Profile picture for user jrefugioghermosillo

Online Status

Por jrefugioghermosillo |

Several of us descend from Alonso de Estrada, royal treasurer and colonial governor of Nueva España, during the time of Cortés. Legend has him as the bastard son of Rey Fernando II el Catolico and a Luisa de Estrada, daughter of an ambassador. This is refuted by the 1585 limpieza de sangre of his great-grandson, Gobernador Jorge de Alvarado y Villafañe, which names Alonso de Estrada’s parents as Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, of Ciudad Real, and his first wife - whose name none of the witnesses could remember, only that his 2nd wife was surnamed Oliver. It did name his paternal grandparents as Diego Fernandez Hidalgo and Maria Gonzalez de Estrada. That document can be found at the PARES website, and it is digitized in its entirety, if you want to read it, though it is long and a hard read. It is the only historical document that I know of that names the father of Alonso de Estrada. Until now…and believe me, this one is a MUCH easier read!

I was grazing through the Mexican Inquisition archives, and I randomly came upon this. It’s the limpieza and proof of nobility of Licenciado Alvaro Gomez de Abaunza y Castro, oidor de la Audiencia de Guatemala, and later alcalde de crimen de la Audiencia de Mexico, and of his wife, Doña Isabel Costilla de Saavedra. It appears to be dated 11 Dec 1608. While glancing through their lines, I noticed that she was great-great granddaughter of Alonso de Estrada and Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria, and to my amazement, it names their parents! I jumped out of my chair!

According to her prueba de nobleza, Alonso de Estrada’s father was Juan Fernandez de Estrada, corresponding with the 1585 Jorge Alvarado limpieza, but it names his mother as Luisa de Oliver. She might be the N. de Oliver mentioned in the 1585 limpieza, making her Fernandez’s second wife, and therefore step-mother of Alonso de Estrada - unless his father married sisters, which is totally possible.

Either way, while the identity of his mother might still be in doubt, we now have a second document confirming that Alonso de Estrada was son of Juan Fernandez de Estrada, aka Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, who, according to the entry for Marina de Estrada (img249L), was:

“hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real, donde fue casado con doña luisa de oliver vezina de la dicha ciudad y fundo el mayorazgo de la Villa de Picon y de otras haciendas suyas…”

“the second son of the House of Estrada, who came from Asturias to Ciudad Real, where he married doña Luisa de Oliver, native of said city, and who founded the mayorazgo of the Villa de Picon, and of other haciendas in his possession…”

So, it’s looking more and more like there was no royal bastard birth for our infamous ancestor, Alonso de Estrada, and that it was just a legend, that probably grew from a popular joke, regarding his rapid ascent to power. I loved the idea of descending from a bastard son of the Catholic King - I love the irony, and I was thrilled when I first read about it, but these pieces of the puzzle keep popping up and bursting that bubble!

All the same, Alonso de Estrada’s life story is just as compelling, and even more impressive, if he did it without being of royal blood. It shows how a man can go from being a low-head-on-the-totem-pole holder of a señorio in Ciudad Real, to being governor of and one of the most powerful figures in one of the Crown’s newest acquisitions.

This prueba also gives a genealogy of his wife, Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria, naming her parents and paternal grandparents, though it mistakenly names her grandfather as Alonso Gutierrez de la Caballeria, when it was his brother, Comendador Gonzalo Gutierrez: her grandmother, Doña Catalina de Luna, married brothers, sons of Men Gutierrez de la Caballeria cc Catalina de la Cabra. It does mention that Doña Catalina de Luna was niece of Alvaro de Luna, Condestable de Castilla, which is super cool, and shows how connected these Sefardi families were to the centers of power. By the way, there is no mention of Doña Marina being descended from Conversos, which is discussed in depth in the 1585 limpieza. I guess too many generations had passed.

I recommend reading this limpieza y prueba. The script is highly legible, and it’s laid out in columns, by relationships and by generations, with biographies of each ancestor. It’s like an encyclopedia: Alvaro Gomez de Abaunza and Isabel Costilla had some illustrious ancestors, back in Spain, and in Colonial Mexico and Guatemala - primeros conquistadores y pobladores, some really good stuff, and I’m sure some of you will make some connections.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

I had previously stated that I didn’t descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife. What I should have said was that I had not found him in my ancestral lines. Today I discovered that my wife and I both descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife Marina Gutierrez De la Cavalleria.

Rick A. Ricci

About six months ago I worked on the genealogy of my oldest sister’s mother-in-law. I had previously worked on my sister’s father-in-law’s family tree many many years ago, but had not worked on her mother-n-law’s family. I was surprised to discover many interesting stories on her mother-in law’s relatives as they were also deeply involved in Mexican Politics. It turns out that this research now connects to my research on Alonso Estrada. Today I discovered that an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon is an ancestor of Enrique, who is a second cousin of my brother-in-law. The two families merged together into the same picture.

I immediately thought that if we were to compare the dna from Enrique to Manny Hermosillo, who is a descendant of Alonso Estrada, then we could finally prove with dna that Alonso Estrada was king Ferdinand II’s illegitimate son. I even sent an email to Enrique asking him to provide his dna so that we could compare it to a descendant of Alonso Estrada. The problem is that after sending the email, it hit me that the dna comparison is going to be complicated because Luisa Estrada’s mother, who is repeatedly related to King Ferdinand II, is also related to the wife of the other illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II as they all descend from King Alfonso XI De Castilla

If Enrique and Manny both provide the dna results, then it would still be interesting to compare dna samples as they would both be related through the wives of the two illegitimate sons of King Ferdinand II. But because of this connection, it would not prove descent from King Ferdinand II. I presently believe that in order to prove the relationship of Alonso Estrada to king Ferdinand, we need to also compare a line that descends from another descendant of King Ferdinand II that is not so closely related to Luisa Estrada’s mother.

Rick A. Ricci

Manny,

Do you descend from them based on ancestors discussed on the forum or through other ancestors? Just curious because I have a hard enough time finding my first ancestors for each line in Mexico, let alone making the leap to Spain! I'm jealous!

Alex

Hi Alex,

No, it's through other lines. I've got a few gateway ancestors, among them Diego de Guevara y Tovar (early regidor of Mexico City) and Juan Alonso de Sosa (Alonso de Estrada's successor and son-in-law). For the most part, I usually track my Mexican ancestors back to the first one to arrive on the continent and stop there, but there's been a lot of work done on these guys, being historical figures. When I have more time, I'll work on the earlier Spanish stuff.

