Hi,
hmmm first time I saw that it was referred to as the Rio de Coculiten
and not just plain Coculiten. in another record it is called Ranchos de
Cuculiten.
I was just looking over a 1752 record of Clofia Diaz being baptised
See map. There are two Coculiten, one in Zacatecas and one in Jalisco.
Thank you
I recently took an Ancestry.com DNA test and when I got the results I was a bit puzzled.
You cannot simply look at the numerical result provided in the ancestry.com DNA report, you also have to look at the ranges, or uncertainties in those numbers.
Both my wife (who is of Mexican descent through all of her ancestors, with a typical mix of Spanish, Basque, Indian, and black ancestors) and I (with mainly British Isles and Central European ancestors, but no Mexican ancestry) did the ancestry.com test. My wife's Great Britain component is 3%, with a range of 0-13%. Based on our research a number closer to 0% makes more sense. My result is 18%, with a range of 0-44%. Based on our research, a number higher than 18% makes more sense.
The report is a specific number, with a range. Your "true" result could be anywhere in that range.
My point is that these numbers are only estimates, and some are subject to very substantial uncertainty.
George
George,
I have looked at the ranges, in my case the Great Britain ranges goes from 10%-40% . Even going by the lowest percentage, 10%, it is still more than I would've expected (0%) . Maybe this is something that has to do with the part of Spain that my ancestors were from. My Iberian percentage is at 20% with a range going from 10%-31%, which based on my research should be on the higher end.
Thanks,
Enrique
Enrique
When my wife and I looked at our Irish results, for example, we were both surprised. Our results were exactly the same, 11%. I have documented Irish ancestors, and my wife has none.
My conclusion is that ethnicity estimates are, at best, an inexact science. The results can be fun to talk about, but, don't take them too seriously.
I would not discourage anyone from doing a DNA test, after all they are interesting, but do a little research first. I am glad we did ours, and our children are in the process of doing them as well.
George
Hello - I haven't been on in quite some time, but have significantly updated my family tree through ancesty.com and myheritage.
Recently, I had my DNA done and was surprised with the results:
Spain/Portugal: 40%
Native American: 18%
Great Britain: 10%
Italy/Greece: 9%
Middle East: 12%
African:4%
A cousin (related only through the Herrera line also took the DNA test, and to my surprise, it also revealed Italian/Greece and Great Britain.
I have traced a line to Jose Prudencio De Miramontes Bobadilla 1781, and according to houseofnames.com, the last name Bobadilla first appeared in Sardinia, an island off of Italy. Now, if only I can figure out the association of the Great Britain surname.
That's a high percentage! My grandmother has a 10% for British Isles and 8% for Scandinavia. There is no paper trail that leads to either of those locations-- I guess those genes are persistent! My grandma's family is originally from the Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Guanajuato areas.
Hola a todos:
Pues sería útil que pudieran qué apellidos consideran probables para indicar un origen británico. Mis tíos Ramírez de Coy se hicieron el estudio YDNA y salió un 12% origen británico y otro 12% de Holanda. Éste último se relaciona con nuestros ancestros Alfaro Bravo de Lagunas, pero el británico podría provenir de los Ramírez o de los Dunan (Diinen).
Richard Ricci tiene una hipótesis sobre los Ledesma que podrían descender de un rey inglés, yo estudio a los Ledesma que provienen de Aguascalientes pero creo que fueron alemanes de Cracovia. Será necesario esperar a que hayan más resultados.
Saludos
Marcelina
Hola Marcelina,
Los apellidos que se pueden encontrar en mi arbol hasta bisabuelos son: Ochoa, Casillas, Magaña, Guzman, Cardenas, Soto, Mejia, Larios, Lazarid, Luna, Urzua, De la Mora. Ninguno suena ingles, es por eso que me sorprendio el resultado de ADN. No se que tan preciso sea la prueba de Ancestry.com pero estoy pensando en probar 23andme para despejar cualquier confusion. Solo queria saber si alguien mas se ha encontrado con resultados similares.
Gracias y saludos!
Enrique
Dear Rosa,
I disagree with your comment that there is no paper trail as I have constructed a paper trail from Jalisco to Great Britain and Scandinavia. These lines are a minority so there won't be a high percentage but I do have a step by step trail. It is a long trail of many, many centuries. Many of the people with different surnames that came to populate the new world were already related as third to seventh cousins and they descend from a common ancestor with a little British, little Scandinavian, little Italian little North African, little German, little Armenian,little middle eastern, more French and much more Iberian peninsula ancestries. The majority is Iberian Peninsula and what is now southern France.
Rick A. Ricci
Hola a todos:
Es verdad que hay algunas migraciones que se pueden rastrear por acontecimientos históricos, por ejemplo los romanos llevaron a España a muchos eslavos para ayudar en el cultivo de tierras roturadas. Pero además de esas migraciones antiguas existió movilidad debido a la pertenencia de hombres a los ejércitos regulares y a las órdenes militares.
Muchos soldados pasaron al sur de Francia y Norte de España en la cruzada contra los cátaros.
Mi ancestro Juan Bravo de Lagunas, conquistador de México desciende la rama de Brabante, Holanda y fue en 1548 el primer alcalde de Chichimecas, ahora Querétaro, Guanajuato, San Luis Potosí.
Sería interesante investigar la rama de la familia Casillas respecto del origen británico y la familia De la Mora como posible descendiente de eslavos. Hay apellidos que sí revelan su orígen por ejemplo "Farfán de los Godos" cuyos descendientes pasaron a Nueva España.
Guzmán proviene de Ibn Qutman.
Saludos
Marcelina
Rick,
I was referencing my own paper trail. I have no evidence of these connections in the records so far in my own tree. It wasn't a general observation.
Dear Rosalinda,
I took a look at your files and looked at the surnames that you are researching. Some of those surnames are names that I have been researching. I would have to see more of your files though to make a connection to my lines of research.
I have an small addition to your records. You wrote the following:
10. JOSE ANTONIO TEODORO4 URENA (ANTONIO EUCEBIO /DE3 URENA/, CALLETANO XINEZ /DE2, FRANCISCO/DE1) was born 1772. He married MARIA TOMASA DE LOS DOLORES SANCHEZ 16 Aug 1802 in Monte Escobedo, Zacatecas, Mexico25, daughter of JUAN SANCHEZ and MARIA VELASCO. She was born in Rancho de Las Bocas, Huejucar, Jalisco, Mexico25.
In the following marriage record you will find that the surname of Maria Tomasa de Los Dolores is Sanchez Castellanos and not just Sanchez.
Name Ramon Delgado
Spouse's Name Maria Del Carmen Urena
Event Date 02 May 1821
Event Place San Luis,Colotlan,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JC6V-9YZ : 15 July 2015), Ramon Delgado and Maria Del Carmen Urena, 02 May 1821; citing San Luis,Colotlan,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ;
FHL microfilm 443,784. Image 41 out of 482
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-FSS8-R2?mode=g&i=40&wc=3J4…
Rick A. Ricci
Thanks. Those files are years old, so I've been able to develop my tree quite a bit more. Feel free to send me a message through the site so we can compare notes.
I have been searching for Thomas de la Puente (LH8B-F6F, familysearch.org)-6th grandfather
marriage to Maria Ruis most of their children were born in venado, san luis potosi, mexico.
I descend from two "de la Puente" lines, I am not sure how they are related, but do believe they are close relatives as both are from the same general area.
The first line is as follows:
Diego de la Puente cc. Catalina López Rodríguez
Olaya de la Puente cc: Antonio de Medina, married on 20 Jun 1697 in Venado SLP
Luis de Medina cc. María Martínez de Sotomayor, dispensados 5 Apr 1733 Jalpa, Zacatecas.
Anastasia de Medina cc. Bernardo Ramírez de Oliva (I descend from two of their daughters)
a) María de Jesús Ramírez de Oliva cc. Rafael Ruiz de Salazar, b) Bárbara Ramírez de Oliva cc. Jesús González de Rubalcaba
The Ruiz de Salazar married into the Flores-Alatorre family who married into García de Rojas who married into Camino.
The González de Rubalcaba married into Velasco who married into García de Rojas and the López Portillo who married into Camino, my mother's lines.
The second lines is as follows:
Nicolás de la Puente cc. Tomasina Pérez de Contreras y Lomelín (originarios de Venado y vecinos Pinos)
Nicolás Cayetano de la Puente cc. Teresa de Limón y Quesada Hurtado de Mendoza married 21 Sep 1716 in Jalostotitlán.
Juana Manuela de la Puente y Mendoza cc. Fulgencio Martínez de Chávez
Cayetana Martínez de Chávez cc. Bruno Martínez de Saldaña (owned Hacienda de Abarcones)
Cristina Martínez de Chávez cc. José María Gallegos Méndez de Sotomayor
Josefa Gallegos Martínez de Chávez cc. Pedro de Oviedo Fernández de Córdoba (owned Hacienda La Labor y Palacio del Vínculo
Juliana de Oviedo cc. Andrés de Camino y Trasgallo (my mother's 5th great grandparents).
Any assistance would be appreciated. I am sure all of our Puente lines are related. Thank you in advance.
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
It seems almost all of the de la Puente (puente) lines are related. Each time I come across a de la Puente, I add to their line or keep it to see how they fit. I have Diego de la Puente and Rodrigues your relatives but have not found more records to confirm he is Thomas is son or relative. I came acroos him when I found Nicolas their son 21 Sep 1693 • San Sebastian,Venado,San Luis Potosi,Mexico. they have 13 children so far. based on the possible births I can look for their marriage record will let you when I find more. Your other relatives I have found but there seems to be two contreras and nicolas pretty sure they are the same only thing their sons are named nicolas and both have birthdates that are different. Will look to see if they are same.
It seems almost all of the de la Puente (puente) lines are related. Each time I come across a de la Puente, I add to their line or keep it to see how they fit. I have Diego de la Puente and Rodrigues your relatives but have not found more records to confirm he is Thomas is son or relative. I came acroos him when I found Nicolas their son 21 Sep 1693 • San Sebastian,Venado,San Luis Potosi,Mexico. they have 13 children so far. based on the possible births I can look for their marriage record will let you when I find more. Your other relatives I have found but there seems to be two contreras and nicolas pretty sure they are the same only thing their sons are named nicolas and both have birthdates that are different. Will look to see if they are same.
Hola Veronica y Daniel,
Diego de la Puente y Catalina Lopez Rodríguez y sus hijos aparecen en los mismos lugares que Tomas de la Puente y María Ruiz Conde - Venado, Charcas, Pinos. Probablemente son hermanos Diego y Tomas, los dos hijos de Tomas de la Puente cc Doña Ynes de Carrión Tremiño y Mata, aunque no he podido vincularlos. Puede ser que se casaron en Sagrario SLP Diego y Catalina, entre 1674 y junio 1677, busquenlos por alla.
Nicolas de Puente sí es hijo de Tomas de la Puente cc Ynes de Carrion, y la Tomasina Perez es hija de Nicolas Perez cc Luisa Contreras. Aqui su IM, 1 Oct 1675, Villa de San Miguel:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-2FS8-BT?i=646&cc=1883388
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Es posible que se relacione DIEGO DE LA PUENTE? El caso con Catalina Rodriguez en Venado aprox. en 1770, no tengo mayores datos de ellos. Solo se que su familia vino de Burgos.
Hola Simona,
Thomas de la Puente was son of Thomas de la Puente and Dona Ynes de Carrion. He was baptized 14 Apr 1647, San Matias, Pinos; his padrino was Alonso de Contreras, teniente deste Rl.
He married Maria Ruiz Conde on 05 Sep 1672, Sagrario, SLP; they did their IM 26 Aug 1672. She was daughter of Francisco Ruiz Conde and Gertrudis de Fuentes.
Here's their children who were born in SLP:
Joseph, 21 Dec 1673, Sagrario SLP
Ynes, 11 Feb 1679, Sagrario, SLP
Patricio, 06 Apr 1681, Sagrario, SLP
Ygnacio, 25 Mar 1683, Sagario, SLP
Andrea, 21 Dec 1684, Sagrario, SLP
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Thanks so much Manny for info. Thanks also to the other person who posted,sorry I did not get your name.
Simona,
I don't know if this Thomas de la Puente is related, but theres a Tomas de la Puente on the Wikitree, probably born around 1620
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_la_Puente-3
Danny C. Alonso
Danny thank you for the help and the interesting history of this couple!
Not sure if it is the same Thomas de la Puente, but he certainly fits the bill. There is another one that is Tomas and Maria Ruis that are not them since the children of Thomas and Maria Ruis are labelled Espl and there is another record of tomas married to a sotomayor. I now have to find records of marriages.
