Dr.mt

Testamento 1676 Sombrerete, Zacatecas, Mexico of Pedro Dias De Llano

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There is this document reference number: CONTRATACION,5360,N.81

For Pars: http://www.archivesportaleurope.net/web/guest

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Can someone help deciper this one line? "En La Noa......." year 1606

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It is the year 1606 Pasajero de Indias documdent for "Joan De Angon" on the very top of first page there is a line which has the name of the ship he traveled on which says:

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Published by MADERA_32 – Fri, 2015-10-23 18:57 | Permalink

Comment

I asked for help from a historian of Zacatecas and he thinks it reads "La Noa Margarita" which would be the "Santa Margarita" which sank in 1622 along with the Atocha.

I was trying to read the whole document again to see if it makes any more references as to the name of the Noa or galeon on other pages and when I to got to image 20, I ran across an interesting wording where a historian told me it reads "de Moros Judios"

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2nqwtv5.jpg

On Image 31 it says something about "Testigos" A historian of Zacatecas told me that:

"Moros judios. Cuando venian de España tenian que llevar testigos para confirmar que que eran cristianos viejos, etc. Por lo regular llevaban 3 testigos"

Maria Marcela de los Dolores Delgado

Published by sarod77 – Published on
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Maria was to marry Jose Serapia Escalante vuido de Juana Juliana Monsebais but she passed before the six month penance was given for primer grado.

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Published by familias_bajio – Mon, 2015-10-19 14:48 | Permalink

Comment

The marriage dispensation is listed on Claudia's "Guadalajara Dispensas" website (http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com/). And the link for the dispensa is at:

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18424-14807-0?cc=1874591 : accessed 19 October 2015), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > Matrimonios 1799, parte 1 > image 60 of 845; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).

On image 62 the groom testified "...esta ligado con su pretensa con el vinculo del parentesco por afinidad de copula ilicita en primer grado por haberse mezclado con Maria Gertrudis Delgado, ya difunta, hermana de su dicha pretensa..." He then goes on to state that he also had relations with Marcela Delgado. So the impediment of primer grado was for the illicit relationship between Serapio and Maria Gertrudis, Maria Marcela's sister. Maria Marcela's penance was probably for her illicit relationship with Serapio.

Best regards,
Austin

Read full comment ➜

Comment

Thank you to everyone for your help. I went over the image again and it had that the information of the primer grado was stated on 10th of September of the present year 1799 in the IM. I looked for it but was not successful as the IM's are not in order actually they are in reverse order and then mixed up, but 10th of September was not in it. So thanks again to everyone!!!

Published by familias_bajio – Sun, 2015-10-18 20:43 | Permalink

Comment

The relationship may have been with a brother of the groom or a brother of the groom's previous wife.

Comment

You are correct,, primer grado in this situation could be the brother of the groom or brother of the previous wife. but I think this is a only a small possibility since no one is named. In similar cases that I have seen, all parties that are involved are named. Sometimes they even state how long the affair is supposed to have been.

Published by victorianonavarro (not verified) – Sat, 2015-10-17 14:48 | Permalink

Comment

It does't say with whom, but since it is a primer grado, my guess is that they were having an illicit relationship with each other and then decided to get married.
Regards,
Victoriano Navarro

Comment

Primer grado would mean that the future spouses were not having relations with each other as there were not any dispensations that I know of for primer grado. Primer grado means siblings or father / daughter. For primer grado we are talking incest. Segundo grado are first cousins. If the person she was having sexual intercourse with is not named, then I would assume that it was a brother and not her father. Further research may clarify which family member was involved with her. Next, I would investigate if her brothers needed any dispensations when they married. Since it was 6 months penance, they assume that it was consensual and not rape?

I have seen dispensations for "primer con segundo grado" where an uncle is married to his niece. This was allowed with a dispensation.
R A Ricci

Beatriz de Mayorga daughter of Alvaro Marin de Peñaloza

Published by dcalonso – Published on
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Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

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Comment

Danny,
Here is how I read the highlighted passage...

Itten. declaro para el descargo de mi conciencia ser deudora de quinientos noventa y cuatro pesos a mi hijo José Martin de Sotomayor que suplió y pago por mí y por dicho difunto mi esposo en este modo cuatro cientos y veinticinco pesos que pago al alférez real don Juan Fernández de Palos, vecino de esta villa

Hasta pronto
Austin Perez

Comment

I started my search for mayorgas with no success back a few years ago. In truth I had nothing but the husband's name. A great uncle Francisco Lopez Contreras (1855) son of Dorotheo Lopez Escareno con Guadalupe Contreras Delgado married a mayorga and somewhere the name Ursua appears don't know if he married twice. I don't know if they are any relation to your mayorgas a few hundred years forward. I should mention that about this time the Alonsos began to appear in my maternal line with a few interesting stories.

Published by dcalonso – Tue, 2015-10-20 16:00 | Permalink

Comment

Simona,

I'd be interersted in your Alonsos, I have hundreds of Alonsos I might be
able to help connect your Alonsos and my Alonsos.

Danny C. Alonso

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 10:37 AM, wrote:

> I started my search for mayorgas with no success back a few years ago. In
> truth I had nothing but the husband's name. A great uncle Francisco Lopez
> Contreras (1855) son of Dorotheo Lopez Escareno con Guadalupe Contreras
> Delgado married a mayorga and somewhere the name Ursua appears don't know
> if
> he married twice. I don't know if they are any relation to your mayorgas a
> few hundred years forward. I should mention that about this time the
> Alonsos
> began to appear in my maternal line with a few interesting stories.
>

Cuquio baptisms

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I'm looking for the baptism of an illegitimate child that was probably
baptized in Cuquio around 1785 -1790.

Comments

Published by jcaguayo – Sun, 2015-10-18 13:15 | Permalink

Comment

Arturo,

There are a few options for "bautisomos de hijos naturales" in Cuquio:

https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysea…

Check out this link and see if the two options you have are in the time
ranges you are investigating.

Saludos,
Juan Aguayo

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Arturo Gonzalez wrote:

> I'm looking for the baptism of an illegitimate child that was probably
> baptized in Cuquio around 1785 -1790. His name was Atanacio, son of
> Felipa, and the last name might have not been given, or if given, it
> was probably Peres, Rivera, Velasquez, or Gonzalez. Atanacio might
> have been listed as Indio or mestizo.
>
>
> It seems that the only available films are are for legitimate children
> (e.g., "Bautismos 1772-1788" & "Bautismos 1789-1796").
>
> Does anyone know illegitimate births were included in other Cuquio
> church books, or perhaps went to another town for such a baptism?
>
> Arturo G

Comment

There is no surname for Felipa? Have you found other records for Atanacio?
In Bautismos, 1772-1788, Image# 602 of 700, year
1785, not your Atanacio, but there
is a baptism record for a child listed with padre no conocido. You may possibly find your Atanacio in these records.
Gloria

Comment

Gloria,
I know that Atanacio's father was Gervacio Gonzalez, probably "español" and from the Cuquio parish jurisdiction (Buenavista or Ixtlahuacan del Rio).

Atanacio's first marriage was in ~1808 and he gives his name as "Ribera" son of Felipa Rivera (the word "legitimate" is crossed out). Subsequently he lists his last name as "Gonzalez" in his children's baptisms and in his second marriage. Gervacio Gonzalez is his father. Atanacio's birth year is ~1791.

