I would like information on Petronia Moctezuma. She is my direct line ancestor. I have very little information on her. I am just starting my search to learn more on her and her family.
Kelly
----- Original Message ----
From: mormonboy74
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:43:03 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
Ive done extensive research on the descendants of DOna Petra if anyone needs any info. -Daniel
Petronila de Moctezuma
Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in Mexico City, she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least about 90% had left the capital in order to be protected. Petronila de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico had to have been born somewhere else. It couldnt bee Aguascalientes. And Morelia wasnt found until 1579. So it must of have been Guadalajara or Durango or a place in Guanjuato that I can tremember th name of ther town it was found in 1542. Now about the Belista and Leonista contravarsy. These
papers are supposed to exist in the marriage of Petronila, she lists her genealogy to some extent. People have said she is the grandaughter of Moctezuma or the grtgrandaughter. No ones knows. She married in Mexico city, but I think she married somewhere else in el Estado of Mexico. around 1594.
This is the genealogy of the Belista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from Isabel de Moctezuma and Hernando Cortes)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
Dona Isabel de Moctezuma , Princesa de Mexico 1521 & Hernando Cortes
This is the genealogy of the Leonista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from only Leonor de Moctezuma, daughter of Moctezuma)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
Don Moctezuma II, Emperor of Mexico 1476
To my judgement according tot the Belistas Petronila is Princess. Put how can she be princess when she is the great granddaughter. The princess titles usually only goes up the grandchildren after that there usually bestowed a different title. Put again Im refering to European royalty. Put European and Mexican Nobility were fairly identitical. Mexican Nobility onlly ended in 1917, wasnt to much long ago. In tha past century the Nobility were the HAcendados or the wealthy landowners. They were minor nobles who were given land grants to haciendas. Some of my more recent ancestords
were Mariano del Camino (1853-1916) he was given a grant by Porfirio Diaz in 1899. There family also owned los angeles in Zacatecas, near Pinos. The good thing is when the Lds church launches there new site, we will be able to fina Petronilas marriage or even to Francisca her daughter and Lope Esparza if it even exists! All the microfilm will be able to be viewed online! -Well I hope this helps a bit. -Email me if you need something else. Primo Daniel
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Petronila de Moctezuma
Just a few clarifications.
The title or style "prince" exists in Spain only for the heir of the Crown,
being Prince of the Asturias, of Gerona and of Viana. The royal children are
titled "Infante" or "Infanta". Portugal followed a similar rule.
One thing is that people might be princes on their own because of their
belonging to a royal family (that would be the case of Isabel de Moctezuma)
and another that they have the title "Prince". Like in England, where the
royal children are princes and princesses but only the Prince of Wales and
the members of the royal family who are created a "Prince Royal" (yes, it's
confusing) actually bear that title, like princess Anne, who was made Royal
Princess by her mother the Queen.
France had "Princes of the Blood" (members of the royal family and families
connected by blood to royalty, like the Prince of Conti and the Prince of
Condé), but the heir to the crown was called "Dauphin", the royal males
"Monsieur" and the royal females "Madame".
Austrian members of the royal familiy are "Archdukes", regardless whether
they are children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. of an Austrian
Emperor, but they all are princes and princesses.
Plus generally calling "prince" royal children in Europe is fairly recent
(19th century).
Never heard of any of Moctezuma's children ever been called "Prince".
Actually, the spaniards would refer to Moctezuma II as the "Señor de
Mexico", although we know that he was an actual emperor because of his
dominions.
Mexican nobility was abolished not in 1917, but in 1826. Land owning has
never meant nobility in itself (eventhough practically all titled nobility
all over the world has at one point owned land). Mexican nobility was
limited to the titled nobility (those individuals who were entitled to use a
"Título de Castilla": counts and marqueses; a few viscounts, one baron and
one duke, plus some noble dignities like "Adelantado" and "Mariscal") and to
hijosdalgo, or hidalgos, which is the lowest level of nobility
(transmittable only through males, with a few exceptions), basis and origin
of all Spanish nobility but which does not imply a title.