Hope you're well!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Hi Manny,

If you keep sending me pearls I will never finish my book! Another thread that you sent me shows another connection in Spain. As you already know, a big part of my book is to show how many of the families are already related before they came over to the Americas. Not only has your find provided more confirmation, in my eyes, that Alonso Estrada is King Ferdinands’s son, you also have helped me connect another one of your ancestors to Alonso Estrada’s maternal line. This first wife of Juan Fernandez Estrada s the sister of another of your ancestors. Even the people who disagree with the conclusion that king Ferdinand is the father of Alonso Estrada will find much information in my book as I provide Juan Fernandez Estrada’s and his wife’s ancestry, and show how they are connected to our other ancestors.

Happy President’s day,
May we thank God for the many great presidents that we have had in the past such as Lincoln, Washington, both Roosevelt’s, both Adams, and Jefferson. Many (most) of these presidents are also distantly related to us as their ancestors were distant cousins of Alfonso XI De Castilla because they all descended from king Henry II Plantagenet and Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine, King and Queen Of England.

Thanks again Manny for your many contributions to my research,
Rick A. Ricci

Hi Manny
Do you descend from Juan Alonso De Sosa Estrada y Mariana De Guevara Barrios? If so, I would really love to see the line of descent from them and add it to my book. I have done much work on their ancestors. I have them connecting to many families.

Thanks,
Rick

For those of you that thought that I turned over the cart when I said that the dispensa provided evidence shows that King Ferdinand was the illegitimate father of Alonso Estrada, you will be even more surprised, shocked, as I was, to discover that King Ferdinand’s first marriage to Isabella was not sanctioned by the church due to the political climate and that they married by forging their names on a marriage dispensation that had been written for another couple. They, therefore, were never legally married by the Catholic Church. How ironic since they are commonly known as the Catholic King and Queen. Many English, French, and Spanish nobles, including heads of state from other countries were against the marriage alliance of these two. This placed the Vatican in a corner as they didn’t want to anger so many powerful people. This dispensation was not disclosed as fraudulent because while the Vatican knew it was forged, it relieved them from entering into the political fight over the marriage as the dispensation was signed by the previous authority.
You will also be surprised that Pedro Gonzalez De Lara was recognized as Queen Uracca’s husband and that Fernan Perez Hurtado was recognized as legitimate. The Hurtado surname was not because he was born in secrecy but to distinguish him from the many other distinguished noblemen at that time also named Fernan Perez.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: Mygenes2000

There was not just one ambassador of King Ferdinand’s to England. During that time period An ambassador was usually an appointment for a relatively brief mission. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother’s appointment as ambassador was for a much longer time period due to the nature of his negotiations. This made his brother more well known as an ambassador, which then led many genealogists to mistakenly claim that he was the father of Luisa Estrada.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

Hi Rick,

Yes, in a hurry to seal their union, the Catholic Monarchs procured a papal bull, supposedly signed by the previous pope, that allowed Fernando II to marry any eligible princess related to him within 3 degrees. Very convenient! Nevertheless, their marriage was dispensed and legitimized in 1471 with the Bula de Simancas, issued by the following pope.

As far as “turning over the cart” re: Alonso de Estrada’s paternity: I’ve still seen nothing that convinces me that the 2 limpiezas I’ve cited are forgeries. To paraphrase Jaime Holcombe, “As Juan de Arrigunaga used to say: ‘Una genealogia que no está probada con documentos fidedignos, es pura vacilada.’ (“A genealogy that isn’t proven with unimpeachable documents is a pure joke.”). But recognizing the possible non-existence of primary sources explicitly stating that Fernando II is Alonso de Estrada’s father, I’m willing to wait until the release of MG2K, to see your work, and to see how the pieces fall into place. So, please please please don’t feel forced to reveal anything here (i.e. “spoilers”), that you might want to save for the publication of your book. I am truly looking forward to it. Flip that cart for us! :)

Re: the Alvarado limpieza, though Maria Hernandez Hidalgo’s genealogy has holes in it, I don’t think they have anything to do with her age or disability: my mother is 88 years old and half-deaf, and can still rattle off names of people she hasn’t seen in over 70 years - and their family members. Maria Hernandez cited what she heard from her father, and from her aunts that raised her after his death, which would explain any holes. Besides, she wasn’t the only witness who claimed Juan Fernandez was Alonso de Estrada’s father, nor was she the first (she just gave the most complete genealogy).

I downloaded that limpieza a couple of years ago, and I have extensive notes, which I just located. The investigation was done in May 1584 in Ciudad Real, here’s a complete list of witnesses and their ages:

ANTONIO GALIANO BERMUDES 60
FRAY HIERONIMO TREBIÑO 60
BACHILLER JUAN DE AREVALO 67
FRANCISCA MORAN 60
MATHEO DEL SAL 57
JUAN MEXIA DE LOAISA 70+
ANTONIO DE POBLETE 70+
JUAN POBLETE DE LA MORA 60+
RODRIGO DE MORA BAÑEZ DE LA SERDA 71
GERONIMO DE HERRERA 60+
PRIORA DE GRACIA FRANCª MEXIA 50
ALº DE ROJAS PROCURADOR SINDICO DESTA CIUDAD 52
MARI HERNANDEZ HIDALGO 70
DON FRANCISCO DE GAMES 50
LICENᵈº ALº MANÇANO CURA 40
ALº DE LA CAMARA DE OCES 60
BERNARDINO DE VALDELAMAR 61
LOPE FERNANDEZ CARRILLO 70
JUO RODRIGUEZ DE LLAMA 70
JUAN DE LARA 75
LUIS DE POBLETE OLIVER 40
ANTONIO FERNANDEZ TORRES ESCRIBANO PUBLICO 45
ANA PRADO 70
FRAY DIEGO DE HERRERA 35
BACHILLER JUAN DE AREVALO
ANTONIO DE OLIVER 50
LUIS BERMUDES 66
JUAN RODRIGUEZ DE GUZMAN 59
PEDRO VILLAFRANCO 90
LUIS DE FIGUEROA 60+
JUAN DE COTILLO 80
CRISTOBAL PEREZ FAMILIAR DEL STO OFICIO 74
PEDRO CASADO CLERIGO 74
JUAN DE VILLAFRANCA QUIROGA 58
PASCUAL RRUIZ DE LA FRANCA 50
GASPAR DE JAEN 50
ANDRES ABBAD FAMILIAR DEL STO OFICIO 50

Though the Alonso de Estrada genealogy might still be dubious, it does name supposed descendants of Juan Fernandez’s brother, which might help you shore up your work. And then there’s a wealth of info on the Gutierrez de la Caballeria, including mention of ejecutorias that named them hidalgos and “Cristianos Viejos,” allowing them to hold offices with the Crown and the military and religious orders. Rick, how can I get these to you? (and to others: please don’t ask; I plan on using these down the line, and I offer these only to Rick, to help him with his book. Thank you for understanding :).