His mother Felipa married in ~1791 to Agustin Sanchez and she gives her last name as "Peres" in the Cuqio marriage (which is her mother's last name, but doesn't list a father). She also gives a second first name, "Timotea" and originally is from near Aguascalientes. Later baptisms list her father as Antonio Velasquez. She mostly uses Rivera, however. She's always identified as "India."

I have not found Atanacio's father, Gervacio Gonzalez, in the Cuquio records. I have found the marriage record for someone with this name but this person's year of birth is approximately 1785, which doesn't align with Atanacio's birth year. This Gervacio's second marriage was in the 1850s! Unfortunately, the informacion matrimonial book for his first marriage is missing.

I was hoping to find Atanacio's baptism record but have since concluded that there are no records for illegitimate children in Cuquio.

I'm also hoping to find a baptism record for Gervacio Gonzalez ca. 1770 to narrow down the possible fathers for Atanacio. But again I haven't found one. Perhaps he was also illegitimate ?

Arturo

On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:51 PM, morningglories@cox.net wrote:

There is no surname for Felipa? Have you found other records for Atanacio?
Gloria

Comment

I had time to go through some of the Cuquio baptism records and I came across quite a few records with the entry "padre no conocido" meaning father unknown. This means that both legitimate and illegitimate children are in the same register.

Gloria

Chavez from Ameca, Calvillo, possibly Jalpa?

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I am trying to go further on my Chavez family. I hope any of these names sound familiar to someone out there.

Chavez from Ameca, Calvillo, possibly Jalpa?

Published by Steve G. Apodaca – Published on
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I am trying to go further on my Chavez family. I hope any of these names sound familiar to someone out there.

Research Questions - General Questions about Specific Situations

Published by ajmedrano – Published on
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Good Afternoon Community Members,

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Published by sarod77 – Sat, 2015-10-17 09:43 | Permalink

Comment

Fantastic I love that area and Library. I know exactly where that is at. The Popol Vuh is housed there and I can usually find parking on the street.

Published by ajmedrano – Thu, 2015-10-15 11:40 | Permalink

Comment

Gloria/Manny/George,

Thank you for the help and guidance.

From the guidance on how to directly access films, it has already paid huge rewards. I was able to track down my maternal grandmother's baptism record, with all of its rich information, in just an hour or so. I spent most of the past year messing with indexes and thinking it was simply not there...it was, I just needed to know how to access it. There have been other 'gems' discovered.....

Also, I have a new appreciation for both the church baptism record and the Civil registry for births. Before this week, I was essentially ignoring the civil registries, but now it has become a very good compliment to the baptism record...(in some cases, they are easier to read...helpful for a mexican american, such as myself, who has limited spanish language skills.

And for the information on the LDS Family Research Centers, thank you for helping me understand how they can supplement my 'online' research...There is one located not far from me here in Texas, so when the need arises, I know where it is.

Thank you again....I am sure I will be back again with more questions......

Comment

Thanks 4 asking the question and thanks for the response as I did not know how it worked. I tried contacting several ctrs here in Chicago but no one answers the phone to ask questions.

Comment

Hi Simona,

If you live in Chicago, then I would highly recommend visiting the Newberry Library. Becoming a researcher is both free and easy. They function as a FHC, but have all the resources of a large research library. They also have a relatively impressive collection of books and manuscripts of Mexican/Spanish genealogy, including some rare books about Nueva Galicia. I spent many hours there in the last few years while living in Chicago.

If you have additional questions, let me know.

Hope this helps!

Sergio

Published by gpf13 – Tue, 2015-10-13 21:30 | Permalink

Comment

I am a volunteer at a Family History Center.

A FHC will have a number of computers, may have a film scanner/printer, and microfilm readers. The centers will also have a numbers of films that patrons have borrowed -- either short term or long term loan, and some on permanent loan. There will also be a library of genealogical resources. The resources at any FHC will vary; FHCs associated with LDS temples will generally many more resources than those with the wards or stakes.

The computers at the FHCs have access to what are referred to as "premium websites." These are generally subscription websites, such as the institutional version of Ancestry.com. These resources emphasize American and British resources. The are no Mexico or Spain specific resources among this group. Ancestry.com has some digitized sources that are not presently available at Family Search, such as all the US census images. Ancestry,com also has a good collection of Mexico to US border crossing records. By arrangement with the owners of these websites church members may access some of these from their home computers; members of the public must use them at the FHC.

Some of the resources on Family Search can only be accessed at a FHC; some can only be accessed when the user is signed in with a Family Search account (for members of the general public) or an LDS account (LDS church members). A few resources, generally LDS church specific, are accessible to church members only. My experience is there are no restrictions on the Mexican records; I do not know what portion of Mexican records have been digitized, but it is certainly a lot.

By getting the microfilm numbers from the Family Search catalog, you can create a list of what films have been extracted or indexed for the communities you are researching. The indexed records have links to the images, the extracted ones do not ( so you need to search the film or digitized images for these).

Microfilms that have not been digitized can be ordered from Salt Lake for a fee (fee depends on length of loan) for viewing at a FHC. These films cannot be removed from the FHC. For a fee, these films can be kept at the FHC on permanent loan.

The volunteers at the FHC are both church members and non-members. They can help with the resources at the FHC. They also have research experience, and like those of us here at NR, have varying levels of expertise. For example, in my case I have experience in US, British, Mexican, Austrian, Czech, German, and French records. I have also used the Spanish archives. Foreign language ability is also variable.

Although you can do a tremendous amount of Mexican research from home, there are a few resources at the FHC that augment this.

George Fulton

Published by jrefugioghermosillo – Tue, 2015-10-13 13:53 | Permalink

Comment

Hello Arthur,

I have an ancestor who was an hijo natural of a Mestiza woman, who had 6 hijos naturales over a period of time; at least 2 of the children were legitimized by their Spanish father, and I imagine the other children were fathered by the same man (he married a Spanish woman, 8 months before the birth of her last child...). My ancestors probably didn't marry, because of a difference in castes/class.

Another couple I descend from - Andres Diaz de Leon and Dionicia Duron, from Sierra de Pinos - had 6 children before they married (on their IM, one of the reasons they give for marrying, is to legitimize their children). Their children were probably baptized as "hijos de padres no conocidos." I've seen cases of children born of unknown parents, and after the parents wedded, the entry is annotated in the margin, naming the parents: right image bottom, entry for Maria Magdalena:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11678-30016-9?cc=1502404&w…

I haven't visited any of the LDS Family Centers, so I'm ignorant of their resources. As far as their FamilySearch website, not all of the records have been indexed, so sometimes, one needs to scan through every image on a roll. The advantage of doing this, is locating your ancestors as padrinos or testigos.

Regarding using their FamilySearch filtered searches: if the image doesn't appear with the indexed file, then you have to locate the roll of film, and scan through the images to locate the partida.

There are different ways to access the rolls, one way is to go to https://familysearch.org/search

1. Select your country under "Research By Location."
2. A window will open naming the states; select your state.
3. The page will open with a list of Collections: choose "(name of state) Catholic Church Records."
4. Another search page will open, but rather than searching, click on the link that says "Browse through # images" (beneath "VIEW IMAGES IN THIS COLLECTION")
5. Select your town/parish, then scroll through the rolls, which are labeled by type (baptism, marriage, etc) and by year range.
6. The number of the film roll will appear in the first or second image: match it to the number given in the index, then scroll through the images, to locate your partida.

I hope that helps!

Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Published by LasFlores – Tue, 2015-10-13 13:27 | Permalink

Comment

I take it that the baptismal records were not separated into Baustismos de hijos legitimos and Bautismos de hijos naturales:the record itself did not state that the father is unknown or the child the "natural" child of ... If there are corresponding Civil Registration records then you could check those. I have two civil registration records where the children were registered by the great grandmother with no mention of the birth mother. The names of the children, the great grandmother, place and time all correspond to oral family history.

Familia de Leonardo Fregoso

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Hola Amigos,
Busco a PETRONA DE LOS SANTOS FREGOSO. vivio entre 1690 y 1750 en Guachinango, Amatlan, Ameca y/o Ahualulco. Se caso con un SEBASTIAN JARAMILLO.

Comments

Published by LasFlores – Fri, 2015-10-16 10:20 | Permalink

Comment

¿Podría ser esta su familia Jaramillo y Fregoso ?

Juana De Dios Jaramillo Fragoso
Mexico Baptisms
Name Juana De Dios Jaramillo Fragoso
Gender Female
Christening Date 18 Mar 1726
Christening Place AMECA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Sebastian Jaramillo
Mother's Name Maria Fragoso
Citing this Record

"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9YW-5NL : accessed 16 October 2015), Juana De Dios Jaramillo Fragoso, 18 Mar 1726; citing AMECA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 233,065

Gloria

Comment

Hola Gloria,
Si, ella es hija de Sebastian y Petrona.
Busco sus origenes, hasta ahora he encontrado relación con la familia FRAGOSO y RAMIREZ CARRANZA que pudieron haber vivido en zonas mineras (Ahuacatlan, Jala, Ixtlan del Rio, San Sebastian, Hostotipaquillo, etc.) parece que a esto se dedicaban.

Saludos,
Veronica Rodriguez

Published by verodamian – Thu, 2015-10-15 14:42 | Permalink

Comment

Estimados compañeros que han estudiado esta rama de Leonardo Fragoso...

Hay un Leonardo Fragoso en DF entre 1562 y 1572 casado con Juana Camargo que tuvo el 8 de Agosto de 1562 a un leonardo Fragoso. ¿Es posible que este Leonardo sea el que se caso con Ana Chavez y Bernardina Farfan? Este Leonardo era tirador de oro, dedicado a la impresion de libros y sabemos que nuestro Leonardo trabajaba en las minas. Nose si alguien tenga algun dato que confirme este hecho o tenga el matrimonio con Ana Chavez.
¿Saben donde bautizo a los hijos que tuvo con Bernardina? He buscado en Guachinango, Tecolotlan, Teocaltiche y Aguacatlan y no los encuentro.
Ubique solamente una vez a Leonardo y a Bernardina en 1626 apadrinando a un niño en San Sebastian del Oeste.

Busco especificamente la relacion que tuvieron los Fragoso con una familia de apellido JARAMILLO o RAMIREZ CARRANZA entre 1690 y 1705

Saludos y todo lo mejor!
Veronica Rodriguez

Alvarez de San Cristobal de La Barranca y Zapotlanejo, Jalisco

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Ayer revisando los archivos de Bodas de Zapopan, jalisco encontre la boda entre Joseph Antonio Alvarez Murguia(Zapotlan hoy Zapotlanejo) con Juana Maria de LLamas del Puesto de San Juanito cerca de Sa

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Published by juan francisco… – Sun, 2012-05-13 09:37 | Permalink

Comment

Juan Francisco Sanchez Alvarez

Segun registros de Zapotlan (ejo), Francisco Alvarez o Antonio Alvarez Casado con Juana del Rio tuvo como hijos a Joseph Alvarez , Antonio Alvarez (?-1773) y tal vez a Simon Alvarez (casi seguro ya que vivia en el mismo lugar) ellos habitaban un lugar que en ese tiempo llamaban Cañada de los Alvarez, aunque cuando Simon Alvarez muere en 1724 en su defuncion llaman como Cañada de los Lopez, y en algunos registros cercas de 1800´s llaman Cañada de los Ocampo, tal vez sea el mismo lugar.

Simon Alvarez muere soltero en 1724, nacimiento desconocido
Antonio se casa con Juana Lopez Cabrera nacimiento desconocido
Joseph Alvarez se casa com Maria Flores Perez (que muere en el Puesto de Chila en 1774).Joseph Alvarez tambien no se donde nacio.

Joseph Alvarez y Maria Flores tienen como hijo a Lorenzo Alvarez (1709) quien posteriormente se casa con Josepha Murguia y se van a vivir al Puesto de los Coyotes o Saucillo de los Coyotes donde tienen varios hijos.
Joseph Seberino Alvarez(1750), Joseph Manuel Alvarez(1743), Maria Josepha Norberta Alvarez(1752),Joseph Antonio Alvarez(1741) todos nacidos en ese rancho, Excepto Maria Josepha que fue bautizada en Guadalajara.

Joseph Seberino se casa en San Cristobal con Crecencia de Sotomayor y viven en el Rancho El Escalon teniendo una gran desendencia.

Si alguna Persona sabe de Antonio Alvarez y Juana del Rio favor de compartir su informacion.

Comment

Juan Francisco Sanchez Alvarez

Siguiedo con la investigacion encontre que La Cañada de los Alvarez se refiere a un lugar ubicado en Xuanacatlan que en aquel entonces eran registrados en el pueblo de Zapotlan, tengo la duda si es en Zapotlanejo o lo que hoy es Zapotlanejo??? ya que cuando Joseph Alvarez hijo de Antonio Alvarez y Juana de Cabrera (o Juana del Rio) se casa con Maria de Estrada (Maria Flores) en el sagrario de Guadalajara en 1699 lo ponen como originario de la Cañada en el pueblo de Xuanacatlan, pero tambien lo curioso es que sus hermanos fueron bautizados en Poncitlan que esta mas cerca de lo que hoy es Zapotlan del Rey.

Aqui lo interesante es como las mujeres sobre todo utilizan diferentes apellidos al casarse o al bautizar a sus hijos. Y como estos Alvarez registraban o se casaban en Guadalajara, Poncitlan o en Zapotlan.

Revisando partidas matrimoniales encuentro muchas similitudes con los Alvarez de Guadalajara ya que se casan con personas con apellidos como De Ocampo y sus testigos como Casillas son repetitivos por lo que al menos es muy extraño

Comment

Victor M Gomez

La cañada de los Alvarez en Zapotlan, hoy es Zapotlanejo, Juana del Rio fue esposa de Francisco Alvarez, y estos padres de Antonio Alvarez esposo de Juana Lopez de Cabrera, o Juana de Cabrera. Asi como de Joseph Alvarez muerto el 11 de abril de 1745, casado con Maria Flores.

Comment

Juan Francisco Sanchez Alvarez

Gracias Victor, he dejado un poco la investigacion de los Alvarez por estar investigando mi linea paterna, no pude avanzar mas alla de Francisco Alvarez y Juana del Rio, que debieron haber nacido alrededor de 1615. Si alguien tiene el posible origen de esta pareja para poder continuar con la investigacion estaria muy agradecido.

Comment

uniéndome a su conversación e instigación con su permiso por supuesto , el día de ayer encontré a mis Abuelos 6tos y creo que tendrán relacion con sus Ancestros ellos son Juan Antonio Perez Alencastro y Maria Efigenia Navarro Albares ella nació el 14 Aug 1729 en la Barranca de los Albares y Bautizada en Purísima Concepción, Zapotlanejo, Jalisco, Mexico sus Padres Nicolas Navarro Rosa De Albares espero sea de ayuda no estoy Familiarizado con estos Pueblos, ustedes si? Gracias Compañeros Atte Ignacio Anaya Gomez .PD ojala! que en esta ocasión alguien me responda. Ciao.

