Hi Katy,
I don't descend from this family, but, from everything I've read, Maria Cid is always described as either a sister or a half-sister.
Very nice finding! Thank you for sharing, this is the first time I myself got to see where San Nicolas actually could it be in relation to Nochistlán (which is at the south in this interpretation).
https://cronicascartograficas.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/mexcity1524-2…
I also found this link that has old books of Mexico:
Another link of old maps and I like the one of Veracruz in color year 1628:
are miguel caldera and maria cid siblings or is miguel caldera her uncle. miguel's will refers to maria cid as his sister, but tomas villegas's ordenes refers to miguel as being maria cid's uncle.
Thank you Kathy, your work has been helpful to me on many occasions.
Deedra Corona
is there any ordenes or marriage dispensations that you would like index that haven't been yet? also is there any additional city tags or other tags you would like me to add to posts? should i start indexing capellenias as well?
Interesting reading about the Limon last name my mom is from yahualica Jalisco do you know where does the Limon come from I have heard they have shepardic lineage.
Hi Katy,
I have studied much of Jaime Holcombes work. In much of his documentation he would write little notes identifying sources. When you take into account the tremendous volume of his work, it is extremely reliable. However he was not perfect. I found five mistakes in his work. Others have also found mistakes. Since most of the time he provides sources, it is easy to check his work. I repeat, for the sheer volume of his work that he accomplished before the internet, it is considered reliable
ok then, maybee i'll take his word about pedro, but not on miguel having a son.
edit; i found the tomas villegas ordination mentioned in the notes and it comfirms that the pedro who married maria carrillo is a son of hernan and maria.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18379-40348-5?cc=1874591&wc=…
Hi Katy,
One mistake that Holcombe made was stating that Joachin Leonardo Alvarez Tostado and Maria Antonia de Los Dolores Gonzalez had only two children. Others have copied this information. Through baptisms, marriage records and dispensations there are at least five children born to this couple. One of their progeny died young. This child was named Jose Domingo Alvarez-Tostado y Gonzalez. Since he died young, the family named another son by the same name. Jaime Holcombe does not list the second child by the same name. This child is important in my ancestral line as he is my grandfathers' great grandfather. Sometimes people aren't listed in wills for various reasons. The will may have been written before the child was born. Or the child was born after the will was written but before changes to the will could be made. Sometimes children died before their parents so they aren't named in the wills.
Another example is Christoforo Colon not being named as the main inheritor in his fathers will because his father never forgave for some of the things that he did that the family was not proud of. He was the black sheep of his family for what he did from 14 years of age to about 20. He also messed up again with his first wife which really bothered his father. The King of Portugal forgave what he did to his Cristoforo's wife even though she was under his protection but Colons father never forgave him.
Black sheep family members are sometimes completely ignored.
Sometimes they didn't have to be black sheep. Centuries ago it wasn't that important to record the information of the younger brothers as the eldest was the one that usually inherited titles. The great knight William Marshall was only a younger son, of many sons, of minor nobility so they did not record his birthdate. It is only through his amazing life that we know about him. Actually many of us from Los altos de Jalisco may descend from William Marshall but most people don't know it. His great grandaughter is possibly our ancestor but because so many people misread a document, they believe that we don't descend from her and name her husbands daughters as illegitimate. They say that she never had any children which may not be true. She possibly had one daughter. But the record that is given as evidence states only that another of his daughters is illegitimate and that these two daughters are half sisters. I believe that this document actually reinforces that our ancestor was their legitimate daughter. This letter infers that our ancestor is legitimate. His other kids are identified in other places as being illegitimate. Our ancestor is never identified as being illegitimate in any of the records that I have seen. There is another prominent genealogist that has supported this claim of legitimacy. This case begs for more research.
Toribio Hernandez Arellano is another example of a much younger brother where there aren't many records with him being mentioned. His older brother inherited his fathers position and businesses so Toribio was a prime candidate to go to the new world to seek his fortune. Also Toribios father died when he was only about seven or eight years old and he was raised by his mothers family. He was in no position to inherit anything from his family. Toribios brother avoided the stink of the family scandal by inheriting and keeping his fathers position but all other family members were under suspicion so Toribio going to Nueva Galicia to start a new life was a no-brainier.
I know someone who died that didn't name any children from his first wife in his will, listing only the kids from his second marriage. It was as if he had never had a first marriage. His own brothers were very upset about this and contested the will for the children of the first marriage.
Just because someone is not named in a record does not mean he doesn't exist.
R A. Ricci
ok, but if miguel caldera did have a son, why would he only mention his daughter instead of a son.
on another note: the tomas villegas ordenes lists miguel as maria cid's tio hermano, which seems to contradict other sources.
Hi Katy,
I wonder if there are two Thomas Villegas and that is what is calling the confusion. I have the same issue with Diego alcocer. Two different sources claim something different and have him as a son of two brothers at the same time. A third source claims that the son of one brother died young which would support the other claim but most people follow the first source.
Good luck,
Rick A Ricci,
PS. Are you in the Los Angeles area?
i don't know if there is two tomas villegas or not, but i think miguel's paternal grandfather was also named miguel. other sources such as his will state that maria cid is his sister(didn't specify if full or half) and refers to her son as sobrino and her daughter maria as a sobrina. but this ordenes calls miguel caldera maria cid's tio hermano.
also i live in the inland empire area.
I notice that Familysearch updated the church records for Jalisco on 3 June, 2015. Does anyone know how to locate the records that actually were added?
i'm not sure how to do that but i did find that they re-added guadalajara dispensas collection for 1751
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-22720-76?cc=1874591&wc…
Does anyone have any information on Martin Enríquez (whose mother was Magdalena de Saldaña) and Isabel de Ulloa?
isabel's parents are lorenzo ulloa and ana de escobedo. lorenzo is the son of francisco ulloa and juana flores. ana's parents are juan escobedo and melchora cabrera
Wow! That's really good information. Thank you!
I believe her parents and grandparents lives in Monte Escobedo. Would you by chance have the source for this information?
here's a marriage record for one of isabel's sisters
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15529-36614-33?cc=1804458&wc…
your welcome hfaizcorbe.
if you are wondering, these documents is how i was able to link isabel and juana maria as sisters(note they got their dad's name wrong because juana maria's marriage record gives lorenzo as the dad's name)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18425-17968-37?cc=1874591&wc…
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18416-72661-28?cc=1874591&wc…
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-83322-8?cc=1874591&wc=…
Additionally, I have found a marriage information given in Jerez on 12th August, 1673, for Leonor de Ulloa, daughter of Francisco de Ulloa and Juana Flores.
Martin Enriquez and Ysabel de Ulloa are my 6th GGPs. You can find them and their family on
my Tree here on Nuestros Ranchos under Gedcom under Joseph de Leon Family Tree.
Joseph de Leon
Hello "My Genes",
Having descended from the Hurtado de Mendozas and the Perez, Franco families from Los Altos, I would be very interested in this documentation.
Since this site does not feel that it is the appropriate place to discuss judeochristian and Jews that I have found to be los alto de ancestors I will refrain from posting here the findings from many, many, many years of study on the genealogy of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano. Toribio's daughters and grandchildren married into the other founding families of Los altos de Jalisco . For those that are interested in learning about his genealogy, I will post when the book I am writing is published.
R A Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
In your studies have you determined who the parents of Toribio Hernandez de
Arellano are, or at least who the possible parents might be?
Paige
I have determined who his parents are, his ancestry, and have stories to tell about them. There are court records of a scandal that his great uncles were involved in. Even though his father and grandfather were not found guilty, other family members were found guilty. I won't write more here. If you are interested but don't want to buy the book, I'm sure someone will post excerpts once the book is published.
Since this site does not feel that it is the appropriate place to discuss judeochristian and Jews that I have found to be Los Altos de Jalisco ancestors, I will refrain from posting here the findings from many, many, many years of study on the genealogy of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano. Toribio's daughters and grandchildren married into the other founding families of Los altos de Jalisco . When the book I am writing is published, I will post where you can buy it.
R A Ricci
Would you be willing to share the parents of Toribio Hernandez de
Arellano with the rest of us?
Paige
You are going to have to wait for the book.
Since this site does not feel that it is the appropriate place to discuss judeochristian and Jews that I have found to be Los Altos de Jalisco ancestors, I will refrain from posting here the findings from many, many, many years of study on the genealogy of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano. Toribio's daughters and grandchildren married into the other founding families of Los altos de Jalisco . When the book I am writing is published, I will post where you can buy it.
The last time that I participated in this discussion on this ancestry, I felt it was best that I stay away from this website. I got over it and came back a couple of years ago but don't care to continue this discussion here. I will continue to post on other subjects. Even after I publish this book, I will not discuss this research on this website since it has been found to be an inappropriate place for this information.
Ironically, some of the people who made what I feel were inappropriate comments about my research are close relatives as I am closely related to the Casillas and Alvarez from Valle de Guadalupe and San Miguel el Alto. These people have the most to gain, though they may not like the results of all this research.
R A Ricci
Aka mygenes2000
I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
Scientific Study
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
Second independant Study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
ysearch user:FWRJ5
In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
"Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed of the Jews and Moors'".
I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the EU?
So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or the New World were "pure" anything.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
>
> Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
>
> Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
>
> Scientific Study
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
>
> Second independant Study
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>
> The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
>
> Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
>
> There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
>
> I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
>
> Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
> http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> ysearch user:FWRJ5
>
> In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
>
> Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
>
> It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
>
> There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
Hello Emile
As of now there is an amplitude of genetic studies pro and con trying to clamp down on a "Jewish" signature in a person's dna. At first it was believed that the CMH or Cohen Modal Haplogroup repeating code was a signature that must, and I mean must, mean Jewish ancestory.
Unfortunately for those believing that the CMH was the end all say all in proving descendancy from the Priest Aaron, brother of Moses was spread throughout several
y paternal Haplogroups. Which would have made it out of the range in Torah or Old Testament Timelines.
At this point, the current idea is that haplogroup J1e, which according to one mutation rate is the y haplo marker for descendacy of the man from the Hyskos group named Aaron. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
But there is another camp, which believes that this marker appeared around Roman times, which could be a priestly survivor of the Jewish Diaspora. Anyone having this marker has a higher chance of being original Hebrew/Hyskos. Therefore jews having other markers are converts to that religion.
I'd like to know what marker is specifically Jewish non Cohen? Or is it a matter of just believes and religions?
Polemic topic to follow:
Recall, that the students of Paul who were Greco-Romans found Judiasm appealing except for one minor detail. You can find this in the letters of Paul against James and Peter. That detail was circumcision. To the Greco-Romans-Egyptians saw this as a sign of slavery. To men who practice Judiasm this a sign of a contract with their God. In the southwest there are people who's fathers and fathers fathers practiced this secretly. So another potential marker besides a haplogroup of middle eastern origin could be this practice. I guess asking your grandfather if this was practiced could be an indicator as well.
Actapatio---Look for my response to your post here on the General list. If you insist on continuing this debate please do not use this Research list since those who signed up for only the Research list do not appreciate seeing debates of this kind.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:42:18 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Hello Emile
>
> As of now there is an amplitude of genetic studies pro and con trying to clamp down on a "Jewish" signature in a person's dna. At first it was believed that the CMH or Cohen Modal Haplogroup repeating code was a signature that must, and I mean must, mean Jewish ancestory.
>
> Unfortunately for those believing that the CMH was the end all say all in proving descendancy from the Priest Aaron, brother of Moses was spread throughout several
> y paternal Haplogroups. Which would have made it out of the range in Torah or Old Testament Timelines.
>
> At this point, the current idea is that haplogroup J1e, which according to one mutation rate is the y haplo marker for descendacy of the man from the Hyskos group named Aaron. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
>
> But there is another camp, which believes that this marker appeared around Roman times, which could be a priestly survivor of the Jewish Diaspora. Anyone having this marker has a higher chance of being original Hebrew/Hyskos. Therefore jews having other markers are converts to that religion.
>
> I'd like to know what marker is specifically Jewish non Cohen? Or is it a matter of just believes and religions?
>
> Polemic topic to follow:
> Recall, that the students of Paul who were Greco-Romans found Judiasm appealing except for one minor detail. You can find this in the letters of Paul against James and Peter. That detail was circumcision. To the Greco-Romans-Egyptians saw this as a sign of slavery. To men who practice Judiasm this a sign of a contract with their God. In the southwest there are people who's fathers and fathers fathers practiced this secretly. So another potential marker besides a haplogroup of middle eastern origin could be this practice. I guess asking your grandfather if this was practiced could be an indicator as well.
I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
to accept Spain? I don't see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
low.
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
wrote:
>
> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples
> and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
> reasons especially to gain money and position.
>
>
>
> My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de
> Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in
> Mexico or going back to Spain.
>
>
>
> He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture
> of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more
> pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them
> [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper
> classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the
> Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope
> Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed
> of the Jews and Moors'".
