan de
> los Lagos, which sifted over to Jalostotitlán. I was, and still kind of am,
> "old school, I had researched these years ago on Microfilms way back when
> you
> had to actually go to a Family History Center and order them from Salt Lake
> City and were available for only a couple of weeks, unless you renewed them
> long-term. I would record dates, names, places, and sources, but for the
> volume of Microfilms and towns and years, but I couldn't get all the copies
> of everything I wanted. But since the Microfilms were made available online
> some years back, I have been busy researching in a myriad of towns
> gathering
> sources, when I have time on vacation. Since these are some of the most
> prominent patriarchal lines in Los Altos, I figured lots of you would
> appreciate this info. ____________________________________________________
> I'm pretty sure that all of you serious Alteño genealogists have this
> source
> in your notes already, but I thought it would be nice to share anyway. On 6
> May 1682, our direct ancestor, and his brother the priest, signed in their
> own hand at the bottom of the left-hand side page..."Francisco Gutiérrez
> Rubio y Hermosillo". And directly to the left is the signature of his
> brother, el Bachiller Lázaro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (he appears in the
> 1649 and 1650 Padrones). Two brothers' signatures side by side. Very cool.
> Below is a transcription of his statement and the source. [Image 80 of 614]
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18409-28727-41?cc=1874591&wc…
> Declaración y firma de Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo - 6 Nov 1682,
> La Hacienda de Mezcala, Zapotlanejo "En la dha Hazienda de Mexcala Jur.ón
> de
> tZapotlán en los dhos seis días del mes de Noviembre de mill y seiscientos
> y ochenta y dos años; para la informazión que offrece el dho Benito Muños
> de la barva press.tó ante mí, por ttestigo a Francisco Gutiérrez de
> Hermosillo Vez.o desta dha Jur.ón al qual rezeví Juram.to que lo que
> supiere y le fuere preguntado diga; so cargo del qual prometió decir V.d
> fuele preguntado si conoçe al dho Benito Muños de la Barva y a Estephanía
> de Quesada; si save que sean libres y solteros para poder contraher el
> matrimonio que pretenden; si save que ayan echo Votos de castidad o
> rreligión; o sean cassados; o ayan dado palabra de cassam.to; o sean
> parientes affines o consanguíneos lo diga; si save qual sea la causa por
> que
> pretenden dispensaçión de amonestaciones; y si la dha estephanía de
> quesada es Vez.a de más a.s de S.n Juan a ttodo lo qual responde y diçe que
> conoçe a los sus dhos por que los vido naçer y criar y que save no ser
> parientes por ninguna vía ni manera; ni save aigan hecho voto de rreligión
> o de castidad, ni ser parientes por ningún camino y que la causa de pedir y
> supp.car as su illustrísima dispense en las Vanas es por rezelo de que no
> quieren sus hermanos por detrimento de sus personas; so cargo del Juram.to
> que hiço a Dios N. S.r y a la señal de la S.ta cruz diçe ser esta la Ver.d
> de lo que dho ttiene en que se affirmó y rratificó y ser el dho Benito
> Muños de la barva su primo hermano deste tt.o no por esso dexó de deçir la
> V.d en ttodo lo que dho ttiene declaró ser de edad de sesenta y ocho años
> pocos más, y lo firmó conmigo dho Juez = . . . B.r Lázaro Gutiérrez de
> hermozillo (rúbrica) . . . Fran.co gutiérres rubio de hermosillo (rúbrica)
> . . . Ante mí Fran.co Agúndiz (rúbrica) N.o N.do" A base de la edad de
> poco más de 68 años de edad que declara en la fecha de 6 de noviembre de
> 1682 (1682-68=1614), se puede calcular que nació en 1614 o antes. Es
> razonable entonces deducir que nació razonablemente entre 1610 y 1614.
> Francisco menciona que es primo hermano del pretenso Benito Muñoz de la
> Barba. El padre de Francisco y la madre de Benito eran hermanos.
> Simplifiqué
> aquí su parentesco: Tronco . . . . . . . . [Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio I &
> Ana González Florida I] . . . . . . . [Miguel Gutiérrez Rubio] . . . . . .
> . . .1 . . . . [Catalina González de la Reguera] . . . . . . . [+Leonor de
> Hermosillo] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [+Francisco Muñoz de la Barba] .
> .
> Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo . . 2 . . . . . . . Benito Muñoz de
> la Barba Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979,
> Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1689-1698, 1796 [Image 80
> of 614]
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18409-28727-41?cc=1874591&wc…
> ________________________________________________ Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio
> y
> Hermosillo (aka Francisco Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, Francisco Gutiérrez
> Rubio, or just Francisco Gutiérrez), born ca. 1610-1614, married to Juana
> de
> Lomelín are also my ancestors. I descend from their daughter Leonor de
> Hermosillo, married ca. 1676, to Juan de la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza. And
> for
> those of you who like signatures, I also have in my notes the signature of
> Juan de la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza, son-in-law of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio
> y Hermosillo. Juan de la Mora’s signature is on the left page, and as added
> bonus, on the right page is the signature of Lucas Romero de Chávez,
> husband
> of Petronila González de Hermosillo (daughter of Juan González de
> Hermosillo III, and niece of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo). Lucas
> Romero is precisely the one person in world history after whom Mezcala de
> los
> Romero was named. It was Lucas…he was “THE” Romero!!! Firmas de Juan de
> la Mora Hurtado de Mendoza & Lucas Romero de Chávez - 12 Diciembre 1708,
> Tepatitlán
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-2683-12?cc=1874591&wc=…
> (I try to maintain very detailed notes now.) Well primos, I hope this is
> helpful to you all. SFHL
>