Comment

uniéndome a su conversación e instigación con su permiso por supuesto , el día de ayer encontré a mis Abuelos 6tos y creo que tendrán relacion con sus Ancestros ellos son Juan Antonio Perez Alencastro y Maria Efigenia Navarro Albares ella nació el 14 Aug 1729 en la Barranca de los Albares y Bautizada en Purísima Concepción, Zapotlanejo, Jalisco, Mexico sus Padres Nicolas Navarro Rosa De Albares espero sea de ayuda no estoy Familiarizado con estos Pueblos, ustedes si? Gracias Compañeros Atte Ignacio Anaya Gomez .PD ojala! que en esta ocasión alguien me responda. Ciao.

NAVARRO family 1910 Guadalajara, Jalisco

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QUERY - NAVARRO

Comments

Published by victorianonavarro (not verified) – Mon, 2015-10-12 11:03 | Permalink

Comment

Hi Cindy,
As you may know, here in Mexico we use two surnames: the first one is the paternal one and is passed to the next generation, the second one is the maternal one. One usually addresses people by their fist surname.
When people move to the US they have several options:
a) Keep their two surnames in the original order.
b) Invert their order and use the maternal one as a US middle name.
c) Drop one of the surnames, usually the maternal one.

Since Sarabia is a surname, you may look under "Navarro Sarabia" or "Sarabia Navarro".

I am also looking for a Navarro Sarabia family, but they lived over a century before your folks. However, sometimes families combine their surnames and used as a combined one for several generations (like González Hermosillo, García Dávila, etc.).

I joined this group several years ago looking for leads on my GGFather Victoriano Navarro, who according to one source was from Ocotlán, Jalisco (born around 1805). According to another source his father was Domingo Navarro and his paternal grandparents were José María NAVARRO & Fernanda SARAVIA. Eventually I found documents that confirm that indeed his father was named Domingo but is seems like Victoriano was born in northern Coahuila, not in Ocotlán (however through other lines I do have ancestors from Zacatecas). I still have not found any documents confirming that Domingo's parents were indeed José Ma. Navarro & Fernanda Saravia from Jalisco.

Patricia Burton, a NuestrosRanchos member, told me she found in FamilySearch some information regarding the family of Joseph Maria NABARRO & Fernanda SANABRIA, including their marriage in Ocotlán on 16 Jun 1766. She also found the names for two of the sons of Fernanda and Joseph Maria (also listed as Joseph Manuel or Joseph Miguel):

Joseph Bernardino Senicio N., born 10 Jun 1767 in Ocotlan

Jph. Antto Mathias NABARRO Zanabria, born 6 Mar 1771 in Ocotlan

So, you may also look under Sanabria. Besides that, DNA comparison might be another option, although so far it has not helped me much in breaking my Navarro brickwall.

Good luck with your search,
Victoriano Navarro

Comment

Hi Victoriano,

Yes, I am familiar with the name practice and although I was given a surname for Jose's mother (Padilla), I have wondered whether Sarabia was one of his grandmothers' maiden names.

I really appreciate your reply and the further information you've given here (especially the info on Sanabria). I will continue to search. These ancestors can't hide from me forever.

BTW, I have taken an autosomal DNA test (which hasn't let to any great leads on my mom's ancestry yet). However, I plan to have my mom's brother tested very soon with a y-DNA test (111 markers, if I can afford it). He's 78 so I don't want to miss the opportunity. He lives in Nevada, so planning to make a trip in the next month or two. He's expecting the test, but doesn't know yet that I also plan to assault him with questions as well.

Thanks again for your insights!

CindyF

Comment

Hi Cindy,
Well, I have taken autosomal and Y-67 DNA tests with FTDNA and the results are also posted on GedMatch and Y-Search respectively under the surname Navarro. I look forward to your uncle's results in order to see if we match or not.
Best regards,
Victoriano Navarro

Comment

Cindy that is great! Will you keep me posted about your visit with your
uncle? I would love to know if that will lead us to a connection.

Esther

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:57 PM, wrote:

> Hi Victoriano, Yes, I am familiar with the name practice and although I was
> given a surname for Jose's mother (Padilla), I have wondered whether
> Sarabia
> was one of his grandmothers' maiden names. I really appreciate your reply
> and
> the further information you've given here (especially the info on
> Sanabria).
> I will continue to search. These ancestors can't hide from me forever.
> BTW, I
> have taken an autosomal DNA test (which hasn't let to any great leads on my
> mom's ancestry yet). However, I plan to have my mom's brother tested very
> soon with a y-DNA test (111 markers, if I can afford it). He's 78 so I
> don't
> want to miss the opportunity. He lives in Nevada, so planning to make a
> trip
> in the next month or two. He's expecting the test, but doesn't know yet
> that
> I also plan to assault him with questions as well. Thanks again for your
> insights! CindyF
>

what's this document about?

Published by katy_brecht_quesada – Published on
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15246-1341-95?cc=1804458&wc=…

Comments

Published by jrefugioghermosillo – Mon, 2015-10-12 11:20 | Permalink

Comment

From what I can tell, it's a criminal proceeding against Antonio Secundo, Negro Esclavo de Pedro Guerra de Solar, for having kidnapped Maria Ysabel Carlos, taking her to Fresnillo and for raping her.

Manny Diez Hermosillo

Maria Tiscareno

Published by dcalonso – Published on
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Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

does anyone know what it means on Maria Tiscarenos funeral when they talk
about the avito of don Franco

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12142-73876-41

Comments

Published by victorianonavarro (not verified) – Mon, 2015-10-12 21:19 | Permalink

Comment

It says "con Avito de Sn. Franco." and in modern spelling it is "hábito de San Francisco". In those years many people in Monterrey and other towns were buried wearing a cloak like the one Franciscan friars wear, the religious habit of St. Francis of Assisi or hábito de Sn. Francisco.
Regards,
Victoriano Navarro

Published by iChristopher – Mon, 2015-10-12 21:24 | Permalink

Comment

Hi Danny,

It's says that Doña María de Tiscareño was buried in the Chapel of Our Lady of Sorrows with "The Habit of St. Francis (Avito de San Francisco). The Habit was worn by lay members of the Third Order of St. Francis. It was worn as a symbol of piety and rejection of material things. Although, I've only seen it requested by the wealthiest people of Nueva Galicia.

You can read more about it here in this book about Death and Dying:

https://books.google.com/books?id=a3T5YaMqrQwC&pg=PA56&dq=HAbit++St.+Fr…

Chris
 

Luis Lópes Suáres

Published by dgmiv – Published on
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Is anyone familiar with Luis Lópes Suáres? My family is descended various times from him and his wife Catarina de la Cruz (maybe Hernándes).

Comments

Published by LasFlores – Sun, 2015-10-11 14:06 | Permalink

Comment

There are Informacion Matrimonal records--the pre martial investigation records/ marriage petition records. Look for marriage petition record for Luis and Catarina, it should state if Luis was a widower and it will name his late wife. You can also look for death records before Feb 1673.
Here is a death record for a Catarina de la Crus. It may not belong in your family line but you should hold on to it until you can eliminate it.
Name Catharina de la Cruz
Event Type Death
Event Place Asunción de María, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Address Hacienda San Bartholome
Gender Female
Marital Status Widowed
Burial Date 09 Oct 1738
Spouse's Name Juan Luis
Citing this Record

The death record for Juan Luis is opposite Catharina's

"México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1620-1962", database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N87C-WX2 : accessed 11 October 2015), Catharina de la Cruz, .