Here’s the limpieza of Guiomar de Avalos y Bocanegra cc Juan de Alcocer.
Which includes that of her grandfather, Juan Gutierrez Bocanegra.

And here’s the limpieza of Geronima de Mazariegos cc Pedro de Heredia, taking her back to Fernando Hidalgo cc Francisca de Mazariegos (which confirms Maria Hernandez Hidalgo’s testimony, regarding the Mazariegos’ link to this line).

By the way, I agree with Rick that “Hidalgo” isn’t the surname, but the family’s rank; throughout the Alvarado Limpieza, witnesses refer to Doña Marina’s father as “Juan Gutierrez Lanero,” one witness explaining that that was his trade (a “lanero” deals in wool).

Un abrazo,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Hi Manny,

The first dispensation used for Ferdinand's and Isabela's wedding was originally not for them . The previous pope didn’t write a blank dispensa for Ferdinand, especially when there was so much discussion over who should be the rightful ruler of Castilla. Ferdinand had been engaged to marry someone else when the previous Pope was in power. England and France were also sticking their hand in the pot, and the current Pope was stuck with his back against a wall, knowing that whatever decision he made was going to be met with displeasure by many of the people. So the Pope did nothing and let it play out. It worked to the Popes favor that he didn’t have to decide anything until much later. Dispensing and legitimizing the marriage in 1471 wouldn’t have been necessary if the first one had been legitimate.

The two limpiezas that you are saying are proof of the identity of Alonso Estrada’s father raises many questions as they are not discussing the same Estrada family. The two men mentioned are not the same people, so both limpienzas cannot be considered in conjunction as proof of your point that he is not the son of King Ferdinand. The limpeza that you found, and mention in this thread has the same Estrada family that I have as Alonso Estrada's maternal ancestors. some genealogists have the father listed in the other limpieza as the husband that Luisa Estrada married years after her relationship with King Ferdinand. This would make him Alonso Estrada's stepfather, not his biological father. But this husband of Luisa Estrada did not raise him as he was raised in King Ferdinand's court. Alonso Estrada actually was closer to King Ferdinand than his other illegitimate son. Alfonso D'Aragon.

When Charles was in power, he kept in contact with his two uncles, Alonso Estrada (aka Alonso Duque Estrada) and Alfonso d’Aragon and furthered their political careers. He gave both of them political power and asked them to help run things. Alfonso D’Aragon exercised his political power as he rose up in the ranks of the church.

The witnesses quoted in limpiezas written many years later giving different versions versus the statements that were made during King Ferdinand’s and Alonso’s lifetimes is the heart of this dispute. What I can give you definitely is the family tree of the Juan Fernandez Estrada from the second limpieza along with his first wife’s name and ancestors.

Some may argue that King Ferdinand would not have named two of his illegitimate sons by the same name as Alonso and Alfonso are variations of the same name, but they both had different complete names as one was known as Alonso Estrada, aka Alonso Duque Estrada, while the other was known as Alfonso D'Aragon. King Ferdinand also named two of his illegitimate daughters by the same name, Maria.

Alonso Estrada was not a "Duque". An ancestor of Alonso"s was nicknamed "Duque" without holding the title. When he inherited the "Estrada Tower" he then was known as "Duque Estrada." This Duque Estrada family was not a merging of the Duque family with the Estrada family as some have claimed. The Duque Estrada family intermarried often with cousins marrying cousins, and uncles marrying nieces so that may be why some people may have come to the conclusion that there was a merging of two family surnames to make one new one.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

These inquest records supported by some researchers are in constant dispute.

Ricci has shared great examples of why. This is what we know from the inquest records we have someone trying to prove their purity of blood of neither Moor nor Jew.

In doing this he would have to prove he wasn't from Jewish descent decades upon decades later. There is no one alive from this time who really knew his relatives. Tall order. Here is something else he would have to prove; he had to prove he had a credible witness which even the inquest was not satisfied he had done.

The witness according to the entries was cited repeatedly by the inquisition that she was very old, blind, and could not remember but thought her relatives told her that the mother was was a so and so, perhaps Oliver. The witness upon inquiry continues to repeat she really didn't know she couldn't remember.

When asked if there was Jewish blood she again resorts to I don't know, I don't remember , I couldn't say. We have to remember this witness is working on behalf of a person trying to prove his purity of blood however LYING to the inquest would have been disastrous for her. Hiding Jews could be punishable.

This inquest record is weak at best, to prove his true line of descent. However from the records we can gather that even the witness could not even remember the names. There could also been some deception involved on the petitioners part in getting her to speak on his behalf. Surely he discussed it with her? Surely he knew she was blind and had memory loss. Surely she told him she did not remember and could not recall the names before he decided to request her as a witness? ;)

Perhaps the vague underpinnings of her testimony as unreliable as they were was better for him as his Jewish heritage could be neither confirmed or disputed. Instead his admittance would have to rely on his community standing and those who knew the petitioner well as being a pious Christian.

If so, getting her to testify was a stroke of genius.

My opinion is to disregard the inquest as proof. I would go over ALL stories and personal accounts of Don Alonso de Estrada that you can find. Go over all documents written about him and his relatives (Some are not scanned yet). Develop a personality profile of the man compare it to his rivals. This will help you build a larger picture of the society in which he lived, his motivations and how people interacted with Alonso.

I too do not believe in the "rags to riches" mythos. It would be near impossible that lower nobility could have risen to his ranks given the economic caste system even within the aristocracy. It would be equally shocking that Cortez would not have tried to kill him.

Cortez did not have a problem killing lesser nobles he killed his own wife! It rocked the New World. His wife was a high standing aristocrat with high ranking noble parents. There were even witnesses that immediately came that attested that he was in the room with her when she was screaming and her necklace was ripped from her neck when they found her dead. Cortez thought nothing of doing this to a high ranking lesser noble and got away with it in court.

The fact Alonso was appointed to oversee Cortez says a tremendous amount about how the court/ King viewed Cortez. They needed to keep him in line and Alonso was the way to make sure he did stay in line. In turn Cortez loathed and despised Alonso. In fact Cortez got so out of line Alonso threatened him and said "I am the son of the King!" you will obey. Cortez known for going after rivals noble or not, backed down.