>
>
>
> I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
> as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the
> EU?
>
>
>
> So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are
> now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or
> the New World were "pure" anything.
>
>
>
> Emilie
>
> Port Orchard, WA
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
> >
> > I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment
> above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were
> mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore
> enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew
> about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly
> Celtic origins.
> >
> > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous
> and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to
> conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He
> was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So,
> there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country.
> Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they
> too were Catholic.
> >
> > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman
> Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a
> great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups
> r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
> >
> > Scientific Study
> >
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
> >
> > Second independant Study
> >
> >
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> >
> .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
> >
> > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory
> is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
> >
> > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to
> Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1
> =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2%
> R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
> >
> > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however
> this is not the family that we are talking about.
> >
> > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to
> log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are
> descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the
> power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged
> to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and
> the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to
> the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their
> administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family
> that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his
> new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
> >
> > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic
> descendants...
> > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> > ysearch user:FWRJ5
> >
> > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them
> being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
> >
> > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then
> they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and
> involved of the Orden of Santiago.
> >
> > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my
> family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage
> certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
> >
> > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
> mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the
> cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
Mongrels, Mutts...she means "mixed" and every last one of us are mixed, that is the truth. Not one ethnic group in Europe is pure, German, Spanish,English,Italian ALL are mixed. I hope that this is all a misunderstanding and we're not kidding ourselves into thinking that one group is superior to another..that is for small minds and people who want to drag us back to the Middle ages. If anything DNA has proven that you can't judge a book by it's cover.
Robert~
Mongrel and mutt are derogatory terms when speaking about people. I don't
know why you think somebody is trying to claim purity. If you had read my
other posts your response would have been different.
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 9:08 PM, wrote:
> Mongrels, Mutts...she means "mixed" and every last one of us are mixed,
> that is the truth. Not one ethnic group in Europe is pure, German,
> Spanish,English,Italian ALL are mixed. I hope that this is all a
> misunderstanding and we're not kidding ourselves into thinking that one
> group is superior to another..that is for small minds and people who want to
> drag us back to the Middle ages. If anything DNA has proven that you can't
> judge a book by it's cover.
> Robert~
>
Armando, If you choose to be insulted that is your choice. Maybe the words could have been chosen a bit more tactfully, but anyway you slice it...WE ARE MESTIZOS.
Not only us, but Spaniards,Poles,Germans,Italians etc.
Robert~
Look for my response to this post on the General list. This Research list is strictly for those discussing the genealogical info on their ancestors. The General list is for other types of discussions.
Emilie
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
> call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
>
> Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
> to accept Spain? I don't see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
> low.
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples
> > and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
> > reasons especially to gain money and position.
> >
> >
> >
> > My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de
> > Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in
> > Mexico or going back to Spain.
> >
> >
> >
> > He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture
> > of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more
> > pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them
> > [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper
> > classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the
> > Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope
> > Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed
> > of the Jews and Moors'".
> >
> >
> >
> > I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
> > as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the
> > EU?
> >
> >
> >
> > So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are
> > now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or
> > the New World were "pure" anything.
> >
> >
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
> > >
> > > I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment
> > above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were
> > mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore
> > enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew
> > about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly
> > Celtic origins.
> > >
> > > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous
> > and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to
> > conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He
> > was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So,
> > there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country.
> > Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they
> > too were Catholic.
> > >
> > > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman
> > Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a
> > great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups
> > r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
> > >
> > > Scientific Study
> > >
> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
> > >
> > > Second independant Study
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> > >
> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> > > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
> > >
> > > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory
> > is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
> > >
> > > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to
> > Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> > > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1
> > =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2%
> > R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
> > >
> > > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however
> > this is not the family that we are talking about.
> > >
> > > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to
> > log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are
> > descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the
> > power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged
> > to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and
> > the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to
> > the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their
> > administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family
> > that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his
> > new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
> > >
> > > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic
> > descendants...
> > > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> > > ysearch user:FWRJ5
> > >
> > > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them
> > being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
> > >
> > > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then
> > they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and
> > involved of the Orden of Santiago.
> > >
> > > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my
> > family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage
> > certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
> > >
> > > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
> > mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the
> > cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Thank you, Emilie!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:12:54
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Look for my response to this post on the General list. This Research list is strictly for those discussing the genealogical info on their ancestors. The General list is for other types of discussions.
Emilie
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
> call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
>
> Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
> to accept Spain? I don't see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
> low.
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples
> > and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
> > reasons especially to gain money and position.
> >
> >
> >
> > My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de
> > Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in
> > Mexico or going back to Spain.
> >
> >
> >
> > He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture
> > of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more
> > pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them
> > [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper
> > classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the
> > Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope
> > Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed
> > of the Jews and Moors'".
> >
> >
> >
> > I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
> > as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the
> > EU?
> >
> >
> >
> > So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are
> > now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or
> > the New World were "pure" anything.
> >
> >
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
> > >
> > > I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment
> > above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were
> > mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore
> > enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew
> > about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly
> > Celtic origins.
> > >
> > > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous
> > and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to
> > conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He
> > was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So,
> > there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country.
> > Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they
> > too were Catholic.
> > >
> > > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman
> > Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a
> > great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups
> > r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
> > >
> > > Scientific Study
> > >
> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
> > >
> > > Second independant Study
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> > >
> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> > > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
> > >
> > > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory
> > is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
> > >
> > > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to
> > Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> > > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1
> > =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2%
> > R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
> > >
> > > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however
> > this is not the family that we are talking about.
> > >
> > > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to
> > log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are
> > descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the
> > power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged
> > to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and
> > the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to
> > the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their
> > administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family
> > that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his
> > new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
> > >
> > > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic
> > descendants...
> > > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> > > ysearch user:FWRJ5
> > >
> > > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them
> > being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
> > >
> > > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then
> > they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and
> > involved of the Orden of Santiago.
> > >
> > > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my
> > family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage
> > certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
> > >
> > > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
> > mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the
> > cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Spain is as European as it gets, I think many people are shocked that"white people" speak Spanish, the Spaniards and their descendants.European=Christian. I think its the English who invited Spain to becomethe next member of the EU. England and Spain have always had an interestingrelationship. The EU was also formed in an effort to unite Europe. We say WWI andWWII how nationalism and the belief of superiority led to the destructionof Europe. Not all of Europe is in the EU perhaps they still dont seecertain countries as their equal, not sure. But in reality all Europeansare related. All of our ancestors came from the Germanic, Latin, Ruso,Greeks, Celtic and Roman people.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
> call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
>
> Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
> to accept Spain? I don't see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
> low.
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples
>> and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
>> reasons especially to gain money and position.
>>
>>
>>
>> My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de
>> Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in
>> Mexico or going back to Spain.
>>
>>
>>
>> He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture
>> of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more
>> pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them
>> [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper
>> classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the
>> Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope
>> Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed
>> of the Jews and Moors'".
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
>> as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the
>> EU?
>>
>>
>>
>> So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are
>> now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or
>> the New World were "pure" anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Emilie
>>
>> Port Orchard, WA
>>
>>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>>> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
>>> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
>>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>>>
>>> I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment
>> above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were
>> mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore
>> enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew
>> about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly
>> Celtic origins.
>>>
>>> Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous
>> and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to
>> conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He
>> was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So,
>> there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country.
>> Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they
>> too were Catholic.
>>>
>>> Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman
>> Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a
>> great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups
>> r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
>>>
>>> Scientific Study
>>>
>> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
>>>
>>> Second independant Study
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
>>>
>> .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
>>> A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>>>
>>> The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory
>> is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
>>>
>>> Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to
>> Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
>>> R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1
>> =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2%
>> R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
>>>
>>> There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however
>> this is not the family that we are talking about.
>>>
>>> I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to
>> log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are
>> descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the
>> power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged
>> to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and
>> the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to
>> the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their
>> administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family
>> that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his
>> new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
>>>
>>> Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic
>> descendants...
>>> http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
>>> ysearch user:FWRJ5
>>>
>>> In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them
>> being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
>>>
>>> Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then
>> they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and
>> involved of the Orden of Santiago.
>>>
>>> It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my
>> family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage
>> certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
>>>
>>> There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
>> mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the
>> cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>
King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the place of queen as long as alfonso xI lived. Her sons from him are the ancestors of many altenos. She came from a prestigious jewish family.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:33:30
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
"Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed of the Jews and Moors'".
I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the EU?
So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or the New World were "pure" anything.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
>
> Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
>
> Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
>
> Scientific Study
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
>
> Second independant Study
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>
> The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
>
> Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
>
> There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
>
> I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
>
> Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
> http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> ysearch user:FWRJ5
>
> In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
>
> Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
>
> It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
>
> There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
Wasnt only Leonor's mom Jewish? I thought her paternal side was anoble family?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:04:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the place of queen as long as alfonso xI lived. Her sons from him are the ancestors of many altenos. She came from a prestigious jewish family.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emilie Garcia
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:33:30
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
>
> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
>
>
>
> My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
>
>
>
> He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed of the Jews and Moors'".
>
>
>
> I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the EU?
>
>
>
> So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or the New World were "pure" anything.
>
>
>
> Emilie
>
> Port Orchard, WA
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
> >
> > I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
> >
> > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
> >
> > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
> >
> > Scientific Study
> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
> >
> > Second independant Study
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
> >
> > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
> >
> > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
> >
> > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
> >
> > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
> >
> > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
> > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> > ysearch user:FWRJ5
> >
> > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
> >
> > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
> >
> > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
> >
> > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
Group,
I am really surprised this argument has dragged on this long, It
doesn't seem to further any genealogical activity. I see a confusion
of race and relgion,and
everyone who offers DNA evidence so far has overlooked the female
MtDNA part of the equation. There are plenty of sites on the interent
where racial purity can be discussed.
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
>
> Wasnt only Leonor's mom Jewish? I thought her paternal side was anoble family?
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:04:28 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>>
>> King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the place of queen as long as alfonso xI lived. Her sons from him are the ancestors of many altenos. She came from a prestigious jewish family.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Emilie Garcia
>> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:33:30
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>>
>>
>> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
>>
>>
>>
>> My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
>>
>>
>>
>> He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed of the Jews and Moors'".
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the EU?
>>
>>
>>
>> So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or the New World were "pure" anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Emilie
>>
>> Port Orchard, WA
>>
>> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
>> > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
>> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>> >
>> > I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
>> >
>> > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
>> >
>> > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
>> >
>> > Scientific Study
>> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
>> >
>> > Second independant Study
>> >
>> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
>> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
>> > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>> >
>> > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
>> >
>> > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
>> > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
>> >
>> > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
>> >
>> > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
>> >
>> > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
>> > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
>> > ysearch user:FWRJ5
>> >
>> > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
>> >
>> > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
>> >
>> > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
>> >
>> > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
>> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>> >
>> > To post, send email to:
>> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>> >
>> > To change your subscription, log on to:
>> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>
I agree. Although an important subject, is the appropriate forum?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: eric edgar
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:53:43
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Group,
I am really surprised this argument has dragged on this long, It
doesn't seem to further any genealogical activity. I see a confusion
of race and relgion,and
everyone who offers DNA evidence so far has overlooked the female
MtDNA part of the equation. There are plenty of sites on the interent
where racial purity can be discussed.
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
>
> Wasnt only Leonor's mom Jewish? I thought her paternal side was anoble family?
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:04:28 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>>
>> King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the place of queen as long as alfonso xI lived. Her sons from him are the ancestors of many altenos. She came from a prestigious jewish family.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Emilie Garcia
>> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:33:30
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>>
>>
>> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
>>
>>
>>
>> My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
>>
>>
>>
>> He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed of the Jews and Moors'".
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese as not being Europeans. Wasn't there a dust-up about allowing them into the EU?
>>
>>
>>
>> So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or the New World were "pure" anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Emilie
>>
>> Port Orchard, WA
>>
>> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
>> > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
>> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>> >
>> > I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
>> >
>> > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
>> >
>> > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
>> >
>> > Scientific Study
>> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
>> >
>> > Second independant Study
>> >
>> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
>> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
>> > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>> >
>> > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
>> >
>> > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
>> > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
>> >
>> > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
>> >
>> > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
>> >
>> > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
>> > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
>> > ysearch user:FWRJ5
>> >
>> > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
>> >
>> > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
>> >
>> > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
>> >
>> > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
>> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>> >
>> > To post, send email to:
>> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>> >
>> > To change your subscription, log on to:
>> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>
Here Here!
I think it amazing how these discussions go on and on. As long as you
all discuss things in a civil manner I try not to butt in. In this
situation I just want to jump in with both feet in agreement with Eric
and ask everyone to try really hard to bring discussions strongly in the
direction of genealogy of the estados of Jalisco, Zacatecas y/o
Aguascalientes. Yes if you want continue the discussion of this topic
but lets bring some good HARD genealogy into it. Show some documents,
show some film records to refer to, give some fact based oral history
accounts, generally work hard to edify as much as you can with EVERY
reply you make to the group.