As for this Dispensa that is not recorded in the marriage that I could read 3 generations are given because they are 2nd cousins. I do have them in my family as in-laws today, tomorrow they could be grandparents who knows. Anyway, what was more interesting was the different testigos all stating that the young couple did not know they were cousins but Esteban Munos stated he overheard they were from his wife Xsabel Nieto. In the beginning was the priest stating that they had been cleaned of their blood "the limpiesa de sangre" de toda mala vasa de judios, Moros and they stated this again and again. I had read it in books but not seen it written. Don't know what Vasa means.
Thanks again for your help here is the Dispensa. the record ID for Ysabel de Carrion is 9QTN-HK8
Alguien ha encontrado habitantes de Mecatabasco o Valle de huejucar antes de 1750?
Desafortunadamente los registros parroquiales de Jalpa efectivamente son perdidos o quemados. Pero las parroquias circunvecinas como las de Teocaltiche, Mezquitic, Aguascalientes, el Teúl, Moyahua, Momax, Tlatenango, Momax, etc. He estudiado esta región por más de 15 años y he notado que mucha de la población en esta area del Valle de Huejúcar, Huanusco y Tabasco llegaron de estas áreas. Tendrás que revisar muchísimos registros pero vale la pena. Mi vínculo a esta región es por mi mamá que nació en Aguascalientes pero fue criada en Calvillo.
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
Mi libro sobre las familias antiguas de Tlaltenango que incluye padrones y transcripciones de registros parroquiales de los siglos XVII y XVIII del pueblo de Tlaltenango, así como mapas ineditos de l
Arturo,
I'm so glad to see your notice about your book. You share many lines of ancestry with my children. They are descended from Jose Felix Serrano, son of Jose Francisco Serrano and Maria Agapita Cornejo. The family spans from Villa Guerrero and Totatiche back to Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman.
I'd like to buy a copy of the book and since this notice is several years old I wondered if it was available now in an Ebook or Kindle version.
Best wishes,
Allison Peacock
Austin, TX
After reading up your listings I see that all of your books are in Spanish. The automatic translation of Google Chrome makes this hard to see unless I scroll down to the bottom of the Lulu page. While it's convenient for research, it's confusing sometimes.
Do you have any plans to publish these in English?
Hi Arturo,
I have this book. Its been a tremendous help to validate my research and to provide the much needed bread crumbs on some of my hard to find lines. Will you ever do a follow-up book? Perhaps on the older generations back to spain?
Either way am very grateful for your work as I have many lines from Tlaltenango and surrounding areas.
Best,
Pauline (Maven200)
There is a table of contents and name index for the book available for preview at the following link, below the cover of the book:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/familias-antiguas-de-tlaltenango/…
The publisher does ship to Mexico, by regular mail (USPS and Sepomex) and I believe the cost is $11. I will try to make arrangements to have the book distributed in Mexico by some other means as well.
Hay un indice tematico y uno onomastico para el libro en la prevista que se puede ver en el proximo vinculo, debajo de la imagen de la tapa del libro:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/familias-antiguas-de-tlaltenango/…
La editorial si hace envios a Mexico, pero es por correo sencillo (USPS y Sepomex) y creo que el costo de envio es de $11. Intentare arreglar que el libro se distribuya en Mexico a traves de otra manera.
El "preview" del libro no funciona.
Sergio Gutierrez
He montado una prevista del libro en mi carpeta en Nuestros Ranchos con el indice onomastico:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13649
I have uploaded a preview of my book with the name index into my file folder in Nuestros Ranchos:
Estimado Don Arturo:
Ayer recibí su libro y me apresuro a felicitarlo por su realización y
agradecerle infinito la fina atención que tuvo de enviármelo.
Con motivo de ello, hoy me reuní con el famoso padre Salvador Treviño (el
sabio jesuita genealogista) quien ha estudiado mucho a las familias oriundas
de Tlaltenango desde hace treinta años. Le adelanto que se quedó gratamente
impresionado con su trabajo y estuvimos elaborando una serie de reflexiones
en torno a la identidad de Hernando de Haro, para distinguir al de
Compostela con el de Zacatecas y creo que la cosa nos va a resultar por el
lado de Maria de Saucedo y Haro.
Lo tendré al tanto de nuestras discusiones.
Entretanto, le enviamos un cordial saludo y, de nuevo, mi agradecimiento
Guillermo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: announce-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:announce-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de
arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Enviado el: Sábado, 08 de Enero de 2011 06:32 p.m.
Para: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Familias Antiguas de
He montado una prevista del libro en mi carpeta en Nuestros Ranchos con el
indice onomastico:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13649
I have uploaded a preview of my book with the name index into my file folder
in Nuestros Ranchos:
Don Guillermo:
Me alegra much saber que tanto a Vd. como al padre Salvador les impresionó
mi obra. Le cuento que la comenzé hace mas de tres años y estoy muy feliz
de por fin haberla realizado.
Me había platicado que tenía en su poseción algunos documentos sobre la
ascendencia de Maria Saucedo que la conectaban definitivamente con Juan
Delgado y Pedro Bobadilla. Le agradecería muchísimo si pudiera compartirlos
conmigo.
Me encantaría tambián poder conversar con Vd. y el padre Salvador sobre la
cuestion del vínculo entre Hernando de Haro de Compostela y el hijo de Maria
Saucedo.
Finalmente, le cuento que el proyecto de las notarías de Zacatecas está a
punto de realizarse gracias a los esfuerzos de los voluntarios de Nuestros
Ranchos. Vd. puede ver el progreso y el producto como se presentara al
público ya que quede terminado en:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/notary
2011/1/19 Guillermo Tovar
> Estimado Don Arturo:
>
> Ayer recibí su libro y me apresuro a felicitarlo por su realización y
> agradecerle infinito la fina atención que tuvo de enviármelo.
>
> Con motivo de ello, hoy me reuní con el famoso padre Salvador Treviño (el
> sabio jesuita genealogista) quien ha estudiado mucho a las familias
> oriundas
> de Tlaltenango desde hace treinta años. Le adelanto que se quedó gratamente
> impresionado con su trabajo y estuvimos elaborando una serie de reflexiones
> en torno a la identidad de Hernando de Haro, para distinguir al de
> Compostela con el de Zacatecas y creo que la cosa nos va a resultar por el
> lado de Maria de Saucedo y Haro.
>
> Lo tendré al tanto de nuestras discusiones.
>
> Entretanto, le enviamos un cordial saludo y, de nuevo, mi agradecimiento
>
> Guillermo
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: announce-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:announce-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de
> arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
> Enviado el: Sábado, 08 de Enero de 2011 06:32 p.m.
> Para: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Familias Antiguas de
>
> He montado una prevista del libro en mi carpeta en Nuestros Ranchos con el
> indice onomastico:
>
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13649
>
> I have uploaded a preview of my book with the name index into my file
> folder
> in Nuestros Ranchos:
>
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13649
Arturo, inicié sesión en Nuestros Ranchos pero, aún así, no puedo entrar al sitio http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/notary. ¿Cómo puedo hacerlo?
Luis
Is it possible to provide a table of contents for your book?
Sergio Gutierrez
Gracias por las noticias Arturo. Estoy muy ancioso de comprar su libro sobre las primeras
familias de Tlatenango. Realmente para un genealogista novohispano o neogallego es importante
estudiar todo que lo contiene. Al respeto de Tlatenango era un puesto importantisimo en Zacatecas
durante la colonia. Esa area entre Tabasco, Juchipila, Jalpa y Nochistlan, Tlatenango, etc ya que sabemos
que entre estos lugares habia mucha migracion entre ellos y de los Altos de Jalisco y Aguascalientes.
Al respeto de Tlatenango, mis lineas que llegan ahi son los Flores-Alatorre, Fernandez de Lamas,
Rojas-Barrera, Miramontes, los Haro como ya menciono, familias que llegaron tambien a Aguascalientes,
donde la mayoridad de mis estudio y enfoco es ya que es el lugar de mi familia materna.
Tambien mi libro ya viene que se publicara en algunos meses,
Extracciones de espan~oles en los archivos de Aguascalientes: Siglo XVII ,
No solo se enfocara en los libros parroquiales de dicho siglo (bautismos, matrimonios, defunciones)
Sino tambien un estudio sobre ese siglo y sus primeras familias que construyeron la sociedad entre ella.
Daniel Méndez y Camino
Good morning primos!
Hola Danny:
Hay un artículo publicado como "Del Siglo VIII al XXI: Apuntes Genealógicos del marquesado de Villamayor de las Hibernias en el Blog Genealogía Novohispana:
genealogíanovohispana.blogspot.mx/2011_09_01archive.htlm
Ahí viene la genealogía paterna de Don Hernando, quien desciende de la casa de los Fernández de Córdoba del Señorío de Guadalcázar.
Por la parte materna desciende de Don Egidio Bocanegra almirante de Castilla, cuyos descendientes son del señorío de Palma del Río.
Alfaro
Puedes leer en la página genelógica Alfaro buscando como "Los caballeros Sevillanos Alfaro Bravo de Lagunas" esta familia trabajó en favor del Duque de Béjar tanto en España como en Nueva España y otros virreinatos.
Ponce de León
En el libro Sumaria Relación de las cosas de la Nueva España de Baltasar Dorantes de Carranza se mencionan varias mujeres de la familia Ponce De León casadas con las familias de los conquistadores Vázquez de Coronado, Pérez de Bocanegra.
Saludos
Marcelina
The Ponce surname appeared in my Lagos de Moreno ancestry and then quickly disappeared. Just one generation. Francisco Mena cc Anna Maria Ponce are my ancestors. Also in Lagos was a contemporary couple, Antonio Mena cc Getrudis Ponce. Here’s what I have in my files. I hope someone can break through this line and help me out.
Francisco Mena cc Anna Maria Ponce had at least two children.
(1) Toribio Baltazar bap. 29 Apr 1716 Lagos
(2) Jose Antonio m. Juana Baptista Moreno, dtr of Juan Antonio Moreno and Anna Maria Galban, m. 10 Apr 1736 (Film 221513)
(Per 7 Feb 1776 dispensation I think Francisco Mena had brother Juan Antonio Mena. Film 168385)
Antonio Mena cc Getrudis Ponce had at least eight children.
(1) Juan Antonio bap. 23 Jun 1687 Irapuato, Gto. (Film 632748). Per Lagos M.I. Film 221568 8 Jul 1713 he was to marry Ysidora Velasquez of San Felipe, Michoacan, who had been in Lagos ten months. She was widow of Antonio Hernandez of Mexico City. Ysidora was hija natural of Jasinto Velasquez deceased.
On 25 Jan 1738 Lagos M.I. film 221580, Juan Antonio gave information to marry Francisca Xaviera de Amador. He claimed to be 40 years old (!) and she was 16.
(2) Maria bap. 18 Dec 1689 Lagos. Godparents were Francisco Tavera de la Vega and his daughter Maria Tavera.
(3) Miguel bap. 27 Feb 1692 Lagos (Film 221405). I noted that he married Felipa Truxillo, daughter of Santiago Truxillo and Sebastiana Lopez, on 14 May 1723 in Purisima, but I do not have any references for this entry.
(4) Getrudis bap. 25 Nov 1693 (Film 221405). Per Lagos M. I. film 221568 she was to marry Augustine Duran, hl Alonso Duran and Augustina Quesada, both deceased and from San Francisco del Rincon. Getrudis was originally from and lived in La Labor de San Pedro (Lagos) owned by Fulgencio Gonzalez de Rubalcava el moso.
(5) Vicente Ferrer bap. 22 Feb 1696 Lagos (Film 221405). On 21 Feb 1729 per Lagos Film 221513 he married Ana Maria de los Dolores Amador, daughter of Marcelo Amador and Juana Maria Lopez.
(6) Carlos Antonio bap 10 Feb 1699 (Film 221405). He gave 6 Jan 1725 M.I. (Film 221574) to wed Michaela Velasquez, originally from Silao, HL of Francisco Velasquez and Leonor Teresa del Castillo. They both claimed to be 24 years old. They wed in Lagos on 4 Feb 1725 (Film 221513).
On 19 Dec 1738 Lagos M.I. film 221580, Carlos Antonio gave information to marry Josepha Gertrudis de Soto. He claimed to be 34, she 18.
(7) Joseph Cayetano married Getrudis Lopez de Lara, daughter of Cristobal Lopez and Ynes Lopez de Lara, on 6 Jun 1728 in Lagos (Film 221513).
(8) Melchora married Mathias de Ledesma, son of Mathias de Ledesma and Marta Gonzalez, on 20 Oct 1717 in Lagos. I do not have a reference for this entry.
In at least one entry Getrudis Ponce, wife of Antonio Mena, was referred to as Getrudis Ponce de Leon.