You are welcome Alicia!! I do what I can to help, following the example of others in hopes others will follow my example.

I have had many serious setbacks in my genealogy over the past few years and I am having to rebuild what I have lost, which has caused my relative absence from Nuestros Ranchos. It seems that despite my gains, I haven't moved forward. It feels like two steps forward, one step back. So sharing is part of my new process as I slowly regain what was taken.

Just hope this info is truly appreciated by our common cousins and gets discussions going here in Nuestros Ranchos.

SFHL

Dear primo Steven
it is always a pleasure to read your pieces of research, they are always so clear and important that I think we all thank you very much for that and for your generosity in sharing your time and your knowledge.

Now that we are here trying to figure out the lines of the Placencia, the Aceves and the Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, I think one good line of investigation could be to try to find why in the Padrones of 1649,1650 we see that in the house of Leonor de Hermosillo were living ,among other personas, her nephew Juan de Aceves and her niece Catalina de Mejía , and they are called "hijos de Juan de Aceves y Beatríz de Hermosillo" ?

I think it is very important to find why one of the children was an outright "Aceves", and why his sister was a "Mejía" ?

Another interesting line to set clear (maybe it is clear already but I don´t have it)is :

Who were the parents of Sebastián Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (born around 1630), who married around 1655 to María Rodríguez Becerra Hurtado de Mendoza Galindo ?

I have that las couple as the parents of Petrona Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, born around 1660; this Petrona married around 1680 to Juan de Valdivia and they are my ancestors.

I have two children of the last couple :

Mariana , born around 1684, who married around 1704 to José Hernández Gamiño y Velasco; and

Sebastián de Valdivia, born around 1693, who married on May 17th 1717 in Ayo El Chico , to María de Padilla y Velasco.

I´m guessing that this Sebastián Gutiérrez is the one that is mentioned in the book of Sergio Gutiérrez about the padrones of 1649,1650, where in the Casa y Estancia of Francisco Gutiérrez and his wife Francisca de Mendoza is living one Sebastián Gutiérrez of 24 years of age , "hijo de padres no conocidos"

As I mentioned, Catalina de Mejía the sister of Juan de Aceves may be a clue to understand the lines of the Aceves, Placencias, Gutiérrez etc.; but there is another Catalina de Mejía realted to these same families! and that one was already married! precisely to Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio Hurtado de Mendoza.