IF you have a short comment to make to a CERTAIN individual why not
consider making that comment in a private email, then again even if it
is short but if contains info that can edify others in the group well by
all means send it out to the many.
Just my thoughts,
joseph
======================
Joseph Puentes
NoMeat@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)
eric edgar wrote:
> Group,
>
> I am really surprised this argument has dragged on this long, It
> doesn't seem to further any genealogical activity. I see a confusion
> of race and relgion,and
>
> everyone who offers DNA evidence so far has overlooked the female
> MtDNA part of the equation. There are plenty of sites on the interent
> where racial purity can be discussed.
>
>
>
>
Well the present day Jewish Community in Jalisco:
vivelacomunidad.com
Many of us from los altos descend from king enrique II of spain and his brothers many times over. He and his bothers had descended form jews on his mothers side. I have also found that they descend from moors through at least 4 separate lines.
I also descend from an ancestor of many altenos that was put on trial for continuing to practice judaism on saturdays even though he practiced catholicism on The other 6 days of the week. The trial and conviction is a matter of public record.
Another family with converso as ancestors are the perez franco de paredes whom all oveR los altos and this is from both perez anD franco ancestors.
As to the moor lines I will be providing accurate documentaion of these lines in an essay / article that I am writing.
I have not used dna or clothing or food but plain genealogical/historical research.
------Original Message------
From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Sent: Feb 26, 2010 11:13 AM
My family comes from Los Altos as well, just outside of Tepatitlan, San Jose De Bazarte. First of all,let me say that I'd be proud of my ancestors regardless of background. All of these so called Jewish traits,such as intermarriage within the family, fundemental Catholosism and ladies in " long black cloaks" seem pretty mundane and not evident of any real Jewish tradition, they could all be assigned to any almost European country, especailly in the Mediterranen. The Hapsburg (sp?) rulers of Spain were inbred to a scary degree, they were not Jewish...intermarriage is to keep a blood line "pure" and not only a Jewish trait. don't subscribe to any such notion, I think it is repulsive, and I'm not saying Altenos are descendents of any royal line,just pointing out what history has taught us.
I'm pretty active in the Genetic community and it's laughable to me that anytime a Y DNA marker other than the "Atlantic" R1b marker is mentioned it's automatically assumed to be Moorish or Jewish ( by those who don't know any better). There is indeed a marker called a "Cohen \ Konhanim" which is associated with the haplogroup J1e and J2a which is a good indicator of Jewish ancestory,other than that there is no "Jewish" marker. DNA predates Judaism,as well as Islam or Christianity by thousands of years...it's like saying there is a Democrat or Repulican marker.
There are traditional "Sephardos' in the Southwest, almost exclusivley in New Mexico and they have very distinct customs that support their Jewish ancestory,I'm not aware of these being apparant in anything I've researched concerning Los Altos.
I'm not saying that there aren't Altenos of Jewsih decent,not at all...what I'm saying is before we go so far as to speak with any certainty about any situation, we should have the best sources we can to support our theory.
Robert~
Hello Robert/Gandalf
I agree with you, especially with the markers J2 and J1 which number wise outweigh worldwide practicing jews. There are more j2 and j1 in the entire world that are non jewish.
In regards to the Southwest...
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
Hello R.A. Ricci, my family is from el Valle de Guadalupe. Is this docmented? Neither of my grandfathers r.i.p never said anything about this...please point me in the right direction...
If I may, I want to first say that I agree with the statement that we all participate on this forum to learn and share ideas \ info. I think it is a wonderful resource and my thanks to those that allow us all to participate. I also want to say to Emilie that she is correct, we are all of us, mutts. I always enjoy your posts Emilie, you are a very wise woman.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with being proud of our ancestry, it is diverse and beautiful and DNA is a wonderful tool to help us get better aquainted (sp?) with our "ante pasados". Myself, my DNA is called the "Balkan Marker", which is E-V13, Along with men in Spain,I share exact matches with many Greeks and Bulgarians as well as some "primos" on this very forum. When I started my research I had no idea that one day I would have the same DNA as Lyndon B. Johnson, the Wright Brothers, George Stephanopoulos as well as the Hatfield clan from the famous "Hatfield \ McCoy feud, it is mind blowing.
We should be proud indeed, but not at the expense of others. Any time the old "Purity of Blood" monster rears it's ugly head, we need to squash it.Regarding Spaniards and their (us) decendants, there is no such thing. Many of the Castillian grandees had so much Jewish blood they dare not trace their lineage too far back.
I'm sure there are Altenos of Jewish decent....and "Celtic" and Thracian \ Greek and Gothic and Berber and Moor, but in my humble opinion, it should be more than obvious that we are not all from one source nor is our source any better than any other. We've fought against discrimination for many years, we don't need it from within our own community. Some DNA markers lead some people to believe they are somehow "whiter" ( for lack of a better term)than some of their brothers and sisters here, but they have to remember, your Y and mtDNA are only a small amount of what you really are, it is only that we are able to trace our paternal and maternal lines, but that doesn't give us the whole story....not by a long shot. You never know who or what your genetic "Uncles and Aunts" were.
Best wishes and regards to all here....
Robert~
Hi Aaron, funny thing...I'm also a decendant of a Casillas clan, not sure if it's the one you are referring too though. My family, the Gonzalez-Casillas were one of the first Spanish families to settle the villa San Jose De Bazarte, which was originally calle "San Jose de Moctezuma. My great grandfather, Gregorio Gonzalez was married to Teodosia Casillas and he is buried underneath the altar of the small church \capia in the villa itself. The Gonzalez clan were known as "Los Valientes" because of their tendency to fight, not only for their own self preservation, but in the causes of others. They were known for their abilites as horsemen, something to be proud of since most Altenos learn to ride at an ealry age. My grandfather and his brothers were all large men, six foot plus, and all blond haired and blue eyed, except my granfather who had jet black hair. The reason I'm telling you this is because , one....maybe we're realted...two their DNA was not R1b...rather it is E-V13. How can you say "most" Altenos are R1b ? Has there even been a DNA study conducted made up of all Altenos ? I'm sorry Aaron, but these commnets are still pretty broad to me. Please forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems that relating Altenos to the R1b subclade is in order to give them a more distinguished lineage, which in essence means that the "Celtic" R1b marker is somehow "better" than others. I hope I'm mistaken and this ins't the case.
Most of the founding alteno families were from the North in Spain so thatmight explain the strong Celtic and Germanic roots. Some did comefrom the south.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:59:51 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] General Digest \Aaron
>
> Hello
>
> Yes we are talking about the founding Altenos (non meso americans) of that region as a
> majority were Western Europeans paternally. As the main topic claims that they were
> jewish, I am proving as a descendant of one of the settlers and having taking a DNA test
> that my return was one of the R1b Celtic subclades. Yes there are many different
> subclades down from R1b, however again restating, the Casillas from Martin Casillas was
> determined by Nordvert's haplogroup predictor to be Frisian, which is also a designator
> of Celtic-p language, a second Celtic invasionary group into England, designated by their
> version of the language. My marker was first identified by Oxford University as the
> Oesin tribe line prior to National Geographic or Familytreedna testing. So knowing that
> my family was one of the original Altenos to whom Martin Casillas was given a part of
> Jalos now known as el Valle de Guadalupe and his people were sent to pacify the land from
> the
> native tribes, I feel confident in saying that the majority of original colonist of this
> area were of R1b and specifically the land given to was R1b1b2 subclade Frisian Celts-p.
>
> Of the original back bone familes from los Altos, namely Barba, Cabrera,
> Casillas, Hermosillo to say the least they have returned R1b with their respective
> subclades, Altantic to other R1b Germanic groups. As posted on www.ysearch.org feel free
> to check them out... To me it's no coincidence that these like descendants were working
> together.
>
> (I saw the King Tut special, and read the early forums, potentially R1b, I
> calculated y group L but I didn't see the twin peak returns which indicate R1b, we shall
> see what Dr.Hawas finally reveals, very political to say the least).
>
> As we know R1b and their respective subclade is present in about 50% of all Europeans
> today. Up to 68% Males from Jalisco and Chihuaha seem to be returning same purportional
> European heritage (I'll have get a break down of y haplos). Zacatecas and Northern
> Mexicans more substantial middle eastern/medittereanean returns.
>
> Hi Aaron, funny thing...I'm also a decendant of a Casillas clan, not sure if it's the one you are referring too though. My family, the Gonzalez-Casillas were one of the first Spanish families to settle the villa San Jose De Bazarte, which was originally calle "San Jose de Moctezuma. My great grandfather, Gregorio Gonzalez was married to Teodosia Casillas and he is buried underneath the altar of the small church \capia in the villa itself. The Gonzalez clan were known as "Los Valientes" because of their tendency to fight, not only for their own self preservation, but in the causes of others. They were known for their abilites as horsemen, something to be proud of since most Altenos learn to ride at an ealry age. My grandfather and his brothers were all large men, six foot plus, and all blond haired and blue eyed, except my granfather who had jet black hair. The reason I'm telling you this is because , one....maybe we're realted...two their DNA was not R1b...rather it is E-V1
3.
> How can you say "most" Altenos are R1b ? Has there even been a DNA study conducted made up of all Altenos ? I'm sorry Aaron, but these commnets are still pretty broad to me. Please forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems that relating Altenos to the R1b subclade is in order to give them a more distinguished lineage, which in essence means that the "Celtic" R1b marker is somehow "better" than others. I hope I'm mistaken and this ins't the case.
Well said Robert, I dont think anyone can say all altenos have a certain blood until oneunderstands the genetics of that person. To say he has to have moor or converso bloodjust because he is spaniard is a bit iffy. Im sure there are Altenos that dont even have nativeamerican blood and there are people saying he has to just because. Doesnt make sense.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
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What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of Jalisco.
Some people in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that have Jewish origin.
"La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
"Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
Most of family is from valle de gpe. Tepa and Jalos. My great uncle, may he rest in peace, is Dr Rito Romo Franco.
Dr rito romo franco and his brother, my maternal grandfather, hermenegildo romo franco were 3rd cousins (3 times) of santo toribio romo gonzalez.
------Original Message------
From: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Sent: Feb 25, 2010 6:37 PM
What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of Jalisco.
People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that have Jewish origin.
"La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
"Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
There are stone blocked shaped houses and fences made of slabs of stone all
over the world. They don't point to Jewish origins at all, unless the whole
ancient world was Jewish. Apart from that, customs can be adopted by people
that aren't related. For example, the Normans spoke French but were actually
descendants of Vikings. The Irish spoke Gaelic but are relatives of the
Basque, proven so with DNA. The rodeo is from Mexico, but practiced by the
world now. The whole world plays an English sport, football. Therefore,
without having documentation or science to prove the source means it is only
speculation at the time and doesn't prove anything. Meaning that Los Altos
may eat capirotada and semas due to influence from other areas, and not
because of a converso population. For example mole, all of Mexico eats it,
but it was invented in Puebla by a nun. Does that mean all Mexicans have
poblanos ancestry? The answer is no. Therefore, Is there proof that
capirotada and semas are eaten in Jalisco because of a large converso
population wanting to practice Judaism?
I am in no way against finding Jewish roots but I hope that statements that
try to prove or disprove a link are fully evaluated.
Saludos,
Armando
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:37 PM, wrote:
> What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is
> referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of
> Jalisco.
>
> People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research
> and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that
> have Jewish origin.
>
> "La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
>
> "Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
>
> Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of
> Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled
> on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks
> with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
>
> When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a
> resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
My research has to do with tracing ancestors. I have not based it on capirotada. My research has led to my relatives intermarrying over and over again with marriage to someone from out of the family circle once in a blue moon. The thing is that my research is into all my ancestors and not just the ones taditionally looked at by genealogist. In our culture the jews, moors, indian, and black lines have sometimes been lines that people wanted to hide.
I believed, in the beginning that I would have half indian And half spanish ancestors. I wAs surprised to find ancestors that were over 80 per cent white 1 percent black less than 10 Per cent indian. It is difficult for anyone to do a mexican genealogy and claim to be 100 percent white for at least two reasons
1 espanol meant you were at least 7/8 white.
2. Most of my ancestors, the first settlers, that originally came over were not themselves 100 per cent white
The closeset mexican genealogy that comes to 100 per cent white is my paternal grandmother lucila de la torre rodriguez de hijar and she had the lightest skin coloring that I have ever seen except for albinos. My father inherited her skin color even though his father was about 2 per cent black
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Armando Antuñano
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:26:39
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
There are stone blocked shaped houses and fences made of slabs of stone all
over the world. They don't point to Jewish origins at all, unless the whole
ancient world was Jewish. Apart from that, customs can be adopted by people
that aren't related. For example, the Normans spoke French but were actually
descendants of Vikings. The Irish spoke Gaelic but are relatives of the
Basque, proven so with DNA. The rodeo is from Mexico, but practiced by the
world now. The whole world plays an English sport, football. Therefore,
without having documentation or science to prove the source means it is only
speculation at the time and doesn't prove anything. Meaning that Los Altos
may eat capirotada and semas due to influence from other areas, and not
because of a converso population. For example mole, all of Mexico eats it,
but it was invented in Puebla by a nun. Does that mean all Mexicans have
poblanos ancestry? The answer is no. Therefore, Is there proof that
capirotada and semas are eaten in Jalisco because of a large converso
population wanting to practice Judaism?
I am in no way against finding Jewish roots but I hope that statements that
try to prove or disprove a link are fully evaluated.
Saludos,
Armando
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:37 PM, wrote:
> What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is
> referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of
> Jalisco.
>
> People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research
> and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that
> have Jewish origin.
>
> "La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
>
> "Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
>
> Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of
> Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled
> on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks
> with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
>
> When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a
> resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
Tu si sabes !!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El jue 25-feb-10, Armando Antuñano escribió:
De:: Armando Antuñano
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
A: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 22:26
There are stone blocked shaped houses and fences made of slabs of stone all
over the world. They don't point to Jewish origins at all, unless the whole
ancient world was Jewish. Apart from that, customs can be adopted by people
that aren't related. For example, the Normans spoke French but were actually
descendants of Vikings. The Irish spoke Gaelic but are relatives of the
Basque, proven so with DNA. The rodeo is from Mexico, but practiced by the
world now. The whole world plays an English sport, football. Therefore,
without having documentation or science to prove the source means it is only
speculation at the time and doesn't prove anything. Meaning that Los Altos
may eat capirotada and semas due to influence from other areas, and not
because of a converso population. For example mole, all of Mexico eats it,
but it was invented in Puebla by a nun. Does that mean all Mexicans have
poblanos ancestry? The answer is no. Therefore, Is there proof that
capirotada and semas are eaten in Jalisco because of a large converso
population wanting to practice Judaism?
I am in no way against finding Jewish roots but I hope that statements that
try to prove or disprove a link are fully evaluated.
Saludos,
Armando
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:37 PM, wrote:
> What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is
> referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of
> Jalisco.
>
> People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research
> and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that
> have Jewish origin.
>
> "La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
>
> "Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
>
> Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of
> Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled
> on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks
> with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
>
> When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a
> resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
Well said Armando, very well said. My Alvarez lineage (valle de guadalupe) returned Haplogroup I1 ultra nordic. With hits in Eastern England and throughout Scandanavia. It is my current believe that this part of the family came to los Altos with the French, descendants of Normans who were descendants of Vikings...
We can be found on facebook under haplogroup I1
Not only the French but also remember that Spaniards can also carry almost any halogroupeveryone n Europe is related. Im sure some Spaniards that arrived carried I1 ultra nordic.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:02:01 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Well said Armando, very well said. My Alvarez lineage (valle de guadalupe) returned Haplogroup I1 ultra nordic. With hits in Eastern England and throughout Scandanavia. It is my current believe that this part of the family came to los Altos with the French, descendants of Normans who were descendants of Vikings...
>
> We can be found on facebook under haplogroup I1
En todfo el mundo hay tradiciónes judias, todo el mundo es judio ?
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El jue 25-feb-10, zacatecano020@hotmail.com escribió:
De:: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 20:37
What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of Jalisco.
People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that have Jewish origin.
"La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
"Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
My family comes from Los Altos as well, just outside of Tepatitlan, San Jose De Bazarte. First of all,let me say that I'd be proud of my ancestors regardless of background. All of these so called Jewish traits,such as intermarriage within the family, fundemental Catholosism and ladies in " long black cloaks" seem pretty mundane and not evident of any real Jewish tradition, they could all be assigned to any almost European country, especailly in the Mediterranean. The Hapsburg (sp?) rulers of Spain were inbred to a scary degree, they were not Jewish...intermarriage is to keep a blood line "pure" and not only a Jewish trait. don't subscribe to any such notion, I think it is repulsive, and I'm not saying Altenos are descendents of any royal line,just pointing out what history has taught us.
I'm pretty active in the Genetic community and it's laughable to me that anytime a Y DNA marker other than the "Atlantic" R1b marker is mentioned it's automatically assumed to be Moorish or Jewish ( by those who don't know any better). There is indeed a marker called a "Cohen \ Konhanim" which is associated with the haplogroup J1e and J2a which is a good indicator of Jewish ancestory,other than that there is no "Jewish" marker. DNA predates Judaism,as well as Islam or Christianity by thousands of years...it's like saying there is a Democrat or Repulican marker.
There are traditional "Sephardos' in the Southwest, almost exclusivley in New Mexico and they have very distinct customs that support their Jewish ancestory,I'm not aware of these being apparant in anything I've researched concerning Los Altos.
I'm not saying that there aren't Altenos of Jewsih decent,not at all...what I'm saying is before we go so far as to speak with any certainty about any situation, we should have the best sources we can to support our theory.
Robert~
Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
To me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the families from los Altos came out of the families that were the aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists.
I'm going to repost a comment I made above:
I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
Scientific Study
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
Second independant Study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
ysearch user:FWRJ5
In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
Hello actapatio,primo, falta poco para terminar el segundo libro, llevo 160 paginas, es el libro de Jose Alberto corregido y aumentado, y alli esta tu rama genealógica , Saludos
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 27-feb-10, actapatio2007@yahoo.com escribió:
De:: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado, 27 de febrero de 2010, 12:36
Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
To me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the families from los Altos came out of the families that were the aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists.
I'm going to repost a comment I made above:
I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
Scientific Study http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
Second independant Study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
ysearch user:FWRJ5
In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
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Encuentra las mejores recetas en Yahoo! Cocina.
http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
Que bueno primo...muchos saludos! Como la vez, la gente que no saben quien son los Casillas no conocen los origen de los Altenos!
I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades...so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes--some may have been descendants of "Converso" Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were "old Christians" and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents...and let's not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.
So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing "Crypto" Jews in Los Altos is another story.
If it's the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn't there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me--Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)...so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?
I am not discrediting anybody's research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!
Claudia, That is a great question ! I came to this whole discussion late in the game, I tried to stay out as long as I could but felt I needed some people to clarify...or at least justify what they were posting. My understanding is that it was proof of Jewish ancestry via DNA testing, but I could be wrong. People did mention building style as well as clothing, but I can't see proof of anything from those two statements. Great insight in regards to Conversos and Cryto Jews. I'm sure there are more than a few people related to Conversos and as I posted earlier, outside of a very specific Y DNA marker, you can't tell what a person's faith is by a DNA test. Plenty of European Jews have R1a,J and G haplotypes along with a variation of R1b. Thanks for bringing this up as well as the historical details you presented. Bravo.
Robert~
When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600's and 1700's that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
My father's mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600's or early 1700's. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn't really isn't that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don't. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto with
Converso?
I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades...so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes--some may have been descendants of "Converso" Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were "old Christians" and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents...and let's not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.
So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing "Crypto" Jews in Los Altos is another story.
If it's the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn't there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me--Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)...so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?
I am not discrediting anybody's research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!
When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research. I believed that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered. I was saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not hurt. One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that protected people. He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful husband and father. Yet his genealogy hides fac
ts about his own sisters birth. His records on a nephews inlaws are not accurate or complete. When this nephew also became a genealogist he published without correcting this data. His records on a second cousin who practiced incest with hiS first born daughteR and had children with her are miSsing important details such as most of his children were born after his first wife was dead and through incest.
I believe that even the work of honest and hard working researchers should be looked at very carefully because even they may have Something to hide.
I myself have hidden from myself. I have not researched my half siblings. I do not know the details of my 20 odd half siblings that share the same father but come from different mothers. Or the illegitmate children any of my first uncles or cousins. I have dedicated my research mainly to the past 75 and not present generations. This is in itself an act of concealment since I do have info and leads that will be lost to any future genealogist that wAnts the complete record.
Many times in our families past the lines that lead to jews or moors were concealed and it is only through diligent research, and sometimes good luck, have they come to light.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:53:10
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto
withConverso?
When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600's and 1700's that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
My father's mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600's or early 1700's. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn't really isn't that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don't. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto with
Converso?
I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades...so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes--some may have been descendants of "Converso" Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were "old Christians" and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents...and let's not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.
So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing "Crypto" Jews in Los Altos is another story.
If it's the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn't there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me--Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)...so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?
I am not discrediting anybody's research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!
thank you for your honesty. Like you I have left some of the records for living relatives alone since they would affect them today. Their parents are no longer living but that doesn't give me the right to force the truth of who their father really was down their throats. I wrestled with this before deciding to just leave it alone. I think they know the truth but who am I to say? I have the paper work and maybe one day down the road someone else will put the truth after they have joined the ancestors. I had to make a choice on what I hoped to accomplish with my records and hurting the living was not my choice.
Linda in Marietta
________________________________
From: "mygenes2000@yahoo.com"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:34:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing CryptowithConverso?
When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research. I believed that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered. I was saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not hurt. One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that protected people. He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful husband and father.
Yet his genealogy hides fac
ts about his own sisters birth. His records on a nephews inlaws are not accurate or complete. When this nephew also became a genealogist he published without correcting this data. His records on a second cousin who practiced incest with hiS first born daughteR and had children with her are miSsing important details such as most of his children were born after his first wife was dead and through incest.
I believe that even the work of honest and hard working researchers should be looked at very carefully because even they may have Something to hide.
I myself have hidden from myself. I have not researched my half siblings. I do not know the details of my 20 odd half siblings that share the same father but come from different mothers. Or the illegitmate children any of my first uncles or cousins. I have dedicated my research mainly to the past 75 and not present generations. This is in itself an act of concealment since I do have info and leads that will be lost to any future genealogist that wAnts the complete record.
Many times in our families past the lines that lead to jews or moors were concealed and it is only through diligent research, and sometimes good luck, have they come to light.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Hi Linda,
I don't write much on this website because I can't read Spanish or understand the beautiful language. I married into a good
family but never learn the language. But do read some of the posting on this website and there are very interesting. I have
research of many things that what I do. My favorite is my husband ancestry & mine. Today I was reading all the postings today
from everyone that I receive found them very interesting. But yours is true in many families not just Spanish families I find
in my ancestor the same thing. The genealogy is history of our ancestry and what made all us even the bad and good of
our ancestor. I family both side I give them the access to the family tree they don't want to be bother or not interested but
some day they will be. And my work will be there for all too see like yours so we need too keep truth too our heritage through
the generations that have come and gone for future generations. Today world all of our work on ancestor will be the only thing
that will keep the world believing in each other and respect them. I hope ya'll understand what am saying. All us are pioneers
of the past,present and future. Thanks to all you for history of the world ancestry that makes all who we our.
THANKS,
Paula Miller-Cuellar
----- Original Message ----
> From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:23:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing CryptowithConverso?
>
> thank you for your honesty. Like you I have left some of the records for living
> relatives alone since they would affect them today. Their parents are no longer
> living but that doesn't give me the right to force the truth of who their father
> really was down their throats. I wrestled with this before deciding to just
> leave it alone. I think they know the truth but who am I to say? I have the
> paper work and maybe one day down the road someone else will put the truth after
> they have joined the ancestors. I had to make a choice on what I hoped to
> accomplish with my records and hurting the living was not my choice.
>
> Linda in Marietta
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "mygenes2000@yahoo.com"
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:34:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing
> CryptowithConverso?
>
> When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked
> hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research. I believed
> that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered. I was
> saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half
> truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to
> conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not
> hurt. One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it
> would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and
> my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not
> want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my
> uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that
> protected people. He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful
> husband and father.
> Yet his genealogy hides fac
> ts about his own sisters birth. His records on a nephews inlaws are not accurate
> or complete. When this nephew also became a genealogist he published without
> correcting this data. His records on a second cousin who practiced incest with
> hiS first born daughteR and had children with her are miSsing important details
> such as most of his children were born after his first wife was dead and through
> incest.
> I believe that even the work of honest and hard working researchers should be
> looked at very carefully because even they may have Something to hide.
> I myself have hidden from myself. I have not researched my half siblings. I
> do not know the details of my 20 odd half siblings that share the same father
> but come from different mothers. Or the illegitmate children any of my first
> uncles or cousins. I have dedicated my research mainly to the past 75 and not
> present generations. This is in itself an act of concealment since I do have
> info and leads that will be lost to any future genealogist that wAnts the
> complete record.
> Many times in our families past the lines that lead to jews or moors were
> concealed and it is only through diligent research, and sometimes good luck,
> have they come to light.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
>
>
I have a comment to make about this post but I will do it on the General list. This Research list is strictly for genealogical research and not general discussions.
Emilie
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:53:10 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto withConverso?
>
> When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
> This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
> Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
> As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
> I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
> I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
> What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600's and 1700's that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
> My father's mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600's or early 1700's. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
> Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn't really isn't that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don't. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
> I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
> To:
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto with
> Converso?