Regards,
Hector
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez
Enviado el: Viernes, 19 de Octubre de 2007 12:42 p.m.
Para: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in Mexico City,
she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least about 90% had left the
capital in order to be protected. Petronila de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico
had to have been born somewhere else. It couldnt bee Aguascalientes. And
Morelia wasnt found until 1579. So it must of have been Guadalajara or
Durango or a place in Guanjuato that I can tremember th name of ther town it
was found in 1542. Now about the Belista and Leonista contravarsy. These
papers are supposed to exist in the marriage of Petronila, she lists her
genealogy to some extent. People have said she is the grandaughter of
Moctezuma or the grtgrandaughter. No ones knows. She married in Mexico city,
but I think she married somewhere else in el Estado of Mexico. around 1594.
This is the genealogy of the Belista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from Isabel de Moctezuma and Hernando Cortes)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
Dona Isabel de Moctezuma , Princesa de Mexico 1521 & Hernando Cortes
This is the genealogy of the Leonista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from only Leonor de Moctezuma, daughter of
Moctezuma)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
Don Moctezuma II, Emperor of Mexico 1476
To my judgement according tot the Belistas Petronila is Princess. Put how
can she be princess when she is the great granddaughter. The princess titles
usually only goes up the grandchildren after that there usually bestowed a
different title. Put again Im refering to European royalty. Put European and
Mexican Nobility were fairly identitical. Mexican Nobility onlly ended in
1917, wasnt to much long ago. In tha past century the Nobility were the
HAcendados or the wealthy landowners. They were minor nobles who were given
land grants to haciendas. Some of my more recent ancestords
were Mariano del Camino (1853-1916) he was given a grant by Porfirio Diaz in
1899. There family also owned los angeles in Zacatecas, near Pinos. The good
thing is when the Lds church launches there new site, we will be able to
fina Petronilas marriage or even to Francisca her daughter and Lope Esparza
if it even exists! All the microfilm will be able to be viewed online! -Well
I hope this helps a bit. -Email me if you need something else. Primo Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Petronila de Moctezuma
Just a note...
I don't believe Petronila would be marrying about 1594, because that
would be about when her daughter, Francisca, should have been marrying
Lope Ruis de Esparza. Those couple's first few children are said to
have been born in the 1590s.
Of course, I haven't found hard evidence on this...but I would tend to
agree with those dates because they fit the picture. For example,
Salvador Ruis de Esparsa and Maria Vielma would have to have been born
about then to be married circa 1618.
Thanks,
Connie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez
Date: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>
> Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in
> Mexico City, she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least
> about 90% had left the capital in order to be protected. Petronila
> de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico had to have been born somewhere
> else. It couldnt bee Aguascalientes. And Morelia wasnt found until
> 1579. So it must of have been Guadalajara or Durango or a place in
> Guanjuato that I can tremember th name of ther town it was found in
> 1542. Now about the Belista and Leonista contravarsy. These
> papers are supposed to exist in the marriage of Petronila, she
> lists her genealogy to some extent. People have said she is the
> grandaughter of Moctezuma or the grtgrandaughter. No ones knows.
> She married in Mexico city, but I think she married somewhere else
> in el Estado of Mexico. around 1594.
>
> This is the genealogy of the Belista beliefs.
> (The people who believe she is from Isabel de Moctezuma and
> Hernando Cortes)
>
> DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
> Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
> Dona Isabel de Moctezuma , Princesa de Mexico 1521 & Hernando Cortes
>
> This is the genealogy of the Leonista beliefs.
> (The people who believe she is from only Leonor de Moctezuma,
> daughter of Moctezuma)
>
> DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
> Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
> Don Moctezuma II, Emperor of Mexico 1476
>
> To my judgement according tot the Belistas Petronila is Princess.
> Put how can she be princess when she is the great granddaughter.