Per computer research of the IGI, the earliest Ponce entries for Lagos de Moreno are Antonio Ponse cc Petrona de Olivares. Their children are Maria b. 29 Sep 1681, Magdalena b. 2 Feb 1693, and Petrona b. 27 Jun 1696.
Furthermore, I offer this footnote I wrote (who knows when?) on Getrudis Ponce cc Antonio Mena. “Getrudis may be the daughter of Juan Ponce de Leon (son of another Juan Ponce de Leon and Maria de Carpinteiro) orig Pueblo, who married twice. First wife was Antonia de Yepes. Second wife was Maria de Quezada. His will ca. 1688.”
I considered not included this last note because I have no documented reference. Plus because of my handwriting I’m not sure if I meant to say he was originally from “este pueblo” or “Puebla.” It looks like a definite “o” but I didn’t write the name of the pueblo! I’ll look through my files and see if I can identify my source, but that may take a while. So with caveats and apologies I’m still passing this on.
Mary Lou Montagna
Dear Mary Lou,
In the 1600's there was a family that was often connected to the Ponce de Leon family named "Lopez de Mena."
Florida is a place where you may be able to find more information on the Ponce de Leon and the Lopez de Mena. In the 1600's these families were moving around trying to find a place to finally settle down.
Here is a record that may help your research:
Name Mariana Cortes Ponce
Gender Female
Christening Date 18 May 1689
Christening Place Téul de González Ortega, Zacatecas, Mexico
Father's Name Juan Antonio Cortes
Mother's Name Maria Ponce
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYXN-7P2 : 12 December 2014), Mariana Cortes Ponce, 18 May 1689; citing Teúl de González Ortega, Zacatecas, Mexico, reference 167; FHL microfilm 1,164,316
Good Luck,
Rick A. Ricci
Looking through my Tello de Orozco line I found another little brick concerning the Ponce de León :
I have that Joseph Tello de Orozco y Carvajal Figueroa (1605-1681) grandson of Dr Jerónimo de Orozco, married ca 1630 Antonia Ponce de León y... Castilla!
Now this lastname Castilla may be of help to find the parents of this Antonia. Hope we'll make some progress.
Peredo,
This is also an area of interest to me.
My 8th great grandmother was Maria de Sandobal, born about 1685 in Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico.
She was the daughter of Francisco de Sandobal and Juana Ponce (Ponze, Ponse), born about 1660-65. My family tree has a well documented line back to Juana.
Having said that, there are numerous trees on Ancestry.com that have Juana as the daughter of Catalina Ponce de Leon and back to the famous explorer. I have never found a Baptism record for Juana and thus can't confirm that relationship. If someone can provide a document to prove the link, I would be the 15 great grandson of Juan Ponce de Leon
This link is an example of one of those posted family trees:
http://person.ancestry.com/tree/28477012/person/12491890250/facts
I own a copy of John J. Browne Ayes' book: Juan Ponce de Leon - His New and Revised Genealogy. I'll look to see if there is any mention of Hernan. Thanks for bringing this question to the forefront as I had it on the back burner while focusing on my maternal Italian line.
Regards,
Roy
I'd be happy to provide the remainder of Juana Ponce's descendants to anyone interested.
p.s. Juan Ponce de Leon is referenced on page 187:
http://www.institutogenealogia.org/Revista_bajar/Genealogia_Revista_17…
Hola Peredo:
Don Hernando Pérez de Córdoba y Bocanegra desciende por línea materna de la familia Ponce De León, esta familia la encontré hace un tiempo en Geneall.net
Don Hernando recibió la encomienda de Acámbaro, Guanajuato y más tarde fue Señor de Los Apaseos. Su descendencia pasó a Pátzcuaro, quizá la heroína Gertrudis Bocanegra sea su pariente. Los allegados de Don Hernando pudieron establecerse en la misma zona, por eso creo que tu ancestro pueda estar relacionado con esta rama. Encontré a un hermano de Don Hernando que utilizaba directamente el apellido Ponce de León, pero era monje.
Alfaro
La familia Alfaro podría ser la misma que los Ramírez de Coy, ya que heredaron el apellido Alfaro por vía materna y en ocasiones lo utilizaban así como Alfaro o completo como "Alfaro Bravo de Lagunas" descienden del caballero Don Sáncho Bravo de Lagunas alcaide de la fortaleza de Gibraleón.
Saludos
Marcelina
Marcelina,
Do you have the link to the ancestry of Don Hernando Pérez de Córdoba y Bocanegra and the link to the information on the Alfaro. I connect to the Alfaro through the same Catalina de Anguino/Ponce already mentioned.
Danny C. Alonso
Peredo,
This is also an area of interest to me.
My 8th great grandmother was Maria de Sandobal, born about 1685 in Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico.
She was the daughter of Francisco de Sandobal and Juana Ponce (Ponze, Ponse), born about 1660-65. My family tree has a well documented line back to Juana.
Having said that, there are numerous trees on Ancestry.com that have Juana as the daughter of Catalina Ponce de Leon and back to the famous explorer. I have never found a Baptism record for Juana and thus can't confirm that relationship. If someone can provide a document to prove the link, I would be the 15 great grandson of Juan Ponce de Leon
This link is an example of one of those posted family trees:
http://person.ancestry.com/tree/28477012/person/12491890250/facts
I own a copy of John J. Browne Ayes' book: Juan Ponce de Leon - His New and Revised Genealogy. I'll look to see if there is any mention of Hernan. Thanks for bringing this question to the forefront as I had it on the back burner while focusing on my maternal Italian line.
Regards,
Roy
I'd be happy to provide the remainder of Juan Ponce (Ponze)
Correction:
Hernán Ponce de León y Pardo (the third) married in Valladolid Michoacán in 1571 to Mariana de Maldonado y Castro. Hernán was the nephew of the Canónigo Jerónimo García Rodríguez Pardo, who brought him from Spain when Hernán was 13 years old.
We know that Hernán (the third) was the son of another Hernán and María de Pardo, and grandson of Hernán Ponce de León (who could be the conqueror)
Hola:
La familia Ponce De León es una de las ramas que descienden de la casa Ramírez de la Piscina de Navarra, la rama principal desciende del Duque de Arcos extendido en el sur de Andalucía.
Algunos pasaron a Nueva España en 1527, venían Don Hernando Pérez de Córdova y Bocanegra y su tío Don Luis Ponce De León. Se atribuyó a Hernán Cortés el envenenamiento de éste último, Don Hernando, descendiente de los Fernandez de Córdova y de los señores de la Monclova y Palma del Río pasó a la conquista de Nueva Galicia. Su nieto Don Francisco Pacheco de Córdova fue Adelantado de Nueva Galicia y la familia se extendió entre la ciudad de México y la de Guadalajara.
Saludos
Marcelina
Gracias Marcelina, había visto ya alguna información sobre el licenciado Luis Ponce de León así como de Juan Ponce de León quien fue gobernador de Puerto Rico y explorador de La Florida, pero aún no sé cual era su relación con mi Hernán Ponce de León que llegó a Pátzcuaro hacia el año 1560.
El libro "Familias y casas de la Vieja Valladolid menciona a mis antepasados y dice que descendían de los antiguos condes de Tolosa en Francia
Hi Carlos,
I descend from the Ponce family in Aguascalientes but I think there is a Michoacán connection, I just haven't been able to figure it out. My 8th Great Grandfather Bartolomé Joseph Ponce born in 1697 in Aguascalientes was the son of Miguel Martel and Doña Catalina Velázquez y Anguiano, aka Catalina Anguiano, aka Doña Catalina Ponce and oddly enough, before her marriage to Miguel Martel she was widowed from Nicolás Ponce. Catalina Ponce/Anguiano/Velázquez died in 1745 and I'm guessing based on her two marriages she was born around 1665. Her defunción lists her place of birth as Pátzcuaro, Michoacán and a testament names her parents as Diego de Matoso and Luisa de Alfaro, so the Ponce doesn't come from either parent, so it must be from one of her grandparents. When I was looking in family search for Catalina Ponce/Anguiano/Velázquez, there was a different Catalina Anguiano that was buried in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán in 1688 and her parents are named as Diego López de Anguiano and María Velázquez de Alfaro, I would guess, based on their names that they're the maternal grandparents of my Catalina Ponce/Anguiano/Velázquez and parents of Luisa de Alfaro. But, other than that, I have no clue how Doña Catalina came to use Ponce or also if she is in someway related to her first husband Nicolás Ponce. But, the Ponce name was obviously more important to her descendants since they chose to pass that on down to the 1900s, so, the Ponce name was obviously more important than the Martel name and their Martel's descended from Capitán Hernando Martel, the founder of Lagos. You can find Catalina Ponce/Anguiano/Velázquez here:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Anguiano_y_Velasco-1
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: mimilozano@somosprimos.com [mailto:mimilozano@somosprimos.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:51 PM
To: mimilozano@aol.com
Subject: Somos Primos "We are cousins"
Hola a todos los genealogistas:
Estoy publicando una primera lista de los apellidos africanos que he encontrado en Familysearch:
1. Angola
2. Biafra o Biafara
3. Ferranovo
Muy interesante gracias, pero dígame como hago para búscalos? con gusto ayudare en lo que pueda .
Where can I find information and books on the history, ranches and properties and maps of San Julian Jalisco and San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de Moreno Jalisco .
Where can I find information and books on the history, ranches and properties and maps of San Julian Jalisco and San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de Moreno Jalisco .
Maria Rita Valencia es "hija legitima de Lorenzo Valencia y Juana "Petra" Gertrudis Gonzalez (aka Juana Gert. Maldonado)
Juana Gertrudis Gonzalez is the daughter of ANTONIO GONZALEZ de. Mendoza and PETRONA (Petra) Gutierrez Maldonado.
Lorenzo's mother is Josepha Martinez. I have not been able to figure out the first name of Lorenzo's father. It is in the record below. Here is the Link: bottom left corner.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5SL-2X?mode=g&i=286&wc=3J…
Maria Antta. Balencia Gonzales española
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Sep 1737
Christening Place OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Lorenzo Balencia
Mother's Name Juana Gonzales
Padrinos Manuel Castellanos and Antonia Flores
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB9P-HBG : 12 December 2014), Lorenzo Balencia in entry for Maria Antta. Balencia Gonzales, 08 Sep 1737; citing OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ;
FHL microfilm 280,856.
Image 283 out of 474
Lorenso Valencia
mentioned in the record of Lorenso Valencia and Juana Getrudis Maldonado
Name Lorenso Valencia son of ? Valencia and Josepha Martinez
Spouse's Name Juana Getrudis Maldonado daughter of Antonio Gonzalez and Petra Gutierrez Maldonado
Event Date 10 Dec 1736
Event Place Ocotlan,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"Mexico Marriages, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCDH-J9D : 15 July 2015), Lorenso Valencia and Juana Getrudis Maldonado, 10 Dec 1736; citing Ocotlan,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ;
FHL microfilm 280,893. Image 287 out of 497
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5SL-2X?mode=g&i=286&wc=3J…
Name Josepha Gonzales Gutierres
Gender Female
Christening Date 04 Sep 1724
Christening Place OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Antto. Gonzales
Mother's Name Petrona Gutierres Maldonado
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK7L-RB4 : 12 December 2014), Petrona Gutierres Maldonado in entry for Josepha Gonzales Gutierres, 04 Sep 1724; citing OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ;
FHL microfilm 280,893.
Rick A. Ricci
Dear Simona,
You are most likely correct that it is Nicolas. After you responded I still had my doubts so I looked for other words that may start with a capital N written by this scribe. The writer also wrote the "N" in Navarro the same way.
Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci
Dear Ruben,
It was my lucky day when you went out of your way to help me find the record. With your help, I have been able to go back centuries.
Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci
/////////////////////////////
Domingo and Rita marriage record
Submitted by Ruben Hdez on Tue, 2016-07-19 10:09.
Rick,
Two good news for you:
1) Date of marriage (Feb. 09/1762) is an indexing mistake. Correct date is Feb. 09/1763. You can find the record in image 330 of 495, Marriages 1736-1771 (Page 270; record 399).
2) It does include parents names.
reply
Dear Minerva,
The Antonio Cortes and his wife Margarita de Espejo that you recommended that I take a look at turned out to be Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga and Margarita Gomez de Espejo, parents of my ancestor Antonio Cortes married to Josepha Contreras. I very much appreciate your help in continuing my line.
Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci
Previous post:
///////////////////////
Antonio Cortes and Margarita de Espejo
Submitted by mflores on Thu, 2016-07-21 01:18.
Hi Rick,
Coincidentally, I was looking at Diego de Estrada and Antonia Velasco de Espejo’s marriage certificate today.
Also, I do agree with you that the father’s name for Maria Cortes is Antonio instead of Hernando.