>
> I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades...so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
>
> Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
>
> When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes--some may have been descendants of "Converso" Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were "old Christians" and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents...and let's not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.
>
> So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing "Crypto" Jews in Los Altos is another story.
>
> If it's the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn't there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me--Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)...so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?
>
> I am not discrediting anybody's research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!
MyGenes2000 (don't know your name):
Your post here is very thoughtful and thorough and you do such a good job of explaining that descendancy in one line is not static as to haplogroup, that some branches off, etc. To say that Altenos cannot possibly have some Jewish blood is to deny the admixtures that had been produced in Europe and brought to the New World due to the mixing of peoples from everywhere in the Roman Empire for centuries.
My husband descends from Altenos from Aguascalientes and Jalisco going back to the 1600s as far as I can track. He is tall, white, a typical tapatio. His great-grandfather was born in Encarnacion de Diaz in 1864, his grandfather was born there too in 1890. They immigrated to El Paso Texas in 1895, and his father was born there in 1909, and my husband was also born in El Paso in 1935. These men, all Altenos, on both paternal and maternal sides, were all circumcized! How about that? According to my husband, it was a family custom! Circumcision is a common practice today, but it wasn't in Mexico or in El Paso among Mexicans then.
I devulge this fact because it was said by someone that circumcision was a mark of slavery, yet as far as I can figure, these men were merchants in Mexico, and in El Paso. No slaves they. Why would these Altenos continue a practice for generations that normally only Jews did? During the Inquisition in Mexico, a man could get burned at the stake for having been circumcized, no?
Thank you, MyGenes2000 for supporting my statement taken from one of my husbands' books about the Jewish ancestry of King Ferdinand the Catholic, but Pope Paul IV said that about King Phillip II who was at war with the Pope.
Here is something else from one of my husband's books, the Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton: "How did it ever happen that, when the dregs of the world had collected in Western Europe, when Goth and Frank and Norman and Lombard had mingled with the rot of old Rome to form a patchwork of hybrid races .........that from all this, there should come Gregorian chant, monasteries and cathedrals......". Of course, Merton was a Frenchman, and he goes on to laud France as being the repository of everything so much better than anywhere else, their stonemason the best builders in the world of cathedrals, etc. I guess it is just the nature of people to be so provincial.
Emilie
-------------
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:53:10 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto withConverso?
> >
> > When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
> > This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
> > Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
> > As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
> > I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
> > I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
> > What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600's and 1700's that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
> > My father's mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600's or early 1700's. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
> > Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn't really isn't that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don't. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
> > I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
> > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
> > To:
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto with
> > Converso?
> >
> > I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades...so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
> >
> > Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
> >
> > When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes--some may have been descendants of "Converso" Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were "old Christians" and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents...and let's not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.
> >
> > So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing "Crypto" Jews in Los Altos is another story.
> >
> > If it's the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn't there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me--Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)...so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?
> >
> > I am not discrediting anybody's research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
I think people need to remember there is no such thing as the "pure race". Thereis no such thing. Though there is "limpieza de sangre" I might be super whitein appearacene but have a mxture of peoples that make my ancestry. I thinklots of people say there are no whites in Mexico and then some say the whiteones are not Mexican at all. Mexico is a diversed country of natives and immigrantsjust like any American country. We are all mixed. About 3/4 of the white population inthe US have some native american or african blood. Which says something, just likein Mexico the whites have at least some native or african blood. Altenos are usually regardedas "the old white aristocracy of Western Mexico" I think thats why most of us dont wantto hear the jewish, black or native blood that one might have. Of course this doesnt mean we are 100% of converso or native blood. I have one black line and two nativeamerican lines, and some jewish lines but mostly european, this shows the diverse bac
kground I have. I might have some moorish blood but havent found any yet.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/
Oigan, creo que son alteños y para nada -altenos.-
¿No creen?
Saludos
Juan Ramón Alvarez
________________________________
From: "actapatio2007@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 6:12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
Que bueno primo...muchos saludos! Como la vez, la gente que no saben quien son los Casillas no conocen los origen de los Altenos!
When did I say we are not mestizos? Again, I don't think you have read my
posts or are confusing me with someone else.
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:09 PM, wrote:
> Bravo Juan !
>
Let me just start by saying if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.
In my opinion we are all culturally and physically diverse...as is any group or country. When we particiapte in ideas of "purity of blood" or group superiority we are following down the path of some of the most despicable people in history.
Be proud of your ancestors, but not at the expense of others. Don't look at a group of people the way that you would like to see them. We all have ideas of who and what we are, and some don't like that to be challenged, that's fine, but respect everyones beliefs if you want yours to be respected in turn.
As in the case of Spain, it's downfall was that it began to believe mythology as fact, it expelled groups of people it deemed unworthy to call themselves Spaniards when they themselves had more than a little of that "tainted" blood. In the end all that was left was a group of lazy, corrupt hidalgos whose parchments weren't worth a loaf of bread.
I love Spain and am very proud of my Spanish roots, I've traveled from Asturias to Extremadura and the people that I grew to love and respect were the simple Spanish peasant. You'd be hard pressed to find a more kind,generous and noble person in the world...those are the people I hope to count as my ancestors. That is what I choose to see in us, their decendants.
That is exactly how my Alteno husband feels.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:52:24 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Evidence \DNA " truths"
>
> Let me just start by saying if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.
>
> In my opinion we are all culturally and physically diverse...as is any group or country. When we particiapte in ideas of "purity of blood" or group superiority we are following down the path of some of the most despicable people in history.
>
> Be proud of your ancestors, but not at the expense of others. Don't look at a group of people the way that you would like to see them. We all have ideas of who and what we are, and some don't like that to be challenged, that's fine, but respect everyones beliefs if you want yours to be respected in turn.
>
> As in the case of Spain, it's downfall was that it began to believe mythology as fact, it expelled groups of people it deemed unworthy to call themselves Spaniards when they themselves had more than a little of that "tainted" blood. In the end all that was left was a group of lazy, corrupt hidalgos whose parchments weren't worth a loaf of bread.
>
> I love Spain and am very proud of my Spanish roots, I've traveled from Asturias to Extremadura and the people that I grew to love and respect were the simple Spanish peasant. You'd be hard pressed to find a more kind,generous and noble person in the world...those are the people I hope to count as my ancestors. That is what I choose to see in us, their decendants.
>
>
>
I agree with Emilie, in addition your comments are out of line and antagonistic. I do not even know who the Casillas are, sorry. We are all here to learn about family history. We're not to accuse fellow researchers of being into fantasies about capirotada and of dallying in fantasies of 'Jewish' victimization as you do in the following comments:
"To
me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be
something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the
families from los Altos came out of the families that were the
aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists."
"There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies
to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish."
Like I said, I don't have a clue who the Casillas are but I can appreciate that you have done some great research and have come to your own truth. I'm here to learn about everything Genealogy at Nuestros. I am not however here to see people flame each other. Quit flaming the good folks on here. We're all here to learn and to share information respectfully.
Yolanda
________________________________
From: "actapatio2007@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 10:36:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
To me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the families from los Altos came out of the families that were the aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists.
I'm going to repost a comment I made above:
I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
Scientific Study http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
Second independant Study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
ysearch user:FWRJ5
In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
To post, send email to:
research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
To change your subscription, log on to:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
Hello Yolanda
I guess I'm tired of the misdirection and misinformation being thrown around about the descendants of los Altos. Especially, the Jewish fad that is going around at this time. If at all, these markers could be mediterranean. The ironic thing is that majority of people who claim Judiac history don't know that much about the origins of that people and their history.
The blanket statement that Altenos, especially in the cases where my family members are being mentioned as being jewish (i dont care if they were buddhist)its quite inflamatory, especially with the lack of evidence both dna and documented such as birth certificates or otherwise. I recieve emails once and while from people who have been misled over and over again into believing that they are jewish. Where are they getting these ideas? They are truly missing out on their real heritage at that point.
I agree with Emilie, in addition your comments are out of line and antagonistic. I do not even know who the Casillas are, sorry. We are all here to learn about family history. We're not to accuse fellow researchers of being into fantasies about capirotada and of dallying in fantasies of 'Jewish' victimization as you do in the following comments:
"To
me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be
something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the
families from los Altos came out of the families that were the
aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists."
"There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies
to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish."
Like I said, I don't have a clue who the Casillas are but I can appreciate that you have done some great research and have come to your own truth. I'm here to learn about everything Genealogy at Nuestros. I am not however here to see people flame each other. Quit flaming the good folks on here. We're all here to learn and to share information respectfully.
Yolanda
________________________________
From: "actapatio2007@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 10:36:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
To me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the families from los Altos came out of the families that were the aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists.
I'm going to repost a comment I made above:
I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
Scientific Study http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
Second independant Study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
ysearch user:FWRJ5
In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
To post, send email to:
research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
To change your subscription, log on to:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
How exactly is the Viceroy and the Casillas related? Whats the common link?I descend from both famiilies.
Thanks,
Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:36:17 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
>
> I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
>
> The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
>
> To me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the families from los Altos came out of the families that were the aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists.
>
> I'm going to repost a comment I made above:
> I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
>
> Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
>
> Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
>
> Scientific Study
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
>
> Second independant Study
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSy…
> .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>
> The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
>
> Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to Nordvert's Haplogroup Predictor:
> R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1 =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2% R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
>
> There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however this is not the family that we are talking about.
>
> I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
>
> Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic descendants...
> http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> ysearch user:FWRJ5
>
> In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
>
> Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and involved of the Orden of Santiago.
>
> It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
>
> There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
One My uncles has a circulatory problem that has a much higher incident rate in the jewish population. my in laws are from san miguel el alto and they have a skin disorder by they I mean my mother in law sister in law some of my wifes cousins and her brother get these skin discolorations, small blotches. This is predominantly a jewish genetic disorder. There are other stories in los altos that point to a jewish influence in certain families. The lomeli romo perez and franco.
------Original Message------
From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
Sent: Feb 27, 2010 6:09 PM
Hello R.A. Ricci, my family is from el Valle de Guadalupe. Is this docmented? Neither of my grandfathers r.i.p never said anything about this...please point me in the right direction...
Sounds like Psoraisis? or Ezcema?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 02:55:06 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> One My uncles has a circulatory problem that has a much higher incident rate in the jewish population. my in laws are from san miguel el alto and they have a skin disorder by they I mean my mother in law sister in law some of my wifes cousins and her brother get these skin discolorations, small blotches. This is predominantly a jewish genetic disorder. There are other stories in los altos that point to a jewish influence in certain families. The lomeli romo perez and franco.
> ------Original Message------
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
> Sent: Feb 27, 2010 6:09 PM
>
> Hello R.A. Ricci, my family is from el Valle de Guadalupe. Is this docmented? Neither of my grandfathers r.i.p never said anything about this...please point me in the right direction...
It's called Fanconi Anemia. here' a link to info about it.
http://www.mazornet.com/genetics/fanconi_anemia.htm
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
>
> Sounds like Psoraisis? or Ezcema?
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 02:55:06 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>>
>> One My uncles has a circulatory problem that has a much higher incident rate in the jewish population. my in laws are from san miguel el alto and they have a skin disorder by they I mean my mother in law sister in law some of my wifes cousins and her brother get these skin discolorations, small blotches. This is predominantly a jewish genetic disorder. There are other stories in los altos that point to a jewish influence in certain families. The lomeli romo perez and franco.
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
>> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>> Sent: Feb 27, 2010 6:09 PM
>>
>> Hello R.A. Ricci, my family is from el Valle de Guadalupe. Is this docmented? Neither of my grandfathers r.i.p never said anything about this...please point me in the right direction...
Que tal primo! Muchas de las tradiciones judias son evoluciones de traditiones del meditereanio o de los orignes de Iraq y Eypto.
Que tal primo! Muchas de las tradiciones judias son evoluciones de traditiones del meditereanio o de los orignes de Iraq y Eypto.
If you trace all humanity we all originate in the Middle East and then from Africa.
Regards,Danel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:03:47 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Que tal primo! Muchas de las tradiciones judias son evoluciones de traditiones del meditereanio o de los orignes de Iraq y Eypto.
The very catholic that you state is a clue to altenos being descendents of conversos. Our families made every attempt to not be looked upon aS falling back. This happened while some jewish traditions were kept but looked upon within the family as family traditions.
As to the french line that we have from the rodriguez de hijar line it is because we descend from Robin (Robert or Robinete) Bracamont and he was french.
I am writing on my blackberry and I do not have my data in front of me so I hope I do not lead you astray.
Robin was married to ines mendoza who was from the hurtado de mendoza family. I have worked on both of the ancestral lines and he is definitely french and her family came from an area of spain that definitely had a strong jewish influence. The names of areas have jewish origin if I remember correctly. I have documented the moorish lines.