> The princess titles usually only goes up the grandchildren after
> that there usually bestowed a different title. Put again Im
> refering to European royalty. Put European and Mexican Nobility
> were fairly identitical. Mexican Nobility onlly ended in 1917,
> wasnt to much long ago. In tha past century the Nobility were the
> HAcendados or the wealthy landowners. They were minor nobles who
> were given land grants to haciendas. Some of my more recent
> ancestords
> were Mariano del Camino (1853-1916) he was given a grant by
> Porfirio Diaz in 1899. There family also owned los angeles in
> Zacatecas, near Pinos. The good thing is when the Lds church
> launches there new site, we will be able to fina Petronilas
> marriage or even to Francisca her daughter and Lope Esparza if it
> even exists! All the microfilm will be able to be viewed online! -
> Well I hope this helps a bit. -Email me if you need something else.
> Primo Daniel
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
> scramble challenge with star power.
> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_…
Petronila de Moctezuma
Youre Right! For some reason I was thinking of Francisca Gabay! or Francisca Moctezuma, some state she didnt take her fathers name? Who know we dont ave any evidence. -Daniel
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Petronila de Moctezuma
Thanks for the information. It is exciting about the indexing program. It will open up so many new avenues for us all. It wil be nice to work from home or wherever one is. I look forward to learning so much more on my ancestors.
Right now it seems that one mystery is solved and we find two more.
Kelly
----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel Mendez
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:41:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in Mexico City, she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least about 90% had left the capital in order to be protected. Petronila de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico had to have been born somewhere else. It couldnt bee Aguascalientes. And Morelia wasnt found until 1579. So it must of have been Guadalajara or Durango or a place in Guanjuato that I can tremember th name of ther town it was found in 1542. Now about the Belista and Leonista contravarsy. These
papers are supposed to exist in the marriage of Petronila, she lists her genealogy to some extent. People have said she is the grandaughter of Moctezuma or the grtgrandaughter. No ones knows. She married in Mexico city, but I think she married somewhere else in el Estado of Mexico. around 1594.
This is the genealogy of the Belista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from Isabel de Moctezuma and Hernando Cortes)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
Dona Isabel de Moctezuma , Princesa de Mexico 1521 & Hernando Cortes
This is the genealogy of the Leonista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from only Leonor de Moctezuma, daughter of Moctezuma)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
Dona Leonor de Moctezuma, Princesa de MExico 1535
Don Moctezuma II, Emperor of Mexico 1476
To my judgement according tot the Belistas Petronila is Princess. Put how can she be princess when she is the great granddaughter. The princess titles usually only goes up the grandchildren after that there usually bestowed a different title. Put again Im refering to European royalty. Put European and Mexican Nobility were fairly identitical. Mexican Nobility onlly ended in 1917, wasnt to much long ago. In tha past century the Nobility were the HAcendados or the wealthy landowners. They were minor nobles who were given land grants to haciendas. Some of my more recent ancestords
were Mariano del Camino (1853-1916) he was given a grant by Porfirio Diaz in 1899. There family also owned los angeles in Zacatecas, near Pinos. The good thing is when the Lds church launches there new site, we will be able to fina Petronilas marriage or even to Francisca her daughter and Lope Esparza if it even exists! All the microfilm will be able to be viewed online! -Well I hope this helps a bit. -Email me if you need something else. Primo Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Petronila Moctezuma
I have researched her ancestry and looked at all the different arguements.
The first fact is that she is a descendent of Moctezuma.
The second fact is that she is listed as a princess, a title which only goes to daughters and granddaughters.
The third fact is that these two facts in combination were well regarded to be true at the time that she was still alive and that these facts were not disputed.
The fourth fact is that the latest attempts to connect her by many genealogists have mistakes in them. They confuse two leonores or overlook info.
The line that John Schmal has on the internet is incorrect. That is a fact not an opinion, and I informed him of it one day when I met him at the library in west los angeles. He thought it was open to debate. I wrote down his error but I do not have it in front of me right now. OneI mistake in a line throws the whole descendency line off.