Maybe you might want to look into the marriage certificate of Sebastian de Azeves and Margarita de Espejo (17/July/1709). This marriage certificate mentions Antonio Cortes and Margarita de Espejo as parents of Margarita de Espejo. Not sure if this is the same Antonio Cortes who later marries Josepha Contreras?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K795-5V?i=126&wc=3JDW-JWL%…
We seem to be looking into the same film numbers so I will keep you posted if I find something that might be of interest.
Good luck,
Minerva
I just posted this info on Diego Estrada Bocanegra y Muñoz de la Barba but am also posting it here since they are connected.
Diego Estrada Bocanegra y Muñoz de la Barba
Submitted by R.A.Ricci on Wed, 2016-07-20 22:41.
Diego Estrada Bocanegra y Muñoz de Barba is the illegitimate son of Pedro Estrada Bocanegra and Ana Muñoz de la Barba.
Josefa Muñoz de la Barba and Juan De la Torre Ledesma y Palafox are the parents of Maria Ledesma (Aka Maria Gonzalez) and Antonia Ledesma. Both daughters are illegitimate as Juan de la Torre Ledesma is legally married to Isabel Marquez y Martin del Campo. It's taken many years to finally put this line together.
Ana Muñoz de la Barba and Josefa Munoz de la Barba are the daughters of Francisco Muñoz de las Barba and Catalina Gonzalez-Rubio (aka Gutierrez-Rubio)
Francisco Muñoz de la Barba is the son of Juan Muñoz de la Barba and Ann de Espindola II
Catalina is the daughter of Captain Francisco Gutierrez-Rubio and Anna Gonzalez Florida.
Thanks to Joe, Ruben, Simona, Steven (Paco) and Alexandro for helping with important pieces of the puzzle. It was a fantastic feeling to finally add the final pieces and put them together the past two days. Steven and Alejandro's contribution came many years ago but without their two cents I wouldn't been in position to put it together. Ruben's piece took me back another generation, and then Joe's piece (dispensa) added yet another generation. Going back and looking at my notes and a few dispensas on these families brought it all together.
Thanks again,
R.ick A. Ricci
Source; Mygenes2000 by R.A.Ricci
Estimado R.A. Ricci
La aclaración consiste en que esta información antigua de Puebla en el años noventa, conocí a Guillermo de Tovar y de Teresa, quien me pidió unos datos de el en los Altos de Jalisco, datos que yo tenía y que con mucho gusto le proporcione, al mismo tiempo le comente que yo tenía verdadera urgencia de varias partidas del Sagrario de Puebla y le decía que no tenía más remedio que ir hasta allá por ellas.
Me contesto mire que casualidad yo en este momento estoy en Puebla con un equipo de personas que estamos fotocopiando todo el Archivo del Sagrario y que mejor que corresponder a su atención para conmigo que ayudarle con esas actas nada dígame y yo las fotocopio y se las envió; le conteste Don Guillermo no sé si me atreva porque son más de 60 copias y seria abusar de su bondad, y me contesto, nada, nada usted deme los datos y yo con mucho se las envió
Acepte su bondadosa ayuda y me pregunto qué apellido estudiaba y le conteste es que acabo de decifrar y aclarar el origen del apellido Muñoz de la Barba del cual desciendo y que tiene su asiento en los Altos de Jalisco, solicitándole al mismo tiempo su discreción sobre el tema porque ya ve que los piratas están muy activos y a la orden del día, esas más de 60 fotocopias tratan de esta familia ya con el apellido completo aquí en Puebla y nada más falta encontrar al genearca de la meseta alteña Don Francisco Muñoz de la Barba. Me contesto no se preocupe cuente con mi discreción y si llego a necesitar algo de esa familia primero le preguntare a usted. Fiel a su palabra a los 10 días, recibí las más de 60 copias. Hasta aquí la ayuda del Sr. de Tovar conmigo
Ante un nutrido grupo de genealogistas expuse mi teoría y solo pedí que respetaran mi autoría. Pero el efecto fue al contrario porque en ese tiempo surgió un Dr. Carlos Barba Gómez de Guadalajara, promoviendo reuniones de la familia Barba, Alguien me dijo que me llamarían para que expusiera mi teoría poblana de los Muñoz de la Barba. Pero no fue así porque un famoso personaje de León se interpuso y al poco tiempo y por alguien desconocido recibí el prólogo de un libro sobre la familia Barba y!! ho!ho!! Sorpresa eran todos mis datos con aciertos y errores.
En todo mi estudio yo nunca mencione que Juan Muñoz de la Barba fuera el padre de Francisco Muñoz de la Barba, era un enlace que me aproximo porque allí estaba ya origen del apellido, pero como ese prólogo de ese libro tiene un origen espurio por que el autor nunca estudio ni reviso, es más nunca le intereso esta familia hasta entonces y se limitó a copiar literalmente y sin analizar. Y es de allí que muchos estudiosos de la genealogía repiten un dato que no es verdad, pero recuerde que en las tesis liberales dicen que si una mentira se repite mil veces termina siendo verdad, afortunadamente en genealogía esto no aplica, porque en ella solo funciona la verdad.
La realidad es que Alonso Hernández de la Barba y su esposa Lucia Muñoz tuvo como hijos a a)Francisco b)al sacerdote de Jalapa Alonso Muñoz c) Baltasar c) Gaspar y Juan Muñoz de la Barba, además de varias hijas; esto sin olvidar que otro personaje, posiblemente hermano o pariente también contemporáneo y vecino de Puebla, Martin García de la Barba, casado y con hijos, entonces de cualquiera de los anteriores incluidas las mujeres, porque tenemos varios linajes que su origen no es por varonía sino que vienen de mujer, como los Márquez Alteños, viene de mujer su apellido y que no son Márquez de los Olivos, aunque alguien diga lo contrario.
Estimado R.A.-Ricci, le pido de favor que no siga propagando el error de que Francisco Muñoz de la Barba es Hijo de Juan Muñoz de la Barba, porque yo ya revise el Sagrario de Puebla buscando su acta y si Juan tiene un hijo francisco , pero nacido en 1604, lo cual hace imposible que sea nuestro genearca.
También quiero aclarar que el famoso personaje de León que escribe el prólogo del libro del Dr. Carlos Barba Gómez, como sabía que él no era el autor de esos datos pone como parapeto al propio Dr. Carlos Barba Gómez y a un Notario de Tepatitlán, yo creo que su conciencia algo le decía que esos datos le podían estallar en la cara y por eso los puso, el Dr. Barba carece de la experiencia de un investigador nato y fue nada más un recopilador y no capaz de realizar una investigación como las hacemos nosotros; en cuanto al notario para no expresar las palabras que lo puede definir simplemente diré, que él también se autonombra autor de un trabajo sobre la familia Casillas y Cabrera, pero él no es el autor el verdadero autor fue un periodista de Tepatitlán, Jal. llamado José Alberto Casillas y Martin del campo, investigador nato, pero muy desordenado y sus libros son un verdadero tratado de cómo no se debe hacer un libro, yo tengo todos sus libros, trabajos de los cuales el mencionado Notario de Tepatitlán se apropió y se ostenta como autor y trabajo que el prologuista lo incorporo en uno de sus libros y cuando le reclamaron por el desorden que tenían, se defendió diciendo que el autor era el notario de Tepatitlán y que el solo lo había incorporado en sus obras, sin otro particular le envió un cordial saludo y estoy al pendiente de sus posibles preguntas.
A T E N T A M E N T E
Ing. José de Jesús Barba Ornelas
León, Guanajuato
Estimado Jose de Jesus,
Has tocado muchos puntos y por eso tengo muchas preguntas. El primer punto es que Francisco Muñoz de la Barba es hijo de Alonso Hernandez de la Barba y Lucia Muñoz.
Tu escriviste:
Alonso Hernández de la Barba y su esposa Lucia Muñoz tuvo como hijos a a)Francisco b)al sacerdote de Jalapa Alonso Muñoz c) Baltasar c) Gaspar y d) Juan Muñoz de la Barba
El primer hijo de Alonso Hernandez de la Barba y Lucia Muñoz, Francisco, tuvo otro hijo llamado Francisco Muñoz de La Barba.
Mi pregunta es: Cual Francisco Muñoz de la Barba es el padre de Ana, el hijo ó nieto de Alonso Hernandez de la Barba?
Perdoname pero no quiero comentar sobre el problema que mencionas de la informacíon que le pediste al señor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar porque se trata de familia.
El Doctor Carlos Barba Gomez es hijo de mi tio "Pepe" Barba Rubio. El Doctor Jose "Pepe" Barba Rubio es medio primo hermano de uno de mis abuelos. El parentesco es por la abuela paterna, Maria Dominga Perez de Paredes y Navarro, del Doctor Barba Rubio. Yo desciendo de Maria Dominga Perez de Paredes y Navarro y su primer esposo. Tambien soy pariente mas lejano por lo Barba.
Mi tio abuelo materno, Doctor Rito Romo Franco, fue muy amigo de los dos hombres, Mariano Gonzalez Leal y Pepe Barba Rubio. Mis tios Rito y Pepe eran ademas de ser doctores, estudiantes de la genealogia de la familia. Tengo muchos buenos recuerdos de sus platicas sobre nuestra genealogia.
Tengo muchas preguntas sobre la familia de Alonso Hernandez de Barba and Lucia Muñoz. Has escrito un libro sobre esta informacíon ?
Si tengo un libro de genealogia escrito por Jose Alberto Casillas y Martin del Campo. Fue mi primer libro de genealogía. Es cierto que no es ejemplo de como escribir un libro de genealogia pero tiene mucha information, y algunos errores.
Gracias,
Ricardo
Estimado Ricardo
Buenas tardes, te saludo con gusto y comento yo conoci personalmente a Hector Romo Barba y el Dr. Rito Romo Franco fué gran amigo de mi padre,quien fué el verdadero descubridor de las poquianchis y que fue mas ardid político que verdad porque el verdadero motivo es que el gobernador Torres Landa lo que queria era desaparecer todas las zonas de tolerancia de Guanajuato, yo fui amigo personal de Don Donaciano Romo Franco y de su espasa la Sra. Barba, quienes vivian en la calle Irapuato en León; en cuanto a Hector en una ocación le hable por telefono y le propuse que nos unieramos para acelerar la investigación de los Barba porque el personaje de León y Jaime Helcombe no les interesaba porque ellos estaban concentrados en sus propias investigaciones,en aquel tiempo no se conocia por donde conectaba Juana Gertrudes de Villaseñor y Franco de Paredes ni se sabia quien era Toribio Muñoz de la Barba, hasta que yo los encontre y comparti este conocimiento con el personaje de León y Jaime Helcombe; se que los familiares de Jaime vendieron todo su archivo, pero nunca pensaron que Jaime tenia compromisos de privacia con varios investigadores y fue de esa manera que todos mis datos empezaron a aparecer por todos lados ya que estaban contenidos en las cartas que vendieron, dandole la autoria a Helcombe, cuando en realidad pertenecian a varios investigadores, yo entre ellos, yo conservo copia de todas las cartas que le envie y tengo los originales de las cartas que Jaime me enviaba, esto es por si alguien de donde sea se siente ofendido por mi dicho y quieren llevar esto a otra instancia estoy pronto a contestar. Al final cuando yo publique mi obra, la historia pondra a cada quien en su lugar, para terminar con este tema te dejo la siguiente reflección: Como es posible que el personaje de León todo el tiempo nos dijo que el pretendia hacer una especie de Enciclopedia de la población de los Altos de Jalisco y al final nos presenta un pobre trabajo incompleto donde nos muestra que la unica investigación seria que hizo fué sobre los Gonzalez de la Unión de San Antonio y que solamente estudio a las familias que tuvieron lazos familiares con estos Gonzalez, y que por ejemplo deja fuera a mas de la mitad de los Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza y por eso tuvo muchas reclamaciones y esto es refiriendome a una sola famila, habria que estudiar a las demas. Lo anterior lo digo porque basta ver la larga lista de agradecimientos que da en todas sus obras de investigadores, que quien sabe si les pidio permiso, en lo que a mi respecta nunca me pidio permiso ni me consulto y esa es la razón de mi molestia y te aclaro al final mi pleito no es con el Dr. Carlos Barba Gomez, ya que en ultima instancia el fué engañado y utilizado cuando le vendieron esta información, con este comentario termino este tema.