I had a little extra time and started looking at the marriage petition records
1715-1718--no luck yet.
Gloria

Comment

I have indexed the Aguascalientes matrimonial investigations for this period. They are posted here at NR under files - reference materials - Aguacalientes matrimonial investigations.

Please note that the films were reposted after I did the indexes, so things don't do not align with how the films are presently posted online. However, the index will tell if the document exists, and will give the parents' names if they were in the original document. The MI's do not exist for all the early marriages.

There is more info in the documents than the indexes, so it is worth the effort if find it. If you need help with the index, please contact me through N R, and I help with the index.

George Fulton

Comment

Thank you, Gloria. The informacion Matrimonial records really frustrate me - I haven't had good luck with them. But I know they contain a lot of valuable information. I am thinking that Luis and Catarina probably married by 1713 at the latest, because their daughter Josefa got married in 1729. So even if she was 16 when she got married, she would have been born in 1713. Thanks again.

Does Anyone Know of a Military Registry (1675 - 1695 era?) of Nueva Galicia?

Published by MADERA_32 – Published on
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I am looking for Fernando De La Campa y Cos who supposedly was in Sombrerete, Zacatecas, Mexico in 1693. He was born in Burgos, Spain in 1676.

Comments

Published by ssales1984 – Sun, 2015-10-11 14:34 | Permalink

Comment

As far as I know there is no such list. I have not yet even come across lists of regions. The only thing I have found is isolated mentions in each town where so and so is "Capitan de Guerra" or "Alferez." I suppose it it possible some exist in the Archivo General de Indias or in the Archivo de Protocolos de Jalisco. The former is being digitalized, the latter not yet.

It would be a very useful find though!

Sergio

OROZCO (Orosco) family 1890s Tototlan, Jalisco

Published by CindyF – Published on
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QUERY - OROZCO

OROZCO is one of my "brick wall" lines. I've posted an overview of this individual in my folder here: http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/CindyF

Comments

Published by LasFlores – Fri, 2015-10-09 19:15 | Permalink

Comment

Cindy,
There is a Civil Registration Record for Dolores' birth. It includes both the paternal and maternal grandparents name. It appears that Rafael is from La Aurora and the witnesses from Santa Maria-? Here is the citation:

"México, Jalisco, Registro Civil, 1857-2000," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-21210-10309-65?cc=1918187 : accessed 10 October 2015), Tototlán > Nacimientos 1895 > image 34 of 216; Archivo del Registro Civil Estado de Jalisco (Jalisco Civil Registry State Archives).
Gloria

Comment

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-21210-10309-65?cc=1918187

The writing is defeating me. This is what I've come up with but pretty sure I've only got it partially correct.

Abuelos paternos: Manuel Orosco y Victoriana Acruz(?) (Any ideas on the apellido for Victoriana?)
Abuelos maternos: Geraro Vargas y Tomasiana Ruiz.
Testigos: Porfino Hernandez y Ariyal(?) Mendoza

Comment

Cindy,
Victoriana-I can't make out her surname.
Ceraro Vargas I think is Gerardo and
Tomasiana maybe Donaciana.
I would check the Civil Registration for marriage
records beginning with 1888 or whichever year you
believe the couples were married and work forward.
If no luck then work backwards from 1888.

Gloria

Comment

Cindy,

Andrea Orosco d/ Rafael Orosco & Manuela Vargas
November 1893
Grandparent:Manuel Orosco & Victoriana Aceves.

Citation

"México, Jalisco, Registro Civil, 1857-2000," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-21208-11596-2?cc=1918187 : accessed 10 October 2015), Tototlán > Nacimientos 1893 > image 166 of 183; Archivo del Registro Civil Estado de Jalisco (Jalisco Civil Registry State Archives).

Gloria

Published by gpf13 – Thu, 2015-10-08 20:28 | Permalink

Comment

Cindy

I took a look in the Family Search catalog, and there are a number of gaps in the microfilmed records of Tototlan. There is also a note about Ayo del Chico, so looking there may be helpful.

For a number of films the storage location is Granite Mountain Vault, which means the films are not physically in Salt Lake at the library. You should contact them to see if it is possible to request the films that are not on line before you go to Salt Lake, otherwise your short amount of time may not be as productive as you would like. I've not been in Salt Lake in years, in the past it could take a day or so to get films from remote storage.

Best of luck with your search.

George Fulton

Comment

Thanks, George. I especially appreciate the advice about requesting films in advance of my time at the SLC library!

Appreciate your reply,

CindyF

Real y Minas de San Joaquin? Fregoso? Hijar Bracamonte?

Published by Steve G. Apodaca – Published on
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I'm looking at the parish records of Guachinango, Jalisco. Some of the older entries and books belong to a place called Real y Minas de San Joaquin.

Comments

Published by mendezdetorres – Mon, 2015-06-08 23:54 | Permalink

Comment

Steve,

Domingo Fragoso and Beatriz de Híjar Bracamonte y Haro were married in the Sagrario Metropolitano of Guadalajara on 23 August 1705. Textually it declares the following: "Domingo Fregoso, español, vecino de la jurisdiction de Mascota, hijo legítimo de Juan Fregoso y Doña Angela Enríquez Beltrán con Doña Beatriz de Híjar, española, vecina de esta ciudad, hija legítima de Luis de Híjar y Doña María de Haro."

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-31325-96?cc=1874591&wc…

I have done extensive research on the Híjar Bracamonte family that extended principally in Nayarit, Jalisco, Michoacán, Guanajuato and Mexico City. You will enjoy these lines of Fragoso and Híjar-Bracamonte. Since you descend from them, that also means we are related numerous times. My grandmother is a second great granddaughter of Lic. Juan de Dios de Híjar, Magistrate of Guadalajara.

Through these lines you will connect with the families of Tecolotlán like Enríquez de Alencastre, Sánchez Cabezuelas, etc. On the Híjar Bracamonte line you will have several notable people like Lic. Orendáin who was the Notary in Guadalajara, the conquistadores Haro y Colio, also the Bishop of Guadalajara, the Counts of Miravalle, the conquistadores Bracamonte and Fernández de Híjar, etc. Many captains, regidores, alcaldes, soldiers, government officials, businessmen, etc These lines are a lot of fun, there is so much history because these families helped shaped western Mexico.

Now as for el "Real y Minas de San Joaquín." There is a book I have, really it belongs to my grandfather, that is called "Noticias varias de Nueva Galicia, Intendencia de Guadalajara" published by the Jalisco State Government in 1875 which describes several jurisdictions across the Kingdom of Nueva Galicia. Under the jurisdiction of Mascota, there existed a mine and settlement called San Joaquín (this is found on page 33) and it states the following: "Al sur veinte leguas, con dos europeos, 109 españoles, 3 indios, y 337 mulatos, ocupados en el laborío de minas; cuyas leyes cuando más ricas llegan a 5 onzas por cargas."

If you would like more information please email me.

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Comment

Daniel,

I'm so glad to find out that I share ancestors with one of the most successful members of this group. At this moment I've just scratched the surface on this family. I've been researching my ancestors from Atenguillo and Guachinango, and that's how I found my ancestors Fragoso and Hijar Bracamonte. While browsing this website, I found there's plenty of conversations about these families that I'm sure I'll enjoy researching them, and I'll have plenty of homework to keep me busy for a while!

You mention that, among other families, we descend from the counts of Miravalle. Have you been able to link your tree to emperor Moctezuma through this line?

I would certainly appreciate it if you share additional information or clues to do my own research. Can you provide your email address? The direct contact feature on Nuestros Ranchos does not seem to work for me, and messages that I sent to other members were never received. Mi email is estebanico82@yahoo.com

Saludos

Steve in NC

Comment

Estimados Daniel, Steve y resto del grupo

Este tema de los antepasados de Steve trae a colación el viejo y oscuro tema de los Haro, Bocanegra, Bracamonte, Híjar, Colio y Miravalles.

Creo que es un tema aún no clarificado ni medianamente (al menos para mí)

Al parecer Steve, tu antepasado Simón Thadeo Fregoso e Híjar era hijo de Domingo Fregoso y Enríquez Beltrán y su esposa Beatríz de Híjar Haro y Cueva, quienes casaron como lo dice Daniel en Agosto de 1705 en Guadalajára.
Puesto que aún no hé visto la partida de bautizo de Simón Thadeo, no puedo asegurar en un cien por ciento que los mencionados sean los padres de Simón y es necesario tener eso bien aclarado ya que si suponemos que Simón es hjo de ellos, Simón debió nacer por muy tarde alrededor del año 1725 o 1730 y entonces es extraño que él se casara en Febrero de 1765 cuando ya tenía entre 35 y 40 años , aunque pudieran ser sus segundas nupcias, lo cual explicaría ese asunto de la edad un poco avanzada.

De quedar comprobada la ascendencia de Simón Thadeo, entonces , lo que yo tengo en mis notas es que no le corresponde el linaje Bracamonte, sino más bien los apellidos Bocanegra y Colio, ya que a Beatríz de Híjar y Haro yo la tengo como hija de Luis de Híjar y de María de Haro y Cueva que casaron por 1660.
María de Haroy Cueva era hija de Diego de Haro Colio y Cueva que había casado cerca de 1618 con Antonia de Esquivel y Maldonado.

Diego de Haro Colio y Cueva era hijo de Hernando de Haro y Bocanegra que casó por 1570 con Teresa de Colio y de la Torre.

Y aquí el misterio se hace denso, ya que al parecer Hernando de Haro y Bocanegra era hijo de Pedro de Bobadilla y su esposa María de Saucedo que eran encomenderos de Tepechitlán y del Teúl.

Es para mí un misterio como fue que asignaron los apellidos a sus hijos ya que uno se llamó Juan García de Saucedo; otro fue Francisco de Bobadilla; otro fue Pedro de Haro y de la Cueva; otro fue Ana de Bobadilla y Saucedo; otro fue Juan Bautista Saucedo Haro; y el ya mencionado Hernando de Haro y Bocanegra!

Para aumentar el misterio, encontré que en algún texto mencionan que María de Saucedo era indígena! Así que para que ella y su marido Bobadilla fueran encomenderos , ella debería haber pertenecido a la nobleza indígena y por tal motivo heredera de tierras en esas regiones.

Con respecto a los mencionados Miravalles, creo que hasta la fecha no está completamente establecida su línea ya que el propio primer Conde de Miravalle se construyó una genealogía FALSA! lo cual ha dificultado aclarar su verdadera ascendencia.

Comment

Después de mandar mi texto anterior me percaté que no escribí nada sobre el marido de María de Haro Colio Cueva y Esquivel Maldonado; bueno , pues de ella tengo que efectivamente casó con un Luis de Híjar del cual no tengo los demás apellidos, pero buscando en mis notas encontré que por las fechas es probable que se trate en realidad de Luis de Orendáin Molina Híjar Bracamonte quien fue bautizado el 4 de julio de 1634, fecha que ajusta bien con la probable fecha de la boda de María de Haro realizada alrededor de 1660.

Así que de esa manera, los descendientes de María de Haro Colio y Cueva y Luis de Orendáin Molina Híjar Bracamonte podrían llevar sin problema solo los apellidos Híjar Haro y Bracamonte si así lo querían.

Respecto a los Condes de Miravalle ya se ha mencionado que su genealogía es confusa, en mis notas de hecho no tengo ni siquiera claros los nombres de los padres del primer conde:

En unos escritos he encontrado que Pedro de Ávalos Bracamonte el primer Conde de Miravalle era hijo de Pedro Ávalos Saavedra y de Leonor de Bracamonte; y en otros escritos lo hacen hijo de Juan de Ávalos y de Juana Bracamonte.

Al parecer los verdaderos padres del primer Conde fueron Juana de Bracamonte y Juan de Ávalos quienes lo bautizaron el 15 de Mayo de 1615.
Pedro no era el primogénito de Juana y Juan, ya que ellos habían bautizado a una hija llamada Juana de Ávalos Bracamonte el 24 de Enero de 1608 y los padrínos de bautizo de esta niña habían sido la tía bis-abuela de la niña, llamada Petronila Ruíz de Haro y su tercer marido llamado Fernando Andrés Costilla y Espinosa.

Es un hecho que el primer Conde era descendiente de Pedro Ruíz de Velasco Haro y Muñóz y de Leonor Arias Gómez ya que esta pareja fue la dueña de una importante Hacienda llamada Miravalle y poseedores de una inmensa fortuna gracias a una riquísima mina que descubrió Pedro Ruíz de Velasco, riquezas que sirvieron a su descendiente para obtener el título de Conde.

Pedro Ruíz de Velasco y Haro y Leonor Arias tuvieron y reconocieron sólo tres hijas : La ya mencionada Petronila, que casó tres veces; Micaela, que casó con Álvaro de Tovar; y Francisca Arias Coronado que casó con Álvaro de Bracamonte e Híjar.

Francisca y Álvaro fueron los padres de Alonso de Bracamonte, quien al parecer casó dos veces:

la primera por 1580 con Francisca González de Ávila , padres de Juana de Bracamonte, mamá del primer Conde de Miravalle;

y la segunda vez con Beatríz Fernández de Híjar y de Molina por 1590, de quien al parecer descendió Luis de Hijar Molina Bracamonte el bautizado en 1634

Comment

Muchas gracias por su contestacion y por toda la informacion dada. De hecho, en la informacion matrimonial de Simon Thadeo Fragoso se menciona a la madre como Beatriz de Yjar Bracamonte. Este es el enlace:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18571-36218-31?cc=1874591&wc…

Aparte, en la pagina 82 de este rollo, arriba a la izquierda, se menciona que Simon tenia 38 años en 1765. Ademas, no hay mencion de un matrimonio anterior.

Seguimos en contacto.

Steve

Comment

Hello,

I am also descend from this Hijar line. My link is Francisco Xavier de Hijar son of Luis de Hijar and Maria de Haro Cueva. I haven't been researching this family for that long, I just recently discovered my great great grandmother Maria Ysabel Nerio (Hijar) used her step fathers last name that being Nerio when she arrived to California. I would love to learn more on the surname. Any pertinent history information you may be able to share would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Amalia...

Comment

En especial a los Compañeros Steve G. Apodaca y el Brillante Compañero Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino , hope that I can help a little with my humble contribution the Chavez Fregoso,s descended from the same Family branch of our Patriarch Don Leonardo Fregoso . His First Wife whas Bernardina Farfan they were the parents of Domingo Fregoso my 8th great-grandfather and Geronima de la Cueva who is also my 8th great-grandmother then Leonardo Fregoso got married with Ana de Chávez one of his many children was Pedro Chávez Fragoso birth 1593 • Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico .

Antonio Madera 1573 Pasjero de Indias?

Published by MADERA_32 – Published on
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http://www.archivesportaleurope.net/web/guest

Refence No. is: INDIFERENTE,2057,N.91

Comments

Published by RJQ – Fri, 2015-04-03 10:14 | Permalink

Comment

For those having dificulties finding the pdf here it is. (let me know if it works, I am re sharing it)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cDWUXy4ZMmbU8wazlhQ0lIOXM/view?usp=s…

Madera, just a note, in the days of "Nueva Galicia" there were no frontiers between the states that conforms the area today, it was a macro state and a at some level independent from "La Intendencia de Mexico", thus passing between today Zac, Jal, etc. wasn't really crossing any border.

Like Cathy mentioned the relation between the Jerezes are its founders, but the Spanish is the one with the "de la frontera" name, is quite difficult to sort them out, even more if we take in account how many records mentioned "jerez" the wine/vinegar instead.

Published by RJQ – Wed, 2015-03-25 11:47 | Permalink

Comment

This is more or less what the introductory letter says (first page):

Antonio madera vzo (vecino) de la ciudad de Sivilla (sevilla) dize que en la Nueva
España esta y reside maestre Alo. (Alonso) su cuñado el cual es ?? (barbero?) y cirujano hombre fin? y sin hijos porque una hija q' tenia se metio de monja, y es administrador del ospital real de la ciudad de mexico y por no tener hijos como dicho es nuestro heredero mas cercano q' a la mujer del dicho Antonio madera q' es su hermana los a ymbiado (embiado) alla(allá) mas para el dar su hacienda y as sus hijos y a si mismo los a ymbiado dinero para hacer el viaje como pido? parece Por la ynformacion que presenta y por que ellos son pobres y padecen muncha necessidad y assi les ymporta su remedio y a permanecer la dha' (dicha) Nueva España en compañia del dicho su cuñado y Hermano suplica a V. alza. (vuestra alteza) les mande dar licenza. (licencia) para alla q' enello recibira mucho?

I put question marks on words that don't convince me, is practically the typical petition for a licence to go to America, the next pages may contain more information but usually is just the witnesses declarations. If this is one of your ancestors you should try this document as your spring project :)

Comment

Thank you Katy and RJC. Does it say anything about his age or how he looks like?

I have read about other pasjaeros de indias and it usually would describe the person traveling.

Published by katy_brecht_quesada – Wed, 2015-03-25 18:19 | Permalink

Comment

it's weird how i can't find pasjaeros record for any the founders of jerez like pedro carrillo davila or hernan gonzalez de berrocal

Published by Armando – Wed, 2015-03-25 20:27 | Permalink

Comment

Katy, there are a lot of founders from throughout Nueva Galicia that we are missing the licencia de Pase a Indias.

Comment

Katy, just like Armando mentioned there is many records missing in the historical national/state archives in Mexico and in Spain, many were sent back and forward and finally kept on different territories, many were lost, destroyed, misplaced, you name it. There are many that still archived with out been truly indexed even less shown on the Internet, there is also those that where taken from the archives and sold them to private parties like collectors, in Mexico specially after the revolution many records "disappeared", and although many were destroyed, reality is that they are on someones collections. In my hometown, its native historian the renown J. Amaya Topete found the original documents of the first spanish description of the town (when the natives where still culturally alive) in the University of Austin Texas, go figure how it end up there, a least who ever had it, pass it to an institution, we don't have that much luck with other records.

Any way, the wikipedia entry for Jerez, Zac. in spanish states that its local Historian Luis Miguel Berumen Félix, keeps himself those records concerning the people you just mention, it looks like he has some publications about it, my guess is that the only way for you to put an eye on those records is by contacting him directly. It also mention that some records are in the Guadalajara archives.

In case you haven't, there are also some indexed records of the "Audiencia de Nueva Galicia" on the Public Library of Jalisco website. You may find something there too.

http://www.bpej.udg.mx/catalogo

Comment

ok i'll check into that. the reason why i'm looking, because i've seen a few trees mistakenly refer to hernan gonzalez as being a son of pedro carrillo davila and sancha vazquez de tapia when hernan is too old to be a possible son of theirs(feel free to ask how i came up with that conclusion). i would like figure out who are his parents actually, and to see if pedro carrillo davila and hernan gonzalez were perhaps related to each other in some other way.
it would be nice if i could also find if hernan's wife was either a full or half sister of miguel caldera, but i highly doubt i'll ever find the answer to that question.

also i would like see if hernan's daughter catalina was once married to rodrigo pinedo.

Published by MADERA_32 – Thu, 2015-03-26 13:12 | Permalink

Comment

I also want to thank you very much Katy for helping me out. I remember you stating in the past about "archivos de indias"

I want to mention that when I recently had gone in person to the LDS center to look at microfilm on tierras/escrituras during the late 1600's and early 1700's. There is a person that that came over to chat with me about geneology and she knew so much about the "pasajero de indias" and was on the computer opening all these websites to show me ways to locate people that traveled to the Americas.

I wonder if she can help in finding what your looking for.

Published by MADERA_32 – Sat, 2015-03-28 00:13 | Permalink

Comment

Katy? I am looking at the PARS website and did a search on "testamentos" and filtered to "archivos de indias"

http://www.archivesportaleurope.net/web/guest

I ran across one "relacion de meritos y servicios de Fernando De Vera, Licenciado en canones doctor en Teologia, vicario y juez de testamentos de Jerez de la Frontera, juez eclesiastico de las escuelas de Salamanca" year 1641.

Here is the reference no. to look up: INDIFERENTE,112,N.6

Here are a couple of more people from Jerez De La Frontera mentioned in year 1604:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/b5s0mh.jpg

Reference no. CONTRATACION,272,N.1,R.1

Comment

Madera, Katy, "Jerez de la Frontera" is in Spain, the Mexican one is just called "Jerez" (now with "de García Salinas), called like that after the former.

Comment

yeah i know, it's just that some of the earlier settlers of jerez in mexico came from jerez de la frontera in Spain.

Published by katy_brecht_quesada – Tue, 2015-03-31 19:39 | Permalink

Comment

also madera, can you give me a link to that pdf file on jerez de la frontera

Published by MADERA_32 – Wed, 2015-04-01 11:55 | Permalink

Comment

I found it in google and the name of the PDF file is "actores educativos de la region minera zacatecas" The link has a PDF extension.

Jerez De La Frontera isn't that also Jerez, Zacatecas, Mexico because Jerez is near the border of two states Jalisco and Zacatecas "La Frontera?"

Published by MADERA_32 – Wed, 2015-04-01 12:06 | Permalink

Comment

If you want to find the link? Try googling: "padrones zacatecas 1648"

then when the list comes up? you will see the one that says "actores educativos de la region minera zacatecas" with a pdf extension.

click on that and a pdf file will download on your computer which you then open to look at. It is very long but interesting information. let me know if you found it.

Comment

Why don't you just give us the link?