I have been sidetracked lately but hopefully will be finished with my present projects in time to finish this article on these connections next year.
Many genealogists claimed that the Perestrello family was jewish. I also mistakenly wrote that they were jewish but deeper research proved that this was not true.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Gomezlucero, Irma"
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:58:06
To: 'research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org'
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos regarding the
Hurtado de Mendozas & Perez-Franco Research Digest, Vol 49, Issue 23
Hello "My Genes",
Having descended from the Hurtado de Mendozas and the Perez, Franco families from Los Altos, I would be very interested in this documentation. These are my father's lines, and although we have always been very Catholic, I have noticed a few small things that might be Sephardic in general.
I have also read the chapter from "Retonos..." where Mariano dispels Jewish and French lines. In my research, I have never ran across French names, Altenos are a very closed society--remember: is mejor conocido que por conocer--proper Altenas would never run off and marry a French soldier, plus the French were never known to be in our area. I vaguely recall Mariano's references to these people being a very Catholic society (remember la Cristiada), and he did give examples of why this society could not be Jewish. Possibly we were Jewish, but it was too long ago to really matter in everyday life.
At any rate, I would be interested in this documentation you have run across. I do recall that the Perez came from Huelva, Espana, and the former prime minister of Israel, Shimon Perez. That's about it.
Thanks,
Irma Gomez gtz
N. Calif.
1. Re: mixture of clans (mygenes2000@yahoo.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:47:51 +0000
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] mixture of clans
Message-ID:
<942282224-1266972290-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-160926564…>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Most of The first families from jalisco were related through the hernandez de hijar and the hurtado de mendoza and there is clear documentation showing at least 4 moor lines and other jewish (marano) lines this is not an opinion, there is clear evidence of this. The mountains where the mendoza family came from was originally a jewish area. Many of The families that the mendoza married into in Castilla also originated from this jewish area. I also believe that the perez that married into the francos to form the perez franco de paredes family were from the jewish perestrello family of portugal this family was originally the Pallestrelli family of Genoa. This last bit of info is the only info here that has not been clearly documented yet and some people disagree with my opinion of where the perez came from.
I repeat, the connection to the hernandez de hijar and mendoza lines to jewish and moorish ancestors have been documented
*************
I'm asking help in finding this film
source: sagrada mitra 167980 film - record # 301
page 64 Familysearch online program
That film number seems to be here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-44343-91?cc=1874591&wc…
which is on:
Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic...Church Records, 1590-1979GuadalajaraDiócesis de GuadalajaraMatrimonios 1690-1695, 1707, 1709
Don't know if contains the record you are looking for though.
thank you so much.
it's been making me crazy!
Linda
Katy had indexed that record at http://guadalajaradispensas.tumblr.com/post/60962423153/matrimonios-169…
566 joseph roman & josefa cid caldera / jerez *tree 570
The record is at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-45123-87
thank you
mystery solved.
Linda
I was looking at some old postings on nuestro ranchos and saw that Irma Gomez Lucero and John Gonzalez both descend from people from Los Portales Jalisco.
My direct paternal family comes from Los Portales. I visited the ranch in August, during my summer vacation. During that stay in Jalos, I presented my genealogy book, Los Gutierrez del Rancho El Molino. As I found during my research, these Gutierrez from El Molino are the same that lived in Los Portales for many centuries. I could essentially change the title of the book to "Los Gutierrez de Los Portales" and still be accurate. Saludos.
Sergio Gutierrez
Sergio,
Do you have any Gutierrez in Ocotlan and surrounding areas? I would like
to buy your book but would have to wait till next August/September as I am
presently a missionary with few funds. I kind of hope to have a branch
leading to your tree.
Esther Jordan Lopez
esther.ordan@myldsmail.net
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 6:23 PM, wrote:
> My direct paternal family comes from Los Portales. I visited the ranch in
> August, during my summer vacation. During that stay in Jalos, I presented
> my genealogy book, Los Gutierrez del Rancho El Molino. As I found during my
> research, these Gutierrez from El Molino are the same that lived in Los
> Portales for many centuries. I could essentially change the title of the
> book to "Los Gutierrez de Los Portales" and still be accurate. Saludos.
>
> Sergio Gutierrez
He'll Sergio
The Gutierrez and Romo families from Los Portales intermarried over and over again even as many moved to Jalostotitlan. Many of these Gutierrez and Romos lived long lives so I was able to meet many of the great uncles and even some great great uncles.
my great great grandfather Eligio Romo Jimenez was married to Francisca Gutierrez Gonzalez. Eligio is the father of emeterio romo Gutierrez who was married to Serapia Franco Barba. My great grandfather Emeterio romo Gutierrez was kidnapped by Pancho Villa who gave him his freedom after he trained/broke that famous horse of his (Siete Leguas). Pancho Villa offered freedom to anyone that could train the horse and that was one thing that my great grandfather excelled at. my grandfather Hermenegildo Romo Franco and doctor Rito Romo Franco are sons of Emeterio y Serapia.
I believe I am related to you through Francisca Gutierrz Gonzalez.
I plan on ordering your book soon.
R.A.Ricci
Hello Sergio,
What college did you attend. I cousin of mine just texted me that you are his friend from college. If you are the same Sergio then the information I shared with you takes on an added significance.
R. A Ricci
This link has a 1769 map of the area of Huejuquilla and missiones:
More detailed map of 1769:
http://bibliotecadigital.ilce.edu.mx/sites/estados/libros/nayarit/html/…
"mesa de tonati" I know that "tonati" was a sacred idol to the indigenous Huicholes.
More interesting reading:
http://bibliotecadigital.ilce.edu.mx/sites/estados/libros/nayarit/html/…
http://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?pid=S0185-12762007000200003&script=…
This one has a number of old maps and a drawing of Moctezuma:
https://imagesonline.bl.uk/?service=search&action=do_quick_search&langu…
Does anyone have any information on Martin Enríquez (whose mother was Magdalena de Saldaña) and Isabel de Ulloa?
Does anyone have any information on Martin Enríquez (whose mother was Magdalena de Saldaña) and Isabel de Ulloa?
Queria compartir estos documentos para ver si este persona, Juan de Portugal, es el mismo que Capitian Juan de Portugal, fundador de Lagos:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-63397-39?cc=1874591&wc…
i'm going to read it to see what other geneaological info i can get from this.
Sanchez-Castellanos
Katy, excellent work, I did not Know that Nicolas was the owner of the Hacienda Santa Rosa de Viterbo and he was Captain too. This Capellania was for help his grandson. He was studying at the Seminary of Guadalajara and was son of Antonio de Escobedo y Valenzuela and Rosa Maria or Maria Rosa Sanchez-Castellanos Bañuelos owners of the Hacienda of Santa Teresa both in Monte Escobedo.
This Nicolas was the son of Juan Sanchez-Castellanos and Thomasina de Haro y Saucedo, here you can find the sons and daughters of Nicolas, the value of his properties. This was a hit for genealogy.
The title of Captain I understand was for being landlords because his brothers Lorenzo Sanchez-Castellanos and Joseph Sanchez-Castellanos were captains too in Jerez.
thanks for telling me about who his parents and siblings were. i didn't find that in the document, but i did find about some of his children's names and their spouses in the capellania.i also found out who were the parents and grand parents of teresa ramirez(she was the wife of nicolas's grandson thomas)
Sanchez-Castellanos
Katy, I think I have the most complete information of the sons, wives and grandsons of Nicolas and of course of his brothers and sisters , any question just contact me at franksanchezalvarez@gmail.com
Sanchez-Castellanos
Conclusion Captain Nicolas Sanchez Castellanos and his wife Maria de Bañuelos fonded the Capellania of Santa Rosa de Viterio in the land knowed in 1754 Hacienda of Santa Rosa and the Puesto (Ranch)of La Maza. Their son Florencio Sanchez Castellanos was born ab 1674, Vicente Sanchez Castellanos ab 1679, Sebastian ab 1681 so I can now afim that Nicolas Sanchez Castellanos de Haro was the son of Juan Sanchez Castellanos (widow of Jerez) and Thomasina de Haro y Saucedo(Tlaltenango).
There was another Nicolas Sanchez-Castellanos de Viera(born in 1668 in Tlaltenango) son of Joseph Sanchez Castellanos and Francisca de Viera married in Tlaltenango, Francisca died very soon and Joseph got married in Jerez with ???? Chavez y Bañuelos and lived in Tlalticualoya (today Los Cuervos, Susticacan).
By the moment there is a lack of information of Jerez between 1660 to 1745 to find the rest of the family Sanchez-Castellanos. I hope some day we could check them. In that time, they lived near Jerez, Joseph Sanchez-Castellanos de Haro, Rodrigo Sanchez-Castellanos (son of Manuel Sanchez-Castellanos de Haro), Lorenzo Sanchez-Castellanos de Haro, Maria Sanchez-Castellanos de Haro and Nicolas Sanchez-Castellanos de Haro that were born near Tepechitlan, Zacatecas. ManuelSanchez Castellanos de Haro family lived in Tepechitlan, Jerez and some in Monte Escobedo.
thanks for explaining that to me, also did you get my email.
i know for sure that i'm a dsecendant of nicolas sanchez castellanos through his son florencio's line.
Sanchez-Castellanos
No, I did not. Just a correction the Hacienda of Sta Theresa and La Maza were the lands that Nicolas Sanchez-Castellanos gave them to fund the Capellania.
The Hacienda of Sta Rosa according the document was gotten ab 1689 so the Hacienda of Sta Theresa was founded after, the owners were Antonio de Escobedo y Valenzuela and Rosa Sanchez-Castellanos Bañuelos (daugther of Nicolas).
I do not know were they live before 1689 but my grandgrand.....father Sebastian Sanchez-Castellanos said that he was from The PARAJE (unknown for me), maybe this documents are of Jerez or Colotlan (missing documents or no filmed).
Sanchez-Castellanos
This is the second part....good luck!!!!
Sanchez-Castellanos
Sorry, here is the second part.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-46063-18?cc=1874591&wc…
thanks for the link juan francisco- also do you happen to know who maria banuelos's parents are?
Sanchez-Castellanos
The wife was Maria Bañuelos Benavides daughter of Diego Bañuelos and María Benavides that lived in Teul de Gonzalez Ortega she was born in 1652in Teul and died in 1728 in Monte Escobedo one year after Nicolas´death(1727). I couldn´t find the married file because there aren´t files of that time. I was readind that in the Reforma´s war of Benito Juarez a person lastnamed Rojas from Tepatitlan was destroyed some files of the church.
Sanchez-Castellanos
Jose Domingo Sanchez Reza in the name of his brother Jose Antonio Sanchez Reza ask for the Capellania in 1806 when Juan Julio Macario Sanchez-Castellanos quit. They said that they were grandsons of Thomas Sanchez-Castellanos. Here the strange is that his mother was Maria de la Asuncion Sanchez-Castellanos daugther of Thomas, but they do not explain who the father was. Jose Domingo was a very important person in the church of Guadalajara, in 1820 was elected as Deputy for Guadalajara.Her brother Jose Antonio helped the people to join for gettin the independence of Mexico in San Antonio de los Adobes and was discovered.
just wondering but do you know who antonio escobedo's parents names are?
Okay so I am a decedent of the Lomelin. Jose Antonio
Castellano married Maria Petra Leonor Lomelin in Ocotlan on August 31, 1774. They ended up moving to Yuriria Guanajuato ( That is where I am from). So most of the Lomelin tree is already done but I kinda got stuck in the Castellano. I have looked it up in the website and the only castellanos I see are the Sanchez Castellanos but I don't think they are the same one. Antonio
was born October 17, 1751 in the Estancia de San Juan de Dios, La Barca
and his parents were Agustin Castellano and Rosa Maria Diaz. I found
their marriage which was on August 12, 1749 but it doesn't state their
parents and the Informacion Matrimonial of that year is too damage to
read. So I decided to try and find them through the baptisms. The only Agustin that I found that fitted in the timeline was one born on March 17, 1725 in Los Rios and I found a Rosa Maria Diaz
that was born in la Estancia de San Juan de Dios on April 5, 1722. Agustin
parents ( according to the baptism) are Agustin Castellano and Maria de
la Encarnacion. (No last name). Here it is when I kinda start to hit
dead ends. Agustin and Maria had another child in 1732 and there is a
marriage of Agustin and Maria Arriniega on February 20 1703 in Ocotlan,
is this them? If this is them then the parents of Agustin are Pedro Castellano and Ana Comparar. Pedro and Ana got married March 3, 1669 in Ocotlan. It does not list the parents of Pedro but i think they might be Nicolas Castellanos and Magdalena Gutierrez. The parents of Ana are Pedro Comparan and Leonor Ayala. any one know anything about this castellanos and the Comparan?