En cuanto a Alonso Hernandez de la Barba, quien casa en Puebla de los Angeles por 1540, recordemos que Puebla fue fundada en 1532 y que en el indice geobiografico de cuarenta mil pobladores Españoles de America en el Siglo XVI, por el Dr. Peter Boyd Bowman en la pag. 55 del tomo II, De Villa Garcia, Badajoz, España, aparece con el numero 1966, la siguiente información: Muñoz Mn.(Mariana) v.c. su esp. Al.Fz (v) e hh Bart.Mz, Ben Mz, y Fr Mz (nn) a Mx 25,v fund Puebla 32, vda.(c. otros hh chiquitos), Puebla 34 (Epist. NEesp, II, 137-140; Ic,No. 739,899,967) y se agrega el No. 1965, que esta arriba de este, porque tambien es hijo. de estos tres hijos chiquitos, Lucia, debió tener alrededor de 10 años y casar con Alonso Hernandez de la Barba por 1540 de cerca de 18 años, porque los hijos que te menciono en el primer comentario son bautizados en Puebla en la decada de 1540 1550, estos hijos casan en el periodo de tiempo de 1575 a 1590, es el caso Juan Muñoz de la Barba.
Nuestro genearca Francisco Muñoz de la Barba calculo que debió nacer entra 1590 y 1598, lo anterior de acuerdo a la cofradia de Xalostotitlan de 1628 y a la defunción de Francisco Muñoz de la Barba en 1667, este en 1628 ya es padre de varios hijos e hijas, Juan Muñoz de la Barba tiene un hijo Francisco nacido en 1604, de acuerdo a los datos anteriores no es posible sea nuestro genearca. de todo lo anterior constan las mas de 60 actas que fotocopio Guillermo de Tovar y de Teresa, por eso afirmo lo que digo, de todo tengo copias y tengo las fechas precisas no las consigno en este comunicado por ser breve, aqui termino con esta información informandote que si necesitas un testigo de lo anterior, Mari Lu Soto de Mongtana lo fue, inclusive un novel investigador de Capilla de Guadalupe llamado Moises Orozco Barba en sus comunicados con ella, Mari Lu lo refiere conmigo,comunicado del cual tengo copia certificada, sin otro particular y esperando tener siguiendo contacto contigo te envió un cordial saludo
A T E N T A M E N T E
José de Jesús Barba Ornelas
Estimado Jose de Jesus,
Yo tengo muchas preguntas y comentarios despues de leer tus cartas pero ahora no mas tengo tiempo de dar gracias y una pregunta.
Te mando muchas gracias por mencionar a mi tio abuelo "Chano" y I'm Tia "Chencha". Tambien tengo muchos buenos recuerdos de estos tios.
Yo desciendo de "Juana Gertrudis de Villaseñor y Franco de Paredes" y "Joseph Thoribio Muñoz de la Barba"
Juana "Ana" Gertrudis de Villaseñor y Franco de Paredes fue bautizada el 6/Aug/1724
Joseph Thoribio Muñoz de la Barba fue bautizado el 28/Apr/1718 en San Juan de los Lagos. El murio el 22//Nov/1779
Thoribio y Juana Ana Gertrudis se casaron el 9/Oct/1743
Yo tengo la las ramas de los Padres de Thoribio y los Padres de la made de Juana Gertrudis, Gertrudis Franco de Paredes. El padre de Juana "Ana" Gertrudis es Christobal Villaseñor. No tengo fechas para Christobal y no se quien son sus padres. Mi gran pregunta de ahora es: Quien son los padres y abuelos de Christobal Villaseñor
Otro vez te mando muchisismas gracias,
Ricardo
Lorenzo Balencia
mentioned in the record of Maria Antta. Balencia Gonzales
Name Lorenzo Balencia
Gender Male
Wife Juana Gonzales
Daughter Maria Antta. Balencia Gonzales
Name Maria Antta. Balencia Gonzales
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Sep 1737
Christening Place OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Lorenzo Balencia
Mother's Name Juana Gonzales
CITING THIS RECORD
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB9P-HBG : 12 December 2014), Lorenzo Balencia in entry for Maria Antta. Balencia Gonzales, 08 Sep 1737; citing OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 280,856.
Rick,
Two good news for you:
1) Date of marriage (Feb. 09/1762) is an indexing mistake. Correct date is Feb. 09/1763. You can find the record in image 330 of 495, Marriages 1736-1771 (Page 270; record 399).
2) It does include parents names.
Thank you Ruben for helping me out.
Rick A. Ricci
Thanks to Ruben I now have More information but now I have a problem reading Maria Cortes's parents. I also don't have anymore on these lines than what I am posting here.
I descend from Jose Domingo Estrada and Maria Rita Valencia through their son Jose Rafael Estrada y Valencia.
Jose Domingo Estrada es "Hijo legitimo de Joseph Alexandro Estrada y Maria Cortes"
Maria Rita Valencia es "hija legitima de Lorenzo Valencia y Juana Petra Gonzalez"
Joseph Alexandro Estrada is son of "Diego de Estrada and Ma. Antonia Gomez del Espejo".
I can't read the names of Maria Cortes's parents. Part of the mother's name is "Josepha". I am guessing that it reads "Hndo" "Cortes" and "Josepha" "?"
"Hndo" is short for Hernando so his name is Hernando Cortes. I can't read Josepha's surname.
Diego de Estrada casó en 20/Oct/1692 en Tepatitlán con Maria Antonia Gómez de Espejo.
CITING THIS RECORD image 30 of 495
"Mexico Marriages, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCFS-VD5 : 15 July 2015), Joseph Alexandro De Estrada and Maria Cortes, 14 Jul 1738; citing Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 218,517.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KMSD-TW?i=29&wc=3J8D-4WG%3…
Name Joseph Alexandro De Estrada son of Diego de Estrada and Ma. Antonia Gomez del Espejo
Spouse's Name Maria Cortes mother Josepha
Event Date 14 Jul 1738
Event Place Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico
Thanks again Ruben,
R.A.Ricci
it looks like josepha de Contreras
The marriage record of Anttonia Velasco de Espexo
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K79G-5W
has her mother's maiden father is Gomez. I did not see names for Diego Gomez but there was a hint that Diego Gomez is might be same as Diego Gomez de Portugal born 1649
Dear Simona,
The marriage record reads Mencia Velasco de Espexo but when I checked my records I found that the Espexo belongs to Diego's line. I am going to back and research this as this document clearly has " Mencia Velasco de Espexo".
Maria Antonia Velasco de Espexo (AKA Maria Antonia Gomez de Espejo) is the daughter of Diego Gomez Espejo and Mencia Ruiz de Velasco.
Diego Gomez Gamino (aka Diego Gomez Espejo) and Mencia Ruiz de Velasco (Mencia is the daughter of Pedro Ruiz de Velasco (II)(Ruiz de Haro.Velasco) and Ana Nuñez).
Diego Gomez Espejo (AKA Diego Gomez Gamino) is the son of Domingo Hernandez de Gamino and Juana Gomez del Espejo
Domingo Hernandez de Gamino is the son of Juan Hernandez Gamino and Ana Velasquez
Juana Gomez del Espejo is the daughter of Miguel Dominguez del Espejo and Isabel Gomez Maldonado
Isabel Gomez Maldonado is the daughter of Gaspar Maldonado and Juana Gomez
Pedro Ruiz de Haro Velasco (II) (aka Pedro Ruiz de Velasco) is the son of Pedro Ruiz de Velasco
Thanks Simona for all you help.
Rick A. Ricci
Response to :
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Antonia Gomez de Espexo
Submitted by sarod77 on Tue, 2016-07-19 17:25.
The marriage record of Anttonia Velasco de Espexo
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K79G-5W
has her mother's maiden father is Gomez. I did not see names for Diego Gomez but there was a hint that Diego Gomez is might be same as Diego Gomez de Portugal born 1649
After reviewing the marriage record, I feel that I made a mistake in believing that it read "Hndo" "Cortes". After studying the writing style of the author, I have changed my opinion and now believe that the author is writing " Anto" meaning Antonio Cortes and not Hernando Cortes.
Josefa's surname does seem to possibly be "Contreras".
This may be a record naming them baptizing a child of theirs:
Antto. Cortes
Gender Male
Wife Josepha Contreras
Daughter Margarita Cortes Contreras
Name Margarita Cortes Contreras
Gender Female
Christening Date 13 Aug 1721
Christening Place OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Antto. Cortes
Mother's Name Josepha Contreras
CITING THIS RECORD
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK7F-PH6 : 12 December 2014), Antto. Cortes in entry for Margarita Cortes Contreras, 13 Aug 1721; citing OCOTLAN,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 280,854.
This may be their marriage record:
Attach to Family Tree
Antonio Cortes
mentioned in the record of Antonio Cortes and Josepha De Samora
Name Antonio Cortes
Spouse's Name Josepha De Samora
Event Date 01 Nov 1716
Event Place , Ocotlan, Jalisco, Mexico
CITING THIS RECORD
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZNF-QM2 : 16 July 2015), Antonio Cortes and Josepha De Samora, 01 Nov 1716; citing , Ocotlan, Jalisco, Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 280,854.
R.A. Ricci
////////////////////////////////////////////////////Previous post that I am responding to:
Estrada and Cortes ancestors
Submitted by R.A.Ricci on Tue, 2016-07-19 16:03.
Thanks to Ruben I now have More information but now I have a problem reading Maria Cortes's parents. I also don't have anymore on these lines than what I am posting here.
I descend from Jose Domingo Estrada and Maria Rita Valencia through their son Jose Rafael Estrada y Valencia.
Jose Domingo Estrada es "Hijo legitimo de Joseph Alexandro Estrada y Maria Cortes"
Maria Rita Valencia es "hija legitima de Lorenzo Valencia y Juana Petra Gonzalez"
Joseph Alexandro Estrada is son of "Diego de Estrada and Ma. Antonia Gomez del Espejo".
I can't read the names of Maria Cortes's parents. Part of the mother's name is "Josepha". I am guessing that it reads "Hndo" "Cortes" and "Josepha" "?"
"Hndo" is short for Hernando so his name is Hernando Cortes. I can't read Josepha's surname.
Diego de Estrada casó en 20/Oct/1692 en Tepatitlán con Maria Antonia Gómez de Espejo.
CITING THIS RECORD image 30 of 495
"Mexico Marriages, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCFS-VD5 : 15 July 2015), Joseph Alexandro De Estrada and Maria Cortes, 14 Jul 1738; citing Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 218,517.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KMSD-TW?i=29&wc=3J8D-4WG%3…
Name Joseph Alexandro De Estrada son of Diego de Estrada and Ma. Antonia Gomez del Espejo
Spouse's Name Maria Cortes mother Josepha
Event Date 14 Jul 1738
Event Place Tepatitlan De Morelos,Jalisco,Mexico
Thanks again Ruben,
R.A.Ricci
Hi Rick,
Coincidentally, I was looking at Diego de Estrada and Antonia Velasco de Espejo’s marriage certificate today.
Also, I do agree with you that the father’s name for Maria Cortes is Antonio instead of Hernando.
Maybe you might want to look into the marriage certificate of Sebastian de Azeves and Margarita de Espejo (17/July/1709). This marriage certificate mentions Antonio Cortes and Margarita de Espejo as parents of Margarita de Espejo. Not sure if this is the same Antonio Cortes who later marries Josepha Contreras?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K795-5V?i=126&wc=3JDW-JWL%…
We seem to be looking into the same film numbers so I will keep you posted if I find something that might be of interest.
Good luck,
Minerva
I descend from Jose Domingo Estrada and Maria Rita Valencia through their son Jose Rafael Estrada y Valencia.
Jose Domingo Estrada es "hijo legitimo de Joseph Alexandro Estrada y Maria Cortes"
Maria Rita Valencia es "hija legitima de Lorenzo Valencia y Juana Gonzalez"
Joseph Alexandro Estrada is son of "Diego de Estrada and Ma. Antonia Gomez del Espejo".
Maria Cortes is the daughter of "Anto Cortes" and Josepha Contreras
"Anto" is short for Antonio so his name is Antonio Cortes de Arteaga y Velasco Gomez de Espejo and he is married to Josepha Contreras.
Antonio Cortez de Arteaga y Velasco Gomez de Espejo is the son of Diego Antonio Cortez de Arteaga and Margarita Gomez de Espejo
Margarita is the daughter of man surnamed Velasco (first name unknown) and Anna Gomez de Espejo
Antonio Cortez's wife Josepha Contreras is also known as Josepha Zamora (de la Mora)
Josepha Contreras is the daughter of Pedro Perez de Contreras and Juana Flores Estrada De Zamora (de la Mora). This Juana used many different surnames.
Pedro Perez de Contreras is the son of Nicolas Perez de Contreras and Maria Lomelin y Benavides
Maria Lomelin is the daughter of Carlos Lomelin ( Carlo Lomellini) and Maria Benavides
Juana Flores de Zamora de la Mora Mendoza is the daughter of Nicolas Flores de Estrada and Maria de Zamora ( aka Maria de la Mora Mendoza y Zamora)
Nicolas Flores de Estrada is the son of Juan Gomez Flores and Isabel Estrada
Maria Zamora y Mendoza (aka Maria Solis) is the daughter of Fernando de la Mora Mendoza and Maria Zamora
Fernando de la Mora is the son of Juan de la Mora Mendoza and Francisca Ochoa Garibay
Francisca Ochoa Garibay is the daughter of Diego Ochoa Garibay and Juana Nuñez de Sotomayor
I have already previously posted the ancestors for Diego Ochoa Garibay and Juana Nuñez de Sotomayor.