Let that sink in. :D

This is why it is important to read as much as you can and create a profile of each individual taking full account of mores of the day. This in turn I believe creates a bigger picture and a better understanding of what is really going on in the records.

I hope this helps

Dear Ana,

I appreciate your comments and support. Though I am already convinced that Alonso Estrada is the son of King Ferdinand and Luisa Estrada, it is important to continue adding information as the more puzzle pieces we add, the clearer the picture.

I am very interested in obtaining the document in Spanish records papers which refers to Alonso Estrada as being the "Kings little sin" and any other information on this subject.

I don’t descend from Alonso Estrada, but I do descend from the Gutierrez De Cavalleria.

Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci

Hi Ana

I too am interested in seeing the source for "the king's little sin" and also for the quote "I am the son of the king". I think you make an intersting argument in your post - the broader perpective of Estrada's relationship with Cortez.

For anyone else who might be interested, Hugh Thomas - in his book Conquest - has a lot of information on the murder of Cortez's first wife, some in text and some in footnotes. There is info on Alonso de Estrada in it as well, and also in one of Thomas' other books "The Golden Empire". (Ana, maybe your quote come from Thomas? My books are at home and I am out of town, so I can't check.)

Regards,
Denise

Rags to riches stories involve skill, talent, work, or luck. Usually it will involve all of them. Alonso Estrada was a violent, aggressive man. He became treasurer because his nephew, Charles V, appointed him. Charles V took care to set up both of his illegitimate uncles, Alonso Estrada and Alfonso d’Aragon.

Alonso Estrada was born to privilege and acted like it. I don’t know of any non royal family member arriving with 12 of their own household slaves during this age. He was not a capable administrator and did not make it to the level that he did on his own merits. If he had been a son of Juan Fernandez Estrada then he would had to work a little harder on his personal and diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather, Juan Fernandez Estrada, was a very talented man, with top diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather’s brother also had excellent diplomatic skills as he too was an ambassador. The brothers were negotiators, deal makers.

If Alonso was not King Ferdinand’s son than why would they pay him almost twice what they paid Cortez when Alonso was just a treasurer.

Alonso Estrada was not very good at managing money even though he was a treasurer and eventually lost most of his money.

When my mother told me that we were related to Santo Toribio she said that he was my grandfather’s second cousin. My research shows him to be a third cousin. My mother often claims someone is more closely related than they are. When my mother claimed that both of my grandfather’s were closely related through through their Franco lines because both of them had mothers from the same Franco family, she was mistaken. Yes, they both had mothers that had the surname Franco, but the Francos were two branches that were not closely related. My dad and maternal grandmother were third cousins, but my mother had not known of that relationship. My mom mistakenly claimed that my first cousin Yvonne married her second cousin. It was not true, but they are third cousins. It is only through solid research that I have been able to find the exact relationships. When they did the genealogical investigation of Alonso Estrada for the first dispensation they asked someone like my mother who claimed a closer relationship than she actually had with Alonso Estrada. The person that she stated was Alonso Estrada’s father is not a close biological relative of Alonso Estrada. The person mentioned as Alonso’s father in the second dispensation has different parents than the parents mentioned in the first dispensation. There is no way that the paternal ancestry discussed in the two dispensations line up. The second dispensation does identify the correct Estrada family, but I repeat what I wrote earlier in this blog, Juan Fernandez Estrada is his maternal grandfather, and his first wife is well known and came from a family that was closely related to King Ferdinand II “el Catolico” and to the Villaseñor family that immigrates to Nueva Galicia. We know that the second dispensation does identify the correct Estrada line because it identifies juan Fernandez Estrada as the second son of the two brothers that moved from Asturias to Ciudad Real. The two brothers were both diplomats who became ambassadors for King Ferdinand II. Some genealogists have mistakenly claimed that juan’s brother, or their father is Alonso Estrada’s father. Or they mistakenly merge the brothers into one person. They also have mistakes as to the origin of this line of Estradas.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

Juan Fernandez Estrada, Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather and his brother were both ambassadors for King Ferdinand of Aragon. Many historians and genealogists have confused the two, or merged them into one person. But they are definitely two people. Juan Fernandez Estrada was the ambassador to the Vatican. Juan was sent to the Vatican immediately after the expulsion of the moors from Granada.

Both of the brothers had a lot of power as they both had King Ferdinand’s ear. Juan’s brother exercised a lot power in his assignments, and his descendants continued working for the future kings of Spain exercising much influence.

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

Rick,

Awesome! I am looking forward to see how you connected the dots, since nobody else has bothered to do so! I’ll be buying a copy of MyGenes, so I can wait.

The book you’re looking to move, is that the Revista de Indias you’re talking about, with the Castro y Tosi article, based on the 1585 Jorge Alvarado limpieza?

Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Manny,

During Alonso Estrada’s lifetime, it was common knowledge that he was the illegitimate son of King Ferdinand and Luisa Estrada, the daughter of an ambassador and his first wife. Alonso Estrada would often boast of being his son. In early history books Alonso de Estrada was identified as an illegitimate son of Rey don Fernando II, El Católico, of Aragón. This is mentioned by the early historiagrapher of Nueva España, Bernal Díaz del Castillo. Alonso Estrada was accustomed to a life in the court of King Ferdinand so when he arrived in Nueva España he had his 12 household servants/slaves with him.

Alonso Estrada was raised in the kings court and enjoyed priveliges that a legitimate younger son would have received. It was only because he was illegitimate that he didn’t receive even more privileges. Alonso’s mother was also known during his lifetime. The issue has been that historians and genealogists have made mistakes in identifying her father as some identify her father’s brother as her father, while others have identified her paternal grandfather as her father. Some historians and genealogists have even made the mistake of merging her father and his brother into one person. The dispensa that you found is very important as Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified as ““hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real.” This is very important information as there were two brothers from the Casa De Estrada that went from Asturias to Ciudad Real that were ambassadors. Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified from this dispensa as the brother that Alfonso Estrada descends from, only that he wasn’t his father like the dispensa says, he was his maternal grandfather. Some other genealogists have made the mistake of stating that Luisa is Juan Fernandez Estrada’s sister, but those same genealogists have made the additional mistake of merging the two brothers into one person. Y

The first dispensa has many errors in it as it is based on testimony of an individual who can’t recall his mothers name and doesn’t even provide accurate information on the Estrada line. The second dispensa, that one you found and address here in thiis thread, is more important in the search for the truth because, despite its errors, leads us to which of the two ambassador brothers Alonso Estrada descends from. This second dispensa also accurately describes that he is the one of two Estrada brothers that comes from Asturias to Ciudad Real. This fact is important because it confirms my information that the brothers were not one person. I have the information on their parents and their wives which I will leave for the book as that information would add many pages to this post. Many pages because if I post it then I would have to go into how they are related to the Villaseñor, the Reynoso and other families

Alonso Estrada named one of his daughters after his mother. During those times, if you named your daughter after your mother, she would also use her surname. In this case it was the same surname as his since Alonso Estrada also had his mom’s surname.

Alonso and Alfonso were interchangeable names. These names were common in the royal families in Castilla, Leon and Aragon. King Ferdinand also sired an another illegitimate son with the same first name of Alfonso. This Alfonso was known as Alfonso De Aragon and he became an archbishop of Zaragoza. This Alfonso De Aragon was also raised in the royal court and received privileges, just as Alonso Estrada did. I believe that Alfonso d’ Aragon was born first, but I have not confirmed this. What is known is that both of these illegitimate sons were born in Ferdinand’s youth when he was still a teenager. Both of these sons of Ferdinand received privileges from Ferdinand’s immediate family, cousins and uncles, so they moved up quickly in politics and assumed powerful positions at an early age.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

The biggest scandal in the Estrada family was not Alonso Estrada and Catalina Gutierrez Cavalleria ‘s descendants’ inquisition trials, nor was it Luisa having a child out of wedlock with King Ferdinand of Aragon. The biggest Estrada family scandal happened in the late. 1500’s and early 1600’s. The misdeeds were committed by a great grandson of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother. This Estrada family member wrote about his scandalous behavior, letting the world know about his misdeeds. He wrote he killed his bethrowed and a friend in a jealous tantrum when he found them together in a room. His fiancé was also the daughter of his cousin. He then escaped justice when a nun fell in love with him and helped him escape from his cell. He then traveled the old world, as a soldier for hire. He eventually settled down, became a monk and wrote his memoirs.

His books are supposed to be autobiographies, and most of what he has written is true but there is a little exaggeration because some of what he claims he did was done by his father. He has merged his and his father’s lives. His father helped him write the autobiographies. He was never an orphan. His father and mother were uncle and niece

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

Dear Manny,

There are portions of this family tree that are different than the other record. I believe that your finding of this record confirms my research on this family even though it clearly has some mistakes. This record correctly identifies that Alonso descends from the Juan Fernandez Estrada that was the second son the Estrada family that came over. The information that I have on on his parents and wives is concrete. The facts lead to Ambassador Juan Fernandez Estrada being Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather!and not his father. King Ferdinand is Alonso Estrada’s father.

King Ferdinand as an ancestor was not something many of his descendants were proud of because many of them were Jews. King Ferdinand’s expulsion of the Jews from Spain devastated many families.

Thanks again,
Rick A Ricci

A very important piece used to unraveling the mystery is the part where Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified as ““hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real”. This statement is the one that brings all the other puzzle pieces that I have collected together and positively identifies who it is that we are talking about.

Rick A. Ricci

Dear Manny,

Sorry to burst the bubble on the:

“It shows how a man can go from being a low-head-on-the-totem-pole holder of a señorio in Ciudad Real, to being governor of and one of the most powerful figures in one of the Crown’s newest acquisitions.”

It would have been a great “rags to riches” story, but Alonso Estrada was an illegitimate son of a king and the kings not-to-distant cousin so he had a major advantage from birth. He actually descended from royalty numerous times.

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

I completely agree with you from the research that I have found Estrada threatens Cortez with "I am the son of the king" you will obey. Cortez backed down according to the text, Cortez backed down to no one. In fact Cortez got away with murdering his aristocrat wife with Royal connections and witnesses. A man of lower nobility placed ABOVE Cortez to oversee him would have soon met his end. Cortez hated the aristocracy that came from Spain to oversee him as it was harder to remove them by force.

This did not happen in the case of Estrada, despite Cortez's distinct hatred of the man and Estrada's constant threats to Cortez. Also there is a document in Spanish records papers which refer to Estrada as being the "Kings little sin" which was mentioned in a Tomo. I wonder if you have had a chance to review that one?

I am in the process of seeing if I can get my hands on it.

Hi Denise,

I think Ana/Giest1 or whomever she was quoting confused the legends - that is how la Reina Isabel referred to the 3 bastard sons of her ally, Cardinal Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza. She called them “los bellos pecados del cardenal.” Here's a reference: http://slroute.com/2018/05/07/leyendas_los-bellos-pecados-del-cardenal-…

As for the paternity of Alonso de Estrada, I did find a primary source that named him as Fernando’s son, which I’ll post, as soon as I’m near my home computer.

Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Thanks Manny

, I’m looking forrward to reading about your primary source. Two great grandchildren of Alonso Estrada married, and I descend from their daughter, so I descend from Alonso Estrada twice.

It would have been impossible for Alonso Estrada to be anything other than the king of Spain to get away with the things that he did. Charles protected his uncle Alonso Estrada. During Alonso Estrada’s lifetime the only references to his father pointed to King Ferdinand II el Catolico

And the second dispensation record that you found Manny corroborates my research as to which brother was the father of Luisa Estrada.

Thanks again Manny,
Rick A. Ricci

Hi Rick and Manny

Thanks for your prompt responses! I agree with you Rick, that the way King Charles treated Alonso is a good clue, and then there is also Cortez´behavior toward Alonso as noted in a comment here by Giest1. So, Manny, I am really really looking forward to what you have to share :).

After focusing the past several years on my mother´s side, I am now reviewing the material I have on my paternal grandmother´s side. There is that small percent of DNA from the British Isles that has come down through her line....want to find out where it comes from.

Regards
Denise

Hi Denise,

That little percent of British comes from a few different sources. I willl name four. First, if you descend from Spanish royalty then you have a little British DNA.. Second, when the British sided with King Pedro cruel of Castilla they left British descendants in Castilla. Some even stayed on the Iberian peninsula. Third, I traced a line from a Viking that first left descendants in France, and then they branched out to England and Spain so this line left descendants with a trace of Norwegian/Swedish, in English, French, and Spanish branches. This line intermarried with English and French before going to Spain. Fourth, Sancho Martinez de Leyva married the Isabel Plantagenet (Suffolk) illegitimate daughter of the English King. Sancho and Isabella raised their family in Castilla and many of their descendants came to Mexico. These British ancestors would only account for a very small percentage of British DNA in single digits.