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 12:05:38 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Introduction
>
> If you want to find the link? Try googling: "padrones zacatecas 1648" then
> when the list comes up? you will see the one that says "actores educativos de
> la region minera zacatecas" with a pdf extension. click on that and a pdf
> file will download on your computer which you then open to look at. It is
> very long but interesting information.
>

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I had trouble trying to copy the link. When I click on the link it downloads the PDF file to my computer. If I right click on the link, "copy link address" and when I tried to paste it here it is too long. It is called, "Actores educativos en la region minera de zacatecas 1754 - 1821" It is a lengthy pdf file and it has lots of information on Zacatecas prior to 1754. It has several pages on the beginnings of Jerez, Zacatecas, Mexico.

Go to google and type:

actores educativos en la region minera de zacatecas 1754 - 1821

You will see it with a "PDF" file and the link begins with upn.mx/../libros-version

Click on it. Let me know if you were able to see it.

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Thank you Armando! What was a barbero? So the cunado name "Maestro Alonso" was a barbero and cirujano? While Antonio Madera was administrador de ospital? Now I have to find out the names of his children. Because their has to be a guy to inherit and continue on the surname "Madera"

Because I need to make the connection of that Antonio Madera of 1573 with my 7th generation Great Grandfather Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709) who was at Minillas, Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico who may be the grandson of the Antonio Madera that cross over to Nuevo Espana on the Pasajero De Indias.

On the very last page, there is a title, "Doctor"

http://oi59.tinypic.com/r7m29z.jpg

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Armando, thank you for the link, thats interesting indeed, also I am guessing that by Maestre he could had work for the military.

Madera, I am sorry for not translating, is English your native language? (mine is spanish, with my bad english is rather obvious) It goes something like this:

Antonio Madera neighbor from Sevilla says, In Nueva España there is and lives Maestre Alonso his Bthr in law, who is a Barber and Surgeon, a men without kids since his daughter became a Nun, and he (Alonso) is an administrator of the Ospital Real of Mexico city, and because he doesn't' have kids we(Madera's family and Alonso) have the closest "inheritance relation", the wife of the mentioned Antonio Madera who is his (Alonso) sister has been summoned (in Mexico) to be inherited as well as her kids, he (Alonso) also send them money for the trip according to the presented information, since they (Madera's family) are poor and have much necessities, thus they need this and also to live there (Mexico) in the company of the aforementioned Brother in Law, whom beg to your Highness for a license since they would receive the most out of it.

If I have time I would look for other information on the document that seems interesting, in this case since Antonio M. was already married and the main person in question is his wife, there is no initial description of them, unlike sigles who traveled in those days, but it may be something with in the docs, I havent seen them all.
Also the name Madera brings quite a few hits on the pares website, it may be the case that more than one came to America. By the way is Francisco I. Madero related to your ancestors, that would be interesting.

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Thank you RJQ,

Very interesting in what you tell me. I have for sure my ancestry traced back to 1660 going back to my 7th generation great grandparents "Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709) and Maria De La Candelaria Angon (1655 - 1735). But they lived at Minillas, Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico. Two generations later their grandson Blas Madera had two sons name Francisco Madera and Lazaro Madera who then show up at Huejuquilla El Alto during the early 1700's. And that is where we have been since.

I don't know who the parents are of Antonio Madera of Minillas, Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico.

Oh wait? It was the Maestro Alonso that you say didn't have kids and for that reason had Antonio Madera and his wife travel to Mexico for the inheritance since Alonso is the brother of the wife of Antonio.

But then there is the posibility that Antonio and his wife had kids that traveled along too.

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Madera, the fact your oldest ancestor found shares the same name as the one in the records adds to the possibilities, no doubt, kids and grand kids usually have their folks names, take in account though, that the name Madera/Madero was not uncommon, and there are more records of people with this name coming to then Nueva España, those in the record went straight to Mexico city, you should check on the church records there.

And yes, that page states that Alonso did not have but a daughter who became a Nun and thus (I guessing) deprived of possessions. I does seems like they, Madera and his wife had kids, next time I give it a look to the rest of the record, this if not you or someone else have figured out already.

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Thank you RJQ,

And I am very sad that the original records of your town ended up in the University of Austin, Texas which does not belong there.

My female partner has an older sister from ciudad zacatecas, Mexico who is a historian of Zacatecas with a degree and she wrote a book that is on publication, and I have a copy. She told me that she used to work in the library of archives in downtown Guadalupe, Zacatecas, Mexico, that is open to the public, that some people would go to the library and rip out pages from the original books and take them.

I thank you so much on you with all the information your giving me and your interpretation of the document I had asked for help on as my eyes are wide open and also relaying to my cousin who is eager to know. She is on my facebook and she currently lives in Guadalajara where she has worked for he Government. She is from our village and we share the same Great Great Grandfather Patricio Madera where she told me tales about him that she heard from her relatives. She had told me that her uncles had tales that Patricio Madera fue "firmante de adhesion al Federalismo en 1824."

I would definetly appreciate it if you can further decipher that document for me to see if Antonio Madera and Isabela Lopez that moved to Mexico City in 1573 had kids. Becuase since it is very hard to find records of Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico that go beyond my 7th generation great grandfather Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709).

You are correct that I should look at the records of Mexico City for the Antonio Madera and Isabela Lopez that moved there in 1573. I would probably search for defunto records in Mexico City which might give more information as to any kids they may have had. Which then I can follow those kids or grandkids to see if any of them had gone to Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico.

Also you mentioned Francisco I, Madero. That would be neat if I am related to him. From what I know about him, his family is from Chihuahua, Mexico and are wealthy business owners. I think he may be related to the winery of "Casa Madero" in Coahuila, Mexico. From their website it says that winery was formed when a group of Friars had departed from Zacatecas in the late 1500's heading up north where they arrived to Valle De Parras, Coahuila, Mexico where they established wineries. I wonder how they got the name "Madero"

I also want to check into your town where you mentioned about an original document by the spanish of their first description of your town.

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Madera, its really not that much, I enjoy reading all documents and in turn "helps" me for when I go back to my genealogy, is good to focus on something totally unrelated sometimes to go back "afresh", I am glad I can help a little, and like I said, its a retro-feeding process.

You are lucky that your last name is in fact in "Castellano", that is, not foreign to the language, thus it almost never changed nor it was misspelled often, but I would suggest to keep an eye on the "Madero" variation. I would think that they are in fact the same name.

Even with all the loses, we are lucky that Mexico and Spain have so many records still, many other countries are not that reach in archives, we think it as a bummer when we can't pass the 1600's, but in reality much more people from other places can't even go beyond a couple of generations.

Jesus Amaya Topete was from Ameca in Jalisco, which is my hometown, He published quite a bit of stuff about Mexico and Jalisco history, to my luck I've never been able to see his actual books, but citations from them in other works. He found those documents I mentioned that belongs to "Las relaciones" which were geographical, historical and political descriptions of towns ordered by the Spanish Monarchy done in many places including Spain.

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Yes, I looked him up yesterday and saw that he is from Ameca. I believed Ameca is in Southern Jalisco, but then saw on map it is in the center. Is it closer to Colotlan or Guadalajara?

I was reading up on some history of Ameca and also I vaguely remember seeing old maps of Ameca that I saw in the PARS website.

Have you looked up Ameca in this website:

http://www.archivesportaleurope.net/web/guest

There are some information on Ameca there. Search for it then when the list comes up, filter on the left side by selecting, archivo de indias.

I see an old map of ameca 1709. And other documents prior to that.

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Madera thank you for the link, yes, there are more than one Ameca, a least two with this exact name, one close to Huejuquilla on the north side, my town is the one close to Cocula in the 70 highway towards Mascota from Guadalajara. Really old town but my paternal line came from Nochistlán, my own "tale of two cities" :).

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