Hi Jose my name is Louisa Arredondo my grandfather was Bruno Ramires Lomellin could we have a connection? Could you please email me so we can compare notes @ rafaa69@yahoo.com
Thank you
On Monday, October 14, 2013 5:20 PM, Jose Lopez wrote:
Okay so I am a decedent of the Lomelin. Jose Antonio
Castellano married Maria Petra Leonor Lomelin in Ocotlan on August 31, 1774. They ended up moving to Yuriria Guanajuato ( That is where I am from). So most of the Lomelin tree is already done but I kinda got stuck in the Castellano. I have looked it up in the website and the only castellanos I see are the Sanchez Castellanos but I don't think they are the same one. Antonio
was born October 17, 1751 in the Estancia de San Juan de Dios, La Barca
and his parents were Agustin Castellano and Rosa Maria Diaz. I found
their marriage which was on August 12, 1749 but it doesn't state their
parents and the Informacion Matrimonial of that year is too damage to
read. So I decided to try and find them through the baptisms. The only Agustin that I found that fitted in the timeline was one born on March 17, 1725 in Los Rios and I found a Rosa Maria Diaz
that was born in la Estancia de San Juan de Dios on April 5, 1722. Agustin
parents ( according to the baptism) are Agustin Castellano and Maria de
la Encarnacion. (No last name). Here it is when I kinda start to hit
dead ends. Agustin and Maria had another child in 1732 and there is a
marriage of Agustin and Maria Arriniega on February 20 1703 in Ocotlan,
is this them? If this is them then the parents of Agustin are Pedro Castellano and Ana Comparar. Pedro and Ana got married March 3, 1669 in Ocotlan. It does not list the parents of Pedro but i think they might be Nicolas Castellanos and Magdalena Gutierrez. The parents of Ana are Pedro Comparan and Leonor Ayala. any one know anything about this castellanos and the Comparan?
Hi Jose so your Lomelin connects in the 1700, Is there a way I could see you tree on the Lomelin side?
On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 12:36 AM, louisa arredondo wrote:
Hi Jose my name is Louisa Arredondo my grandfather was Bruno Ramires Lomellin could we have a connection? Could you please email me so we can compare notes @ rafaa69@yahoo.com
Thank you
On Monday, October 14, 2013 5:20 PM, Jose Lopez wrote:
Okay so I am a decedent of the Lomelin. Jose Antonio
Castellano married Maria Petra Leonor Lomelin in Ocotlan on August 31, 1774. They ended up moving to Yuriria Guanajuato ( That is where I am from). So most of the Lomelin tree is already done but I kinda got stuck in the Castellano. I have looked it up in the website and the only castellanos I see are the Sanchez Castellanos but I don't think they are the same one. Antonio
was born October 17, 1751 in the Estancia de San Juan de Dios, La Barca
and his parents were Agustin Castellano and Rosa Maria Diaz. I found
their marriage which was on August 12, 1749 but it doesn't state their
parents and the Informacion Matrimonial of that year is too damage to
read. So I decided to try and find them through the baptisms. The only Agustin that I found that fitted in the timeline was one born on March 17, 1725 in Los Rios and I found a Rosa Maria Diaz
that was born in la Estancia de San Juan de Dios on April 5, 1722. Agustin
parents ( according to the baptism) are Agustin Castellano and Maria de
la Encarnacion. (No last name). Here it is when I kinda start to hit
dead ends. Agustin and Maria had another child in 1732 and there is a
marriage of Agustin and Maria Arriniega on February 20 1703 in Ocotlan,
is this them? If this is them then the parents of Agustin are Pedro Castellano and Ana Comparar. Pedro and Ana got married March 3, 1669 in Ocotlan. It does not list the parents of Pedro but i think they might be Nicolas Castellanos and Magdalena Gutierrez. The parents of Ana are Pedro Comparan and Leonor Ayala. any one know anything about this castellanos and the Comparan?
Hi Jose my name is Louisa Arredondo my grandfather was Bruno Ramires Lomellin could we have a connection? Could you please email me so we can compare notes @ rafaa69@yahoo.com
Thank you
On Monday, October 14, 2013 5:20 PM, Jose Lopez wrote:
Okay so I am a decedent of the Lomelin. Jose Antonio
Castellano married Maria Petra Leonor Lomelin in Ocotlan on August 31, 1774. They ended up moving to Yuriria Guanajuato ( That is where I am from). So most of the Lomelin tree is already done but I kinda got stuck in the Castellano. I have looked it up in the website and the only castellanos I see are the Sanchez Castellanos but I don't think they are the same one. Antonio
was born October 17, 1751 in the Estancia de San Juan de Dios, La Barca
and his parents were Agustin Castellano and Rosa Maria Diaz. I found
their marriage which was on August 12, 1749 but it doesn't state their
parents and the Informacion Matrimonial of that year is too damage to
read. So I decided to try and find them through the baptisms. The only Agustin that I found that fitted in the timeline was one born on March 17, 1725 in Los Rios and I found a Rosa Maria Diaz
that was born in la Estancia de San Juan de Dios on April 5, 1722. Agustin
parents ( according to the baptism) are Agustin Castellano and Maria de
la Encarnacion. (No last name). Here it is when I kinda start to hit
dead ends. Agustin and Maria had another child in 1732 and there is a
marriage of Agustin and Maria Arriniega on February 20 1703 in Ocotlan,
is this them? If this is them then the parents of Agustin are Pedro Castellano and Ana Comparar. Pedro and Ana got married March 3, 1669 in Ocotlan. It does not list the parents of Pedro but i think they might be Nicolas Castellanos and Magdalena Gutierrez. The parents of Ana are Pedro Comparan and Leonor Ayala. any one know anything about this castellanos and the Comparan?
Antonio was the son of the Cap. Juan de Escobedo and Teresa Ruiz de Esparza, he was the husbad of Maria Rosa Sanchez-castellanos y Bañuelos, their sons were Anselmo, Juan, Maria de San Pablo, Francisca and Juana.
are you sure about that? he seems to young to be their son
There were four Juan de Escobedo at the end of the 1600´s and the begin of 1700´s
Juan de Escobedo y Cobarrubias married Teresa Ruiz de ESparza (AKA Teresa de Ulloa) married in 1669 in Teocaltiche,Jal.
Juan de EScobedo el mozo married Melchora de Cabrera.
Juan de Escobedo natural son of Nicolas de Escobedo
Juan de Escobedo y Sanchez-Castellanos son of Antonio de Escobedo and Maria Rosa Sanchez-Castellanos.
Antonio de Escobedo the heritor of Juan de Escobedo and when Melchora de Cabrera died says "parienta" instead of mother.
Sebastian de Escobedo y Esparza born ab 1676
maria Rosa Sanchez-Castellanos born ab 1675.
Juan de Escobedo y Cobarrubias was son of Francisco de Escobedo y Diaz. In 1669 Juan de Escobedo y Cobarrubias got married with Teresa de Ulloa (Teresa Ruiz de Esparza) in 1669, but ab 1684 Ana de Escobedo y Cabrera daughter of Juan de Escobedo and melchora de Cabrera got married with lorenzo de Ulloa Flores. So if the date is correct Juan de Escobedo el mozo had to be son of a previuos marriage of Juan de Escobedo y Diaz.
Juan de Escobedo had a brother called Fernando de Escobedo who lived in Tlaltenango.
Juan de Escobedo el mozo died ab 1691 and Juan de Escobedo y Diaz died in 1693 and said that his wife in that moment was Maria Villegas.
-----Original Message-----
From: mimilozano@somosprimos.com [mailto:mimilozano@somosprimos.com]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:56 PM
To: mimilozano@aol.com
Subject: Somos Primos June 2015
Please co
In 1606, one of my ancestors (Joan de Angon) traveled from Brihuelas, Spain to Mexico on the Pasajeros de Indias list.
In the PARS website:
I can recognize a word or a name here and there, but that kind of handwriting is really hard to read. Even If I knew where the name of the ship is in the document, I think it would be hard to me to read or to recognize as a word.
Good luck with your search,
Victoriano Navarro
Saludos de nuevo mi Srs:
A cuanto esta linea mia tengo mi sexto bisabuelo
via mi linea paterna, Pedro Leonel Gomez de Cervantes
tambien Leonel de Cervantes hijo de Pedro Antonio
Hola Daniel
Yo estoy preguntándome si tu Leonel sera el mismo al que en mis archivos le faltan padres.
Ana Maria Leonel de Cervantes,
Casada el 19 de mayo 1755, Santa Veracruz, Distrito Federal, con Jose Santos Del Valle, con decendencia
María Ignacia Santos Del Valle Cervantes,
Casada el 21 de agosto 1774, Asuncion, Mexico, Distrito Federal, Mexico, con
Manuel José Rincón Gallardo Calderón, 1er Marques de Guadalupe Gallardo , Caballero de Santiago , Vice Conde Casa Gallardo (1810), nacido en 1758, Ciénega de Mata, Ojuelos, Nueva Galicia, Aguas Calientes Mexico, bautizado el 8 de junio 1758, Villa de Santa María de Los Lagos, fallecido en 1804, enterrado (a la edad de 46 años)
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M61903-3 Source Film Number: 35850)
Jose Carlos Guillen Rincon Gallardo
Hola don José Carlos:
Si podía enviarme los datos de los Leonel Cervantes o Gómez de Cervantes que sospechas que podía ayudarme en mi búsqueda a mi correo personal. Todavía hay muchas preguntas a cuanto mi línea Gómez de Cervantes. Vincularon con los Vélez o Véliz de la Torre quienes también son parientes de los Rincón-Gallardo por medio de los García de Rojas.
María Josefa García de Rojas casó Francisco Xavier Pablo Rincón-Gallardo, V Mayorazgo de Ciénega de Mata o del Rincón el 22 de febrero de 1727 en dicha hacienda. Mi padre viene de esta línea de los Gómez de Cervantes que vincularon con los Vélez de la Torre primos del Marqués.
Existe vínculo entre mis padres mediante los Rincón Gallardo. La abuela materna del cuarto mayorazgo ya citado era la Sra. doña Juana Rincón de Ortega, II Mayorazga de Ciénega del Rincón o Mata. La susodicha era madre (entre otros) de María Rincón-Gallardo quien casó al capitán y Alcalde Mayor de Aguascalientes (y no me recuerdo si también era Alférez Real) don Buenaventura de Arce y Castilla el 12 de noviembre de 1678 en el Sagrario de Aguascalientes dichos antepasados directos de mi madre.
Aquí te proporciono algunos datos personales de su antepasado el I marqués de Guadalupe-Gallardo:
Alcalde Mayor de la Villa Santa María de los Lagos
Regidor de Aguas Calientes en 1791
Coronel del Regimiento de San Carlos, de San Luis de Potosí.
Nació - Hacienda de Ciénega, Aguascalientes, Nueva Galicia
I Marqués de Guadaupe Gallardo
Vizconde de Casa Gallardo
VI Mayorazgo de Ciénega de Mata
Caballero de Santiago
Recibe un saludo afectuoso y gracias antemano
Daniel Méndez-Camino
Justamente Daniel
Ese es el motivo por lo cual mencione lo anterior, pero lo que no se es si Ana Leonel Cervantes es Gomez oh no, pues la tengo sin padres.
Y efectivamente también tengo en mi arbol a Antonio Vélez de la Torre
Antonio Vélez de la Torre.
Casado en 1670, San Luis Potosi, con Ines de Guzman, cual hija es
María Josefa Véliz de la Torre y Guzmán, nacida en 1672, bautizada el 3 de noviembre 1672, San Luis Potosí
Casada con Fernando García de Rojas y Martínez de Sotomayor, nacido el 4 de julio 1674, Real de San Matías, Sierra de Pinos, Nueva Galicia, bautizado el 14 de julio 1674, Capilla de Real de San Matías, Sierra de Pinos, Nueva Galicia, cual hija es
María Josefa García de Rojas y Véliz de Guzmán, nacida el 23 de noviembre 1712, San Jose Ojuelos,
Casada el 22 de febrero 1727, San José de los Ojuelos, con Francisco Javier Rincón Gallardo y Feijoo, nacido el 27 de enero 1710, Aguas Calientes Nueva Galicia Mexico, cual hijo es
José Antonio Rincón Gallardo y García Rojas, nacido el 9 de julio 1730, Hacienda de San José de los Ojuelos, Nueva Galicia (hoy Aguascalientes), bautizado el 17 de julio 1730, Parroquia San Matías de la Sierra de Pinos, fallecido el 6 de junio 1807, Hacienda de San José de los Ojuelos, Nueva Galicia (hoy Aguascalientes), enterrado, Hacienda de San José de los Ojuelos, Nueva Galicia Mex Aguascalientes (a la edad de 76 años).