King Ferdinand II had a little English DNA and so did Luisa Estrada through her mother. Luisa Estrada descends from the Viking line that left descendants that married English and French before coming to Spain. The Villaseñor and Reynoso also descend from this line. The Reynoso also descend from Sancho Martinez de Leyva and Isabel Plantagenet Suffolk.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

Hi Rick

Many thanks for your imput! I have thought something along the same lines, but with the observation that a sibling of my grandmother had 6% British Isle genes, and us grandchildren only 1-2%, I thought perhaps there was an English/Irish/Scottish ancestor within the past 6-7 generations. If so, I could perhaps put a name on that individual, like I did with the African genes (found the mulattos on my mom´s side) But it also occured to me that repeated instances of cousins marrying cousins in colonial mexico would have kept the genes in circulation in my grandmother´s lines, as they were Spanish (according to her, "puro espanol") and not inclined to marry non-Spanish, and sometimes cousins did marry cousins, or else the bride and groom had a common ancestor from Spain way back. But then my grandmother married a man who we now know had some Native-American genes (though you wouldn´t know if you saw him) and they had a son (my father) who married a woman (my mother) with a third Native-American genes. (My brother, sister, and I all have close to a third Native American DNA.). So those British Isle genes have gotten watered down over the last 2 generations. Anyway, I will keep pouring through the info I have on my grandmother´s tree, maybe something will turn up. I know John Hawkins the pirate/hero (depending on your perspective!) left some men behind in Mexico in the later half of the 1500´s, some of them may have left their genes in the gene pool of Mexico, and perhaps hispanicised surnames (Thomas Black became Tomas Blaque, for example). And then I also have to identify which of my gateway ancestors descend from the people in you comment above :)

Regards
Denise

Hello Denise,

I have the same small percentage of DNA. I have traced my ancestry much further than seven generations so my small percentage has to come from the endogamy of people that carried that small percentage for centuries.

In the previous post I named four examples of how people may have British DNA. I left out two others by mistake. The fifth is a woman who was the daughter of a man I only know as an Englishman “albañil” and a Castilian Jewish woman. Through their daughter, this Englishman and his Jewish Wife are the ancestors to many, many lines of nobility in Spain. I am in the process of collecting information on her descendants. Alonso Estrada’s mother descends from the “albañil inglés” and Jewish woman. Through his mother he also descends from King Pedro el Cruel de Castilla.

The first five examples Of how I have a small percentage of British DNA.

The sixth possibility is not part of my ancestry. This possibility is that you descend from one of the six English pirates that are on record as being in Mexico. The inquisition in Mexico condemned one of the English pirates, but the other five were cleared and allowed to continue living in Mexico.

Regards,
Rick A. Ricci

Sorry it took me so long to get back to everyone. I did not get an alert in my email.. I may have to change it to another one so I can see my mail unfettered.

Francisco Fernandez del Castillo states the reference is from the Inquisition (reference cited as Archivo de Inqisición, Tomo 365) it was common knowledge in Ciudad Real and Almagro that Alonso de Estrada was an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Castile (Fernandez del Castillo 399). I sent the request for the citation to one of the Universities I have not heard back whether they can provide that via E-book. "Historical Archives of the Nation in Madrid , Testimony 1501, No. 17 referred to by Fernandez del Castillo, 398-399. Sources Francisco Fernndez del Castillo, "Alonso de Estrada: Su Familia," in Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Historia1(1942)"

I will provide the reference to Alonso himself citing he was the King's son in a fury which I read as well in my next post.

From what I read so far from you Rick is astounding! YES can't wait for that book :D If Luisa had a marriage but her son's age predated that marriage this would fill in the missing pieces. This would make her hubby the step-father not the biological father to Alonso de Estrada.

I am still working on getting that citation in the archives bear with me guys. Perhaps you will be much quicker in getting the original TOMO Fernandez del Castillo was referring to.

I definitely have more time to commit now perhaps I can get the powers that be to send a photocopy of the reference so I can dig around in the archives to find the citation. It most definitely seems that there are/were pieces of the puzzle missing regarding Alonso de Estrada.

Until we are able to verify them, the dispute will continue to rage over his paternity. So far the inquisition is less than accurate the main witness repeatedly said she could not remember over and over as you read the actual documents and it seemed even the inquisition was getting fed up with her responses in the documents. In the end his purity of blood, test remained in limbo. As for the second it appear to be the wrong Alonso? :/

Great work Rick! Great job everyone, every path must be explored thoroughly even if it is not the path we thought it was. I feel this is the way we keep our ancestors alive oh the stories they will tell.

i've always believed that Alonso de Estrada was the son of the king. I've seen too many documents in Mexico where they try multiple times to cover up who the real parents are to avoid scandal. I think the most obvious indicator that he was the son of the king is the fact that he claimed to be the son of the king. I don't think he would be able to go around saying he was the son of the king and not get in trouble for it. And not only did he not get in trouble, he was made viceroy. It seems to me pretty obvious that he was the son of the King.

I contacted the publisher I got the entire catalog of writing I am just now going over it. It names Alonso de Estrada's great-grandson as his main source in his own words!! It was in that record. I am scrambling trying to get the citation at least by next week so I can read the actual document. Evidently there are many, many golden nuggets in there. Francisco says most of his work came from that declaration by Estradas great-grandson. So it seems you were right on track the genealogists were confusing people. Estrada's family is exactly who we thought and who was named in the inquisition declaration transcribed by Don Francisco Fernadez de Castillo in his writing. The reference he used was not the legend Manny was referring to but actually the transcription he uses is: "Picadillo Amaroso Del Rey don Fernando el Catolico y cierta dama de la familia de los Estradas, una de mas ilustres del reino". Francisco then gives the citation. That is what I am working on right now the actual citation location. I doubt Francisco was lying or not citing his work correctly considering it was being checked by the historical society/ archive. So that possibility is not even a consideration. The final pieces you have regarding the brothers will I believe silence the nay sayers forever.

Put a fork in it this is DONE. :D I can't wait for your book!

Found at PARES:

Supplied Title: Proceso contra Alonso de Estrada:rebelión Nueva España
Reference number: PATRONATO,217,R.2
Date of creation: 1566
Level of description: Unidad Documental Simple_en
Reference code: ES.41091.AGI//PATRONATO,217,R.2
Scope and Content: Proceso criminal formado en la Audiencia de México contra Alonso de Estrada, preso en México por participar en la rebelión de Nueva España.