The first Catalina de Mejía was single according to the "Padrón" , and was around 15-16 years of age, living in the houses of the deceased Miguel Gutiérrez Rubio; while the second Catalina de Mejía was living in the houses of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio, brother of Miguel.

Hola primos...

Me da gusto que mi trabajo es realmente apreciado. Muchas gracias primo Carlos.

Thanks to everybody who keep the discussions alive and seriously contribute to the growth of understanding. Posting helps my writing process (for the various books I have in the works and plans for) and makes me aware I should be more clear and precise to avoid any doubts or questions in readers minds. And you're right Alicia, I do double and triple check my work. You know me well.

One of my books will be a set of monographs in the style of Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia dedicated to whole families that got left out. I shared a lot of info to Don Mariano González-Leal from my Arandas and Ayo el Chico research for his book, but I want to be more than just a footnote in his books, and write my own. Don Mariano did not include whole families and lineages in his massive opus. As Guillermo Tovar de Teresa once pointed out before he passed away, Retoños is so huge and despite its attempt to be inclusive, contains a few errors here and there and has notorious omissions.

And that's where I want to step in and present what I have collected on certain Alteño branches and additional lines NOT in Retoños such as Aldana, Barajas, Gutiérrez de Híjar, Nuño Rasura de Laín Calvo, Vital-Ibarra de Anguiano, and few others.

While researching the genealogy of Los Altos, over the years I realized that name and surname usage was very fluid and at first glance unpredictable, but was always indicative of past ancestry. Like the children of Silvestre Camacho Riquelme and those of Carlos & Juan de Aceves.

It's funny you mention Catalina Mejía and all the hijos naturales in the Aceves family. [Eres brujo] I was wondering the same thing but there are several Catalina Mejía's and they're connected, somehow. Like all the Ana Muñoz's.

First I have two, abuela y nieta. Sorry if it's half English...mitad Español, but stuff in "quotes" is directly from my notes.

The first la abuela - the Catalina Mejía I who was born ca. 1484, from Condado de Feria, Castilla y León. "Doña Catalina Mexía, originaria del Condado de Feria; fue segunda esposa del probo letrado licenciado don Diego Pérez de la Torre, originario de Almendralejo, Juez de Residencia de Nuño de Guzmán, Gobernador de la Nueva Galicia". Catalina Mejía had a son named..."Don Melchor Pérez de la Torre, Conquistador de Cíbola; fundador de la Ciudad de Guadalajara de Indias; hijo del Lic. don Diego Pérez de la Torre, originario de Almendralejo, Juez de Residencia de Nuño de Guzmán, y de su segunda esposa doña Catalina Mexía".

The second Catalina Mejía II - born ca. 1540, in Guadalajara, was better known as Catalina Pérez de la Torre, grand-daughter of the first Catalina Mejía, and was a Mestiza. "Catalina Mejía-Pérez de la Torre, Encomendera de Cuyopuztlán, hija del conquistador Melchor Pérez de la Torre, fundador de la Ciudad de Guadalajara de Indias, y de su esposa indígena, Francisca Xérez, india cacica principal de Xalisco". Catalina Mejía II married ca. 1560 "El Conquistador don Pedro de Ledesma, Regidor Propietario y Alcalde Ordinario de Guadalara; soldado de fortuna en una expedición a Cibola". "Se sabe el orgien y naturaleza de Pedro de Ledesma por su pase a Indias, de fecha 1535, en el que se hizo constar que fue "hijo de Pedro de Ledesma e Isabel de Grado, vecinos de Zamora (Castilla y León)...". "El Conquistador Pedro de Ledesma y su esposa doña Catalina Mexía procrearon ocho hijos, que fueron "mozos de coro" -acólitos- de la Catedral de Guadalajara". They were the parents of Juan de Ledesma y de la Torre (alias Juan de la Torre Ledesma) the progenitor of this particular compound surname - De La Torre Ledesma.

The third Catalina Mejía in my records is not connected to the first two - as far as I know yet, but it would be fascinating if they were - was born in 1625, in Jalostotitlán and died on 18 Jul 1668, in Jalostotitlán. This Catalina was also known as Catalina Camacho or Catalina Camacho Mejía, as she was the daughter of Silvestre Camacho Riquelme and Teresa González de Hermosillo, and married ca. 1646 Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio III (alias Francisco Gutiérrez de Mendoza). Both Catalina Mejía and Francisco Gutiérrez are mentioned as married in the 1649 Padrón de Jalostotitlán (Sergio Gutiérrez pg. 24).

The fourth Catalina Mejía was born ca. 1632-1634 and was first-cousin of the third Catalina Mejía. The 4th Catalina was sister of Juan de Aceves and appear in the 1649 Padrón de Jalostotitlán (Sergio Gutiérrez pg. 26) as "Juan de Aceves, español soltero 20 años ++ Catalina Mejía, española de 15 años ++ hijos de Juan de Aceves y de Beatriz de Hermosillo españoles difuntos". The third and this fourth Catalina Mejía were both daughters of two sisters - Teresa González de Hermosillo and Beatriz de Hermosillo - and thus grand-daughters of Juan González de Hermosillo and Ana Muñoz (alias María Muñoz). So they must have had a great-grandmother in commmon named Catalina Mejía.

This is tell-tale evidence, proof undeniable that they had a common ancestor in their shared lineage who was named Catalina Mejía. It was a popular name apparently. So my theory is based on the scant evidence I have gathered so far on these lines - that Juan González de Hermosillo was the son of Gonzalo García de Hermosillo and mother unknown; and that Juan's wife, Ana Muñoz was the daughter of Francisco Muñoz-Cabeza de Vaca (based on hints from Daniel Mendez Camino...and which by the way explains Francisco Muñoz Cabeza and the lineage Muñoz de Hermosillo) and mother unknown.

Gonzalo García de Hermosillo . . . Francisco Muñoz
. . . [¿Catalina Mejía?] . . . . (-1) . . . [¿Catalina Mejía?] - SPECULATION!!
. . . . Juan González de Hermosillo & Ana Muñoz
Teresa de Hermosillo . . . 1 . . . Beatriz de Hermosillo
. . . . Catalina Mejía . . . . . 2 . . . . . . Catalina Mejía

Who were these unknown spouses? Could one of them be called Catalina Mejía? Were either Gonzalo García de Hermosillo or Francisco Muñoz-Cabeza de Vaca married to a woman named Catalina Mejía? Or perhaps a great-great-grandmother back there somewhere, like the first and second Catalina Mejía's mentioned? Interesting theory, no? Anybody out there have evidence to prove or disprove this?

And on a different topic, I also wonder who were the parents of Sebastián Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (born ca. 1626-1630), who married around 1655 to María Rodríguez Becerra Hurtado de Mendoza Galindo? Supposedly Sebastián's parents were Juan de Aceves and Beatriz de Hermosillo, but now I have doubts about that. Sebastián clearly appears in the household of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio as "hijo de padres no conocidos" along with a Josefa and Ana Gutiérrez. And then there's Pedro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, born ca. 1621, who should appear in the Padrón as "hijo de padres no conocidos" but is nowhere to be found. Could Sebastián be a younger brother of Pedro? Pedro is an illegitimate son of Juan González de Hermosillo and his own sister-in-law while still very married to his wife Ana González Florida , both of whom do not appear in either the 1649 nor 1650 Padrón. It is documented that Juan González de Hermosillo II fathered children before his marriage, and during his marriage with Ana González Florida II. Now the question is ... how many? And with how many different women?

The mother of Pedro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, is a yet unidentified daughter of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio I and Ana González Florida I, whom I have affectionately dubbed "Fulana" or N. Gutiérrez Rubio. And who were all these "hijos de padres no conocidos" surnamed Gutiérrez living in the Gutiérrez Rubio household and precisely how are they connected?

Pedro Gutiérrez-Rubio de Hermosillo is my ancestor so I have been researching his biography and ancestry quite tenaciously. In his person the Gutiérrez Rubio and González de Hermosillo surnames were combined. Interesting indeed. More on Pedro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo in a later post.