I strongly believe that Ines Moctezuma, daughter of Pedro Moctezuma(son of Moctezuma II) is nicknamed Petronila after her father and is the same Petronila married to Martin Navarro.
R.A.Ricci
Petronila Moctezuma
R.A.,
As a descendant of Petronila, I would like to see any original documents that you (or any other member of the group) are aware where Petronila is identified directly or indirectly as 'princesa', or by phrases such as: 'to be of common knowledge that she is grandaughter of Moctezuma..." etc. I've read that such documentation exists, but I have never actually seen it.
Jaime
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.A.Ricci"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:49:34 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila Moctezuma
I have researched her ancestry and looked at all the different arguements.
The first fact is that she is a descendent of Moctezuma.
The second fact is that she is listed as a princess, a title which only goes to daughters and granddaughters.
The third fact is that these two facts in combination were well regarded to be true at the time that she was still alive and that these facts were not disputed.
The fourth fact is that the latest attempts to connect her by many genealogists have mistakes in them. They confuse two eleonors or overlook info.
The line that John Schmal has on the internet is incorrect. That is a fact not an opinion, and I informed him of it one day when I met him at the library in west los angeles. He thought it was open to debate. I wrote down his error but I do not have it in front of me right now. I mstake in a line throws the whole descendency line off.
I strongly believe that Ines Moctezuma, daughter of Pedro Moctezuma(son of Moctezuma II) is nicknamed Petronila after her father and is the same Petronila married to Martin Navarro.
R.A.Ricci
Petronila Moctezuma
I dont think this is possible, Ines was daughter of Moctezuma not Pedro. Ines born ca. 1509 and died on November 1520.
Pedro was a half sister of Ines. He was born ca. 1511 and also died on June 1520. Many of the Aztec royals died in 1520.
I strongly support the Leonor claim but like you said people confuse this line beause there are 3 or 4 Leonor Moctezuma in the
family. One claim, Petronila is descended from Isabel and Hernan Cortes. The second, is she comes from Leonor and Valderrama and
the third is she is daughter of Leonor and Valderrama is daughter of Isabel and Hernan Cortes who is daughter of the emperor.
I have also heard of a document that had existed in the 1700s stating how Petronila is descended from Moxtezuma. But by now it may be lost
in the Archivo General de la Nacion or some old Library or in some building. -Daniel Camino
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Petronila Moctezuma
I am embarrassed to say that I did not even check my notes before writing such a definitive statement. I went back and looked over my notes. In my notes I have written down how the two Leonors are not likely to be the mothers of Petronila. I did not know about the other Leoners. My notes don’t have Ines as Petronila, but as the possible mother of Petronila. In my notes I have written down that taken into consideration what we do know about Petronila, the fact that she was considered a granddaughter of Moctezuma II, that she had been referred to as a princess, I have written in my notes that it was most likely that she was a daughter of Pedro Moctezuma.
I am sorry to everyone that took my erroneous statement/conviction to heart. I promise to refer to my notes before I make any strong statements. In my family tree I have her as the end of the branch, with no parents but with accompanying notes with directions to Moctezuma II’s tree in case it is ever proven that she is his granddaughter.
When I look at someone else’s work, even if they are highly esteemed genealogists like my Tio Dr. Rito Romo, Mariano Gonzalez Leal, my first cousin Dr. Ernesto Casillas, J. Alberto Casillas, or Jaime Holcombe I check their information for accuracy for I have found mistakes in all of their work and corrected it using primary sources. Genealogy is time consuming and tiring at times. Mistakes happen when you are tired and handling tremendous amounts of information. That is why I check all finds before adding them to my tree. If there are questions, then I do not add them to my tree but add them to notes.