Juan Alonso de Estrada (who is supposedly my ancestor) was the son of Tesorero Juan Alonso de Sosa & Doña Ana de Estrada, and grandson of Lope de Sosa & Doña Ynes de Cabrera, and of Alonso de Estrada & Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. In 1566, when he was about 22 years-old, Juan Alonso and his half-brother, Alonso de Cabrera, were swept up in the so-called Martin Cortes conspiracy. Their brother-in-law, Alonso de Avila Alvarado (who was married to their sister, Doña Maria de Sosa) was one of the accused ringleaders of the rebellion; along with his brother, Gil Gonzalez de Avila, Alonso de Avila was jailed and tortured, then tried and convicted, and they were both beheaded on 5 Aug 1566. Like numerous others implicated in the rebellion, the 2 Sosa brothers were also imprisoned and likely tortured.

The above cited record is Juan Alonso de Estrada’s proceso criminal. Still imprisoned in Dec 1567, he presented witnesses for his defense, who were given a series of questions, which included a limpieza de sangre up to his grandparents. Among the witnesses interviewed were Pedro Ladron de Guevara, Luis de Godoy (who said he was related to Juan Alonso de Sosa, though he didn’t know how), Antonio de Oliver, don Luis de Castilla (husband of doña Juana de Sosa, aunt of the accused), Pero Nuñez (who said he was “muy amigos” with Gobernador Alonso de Estrada), Antonio de la Cadena, and Francisco de Estrada (who said he was related to the Estrada’s, but didn’t know how).

Of interest, is what Antonio de Oliver had to say: appearing on 26 Dec 1567, he gave his age as over 60, and said that he was a native of Ciudad Real (according to Himmerich y Valencia in his “Encomenderos,” Oliver arrived in Mexico in 1523). Oliver said that he knew Juan Alonso de Estrada and his parents, and that “he knew Gobernador Alonso de Estrada, who was a native of Ciudad Real, where this witness was from, and therefore, he knew Doña Ana de Estrada, who was also from Ciudad Real.” He said that he had known Doña Ana for 47-48 years, and witnessed her marriage to Tesorero Juan Alonso de Sosa, and that during their marriage, he witnessed them give birth to- and raise as their legitimate children Lope de Sosa, doña Maria de Sosa and Juan Alonso de Estrada (note: Ana de Estrada was born around 1520, so Oliver would have known her since her birth, and she arrived in Mexico in 1535; this suggests that he had contact with this family before and after their arrival in Mexico. From his entire testimony, and seeing how Juan Alonso de Estrada called him as a witness, I get the impression that he was more than just a casual acquaintance of this family).

In his response to the 4th question of the inquiry, regarding the social rank of Juan Alonso de Estrada and his parents and grandparents (starting on image 65), Antonio de Oliver stated:

“…sabe este tº que el dho lope de sosa y el tesorero Juan alonso de sosa y el gobernador alº de estrada y Jů fernandez hidalgo vzº de ciudad real q fue padre del dho tesorero y gobernador alº de estrada fueron cavalleros y hijosdalgo notorios de sangre…”

“…this witness knows that the aforementioned Lope de Sosa and Treasurer Juan Alonso de Sosa, and Governor Alonso de Estrada, and Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, resident of Ciudad Real who was the father of the aforementioned Treasurer and Governor Alonso de Estrada, were cavalleros and hijosdalgo by virtue of lineage…”.

There’s that name again: Juan Fernandez Hidalgo. And this is from a man, native of Ciudad Real and resident in Mexico for 44 years, who was a contemporary of- and who knew Alonso de Estrada, and who apparently had continuous contact with his family. And it’s from testimony in a criminal trial against one of the grandsons of Alonso de Estrada, under the auspices of the Real Audiencia de Mexico (if any of you are wondering, none of the other witnesses mentioned Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, staying within the parameters of the question. But then, none of them mentioned Fernando II, either).

This corresponds with that established in the Alvarado limpieza, which was conducted in Ciudad Real, where several residents agreed that Juan Fernandez Hidalgo was the father of Alonso de Estrada. Just an observation: even if we disregard Antonio de Oliver’s apparent relationship with the Estrada’s, he would’ve left Ciudad Real as late as 1523, and the Alvarado interviews began in May 1584. That means that in Ciudad Real, for more than 60 years, it was public knowledge - “publica voz y fama” - that the father of Alonso de Estrada was Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, and not Fernando II, as claimed by 2 witnesses in the 1599 probanza of Francisco Pacheco de Cordoba, which was done in Mexico, and which, by the way, is the document from TOMO 365 that Geist1 mentioned. I do have a copy of that document, which I’ll be sharing in this thread when I have the time.

Stay safe, all of you, and make like a bandido and wear a mask!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

PS - Giest1: I think you dropped your fork :D

Nice find Manny, but the other record that you found names Luisa Estradas father and correctly identifies him and his brothers arrival to Ciudad Real. That record contradicts this record. So during Alonso Estrada’s life time he is acknowledged as the king’s illegitimate son, by his own proclamations and by other authors writing at that time. And you can’t forget all of the other details in his life that only a son of the king could get away with. Alonso Estrada lived like royalty and had a high salary that regular treasurers didn’t have. He was protected even though he did not possess extraordinary skills Now his wife and her daughters did possess extraordinary skills, but Alonso Estrada was an #&*363*#* that would have been done away with by many people, not just Hernan Cortez. And it was not just King Ferdinand that protected him, Charles Also protected him. Without this protection he would have suffered great harm. The dozen servants that catered to him hand and foot was something That only A son of a Royal would have. And these were only the ones traveling with him.

Rick wrote:

but the other record that you found names Luisa Estradas father and correctly identifies him and his brothers arrival to Ciudad Real. That record contradicts this record

The two records I posted at the beginning of this thread named Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, aka Juan Fernandez de Estrada, as the father of Alonso de Estrada. The only Luisa de Estrada mentioned in either was the daughter of Alonso de Estrada, who married Jorge de Alvarado.

As for everything else - you’ve mentioned these things several times throughout this thread, but you never name your sources. Please do, so they can be verified independently. For the most part, I am only interested in primary sources, but anything written by historians during Estrada’s lifetime would be welcomed - I just haven’t seen any. Please let me know what they are, and I will locate them.

Thanks!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

I just wanted to let you know the citation I was referring to was in the inquisition papers that were cited as being the source saying Alonso de Estrada was in fact the result of the union of Luisa and the King are below on my last comment.

I encourage everyone to dig through the archives. The reference to the citation is listed in book it indicates the TOMO. I believe the book is listed with many Universities. One of them should have a copy we can go through it meticulously. The more eyes the better. This will be important when going through the Spanish Ministry archive in which I believe it is located.