Juan Gomez Flores is possibly the son of Juan (Joan) Miguel Flores and Magdalena Maria.
I have not been able to figure out Magdalena Maria's surname. The padrinos are Francisco Gomez and Madalena (Magdalena) Agustina
Here is Juan Gomez Flores's baptismal record:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5RG-C?i=6&wc=3J6F-7M3%3A1…
His record is on the top left page where it states he was baptized on the fourth of May, 1611
R.A.Ricci
my research, searching for my half sibling ancestors at Totatiche Jalisco provided me
Arturo,
I've never seen indigena blanca before on records but I have seen the term mulata blanca before and I guess that means that a child looks light but definitely has two mulato parents, so it probably means that by looking at the parents they'd be Indios but the daughter looks much less India than her parents.
Danny C. Alonso
Thank you Alonzo, I guess it could also mean that one parent was blanca and the other Indio.
My half sibling's father was light skinned and his hair was castania.
I think probly she was a mestiza, and mestiza was a common term that every priest and scribe would have used daily, so i think there was a reason they didn't use it. my guess is the reason they wrote indigena blanca was because both parents looked indigenous and not mixed and that's why he was writing it that way because the daughter came out looking much lighter than her parents that were dark. the genes are strange that way sometime. Both my parents have dark hair and eyes but only one of my parents is Mexican and I came out with light hair (reddish blond) an blue eyes and my light hair and blue eyes comes from my Mexican side because my dad's parents both have light hair and eyes and my moms Scottish parents both have dark hair and eyes.
Danny C. Alonso
Hola:
Mestiza no es lo mismo que mulata, específicamente la primera es mezcla de indígena-blanco y la segunda de negra-blanco, frecuentemente el padre era blanco ya que era el patrón o el capataz en muchos casos, en otros simplemente un hombre que se casaba o relacionaba con una mujer indígena o negra. Los casos en que una mujer blanca se casaba con un indígena o un negro también se presentaron pero con menor frecuencia, los indígenas ricos a veces buscaban enlazarse con mujeres blancas.
En el caso de indígena blanca se refiere a que la niña nació con tez blanca pero dentro de una familia con costumbres o lengua indígena.
Antiguamente se distinguía la forma de vida de las personas por su vestimenta, posiblemente los padres de esta niña vistieran también con ropas de campesinos.
Saludos
Marcelina
Question regarding my 4th Great Grandmother Manuela Bobadilla' Parents. I've only been able to find her Defuncion Record from 6-19-1828 from Atolinga.
Nicolas Gerardo Bobadilla y Carlos and his niece Rita Contreras y Bobadilla are the parents of Maria Manuela Bobadilla y Contreras that is married to Valentin Delgado
Rick A. Ricci
Dear Ruben,
Rosalinda Ruiz has this same couple in her family tree so she may be able to answer your question. Valentin Delgado and Maria Manuela Bobadilla are the parents of Ramon Delgado that is married to Maria del Carmen Ureña.
Here is the information that you need to research this issue:
Name Nicolas Gerardo Bobadilla
Spouse's Name Rita Saldana
Event Date 28 Apr 1749
Event Place Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,Zacatecas,Mexico
Father's Name Pablo Anttonio Bobadilla
Mother's Name Juana Getrudis Carlos
Spouse's Father's Name Francisco Saldana
Spouse's Mother's Name Maria Peres
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZXT-BSM : 16 July 2015), Nicolas Gerardo Bobadilla and Rita Saldana, 28 Apr 1749; citing Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,Zacatecas,Mexico,
reference ; FHL microfilm 443,968. Image 482 out of 595.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BJZP-K?mode=g&i=481&wc=3PS…
Name Pablo Anto. De Bobadilla
Spouse's Name Juana Carlos
Event Date 16 Feb 1722
Event Place San Luis,Colotlan,Jalisco,Mexico
Father's Name Anto. De Bobadilla
Mother's Name Maria De Abila
Spouse's Father's Name Salvador Carlos
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JC6V-973 : 15 July 2015), Pablo Anto. De Bobadilla and Juana Carlos, 16 Feb 1722; citing San Luis,Colotlan,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 443,781.
Name Pablo Antonio De Bovadilla
Spouse's Name Rita Feliciana Zaragosa Macias
Event Date 28 Aug 1758
Event Place Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,Zacatecas,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZXY-3Q5 : 16 July 2015), Pablo Antonio De Bovadilla and Rita Feliciana Zaragosa Macias, 28 Aug 1758; citing Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,Zacatecas,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 443,969
Name Juan Anttonio Contreras
Spouse's Name Ana Maria De Bobadilla
Event Date 27 Apr 1747
Event Place Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,Zacatecas,Mexico
Mother's Name Juana Vazquez
Spouse's Father's Name Pablo De Bobadilla
Spouse's Mother's Name Juana Getrudiz Carlos
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZXT-8KS : 16 July 2015), Juana Getrudiz Carlos in entry for Juan Anttonio Contreras and Ana Maria De Bobadilla, 27 Apr 1747; citing Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,Zacatecas,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 443,968.
Here is a Rita Contreras Bobadilla. :
Name Rita Dominga Contreras Bovadilla
Gender Female
Christening Date 27 May 1757
Christening Place TLALTENANGO DE SANCHEZ ROMAN,ZACATECAS,MEXICO
Father's Name Juan Antonio Contreras
Mother's Name Maria Bovadilla
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLZ3-SQC : 12 December 2014), Juan Antonio Contreras in entry for Rita Dominga Contreras Bovadilla, 27 May 1757; citing TLALTENANGO DE SANCHEZ ROMAN,ZACATECAS,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 443,804.
Did Nicolas Gerardo Bobadilla get together with his niece Rita Contreras Bobadilla and have Maria Manuela Bobadilla y Contreras?
Rick A. Ricci
Can anyone tell me where I can find records of indigenous family members in Mexico.
The Catholic Church has had a very important role in recording data of individuals throughout Mexico's history after the arrival of Europeans. Most people, including natives, were recorded on parish records. Some older parish books tended to segregate people and sometimes there were "libros de indios" (for indigenous people) and "libros de castas" (for everyone else). You may need some luck to research your indigenous ancestors because often, the surnames of the children or parents were not listed, and that makes it even more difficult.
I encountered this issue when trying to find a marriage record for one of my ancestors. I kept searching for the groom's last name, and found nothing. Eventually, I decided to look for the bride and I was able to find the record. She was listed as "espanola" and it listed her last name as well as her parents. The groom, however, was listed as "indio" and there was no mention of his last name or the last name of his parents.
Steve in NC
I'm going to comment so I can keep up with this conversation. I'm looking for the same. I have only one line of the four grandparents I'm researching that is traceable beyond two generations. They are listed as "indigena" so I'm stumped, too!
Allison,
What are there names, maybe somebody has already researched them.
Danny C. Alonso
On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 6:40 PM wrote:
> I'm going to comment so I can keep up with this conversation. I'm looking
> for
> the same. I have only one line of the four grandparents I'm researching
> that
> is traceable beyond two generations. They are listed as "indigena" so I'm
> stumped, too!
>
the only place I have seen the band or tribe actually named was in the records for Sonora but they don't list grandparents in any records, marriage or baptism. I was checking records in Altar, Sonora
Linda Castanon-Long
Olivia Serrano, b 1923 in Rancho de la Mora and registered in Villa Guerrero listed as "indigena." Her parents also listed that way.
Father, Gumersindo Serrano (his paternal line runs through Coculitan and Tlaltenango de Sánchez Román all the way back to 1690, but I've not transcribed the church records yet.) At the time of his marriage he lived in Rancho Corral Blanco. I can't find anything on this rancho anywhere.
The mother was Magdalena Rios, of Rancho de la Mora and her family goes back a couple of generations to "Cuisquito" near Totatiche in Jalisco.
Do any of these locations ring a bell. I can't find anything anywhere so far in three or four days of looking to identify these "ranchos."
Thanks!
I didn't see the rancho you listed but here is a great resource http://biblio2.colmex.mx/bibdig/dicc_cubas/base3.htm but keep it in mind that it is VERY SLOW.
joseph
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Research [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On
> Behalf Of allison@allisonpeacock.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 12:32 AM
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] indigenous records in Mexico (Jalisco)
>
> Olivia Serrano, b 1923 in Rancho de la Mora and registered in Villa
> Guerrero listed as "indigena." Her parents also listed that way.
> Father, Gumersindo Serrano (his paternal line runs through Coculitan
> and Tlaltenango de Sánchez Román all the way back to 1690, but I've not
> transcribed the church records
> yet.) At the time of his marriage he lived in Rancho Corral Blanco. I
> can't find anything on this rancho anywhere. The mother was Magdalena
> Rios, of Rancho de la Mora and her family goes back a couple of
> generations to "Cuisquito" near Totatiche in Jalisco. Do any of these
> locations ring a bell.
> I can't find anything anywhere so far in three or four days of looking
> to identify these "ranchos." Thanks!
>
This is GREAT Joseph. Thanks. I did find a few of my smaller neighborhoods listed. And I appreciate you mentioning that it was slow. I really thought it didn't work at all! You have to click on the name and then go make a cup of coffee waiting on it to load. It's precious when it does finally load the page, though. Good info!
Am I correct in assuming that most indigenous people so assimilated and were Christianized and didn't do anything to call attention to their status? So not a tribal roll as we have the U.S.?
Slightly off topic for the indigenous question. And I thought maybe identifying the ranchos locations might help lend some discovery to that quest. The best I'm seeing now is mentioned that building Totatiche required a large army of indigenous workers and guards.
Onward...!
Hello,
In reference to indigenous lines, its been my experience that once you've identified through the records that your ancestor was designated as "Indio" at some point it gets hard to trace them. In my case, I was only able to find 1-2 more generations back and then they became untraceable. Its possible that their records could be in another city, having migrated to where you originally found them. Depending on time frame, you can look to cities where people move to or away from, usually for work. In the case of Nueva Galicia, some moved to Zacatecas for mining work. When the mines became less profitable, many moved to Jalisco for work. A portion of my ancestors went from Los Altos to Zacatecas 1700 & 1800's and then back to Jalisco in the late 19th century.
Also its also possible that your indigenous roots may be an amalgamation of several ancestors over time so therefore, finding that one Indio may be hard.
Finally, when I found an ancestor that was an Indio or Mestizo, the record never indicated what tribe they were from.
I am not really sure why records for Indios do not exist early on or in the same quantity as Espanols but perhaps someone in the group may know more.
Suerte,
Maven
I'm beginning to think you're right, Pau. It was that the mother and grandparents listed as "indigena" that threw us off. The more I research the more I see that aside from the migration that you describe perfectly about 200 years ago (and that only an hour move) they resided in the same area for more than 400 years. This make the amalgam theory more plausible. Unless there was some specific intermarriage in an indigenous community that was Christianized long ago that held up.
I guess the visit to the area is the only thing that will solve our mystery.
Thanks!
Allison
DNA testing may help some, you should check the missions records.
On Mar 16, 2017 10:44 AM, wrote:
> Hello, In reference to indigenous lines, its been my experience that once
> you've identified through the records that your ancestor was designated as
> "Indio" at some point it gets hard to trace them. In my case, I was only
> able
> to find 1-2 more generations back and then they became untraceable. Its
> possible that their records could be in another city, having migrated to
> where you originally found them. Depending on time frame, you can look to
> cities where people move to or away from, usually for work. In the case of
> Nueva Galicia, some moved to Zacatecas for mining work. When the mines
> became
> less profitable, many moved to Jalisco for work. A portion of my ancestors
> went from Los Altos to Zacatecas 1700 & 1800's and then back to Jalisco in
> the late 19th century. Also its also possible that your indigenous roots
> may
> be an amalgamation of several ancestors over time so therefore, finding
> that
> one Indio may be hard. Finally, when I found an ancestor that was an Indio
> or
> Mestizo, the record never indicated what tribe they were from. I am not
> really sure why records for Indios do not exist early on or in the same
> quantity as Espanols but perhaps someone in the group may know more.
> Suerte,
> Maven
>
Maybe they refused to be baptized and change their indigenous name, so no record of them prior to being baptized in the faith.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
________________________________
From: Research on behalf of JOSE L. Zambrano
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2017 10:57 AM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indigenous Lines
DNA testing may help some, you should check the missions records.