Hasta pronto,
SFHL

I would like to purchase this book when you have it printed. Will you let
me know?

Thank you.

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 11:42 PM, wrote:

> Hola primos... Me da gusto que mi trabajo es realmente apreciado. Muchas
> gracias primo Carlos. Thanks to everybody who keep the discussions alive
> and
> seriously contribute to the growth of understanding. Posting helps my
> writing
> process (for the various books I have in the works and plans for) and makes
> me aware I should be more clear and precise to avoid any doubts or
> questions
> in readers minds. And you're right Alicia, I do double and triple check my
> work. You know me well. One of my books will be a set of monographs in the
> style of Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia dedicated to whole families
> that got left out. I shared a lot of info to Don Mariano González-Leal from
> my Arandas and Ayo el Chico research for his book, but I want to be more
> than
> just a footnote in his books, and write my own. Don Mariano did not include
> whole families and lineages in his massive opus. As Guillermo Tovar de
> Teresa
> once pointed out before he passed away, Retoños is so huge and despite its
> attempt to be inclusive, contains a few errors here and there and has
> notorious omissions. And that's where I want to step in and present what I
> have collected on certain Alteño branches and additional lines NOT in
> Retoños such as Aldana, Barajas, Gutiérrez de Híjar, Hernández Gamiño,
> Marentes de Otadui y Avendaño, Nuño Rasura de Laín Calvo, Ornelas,
> Sánchez de Mendoza, Vital-Ibarra de Anguiano, and few others. While
> researching the genealogy of Los Altos, over the years I realized that name
> and surname usage was very fluid and at first glance unpredictable, but was
> always indicative of past ancestry. Like the children of Silvestre Camacho
> Riquelme and those of Carlos & Juan de Aceves. It's funny you mention
> Catalina Mejía and all the hijos naturales in the Aceves family. [Eres
> brujo] I was wondering the same thing but there are several Catalina
> Mejía's
> and they're connected, somehow. Like all the Ana Muñoz's. First I have two,
> abuela y nieta. Sorry if it's half English...mitad Español, but stuff in
> "quotes" is directly from my notes. The first la abuela - the Catalina
> Mejía
> I who was born ca. 1484, from Condado de Feria, Castilla y León. "Doña
> Catalina Mexía, originaria del Condado de Feria; fue segunda esposa del
> probo letrado licenciado don Diego Pérez de la Torre, originario de
> Almendralejo, Juez de Residencia de Nuño de Guzmán, Gobernador de la Nueva
> Galicia". Catalina Mejía had a son named..."Don Melchor Pérez de la Torre,
> Conquistador de Cíbola; fundador de la Ciudad de Guadalajara de Indias;
> hijo
> del Lic. don Diego Pérez de la Torre, originario de Almendralejo, Juez de
> Residencia de Nuño de Guzmán, y de su segunda esposa doña Catalina
> Mexía". The second Catalina Mejía II - born ca. 1540, in Guadalajara, was
> better known as Catalina Pérez de la Torre, grand-daughter of the first
> Catalina Mejía, and was a Mestiza. "Catalina Mejía-Pérez de la Torre,
> Encomendera de Cuyopuztlán, hija del conquistador Melchor Pérez de la
> Torre, fundador de la Ciudad de Guadalajara de Indias, y de su esposa
> indígena, Francisca Xérez, india cacica principal de Xalisco". Catalina
> Mejía II married ca. 1560 "El Conquistador don Pedro de Ledesma, Regidor
> Propietario y Alcalde Ordinario de Guadalara; soldado de fortuna en una
> expedición a Cibola". "Se sabe el orgien y naturaleza de Pedro de Ledesma
> por su pase a Indias, de fecha 1535, en el que se hizo constar que fue
> "hijo
> de Pedro de Ledesma e Isabel de Grado, vecinos de Zamora (Castilla y
> León)...". "El Conquistador Pedro de Ledesma y su esposa doña Catalina
> Mexía procrearon ocho hijos, que fueron "mozos de coro" -acólitos- de la
> Catedral de Guadalajara". They were the parents of Juan de Ledesma y de la
> Torre (alias Juan de la Torre Ledesma) the progenitor of this particular
> compound surname - De La Torre Ledesma. The third Catalina Mejía in my
> records is not connected to the first two - as far as I know yet, but it
> would be fascinating if they were - was born in 1625, in Jalostotitlán and
> died on 18 Jul 1668, in Jalostotitlán. This Catalina was also known as