Casado el 9 de enero 1752, Sagrario Metropolitano, Ciudad de México, con Josefa Francisca Calderón Berrio, Condesa , nacida el 9 de octubre 1729, Ciudad de México, bautizada el 15 de octubre 1729, Sagrario Metropolitano, Ciudad de México
José Carlos Guillén Rincón Gallardo
Estimado José Carlos:
Lo siguiente viene de mis archivos y estudios personales:
Efectivamente la mujer de Joseph Santos del Valle originario de Sevilla, Andalucía en los Reinos de Castilla hijo de Pedro Melchor de los Santos y Ana María del Valle, era (bautizada) Ana María Macedonia Leonel Gómez de Cervantes (o Leonel de Cervantes) el 20 de septiembre de 1735 en la parroquia de la Santa Veracruz en la ciudad de México. Dichos casaron en la misma parroquia el 19 de mayo de 1755.
Ana María era hija de Juan Manuel Leonel Gómez de Cervantes y Ana María del Castillo éstos eran residentes en la parroquia de la Santa Veracruz (Guerrero Sureste) y bautizaron varios hijos en dicha parroquia.
Los susodichos casaron en la Santa Veracruz el 30 de agosto de 1732 donde menciona que Juan Manuel era de la ciudad de Santa Fée (no sé cual Santa Fe, supongo Santa Fe de Guanajuato?) y Ana María del Castillo era de Zacatlán, Puebla tuve un hermano que localizé su buatismo.
Juan Manuel era hijo de Manuel Leonel Gómez de Cervantes y Francisca Rodríguez casaron en el Sagrario Metropolitano el 13 de julio de 1693. Desfortunadamente su partida matrimonial no menciona sus padres. Sospecho los padres de este Manuel quien nacio hacia 1665 en la ciudad de México pero necesito comprobarlo. En otra nota todavía busco mi antepasado Joseph Leonel Gómez de Cervantes o Leonel de Cervantes estoy perdido en Guadalajara hacia 1675. Sospecho que era de la ciudad de México.
Ana María del Castillo era hija de Miguel de Castillo y Catarina de la Cruz vecinos de Puebla. Bautizaro a Nicolás el 23 de agosto de 1673 en San Francisco de Tepeaca en Puebla.
Ojalá estos datos te ayuda en tu búsqueda.
Daniel Méndez-Camino
Estimado Daniel
Creo que con estos datos, podremos avanzar, conozco a una persona que sabe mucho de los Cervantes
Como no tenia muchos datos que ofrecerle, no estaba en posibilidad de asistirnos.
Le voy a mandar tus apuntes y en cuanto me responda, te pongo su respuesta.
Mientras tanto te mando un caluroso saludo
José Carlos Guillén Rincón Gallardo
Daniel
Aquí te pongo lo poco que encontré en Family search
Ojala te ayude, aunque estoy casi seguro que ya buscaste por esos lares
1.
Joseph Cayetano Cervantes Araujo christening:
Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950 03 Dec 1683 — SANTA MARIA DE LOS LAGOS,LAGOS DE MORENO,JALISCO,MEXICO
parents:
Nicolas De Cervantes, Franca. De Araujo
2.
Josepha Ageda Masariegas Servantes christening:
Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950 16 Mar 1677 — SAGRARIO METROPOLITANO,GUADALAJARA,JALISCO,MEXICO
parents:
Francisco Masariegas, Ines De Servantes
3.
Jhoseph Serbantes Cardenas christening:
Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950 02 Jun 1678 — SANTA MARIA DE LOS LAGOS,LAGOS DE MORENO,JALISCO,MEXICO
parents:
Jhoseph De Serbantes, Jhosepha De Cardenas
4.
Jhosepha Serbantes Torres christening:
Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950 03 Jun 1680 — SANTA MARIA DE LOS LAGOS,LAGOS DE MORENO,JALISCO,MEXICO
parents:
Jn. De Serbantes, Jhosepha De La Torres
5.
Josepha Zervantes christening:
Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950 08 Apr 1680 — AHUALULCO DE MERCADO,JALISCO,MEXICO
parents:
Lonel De Zervantes, Maria Magdanela
https://www.familysearch.org/search/search/index/record-search-advanced…
No desesperes seguro que va aparecer el pariente Joseph !
José Carlos Guillén Rincón Gallardo
Hola Daniel
Aquí te paso esto esperando sea de alguna utilidad con lo dicho
Juan Gutiérrez de Altamirano
(c.1560), casó con María de Ircio y Velasco (ver árbol genealógico; hija del virrey de la Nueva España don Luis de Velasco y Castilla y Mendoza (1534-1617), y de María de ircio y Mendoza). Fueron padres de
VII. Fernando de Altamirano y Velasco (c.1589-1657), casó con María de Velasco e Ibarra (ver nota 5). En 1616 recibió el título de 1er. Conde de Santiago de Calimaya. Fueron padres de 1ª) Luisa (b: en la Catedral de México, el 8-IX-1608), 2ª) María (b: 9-VIII-1612) y Juan (1616, que sigue).
VI. Juan de Altamirano y Velasco (1616-1661). Caballero de Santiago en 1625 y segundo Conde de Santiago de Calimaya. Casó con Luisa de Albornoz Legazpi y Acuña (ver nota 6). Fueron padres de
VII. Fernando de Altamirano y Legazpi (1640-1684; ver árbol genealógico), tercer Conde de Santiago. Bautizado en la Catedral de México el 1-III-1639/40. Murió el 5-VII-1684. Caso el 29-IX-1660, en la Catedral de México, con María Isabel de Villegas y Castilla (ver nota 7 y árbol genealógico). Fueron padres de 1°) Juan (1669, 4° Conde, casado con Teresa Hurtado de Mendoza, y padre del 5° Conde, Fernando Altamirano y Mendoza, que murió de niño) y 2°) Nicolás (1677, 6° Conde, que sigue).
VIII. Nicolás de Altamirano y Villegas (1675-1621, 6° Conde de Santiago de Calimaya). Bautizado en la Catedral de México el 22-II-1675. En 1704 heredó el título de marqués de Salinas al extinguirse la rama del hijo mayor del primer marqués. Casó el 14-IX-1704, en la Catedral de México, con María Gorráez Luna y Arellano (ver nota 8). Murió en 1721. Fueron padres de
IX. Juan Javier Joaquín de Altamirano y Gorráez (1710, 7° Conde de Santiago). El 21-VI-1732 casó, en la Catedral de México, con doña Ana Urrutia de Vergara Alfonso (1715-1739, ver nota 9). Fueron padres de
X. Juan Lorenzo de Altamirano y Urrutia (1733-1793, 8° Conde de Santiago). Nació en la Ciudad de México en 1733. Casó con doña Bárbara de Ovando y Rivadeneira (ver nota 10). Murió en 1793. Fueron padres de 1ª) María Isabel (1763, 10a. Condesa) y 2ª) Ana (1766, 11a. Condesa, que sigue).
XI. Doña Ana de Altamirano de y Ovando (1766), que nació el 29-VII-1766 en la Ciudad de México. Casó con Ignacio Leonel Gómez de Cervantes y Padilla (ver Cervantes), el 29 de abril de 1784. Al haber fallecido todos los miembros de la familia Altamirano, en 1802, doña Ana entró en posesión de los bienes y títulos de esta familia. Murió en 1809. El hijo mayor de don Ignacio y doña Ana, 1°) José María Cervantes y Altamirano, heredó el condado de Santiago de Calimaya y el marquesado de Salinas. Casó con Mariana de Michaus (1787-1811) en 1809 y tuvieron por hijo a José Juan Gómez de Cervantes y Michaus (1810-1874). Dos hijos más de don Ignacio y doña Ana fueron Miguel (casado con Joaquina Estanillo) y Rafael (casado con Manuela Ozta y Cotera)
José Carlos Guillén Rincón Gallardo
don Daniel:
I think that you may find the information you need in the following article:
don Jose Ignacio Davila Garibi
wrote an extensive expose on Comendador d. Leonel de Cervantes and his descendents published in the Memorias de la Academia Mexicana Genealogia y Heraldica no. 8 1949 pages 37-78
Christopher Barrios de Leon
Hola Daniel, en cuanto a tu ancestro Pedro Antonio Leonel de Cervantes, que dices es hijo de Cristóbal Leonel de Cervantes y Francisca Lomelí, te puedo decir que no he revisado la partida de matrimonio de 1709, pero se que Cristóbal Leonel de Cervantes es hijo de José Leonel de Cervantes y de Isabel Sánchez Carranza según una dispensa de matrimonio que encontré en el libro de Montejano Hilton en la página 396, acta 2047 de José Alberto Lozano y Alejandra María Cervantes. Ella es hija de Cristóbal Leonel de Cervantes y Francisca Lomelí.
En cuanto al matrimonio de Bartolomé Vélez de la Torre y Juana Manuela Plascencia Agúndiz; en el mismo libro de Montejano Hilton en la página 133 se encuentra la siguiente dispensa:
Cuquío, Jal. Diciembre 25 de 1716. Exp. 9.- Dispensa de cuarto grado de consanguinidad.- Bartolomé Vélez, español de 21 años de edad, originario y vecino de esta jurisdicción de San Felipe de Cuquío en la Hacienda de San Antonio de Tateposco, hijo legítimo de Juan Vélez, difunto y de Juana Sánchez de Porras; con Juana Manuela de Placencia, española de 15 años de edad, originaria y vecina de esta feligresía en el Río de Atenguillo, hija legítima de Jospeh de Placencia y María de Agundiz, ya difunta, vecinos de esta jurisdicción. Declaración de Matheo de Placencia: Que María de Ulloa, difunta madre que fué de María de Agundiz, difunta y Thomasa de Placencia, madre de Juana Sánchez de Porras, fueron primas hermanas, y que dicha María de Agundiz, madre que fué de dicha pretensa y Juana Sánchez de Porras, madre del pretenso, fueron primas segundas. Se otorgó la dispensa en la Ciudad de Guadalajara, en 8 de enero de 1717. 12 fojas.
Espero sea de tu ayuda lo anterior.
L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
Gracias por los datos Jorge. Ayuda bastante encontre varios otros en relacion a esta familia.
Daniel Méndez Camino
I have seen some in Jalpa but where else thanks
Hello,
Someone posted a comment of wanting Cervantes' for their tree. I have a few in my lineage. Look up Sandoval Family in Ancestry.com and use their search to find in my tree. If you rather I give you a list of them, contact me at ShivisM@msn.com
Shivis
I have some in my husband's tree. His father's paternal grandmother was Marciana Cervantes from Encarnacion Diaz in Jalisco. Her father was Ysac Cervantes, grandmother was Dorotea Cervantes, great-grandfather was Juan Jose Cerbantes, great-grandfather was Jose Cervantes.
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: ShivisM@msn.com
> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:07:11 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Cervantes
>
> Hello, Someone posted a comment of wanting Cervantes' for their tree. I have
> a few in my lineage. Look up Sandoval Family in Ancestry.com and use their
> search to find in my tree. If you rather I give you a list of them, contact
> me at ShivisM@msn.com Shivis
>
Here are some old maps of Ciudad Zacatecas por Bernardo De Portugal about year 1723:
Hello, everyone. I'm researching the Mena family. Our family comes from Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco.
Does your bisabuelo have any Siblings. Did you look up baptismal
Records? Who are the padrinos? Do you have his marriage record ?
His siblings are all half siblings from a different father, so their records were not helpful for his father's line. He married in the United States, and the record does not list his parents. He later had a church wedding in a Catholic church, and I'm hoping they will have more details.
I haven't been able to find a baptismal record yet - The oral history in our family is that he couldn't be baptized because he was illegitimate. I don't know if that is true though.
I'm ordering his alien registration file from the National Archives, so hopefully I'll find some kinds of clue there.
Indeed it can be very difficult to find the ancestors of an illegitimate child. If there are any male descendants of José Jesús Mena through a direct paternal line, I would recommend taking a Y-DNA test for him and posting the results at online databases. You may get a match from another branch of the family if they were also curious enough to take the same test.
Good luck with your search,
Victoriano Navarro
There have been many occasions where I have discovered the father of a illegitimate child. It sometimes takes a lot of work and luck. Sometimes the illegitimate offspring marry into the legitimate family and the truth comes out in marriage records, "informacion matrimonial", marriage dispensations. Sometimes I find the information in a baptismal record of a child where the illegitimate father uses his fathers last name when he baptized his child and sometimes gives the paternal grandfathers name. Sometimes I have found the information by following the descendancy of siblings. When following the descendancy of siblings you have to check their marriage records and baptismal records for clues. Sometimes a land dispute over inheritance will bring out information. Sometimes the illegitimate child will claim to be legitimate in some of their adult records and give the name of their biological father.
Though I have been successful at discovering the father on numerous occasions, I have also been unsuccessful at times. Sometimes my successes have come only after a lot of work and many years. Recently I found the legitimate father only after studying someone elses family tree because something seemed familiar to me. It turns out that I was unsuccessful in finding the records that I sought I my research but a sibling married many times and in one of his marriages a descendant worked on the family tree and he had information where the illegitimate son claimed to be legitimate and gave his fathers identity. In this case I was able to identify only because in my research I had identified the fathers surname even though I had been unsuccessful in identifying the father through my records.
R A Ricci
i'm confused so...