On Mar 16, 2017 10:44 AM, wrote:
> Hello, In reference to indigenous lines, its been my experience that once
> you've identified through the records that your ancestor was designated as
> "Indio" at some point it gets hard to trace them. In my case, I was only
> able
> to find 1-2 more generations back and then they became untraceable. Its
> possible that their records could be in another city, having migrated to
> where you originally found them. Depending on time frame, you can look to
> cities where people move to or away from, usually for work. In the case of
> Nueva Galicia, some moved to Zacatecas for mining work. When the mines
> became
> less profitable, many moved to Jalisco for work. A portion of my ancestors
> went from Los Altos to Zacatecas 1700 & 1800's and then back to Jalisco in
> the late 19th century. Also its also possible that your indigenous roots
> may
> be an amalgamation of several ancestors over time so therefore, finding
> that
> one Indio may be hard. Finally, when I found an ancestor that was an Indio
> or
> Mestizo, the record never indicated what tribe they were from. I am not
> really sure why records for Indios do not exist early on or in the same
> quantity as Espanols but perhaps someone in the group may know more.
> Suerte,
> Maven
>
it's rare for records to specify tribal/ethnic identity(in regards to indigenous peoples) affiliations so you probably won't be able to pinpoint a tribe from paper trail alone
This is not really an even or announcement, but I was just wondering if the admins knew of a way to code a search function in this site.
Rafa,
This might help you.
I use Google to search Nuestros Ranchos for me.
In the Google search field I type in my keywords or questions and then I add the following so that Google only searches the Nuestros Ranchos website.
site:nuestrosranchos.org
Example: lomeli lines site:nuestrosranchos.org
The search results should all be from Nuestros Ranchos and they should all include lomeli and lines in them.
It's not a perfect system and it may take some practice, but it should save you time.
I hope this helps.
G Alvarez
Would anyone be able to take a look at the record of Jose (at the bottom left of the page) and tell me what are the names of his grandparents?
My best guess Rafa:
... hl. de Jose Losano y Gumercinda Leon Abuelos paternos Jesus (Losano) y Lucia Torres maternos Santos (Leon) y Nepomucena Garcia ...
Hope it helps.
Does anyone in this group have Haplogroup N.?
On the Gary Felix site there are only 4 people with this N.
Hola Linda:
Hay varias posibilidades respecto del haplogrupo N en México:
1. Los vikingos invadieron cuatro veces la península ibérica. Puedes leer en la wikipedia un resumen llamado "Los vikingos en la península ibérica" pudieron dejar descendencia.
2. El Rey Carlos I de España y V de Alemania llevó alemanes a España como mineros y como maestros artilleros, pudieron pasar nórdicos con este grupo.
3. Esos mineros vinieron a Indias con "La Armada de los Alemanes" de la casa Fuquer, primero a Colombia y luego a Nueva España.
4. El apellido Gutierrez proviene del nombre Walter o Watari, godo, según la página celtiberia.net.
Me ha tocado investigar el apellido Ledesma, del que tengo la hipótesis proviene de una tribu eslava asentada en Cracovia.
Estos Ledesma en Querétaro se desprende de la rama de Zacatecas, Jalisco y Aguascalientes.
Saludos
Marcelina
Saludos
I AM RESEARCHING JUAN MARTIN TORRES, WIFE BEING XASINTA DE SANTOS.FOUND THAT SOME OF HIS KIDS FROM SAN ANTONIO DE LOS VILLALOVOS(MARIA ANGEL 1783) BUT LOOKING TO SEE IF JUAN MARTIN CAME FROM THERE MA
I just found another child born around 1765 (marriage records states he is 28 yo)
Claudio
Since the children were it seems all born in Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco, his parents were probably married in the same location abt 1763-65 (last child might be 1785)only Encarnacion's records dont start until 1789 for IM and marriages 1778.
I found that all of the following have a San Antonio where Claudio was born
Bolanos, San Juan de los Lagos, Teocaltiche, La Barca, Atotonilco el Alto and Zapotlan. perhaps one of the membership familiar with this may provide further insight of where the records of Encarnacion were before this time.
Juan Martin De Torres
1750–Deceased • 9ZQ5-NFB
Ana Jacinta De Los Santos
1753–Deceased • 9ZQ5-NYN
Encarnacion de Diaz, prior to becoming a municipality was part of two other
Municipios, San Juan de Los Lagos and Teocaltiche Jalisco, depending on the
proximity of each of these municipios. Encarnacion did not become a
municipality until 1823.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:45 AM, wrote:
> I just found another child born around 1765 (marriage records states he is
> 28
> yo) Claudio Since the children were it seems all born in Encarnacion de
> Diaz,
> Jalisco, his parents were probably married in the same location abt 1763-65
> (last child might be 1785)only Encarnacion's records dont start until 1789
> for IM and marriages 1778. I found that all of the following have a San
> Antonio where Claudio was born Bolanos, San Juan de los Lagos, Teocaltiche,
> La Barca, Atotonilco el Alto and Zapotlan. perhaps one of the membership
> familiar with this may provide further insight of where the records of
> Encarnacion were before this time. Juan Martin De Torres 1750–Deceased •
> 9ZQ5-NFB Ana Jacinta De Los Santos 1753–Deceased • 9ZQ5-NYN
>
Thanks for that info on Encarnacion, Alicia. Tony's great-grandparents immigrated from there, so it is good to know its history.
Emilie
________________________________
From: Research on behalf of Alicia Carrillo
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 12:17 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thorres
Encarnacion de Diaz, prior to becoming a municipality was part of two other
Municipios, San Juan de Los Lagos and Teocaltiche Jalisco, depending on the
proximity of each of these municipios. Encarnacion did not become a
municipality until 1823.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:45 AM, wrote:
> I just found another child born around 1765 (marriage records states he is
> 28
> yo) Claudio Since the children were it seems all born in Encarnacion de
> Diaz,
> Jalisco, his parents were probably married in the same location abt 1763-65
> (last child might be 1785)only Encarnacion's records dont start until 1789
> for IM and marriages 1778. I found that all of the following have a San
> Antonio where Claudio was born Bolanos, San Juan de los Lagos, Teocaltiche,
> La Barca, Atotonilco el Alto and Zapotlan. perhaps one of the membership
> familiar with this may provide further insight of where the records of
> Encarnacion were before this time. Juan Martin De Torres 1750–Deceased •
> 9ZQ5-NFB Ana Jacinta De Los Santos 1753–Deceased • 9ZQ5-NYN
>
My grand parents, José María Martinez=Regina Peña, were born and emigrated via El Paso, TX, to the U. S. in the early 1900's. My grandfather was a "traquero" for the Atchinson, Topeka, & Kansas RR, beginning in Kansas, and ending in California, working now with the Southern Pacific RR, where he retired after 30-years. Quite a journey.
Paul Gomez
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 17, 2017, at 2:08 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
> Thanks for that info on Encarnacion, Alicia. Tony's great-grandparents immigrated from there, so it is good to know its history.
>
>
> Emilie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Research on behalf of Alicia Carrillo
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 12:17 PM
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thorres
>
> Encarnacion de Diaz, prior to becoming a municipality was part of two other
> Municipios, San Juan de Los Lagos and Teocaltiche Jalisco, depending on the
> proximity of each of these municipios. Encarnacion did not become a
> municipality until 1823.
>
> Alicia,
> San Jose, Ca
>
>> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:45 AM, wrote:
>>
>> I just found another child born around 1765 (marriage records states he is
>> 28
>> yo) Claudio Since the children were it seems all born in Encarnacion de
>> Diaz,
>> Jalisco, his parents were probably married in the same location abt 1763-65
>> (last child might be 1785)only Encarnacion's records dont start until 1789
>> for IM and marriages 1778. I found that all of the following have a San
>> Antonio where Claudio was born Bolanos, San Juan de los Lagos, Teocaltiche,
>> La Barca, Atotonilco el Alto and Zapotlan. perhaps one of the membership
>> familiar with this may provide further insight of where the records of
>> Encarnacion were before this time. Juan Martin De Torres 1750–Deceased •
>> 9ZQ5-NFB Ana Jacinta De Los Santos 1753–Deceased • 9ZQ5-NYN
>>
I was reading a death record from Mexico City and it said the person (a female) "fallecio de fijo". She was 30 years old. What is "fijo"?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
English:
Here is the information on Antonio Orozco and Maria Matheana Martinez
Jose Antonio Yrineo Orosco
mentioned in the record of Jose Antonio Yrineo Orosco and Maria Mattheana Marttines
Name Jose Antonio Yrineo Orosco mestizo,Hijo de Jose Yrineo Orozco y Luisa Bernarda de Pardo
Spouse's Name Maria Mattheana Marttines, española, hija de Juan Maria Martinez y Maria Gregoria Gonzalez
Event Date 21 May 1798
Event Place Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCX5-QQD : 15 July 2015), Jose Antonio Yrineo Orosco and Maria Mattheana Marttines, 21 May 1798; citing Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ;
FHL microfilm 224,986. Image 150 put of 414; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KS9N-JD?mode=g&i=149&wc=3J…
Name Maria Antonia Petra Orosco Martines
Gender Female
Christening Date 31 Jan 1816
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Jose Antonio Orosco
Mother's Name Maria Matiana Martines
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGDY-SF9 : 12 December 2014), Jose Antonio Orosco in entry for Maria Antonia Petra Orosco Martines, 31 Jan 1816; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,941
Name Jose Antonio Orosco
Sex Male
Wife Maria Matiana
Son Jose Domingo Guadalupe Orosco
Other information in the record of Jose Domingo Guadalupe Orosco
from Mexico Baptisms
Name Jose Domingo Guadalupe Orosco
Gender Male
Christening Date 12 May 1806
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Jose Antonio Orosco
Mother's Name Maria Matiana
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBJF-MY4 : 12 December 2014), Jose Antonio Orosco in entry for Jose Domingo Guadalupe Orosco, 12 May 1806; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,940.
Baptism of Maria Matheana Martinez Gonzalez's sister:
Maria Ynes Martinez Gonzales
Mexico Baptisms
Name Maria Ynes Martinez Gonzales
Gender Female
Christening Date 09 May 1811
Christening Place SAN COSME,VILLA DE COS,ZACATECAS,MEXICO
Father's Name Juan Jose Martinez
Mother's Name Maria Gregoria Gonzales
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1R7-3JS : 2 January 2015), Maria Ynes Martinez Gonzales, 09 May 1811; citing SAN COSME,VILLA DE COS,ZACATECAS,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 1,095,155.
Good luck in your research,
Rick A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
this is great work.
Danny C. Alonso
Here are some records that may help your research
:
Maria De La Merced Rodrigs. Ramos
Mexico Baptisms
Name Maria De La Merced Rodrigs. Ramos
Gender Female
Christening Date 25 Sep 1830
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Jose Ma. Rodrigs.
Mother's Name Guade. Ramos
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV9W-K2Y : 12 December 2014), Maria De La Merced Rodrigs. Ramos, 25 Sep 1830; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,945
Jose Ma. Rodrigs.
mentioned in the record of Jose Ma. Rodrigs. and Ma. Guade. Ramos
Name Jose Ma. Rodrigs.
Spouse's Name Ma. Guade. Ramos
Event Date 19 Dec 1829
Event Place Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZV7-T4Q : 16 July 2015), Jose Ma. Rodrigs. and Ma. Guade. Ramos, 19 Dec 1829; citing Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,988.
Maria Anta. De Orosco
mentioned in the record of Jph. Maria Ramos and Maria Anta. De Orosco
Name Jph. Maria Ramos
Spouse's Name Maria Anta. De Orosco
Event Date 13 Nov 1768
Event Place Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZV7-RPJ : 16 July 2015), Jph. Maria Ramos and Maria Anta. De Orosco, 13 Nov 1768; citing Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,984.
Name Brigida Rodriguez Ramos
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Oct 1833
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Jose Maria Rodriguez
Mother's Name Guadalupe Ramos
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR24-ZYL : 12 December 2014), Jose Maria Rodriguez in entry for Brigida Rodriguez Ramos, 08 Oct 1833; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,945.
Good luck,
Rick A. Ricci
BMF,
Ese registro es diferente a el registro que tengo para la boda el 24 de Agosto de 1885?
Lin: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL3G-B?i=685&cc=1874591&ca…
Y si es diferente el registro, me puedes dar el link para que pueda buscar en el Registro Civil?
Gracias,
Rafa
Rafa
thats too many different names for it not to be done on purpose. whenever i see that its usually to cover up an ilegitimate baby. i know it says on the marriage hijo legitimo of Maria Merced Ramos but i think the record is trying to cover up something. my guess is that maria Merced Ramos is the origin of the Ramos line. orozco may be another name she uses maybe her mom, but i think inocencio is probly ilegitimate and if his parents weren't married, it's going to be hard to go back any further. i'll look to see if i can find any civil records that will help.