> Catalina Camacho or Catalina Camacho Mejía, as she was the daughter of
> Silvestre Camacho Riquelme and Teresa González de Hermosillo, and married
> ca. 1646 Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio III (alias Francisco Gutiérrez de
> Mendoza). Both Catalina Mejía and Francisco Gutiérrez are mentioned as
> married in the 1649 Padrón de Jalostotitlán (Sergio Gutiérrez pg. 24). The
> fourth Catalina Mejía was born ca. 1632-1634 and was first-cousin of the
> third Catalina Mejía. The 4th Catalina was sister of Juan de Aceves and
> appear in the 1649 Padrón de Jalostotitlán (Sergio Gutiérrez pg. 26) as
> "Juan de Aceves, español soltero 20 años ++ Catalina Mejía, española de
> 15 años ++ hijos de Juan de Aceves y de Beatriz de Hermosillo españoles
> difuntos". The third and this fourth Catalina Mejía were both daughters of
> two sisters - Teresa González de Hermosillo and Beatriz de Hermosillo - and
> thus grand-daughters of Juan González de Hermosillo and Ana Muñoz (alias
> María Muñoz). So they must have had a great-grandmother in commmon named
> Catalina Mejía. This is tell-tale evidence, proof undeniable that they had
> a
> common ancestor in their shared lineage who was named Catalina Mejía. It
> was
> a popular name apparently. So my theory is based on the scant evidence I
> have
> gathered so far on these lines - that Juan González de Hermosillo was the
> son of Gonzalo García de Hermosillo and mother unknown; and that Juan's
> wife, Ana Muñoz was the daughter of Francisco Muñoz-Cabeza de Vaca (based
> on hints from Daniel Mendez Camino...and which by the way explains
> Francisco
> Muñoz Cabeza and the lineage Muñoz de Hermosillo) and mother unknown.
> Gonzalo García de Hermosillo . . . Francisco Muñoz . . . [¿Catalina
> Mejía?] . . . . (-1) . . . [¿Catalina Mejía?] - SPECULATION!! . . . . Juan
> González de Hermosillo & Ana Muñoz Teresa de Hermosillo . . . 1 . . .
> Beatriz de Hermosillo . . . . Catalina Mejía . . . . . 2 . . . . . .
> Catalina Mejía Who were these unknown spouses? Could one of them be called
> Catalina Mejía? Were either Gonzalo García de Hermosillo or Francisco
> Muñoz-Cabeza de Vaca married to a woman named Catalina Mejía? Or perhaps a
> great-great-grandmother back there somewhere, like the first and second
> Catalina Mejía's mentioned? Interesting theory, no? Anybody out there have
> evidence to prove or disprove this? And on a different topic, I also wonder
> who were the parents of Sebastián Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (born ca.
> 1626-1630), who married around 1655 to María Rodríguez Becerra Hurtado de
> Mendoza Galindo? Supposedly Sebastián's parents were Juan de Aceves and
> Beatriz de Hermosillo, but now I have doubts about that. Sebastián clearly
> appears in the household of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio as "hijo de padres no
> conocidos" along with a Josefa and Ana Gutiérrez. And then there's Pedro
> Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, born ca. 1621, who should appear in the Padrón as
> "hijo de padres no conocidos" but is nowhere to be found. Could Sebastián
> be
> a younger brother of Pedro? Pedro is an illegitimate son of Juan González
> de
> Hermosillo and his own sister-in-law while still very married to his wife
> Ana
> González Florida , both of whom do not appear in either the 1649 nor 1650
> Padrón. It is documented that Juan González de Hermosillo II fathered
> children before his marriage, and during his marriage with Ana González
> Florida II. Now the question is ... how many? And with how many different
> women? The mother of Pedro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, is a yet unidentified
> daughter of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio I and Ana González Florida I, whom I
> have affectionately dubbed "Fulana" or N. Gutiérrez Rubio. And who were all
> these "hijos de padres no conocidos" surnamed Gutiérrez living in the
> Gutiérrez Rubio household and precisely how are they connected? Pedro
> Gutiérrez-Rubio de Hermosillo is my ancestor so I have been researching his
> biography and ancestry quite tenaciously. How is it that the Gutiérrez
> Rubio
> and González de Hermosillo surnames were combined in one person?
> Interesting
> indeed. More on Pedro Gutiérrez de Hermosillo in a later post. Hasta
> pronto,
> SFHL
>