Their references should be in their bibliography or on the bottom of the page of the reference. You will need this code to look up the original document.

All the best

This limpieza and proof of nobility that appears to be dated 11 Dec 1608 is for a great-great granddaughter of Alonso de Estrada and Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. Much time has passed and information has been forgotten or intentionally changed. It is not uncommon for a great great grandchild to make an error when naming their great great grandparents. Juan Fernandez Estrada was her great great great grandfather and Luisa Estrada was her great great grandmother.

Juan Fernandez Estrada was an Hidalgo. The Hidalgo was not part of his surname. The Fernandez surname was because his father’s name was Fernando. He and his brother were close confidants of the King of Aragon, and served as ambassadors of Aragon to France and England. Juan’s mother came from the powerful Alvarez De Asturias family that also has royalty in their ancestry a couple of centuries back. Juan is married twice. His first wife is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II. Luisa Estrada is a daughter of Juan and his first wife. King Ferdinand and his distant cousin Luisa Estada are the parents of Alonso Estrada. He is given an immense salary, not for his service to the king, but because he is the king’s illegitimate son. Alonso is raised in the court of the king. His maternal cousins and nephews, descendants of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother, stay in Spain and provide a long history of service to the kings of Spain without the enormous salary that was given to Alonso.

The mythical family tree is the one in the limpieza. Diego Fernandez Hidalgo and Maria Gonzalez de Estrada are not the parents of Juan Fernandez Estrada. Part of the limpieza is correct. Juan Fernandez Estrada is ““the second son of the House of Estrada, who came from Asturias to Ciudad Real”. But neither of his two wives is named Luisa, Luisa is his daughter. Another mistake in the limpieza is the surname of Juan’s second wife. Her surname is not Oliver, it is Ulloa. Manny already pointed out another mistake in the purported family tree on the Gutierrez Cavalleria side of the family.

For those that don’t believe me, but insist that the limpiezas provide the correct genealogy, I have a book for sale that is an “antique” in pristine condition that purports to provide evidence of his ancestry due to the limpiezas. It would be a great addition to any library of someone that believes in the limpieza.

Rick A. Riccii
Source: book Mygenes2000

Hi Rick

You provide a lot of information, and in your posts in this thread, cite the pruebas and Mygenes2000. The story is very interesting indeed!

Could you kindly provide a link for Mygenes2000 - or else a list of the sources in that book on which your posts are based, here in this thread?

Regards
Denise

Mygenes2000 is what I name my yet unpublished book that shows how many of the founding families were related to each other before they crossed the Atlantic Ocean.

In my book I have much more information on Alonso Fernandez Estrada’s ancestors and show how they are closely related to my Villaseñor and Reynoso ancestors that come to Nueva Galicia. The book is a huge undertaking as I connect many of the families before their crossing.

R.A. Ricci

Hi Rick

Thank you for your prompt response. I appreciate your dedication to your research and I do look forward to reading your book, Mygenes 2000. I also appreciate that you try to put the information in the documents into an historical context. I attempt to do the same with the documents I come across which relate to my family.

In your post of Sun, 2019-01-13 20:34 - ALONSO ESTRADA, you kindly provide 12 pieces of information. Since your book is not yet published, I must ask you for a few specifics on the bits I feel can be relatively easily handled (if you use footnotes or other standard citation system in your book) - sources for the following:

1. that Juan Fernandez de Estrada's first wife, "is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II.”
2. Luisa Estrada as a daughter of Juan and his first wife.
3. that neither of Juan’s two wives is named Luisa - so, what are their names?
4. The surname of Juan’s second wife. You state, “Her surname is not Oliver, it is Ulloa.” I looked at the 1608 document and I concur with Manny that the name there is Oliver. You must have seen Ulloa somewhere else?

One one of my family lines, I descend from Alonso de Estrada, so naturally I am interested in who his parents are. And as a researcher, I would of course like to see the sources you have used.

Regards
Denise

Genealogist Manny Diez Hermosillo contributed greatly to my Villaseñor research in Nueva Galicia. His contributions led to many threads that helped further along my research in Spain. Many other genealogists have also contributed to this research.

I compiled much information on the Villaseñor ancestor families in Spain. Mannys contribution to my families Villaseñor ancestral lines contributed to my finding Manny’s Estrada ancestral lines in Spain. Luisa’s mom is a daughter of one of these families. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s wife’s family is well documented by me. There is no question about Juan Fernandez’s first wife, or her ancestry. Luisa’s mom’s family was not Jewish. It was the Estrada y Gutierrez deCavalleria descendants of Catalina and Alonso Estrada that tried to hide their Jewish faith. Luisa’s siblings, nephews and cousins were Catholic, with at least one of them an official of the inquisition, and another becoming a priest. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother had three grandchildren that married people that descended from royalty.

I hope to have a book out in the near future so please be patient.

Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci

Dear Manny,

I owe you big time for the many times that you have helped me with my research. And this is another great find by you. However, I disagree that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father.

The genealogy that he was the son of The king seemed like a legend to me also. I even bought an original copy of the book that refutes that he was son of the king. Over the years I repeatedly stated that Juan Fernandez De Estrada was his father based on the argument put forward by this book. The problem is that when I researched the issue I discovered that it has some false information. This second genealogy that you found is based on the “ made up family tree “ that tried to hide that his mother was a mistress of the king. Her having an illegitimate child was an embarrassment to her family. Later on the family tried to hide its Jewish origins.

If juan Fernandez De Estrada is proven to be his father then this very old “book” that I have is worth some money. It is an original book and is in great shape even though it is not a hard cover book. So if Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father I stand to make some money. There are only few copies of this book. Not only is it one of a few, I most likely have the one that is in the best condition since it does not have any folds or damage. The paper and ink used is proof of it being an original. It is in pristine condition.

Financially it would be great for me that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father, because then I would not feel guilty selling this book.

The Estrada family came from family with mixed old Christian and conversó ancestry. They were associated with the king. Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather was close to the king and a favorite of his. A member of the family married a distant cousin (not to distant as she descended from a brother of king Enrique Ii). The family was well paid. But the Kings favorite of the family was his illegitimate son, Alonso Estrada, that he had with the daughter of his friend. As the son of the king, Alonso was provided with a large annual salary, almost double the salary that was given to Hernan Cortez. This salary was large because he was the kings illegitimate son, and not because he was a treasurer. The other treasurers of the king did not receive anything near his salary.

Rick A. Ricci

Genealogy Research