Danny C. Alonso
Danny,
Thanks, I appreciate the help. That is what one of the theories I have considered. I tried to look up what was going on in Jalisco in 1862 and I found the French Conflict was going on, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was any looting and raping going on by both sides. It could also have been just a normal illegitimate child.
His death record which I didn't include has Inocencio listed as "natural" so I figured that he was illegitimate.
In any case, my main interest is the Ramos name. So if you can find Maria Merced Ramos and her Ramos parents that would be great! I tried doing this too but no luck.
Best,
Rafa
yeah i just looked at the death record it says he was 52 and that he died of a liver abscess and was hijo natural de Merced Ramos, so that does mean he's illegitimate. the guy reporting his death is francisco Ramos age 51 so that may be a brother of inocencio. you still may be able to trace Merced Ramos if you can find a birth record for inocencio and maybe francisco, it should at least give Merced Ramos's parents. Do you know if he had any brother or sisters
Danny C. Alonso
Sorry I do not know if he had any brothers or sisters.
I am curious to know who Francisco Ramos is in relation to Inocencio. I did a quick search for Franciscos born in Sayula between 1862 and 1870 and found three, none of which were to a Maria Merced (some in 1868 to Maria Ramos but that would make them too old).
In any case if Maria Merced was indeed a Ramos (for her to be Francisco's mother and thus Francisco be a brother as opposed to a cousin) that would mean Francisco would also be illegitimate and within 1 year of Inocencio which although plausible, I would think with the culture then she would not be likely to do that...but then again who knows?
My next search will be in the 1930 Mexico records that has Ruperto Ramos in it. I will see if he is living with anyone else (aside from children) or if he made the trip to Guadalajara alone.
-----------------------------------------------
Edit:
He made the trip with a Francisco Ramos who was 30 at the time (Ruperto was 38). Ruperto's brother Francisco was supposedly born in 1896, so it cannot be him. I suppose it's a cousin. Again, a search for a Francisco Ramos born in Sayula during 1899-1901 gives me nothing except for a female born in 1899.
Link to 1930 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6889-TJG?mode=g&i=90&cc=13…
Rafa,
I have seen several instances where someone had multiple children all listed as hijos naturales. So, it happens quite a lot.
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Rafa,
I agree with Danny, I've seen numerous cases where a couple were living together for years and had several children without ever having been married. I've also seen cases where a couple married eventually after having lived together and having several illegitimate children. And, I've even seen cases where a couple weren't living together but carried on a long term affair and had 5 children together before ever getting married.
Chris
Hi Rafa,
I took a look at your Maria Merced Ramos. She does appear to be a Ramos and the origin of the Ramos line like Danny stated. She also appears to be an Orozco and appears to have had several children with an unknown man. Like was said before, I've seen this many times, but, I'm never quite sure what the reason is. I found a record for these three children, Ausencia Ramos, Esteban Ramos, and, Espiridion Ramos who are siblings and with near certainty siblings to your Inocencio Ramos. As you can see all three are the natural born (illegitimate) children of Maria Merced Ramos and an unknown man. There are probably several more children that can be found with a little more searching. So, Maria Merced Ramos was having children at least for a period of ten years beginning around 1853. The last record she is listed as Mercedes Ramos, so her baptismal name is probably Maria de las Mercedes if you can find the record. The grandparents are listed as Jose Ramos and Clara Martinez for Ausencia and Jose Ramos and Clara Orozco for Esteban and Espiridion, so that is where the Orozco comes in:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GPQ5-Y
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K3SH-DQ
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KHN3-8
Jose Ramos and Clara Orozco married in Sayula in 1824:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KCSZ-V
Jose Ramos is the son of Joseph Atenogenes Ramos and Maria Patricia, both who would have been born around 1760 or earlier.
Clara Orozco is the daughter of Antonio Orozco and Matiana Martinez, both who look like they were born around 1785 or earlier.
Good luck in your search.
Chris
Thank you so much!
This might be the breakthrough I have been looking for.
I want to go ahead right away and say this is her. But I will double and triple verify the info before adding it in.
Thank you so much guys. If I can be helpful in your searches just let me know, but I have a feeling I can't be of much help yet given my relatively amateur experience.
Rafa
Great work Chris. Here are some records Rafa that may help continuing research on the Ramos line:
Josseph Atenogenes Ramos
mentioned in the record of Josseph Atenogenes Ramos and Juana Maria Anguiano
Name Josseph Atenogenes Ramos
Spouse's Name Juana Maria Anguiano
Event Date 02 Mar 1772
Event Place Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCXP-BQT : 15 July 2015), Josseph Atenogenes Ramos and Juana Maria Anguiano, 02 Mar 1772; citing Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,984.
Other information in the record of Josefa Atenogenes Augustina Ramos
from Mexico Baptisms
Name Josefa Atenogenes Augustina Ramos
Gender Female
Christening Date 29 May 1788
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Josef Atenogenes Ramos
Mother's Name Maria Patricia
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV93-53V : 12 December 2014), Josef Atenogenes Ramos in entry for Josefa Atenogenes Augustina Ramos, 29 May 1788; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,938.
Other information in the record of Jose Agustin Ramos
from Mexico Baptisms
Name Jose Agustin Ramos
Gender Male
Christening Date 30 Aug 1854
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Mother's Name Maria De Las Mercedes Ramos
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV9C-54P : 12 December 2014), Maria De Las Mercedes Ramos in entry for Jose Agustin Ramos, 30 Aug 1854; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,949.
I suspect that the unknown father is named Francisco but not confirmed.
Good Luck,
Rick A. Ricci
Rafa
i agree with Chris, I would say this is 100% your Merced Ramos and that Jose Ramos and Clara orosco are 100% the grandparents of Inocencio Ramos. i also think it's possible that the name of one of the grandparents on Inocencio's children maybe right, which would mean probly that Merced Ramos was related to her unknown boyfriend which might be why they werent married.
Danny C. Alonso
Thanks guys,
I was able to find the marriage registration for Jose Atenogenes Ramos and Maria Patricia dated Jun. 20, 1774.
Here he is simply referred to as Jose Ramos, Indian... the rest of the stuff I can't decipher...and then "h.l." legitimate son of...(senor?)......Ramos and Nicolasa Juana; married to Maria Patricia, Indian...again some stuff I don't know what it means..."h.l." of ......Pablo, deceased, and Maria Bartola.
Link:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KHLM-6?mode=g&i=39&cc=1874…
Thanks again. Couldn't have done it without you all.
Best,
Rafa
Rafa,
i looked at it and it says on the side Jose Ramos Yndio de San Mateo y Maria Patricia de Advento? maybe? it's kind of hard to read that abbreviation and i cant make all of it out and the same word is in the body of the record but its where they live, probly a ranch name, it might actually say Rancho de San Mateo and Rancho de Advento or whatever that word is, but the first word on both looks like it starts with an N. the middle part starts "en veinte de junio de mil setecientos setenta y cuatro años: se casaron y velaron "infacie ecclesiae" Jose Ramos Yndio de ___ de San Mateo hijo legitimo de Sebastian Ramos defunto y Nicolasa Juana y Maria Patricia Yndia de ____ de Advento? hija legitima de Sebastian Pablo defunto y de Maria Bartola... Fueron testigos Domingo Luis y Sebastian Damian y Padrinos Pedro Manuel y Maria Micaela y lo firme como parroco.
Danny C. Alonso
Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
Does anyone have any information on Miguel Gomez and Maria Martel from
Aguascalientes, born probly around 1680.
Hi Danny,
You didn't provide much information on this family. What is Maria Getrudis Gomez's husbands name. Who are their children? Do you have any other information on them? Some of the Martel family members also used Gallegos as a surname.
Rick A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
I don't really have any information on Miguel Gómez and María Martel other than from the IM of the marriage on April 15, 1725 of their daughter Gertrudis Gómez and Juan de Santiago Macías. Here is the IM: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYM7-NTY
On the actual marriage record, the parents aren't named, but their daughter Gertrudis Gómez is listed as María Martel like her mother.
Danny C. Alonso
Danny,
Here is the death record of Juan de Santiago's first wife, Javiera Lopez.
Name Javiera Lopes
Event Type Death
Event Place Asunción de María, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Burial Date 01 Apr 1724
Spouse's Name Juan de Santiago Masias
Citing this Record
México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1620-1962, database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N87P-TY7 : 16 February 2017), Javiera Lopes, ; citing Death, Asunción de María, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico, parroquias Católicas, Aguascalientes (Catholic church parishes, Aguascalientes
Is Juan Santiago Macias the son of Nicolas Macias Valadez and Maria Antonia de la Fuente? If he is then I think his name is Juan Xavier de Santiago Macias Valadez.
Rick A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
I think Juan de Santiago Macías is listed as an hijo de padres no conocidos.
Danny C. Alonso
Danny,
Juan de Santiago Macías Is listed as español in his first wife's burial record. Juan de Santiago was a widower when he married his Maria Getrudis Gomez Martel. Many times they don't list the parents of a widower when he remarries, they just list his first wife and when she passed away. That was how I knew where to look for her burial record. I checked their marriage record to see if his parents are listed there but they are not. The first wife is named Francisca Xaviera Lopez, not just Xaviera. They were also married twice with the second making the marriage more official. The first marriage may have been in Jalisco two years earlier away from her family so they married again in front of her family.
Is Juan de Santiago Macias your ancestor?
Rick A. Ricci
Yes, Juan de Santiago Macías is my ancestor, but I'm pretty sure someone told me he's an hijo de padres no conocidos that's why I'm mostly trying to find out about his wife's parents Miguel Gómez and María Martel.
Danny C. Alonso
Need some advice, I had my DNA through AncestryDNA, since then I have accumulated a serious list of Extremely HIGH, Very HIGH and HIGH, and GOOD and Moderate.
My children's paternal line is mostly from Aguascalientes, especially Asientos. They are represented by the FTDNA account for Tobey Bernal. His DNA has also been uploaded to GedMatch, with the ID T228105, for comparison. I have a tree at Ancestry.com, but it's a bit old. I have to upload another. I have made some discoveries in the past couple of days, and it looks like my children descend from Lope Ruiz de Esparza b. 1569 (12th great-grandfather of Tobey). I would appreciate if anyone with ancestors from Aguascalientes could compare DNA and get back to me. I manage Tobey's accounts. I am happy to share my tree.
Thank you!
Joan King (jking2000 on Ancestry)
Joan,
Lope Ruiz de Esparza is the brother of my 10th great grandfather Francisco Ruiz de Esparza, both being sons of Lope Ruiz, born abt 1540. My GEDmatch no. is T771275. However, 10-12 generations back will not produce an estimated relationship on GEDmatch.
Regards,
Roy Rodriguez
No, I have not. I'll check it out later, but exactly what does it do, is there a
DNA test applicable to gedmatch?
GEDmatch.com accepts results from a few other testing sites, 23andMe, FamilyTreeDNA, etc.
Therefore, you'll find additional matches not necessarily found on AncestryDNA.
There are some useful tools provided that will allow you to different types of matches.
Best of all...it's free.
p.s. Yes, it is so anoying that people don't respond.
O.K., I guess you mean, that first I upload my AncestryDna to my harddrive, afterwards
upload the file(s) to GEDmatch? I am somewhat familiar with computer, not the brightest bulb in the field of IT, that is why, I asked. my generation is the one above the Baby boomers, late comers, to the world of digital/computer era.
yeah you first download your ancestrydna results, then upload them to gedmatch
I too would like to learn how to load my DNA test results from both ancestry.com and 23andMe. Is it possible to get a step-by-step list?
Thank you!
Sent from my iPhone
Maria,
Which part are you needing help with on loading DNA test results to Gedmatch? The first thing to do is go to www.gedmatch.com and create and account then login. Once you are logged in to www.gedmatch.com there is a section on the right titled File Uploads. You can click on the 23andMe fast & easy to transfer your 23andme raw data. Once that is done then you can go back and click on Generic Upload FAST for instructions to download your Ancestry.com raw data file then upload it to www.gedmatch.com
Saludos,
Armando
Thank you Armando. I'm going to try it out.
Saludos,
Maria 3/10/17
I did it! 23andMe is down but I uploaded my ancestry DNA. I'll upload the other one too on Monday.
Thank you x 100
Maria
If anyone sees jolude on your DNA matches, that's me! Would you be willing to contact me so we can help each other grow our family trees?
Thank you! 3/10/17
Hello,
Hi Vanessa,
At WikiTree each person's profile includes "Sources", e.g.:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hurtado_de_Mendoza-10
You can find in "Sources" the record of his defunction and a Dispensa showing some blood relationships.
Checking the sources on each profile you can form an opinion about how trustworthy the family tree could be.
Profiles and sources are entered by volunteers as the result of their own resarch.
Ancestry DNA username for comparison is Vanessa Lopez.
There are two Coculiten