Dear Steve,

Is Pedro Ledesma el comendador the same Pedro Ledesma that is married to Isabel Grado? Or is Pedro Ledesma and Isabel Grados son known as el comendador? I recall reading that the de la torre Ledesma descend from Pedro Ledesma el comendador but I don't remember where I read this.

Thanks,
Rick A Ricci

Dear Steve,

Sorry about the question in the last post. Pedro de Ledesma married to to Catalina Mejia cannot be the Pedro Ledesma el comendador. The Pedro Ledesma el comendador is living in the 1400's.
the Pedro Ledesma married to Isabel Grado is not pedro Ledesma el comendador. If all the little puzzles that I put together are accurate then Pedro Ledesma el comendador is most likely the great grandfather of the Pedro Ledesma married to Isabel Grado.
The family descent from the Pedro Ledesma married to Isabel Grado is shown here in nuestro ranchos. I have put together the ancestral line of Pedro Ledesma el comendador with documented sources.

Due to my notes, I feel comfortable placing "Pedro Ledesma el comendador" as the great grandfather of our Pedro Ledesma This ancestral tree places him as cousin to an ancestor of the Rodriguez de Hijar family therefore adding to the family connections of the first families of los altos de Jalisco also being related in Spain before coming over.

I have two concerns. H
First concern The genealogical tree that people have posted on different websites have MAJOR mistakes though they claim to have sources. They have combined two Gonzalo's into one person when they are actually father and son. They have have also mixed up some of the wives, even claiming one was a unmarried partner when she was actually their mother and grandmother of the respective Gonzalo's.
I have put together a tree that uses many sources to place the ancestors in their correct place in the tree. Now that I have placed him as our ancestor, people should NOT look at these trees that are posted as being accurate. I will soon post an accurate tree as soon as my second concern is addressed.

Second concern
Many genealogists studying the de la Torre Ledesma genealogy claim that the ancestor Pedro Ledesma is the son of another Pedro Ledesma married to Isabel Grado. I have not seen the source that shows that our pedro Ledesma is the son of this couple. There is another Pedro Ledesma that also came over to mexico about the same time. Pedro Ledesma and Isabel Grado are from Zamora. Since our Pedro Ledesma is known to have been a descendant of Pedro Ledesma "el comendador" then did people decide that this was the correct one since the comendador was from Zamora?

Can someone please provide the source for showing the parents of our Pedro Ledesma as being the Pedro Ledesma married to Isabel Grado?
Rick A Ricci

Steven

I have only just started digesting all of this information. I have a few questions.

In the image you posted above pertaining to Benito Munoz de la Barba and Estefania Quesada, Juan Gonzalez de Hermosillo, 60 years old (1622), and Pedro Gutierrez, 59 years old (1623), both state that Catalina Gonzalez is their aunt. Im guessing Juan and Pedro are the children of Juan Gonzalez de Hermosillo who married Ana Gonzalez Florida. Would that make Catalina Gonzalez the sister of Ana Gonzalez Florida and Miguel Gutierrez (m Leonor Hermosillo).

I also see that you say Pedro Gutierrez is the son of Juan Gonzalez de Hermosillo and his sister in law. I am very interested in any information you have regarding Pedro as I am a direct descendant of everyone in this post ha!

Genealogy Research