In my notes I do have many scraps of information that do lead me to believe that Toribio Hernandez Arellano is a descendent of both the Ramirez Arellano family and the Hurtado de Mendoza family. For the past few months I have been writing a book detailing the fernandez de hijar family from its beginning with the first ferandez de hijar to the Rodriguez de hijar branch in Nochistlan that continued on to Los Altos de Jalisco, and finally to Santa Monica, Cailfornia. At no time did I combine or connect the research of the hijar family to the Ramirez arrelano family in my search for Toribio Hernandez Arellano’s parents. It wasn’t until members of nuestrosranchos.orgmunity brought it to my attention that I realized that all my work led to this same conclusion. I will not make a strong statement yet since I still have pie on my face from my comments on Petronila Mendoza but I will continue writing my Fernandez/Rodriguez de hijar book, and putting all the pieces of this puzzle together.
I am grateful to everyone that questions any statements that I make. I am grateful to everyone that will look at my work critically and help me correct any mistakes that I may make. I love genealogy. That is why I do not place individuals in my tree unless they have been confirmed to be the right individuals. I would rather have a shorter accurate tree than a bigger tree filled with even one inaccuracy. Once an inaccurate piece of information is placed in a tree the rest of that part of the branch is false and undermines all the work put in to collect true information.
P.S. An example of why I question everything:
My brother sent me
GENEALOGÍA DE LA FAMILIA GARCÍA SANCHO Y SUS ALIANZAS TAPATÍAS
Por: Guillermo Padilla-Dávila y Origel y Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar Márquez.
His wife descends from this line and it is a wonderful piece of work. It is very detailed and highly accurate except for one small mistake that did not ruin the rest of the work because the person in question was listed as a mother and the line focused on the father. The source listed was a work by Mariano Gonzalez Leal. The lady in question was a wife but she was a second wife and the lady that should have been in the tree was the first wife for she was the mother that belonged there. What made the mistake easier to make was that both wives were surnamed Gonzalez. They were not the same person. I have documented both marriages and have the baptismal certificate showing the first wife as his mother. There is a slight possibility that The father had a second son with the same name with his second wife but he would have married at a young age given the date of the second marriage.
The line was also incomplete in that it branched out to my sister in laws mother but ignored the branch that led to her father who married his cousin, I don’t remember if they were 3rd or 4th cousins. I worked out his branch, made the needed correction and additions and forwarded the work to my brother and sister in law.
R.A.Ricci
Pedro Moctezuma
Donald Chipman, in "Moctezuma's Children," provides some information on Pedro Moctezuma's descendants, but I do not think his treatment is complete; the subject is to broad to have been completely incorporated in his book..
His figure 4.2 shows Pedro and three of his wives, or consorts:
(1) Ines Tiacapan, the mother of Martin Moctezuma, who had no heirs
(2) Catalina Quiasichititl, the mother of Diego Luis Moctezuma (he married Francisca de la Cueva y Valenzuela: 6 children)
(3) Doña Francisca (no issue)
In the text of Ch 4 and in its note #54, Chipman refers to children of four other women: Bartolome, Lorenzo, Maria, and Magdalena. He refers to AGI, Mexico, 764, Tabla II and Reflexiones sobre la Tabla VI. Mother's names arre given in Tabla II. [AGI = Archiva General de Indias, Seville]. This may be available through PARES, but I have not looked for it.
Pedro Moctezuma left a will; and it apparently still exists, but I do not know where (perhaps in the Mexican Archives). He names his children in it, most as "hijo naturales." His first son was his principle heir (named Martin Cortes in the text; perhaps this is Martin Cortes Moctezuma.)
Chipman also refers to the PhD dissertation of Ann Prather Hollingsworth on Pedro Moctezuma's descendants. The dissertation if available from ProQuest (successor to University Microfilms); the cost is a $41.00 via internet order. I've not looked at this. I would expect this is the most complete treatment of his descendants; it was written in 1980.
It would be really nice if someone would post a "definitive" study of the Martin Navarro/Petronila de Moctezuma descent, with primary citations (and where these citations may be found!). As well as some of the other connections.
Donald Chipman's "Moctezuma's Children" is still available from the major online book sellers. It is not expensive, and is very interesting reading.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA