It is from the 1600's and difficult to read, but here is what I got:
It states the three times the plans to marry were announced,and then name Nicolas de Armas.
After Nicolas de Armas, looks like esp (espanol) and then something I have never seen before: mocosoltero. So I googled it and moco soltero pops up in other texts and is an old fashioned way of saying handsome single young man.
Likewise it looks like moca doncella (abr. don_a)is whats written after Juana's name, moca doncella also shows up on a google search and means something like beatiful and young (virgin)girl. Doncella I have seen before, and soltero, but not moca/moco. Learned something new!And it looks like Dona (abbreviated) in front of Juanas name.
Nicolas son of:
Miguel de Armas, deceased and Andrea (?) de Avila, desceased..."dicho ciudad" (of said town/city) The word after the abbreviation of difunto and before "dicho" I cannot read.
Dona Juana is either dau or ward of (?) Leonor de Lesalde espanola and Antonio de Robalcaba (caste or nationality which I dont recognize). Possibly deceased (difuntos). There is text here which I cannot decipher, but surely someone used to reading records from this time period would be able to...
Padrinos: Pedro de Ulloa and Dona Josepha de Sepulveda his wife. I think its odd that there's no Don in front of Pedro...
Hope this helps at least a little bit! And I hope someone out there can add more...
I was wondering if it is possible to find my ancestor from working forward to backwards from finding the earliest De Armas individual in Mexico and just going from there and see if it leads to my De Armas ancestor if it is possible can you explain to me how to do it?One more thing so this brick wall im having with Juan Amrosio De Armas I think i found his baptism record but i'm not sure if it's really him how can i verify if it's really him here is the link
It is really fun when you find a match! I get that the father is Nicolas de Armas and the mother is Juana de (cant'read). But what it interesting and exciting is the padrinos are the same ones as for the marriage! Pedro de Ulloa and Josepha de Sepulveda.
Regards
Denise
(ps wish I was having such good luck)
It's really awesome right!?Yes basically the father is Nicolas De Armas and Juana De Lisalde/Carrion/Currion.But i still need to find out if that is really Ambrosio De Armas parents but i have no clue how?Really can i get the link for it?
The normal process is to work from the known to the unknown. Going the other way is less productive, in general.
I took a look at the record you cite: if I read it correctly, it is a 1682 baptism of Juan de Armas.
As I recall, your Juan Ambrocio de Armas had at least 6 children, one of whom (Maria Francisca) was baptized 18 Dec 1757, in Nochistlan; there seem not be to baptisms for the others, but they are identified in the marriage records as his children. That would make him 75 years old in 1757. This age would make it pretty unlikely that this Juan and your Juan Ambrocio are the same.
Or said differently, Nicholas de Armas, father of Juan, is not the father of Juan Ambrocio. At best, Nicholas would be a grandfather. Proof is lacking.
If you look at the records of baptisms and marriages for all known descendants of Nicholas de Armas, and some of them show up in the records of your known de Armas ancestors as padrinos, this may imply a relationship. However, by itself, this is not proof.
As previously noted, look in the matrimonial investigations. It is possible some clues may be there, or if you are lucky, you may even find the link you need. A word of caution: the early matrimonial investigations files are not necessarily complete, and may not be in chronological order. This is especially true in the early years.
I agree with Mr. Fulton about working from the known to the uknown.
You have found Nicolas, Juana and son Juan in the late 1600's. That the Nicolas and Juana named in the marriage entry are the same as the Nicolas and Juana in the baptism entry is something supported by the names of the padrinos.
However, you cannot prove that son Juan is identical to your Juan Ambrosio. I know that brick wall all too well!
The best advice is that given by Mr. Fulton - try to find a matrimonial investigation for Juan Ambrosio or someone in Juan Ambrosios family, which I gather you have a certain link to.
These are all at the same Family Search location as the baptism, marriage, and death records for Nochistlan. These are the links for the specific films.
There also records for 1677-1707, but there is a large gap as the next group is 1730-32. After 1759, there are some gaps in the 1760s, but they seem to cover all the years after that to 1800. I didn't check dates after that.
These records, at least after the earliest years follow a standard form:
Typically, each investigation begins on a new page. Although this is not necessarily true for the earlier records.
Introductory paragraph with the date, location, and some ecclesiatical information.
A paragraph that begins with the groom's name, ethnicity, where he's from, and usually parent's names. If he is a widower, his former wife's name is given; in this case his parents names are usually omitted. Sometimes it will state how long he has been a widower. It gives the bride's name, ethnicity, parent's names; if she was a widow, her former husband's name is given, and then her parents names are usually omitted. This is probably the most valuable part of the document as there may be information here that is not in the marriage record, especially in the early years. The groom apparently signs the statement (or the notary for him).
There will be declaration by the groom (or Pretenso), which repeats much of this, and often will give his age also.
There will be a declaration by the bride (or Pretensa), which is similar to the groom's.
There will be statements of some witnesses; 2 or 3 is typical. The intent of all this is establish that they are not currently married, or if the were married, the former spouse is known to be deceased (sometimes there will be a certificate or statement from the church where he/she is buried). The witnesses will also state that there is no impediment such as consanguinity or affinity. They are of good character, and so on.
There will be a finding of no impediment, and the document will close with an attestation that they were married.
A typical record is 2-3 images (5-6 pages). If there are "problems," the record can be longer.
If the marriage required a dispensation (dispensa), that document may be attached; sometimes, that is only only document for the investigation in the matrimonial investigation book. The dispensa is not the investigation for the dispensation, those documents are with the diocesan records in Guadalajara. The dispensa will state the impediment (eg, 4th degree consanguinity), but will not give the details of the relationship.
The declarations and witness statements all tend to follow a standard pattern. The eclessiatical language adds little of genealogical value.
Once again, these files are not necessarily complete. There are marriages with no extant investigation records, and there are investigation records for couples that you cannot find a marriage record.
So for sure this Nicholas De Armas is some how related to my Ambrosio De Armas?I'm taking a pretty good educated guess that this Nicholas De Armas was from Mexticacan then went to Nochistlan. The matrimonial investigation are located in the Guadalajara Dispensas if I'm correct?Ilooked through the Guadalajara Dispensas and found nothing on Ambrosio De Armas.
This is why trying to work from the unknown to prove a relationship is problematic.
With what we have at the moment, we cannot say that Nicholas de Armas is related to your de Armas family. A similar name in a small town suggests a relationship, but this is a long way from proof.
I did not say that Nicolas de Armas is related. What I said this that his son Juan de Armas is likely not the same person as your Juan Ambrocio de Armas.
I also said that, if related, he (Nicolas) could, at the closest, be a grandfather of Juan Ambrocio. At the moment this is purely hypothetical. Juan, the son of Nicolas de Armas, was born in 1682. Juan Ambrocio de Armas had a daughter baptized in 1757. It is very unlikely that a 75 year old man would father a child, he is too old.
Based on several dates with Juan Ambrocio's family, I would estimate that he was married in the 1740-45 period. It is also possible that he was married in the late 1730s. If you don't find anything in the 1740-45 matrimonial investigations, then try the 1735-40 period.
The Nochistlan matrimonial investigations are with the other Nochistlan church records, not with the dispensations in the Diocese of Guadalajara records.
Help reading the marriage doc
It is from the 1600's and difficult to read, but here is what I got:
It states the three times the plans to marry were announced,and then name Nicolas de Armas.
After Nicolas de Armas, looks like esp (espanol) and then something I have never seen before: mocosoltero. So I googled it and moco soltero pops up in other texts and is an old fashioned way of saying handsome single young man.
Likewise it looks like moca doncella (abr. don_a)is whats written after Juana's name, moca doncella also shows up on a google search and means something like beatiful and young (virgin)girl. Doncella I have seen before, and soltero, but not moca/moco. Learned something new!And it looks like Dona (abbreviated) in front of Juanas name.
Nicolas son of:
Miguel de Armas, deceased and Andrea (?) de Avila, desceased..."dicho ciudad" (of said town/city) The word after the abbreviation of difunto and before "dicho" I cannot read.
Dona Juana is either dau or ward of (?) Leonor de Lesalde espanola and Antonio de Robalcaba (caste or nationality which I dont recognize). Possibly deceased (difuntos). There is text here which I cannot decipher, but surely someone used to reading records from this time period would be able to...
Padrinos: Pedro de Ulloa and Dona Josepha de Sepulveda his wife. I think its odd that there's no Don in front of Pedro...
Hope this helps at least a little bit! And I hope someone out there can add more...
Regards
Denise Fastrup
Help reading the marriage doc
Denise
Thank you so much Denise for helping me understand this document.
Help reading the marriage doc
Sanchez-Castellanos
mocosoltero maybe is "mozo soltero", where "mozo" is to call the son that have the same name that the father and "soltero" is sigle.
De Armas
I was wondering if it is possible to find my ancestor from working forward to backwards from finding the earliest De Armas individual in Mexico and just going from there and see if it leads to my De Armas ancestor if it is possible can you explain to me how to do it?One more thing so this brick wall im having with Juan Amrosio De Armas I think i found his baptism record but i'm not sure if it's really him how can i verify if it's really him here is the link
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-16430-12?cc=1410092&wc…
baptism Juan Ambrosio de Armas
It is really fun when you find a match! I get that the father is Nicolas de Armas and the mother is Juana de (cant'read). But what it interesting and exciting is the padrinos are the same ones as for the marriage! Pedro de Ulloa and Josepha de Sepulveda.
Regards
Denise
(ps wish I was having such good luck)
baptism Juan Ambrosio de Armas
Denise,
It's really awesome right!?Yes basically the father is Nicolas De Armas and Juana De Lisalde/Carrion/Currion.But i still need to find out if that is really Ambrosio De Armas parents but i have no clue how?Really can i get the link for it?
de Armas ... working forward
Abram
The normal process is to work from the known to the unknown. Going the other way is less productive, in general.
I took a look at the record you cite: if I read it correctly, it is a 1682 baptism of Juan de Armas.
As I recall, your Juan Ambrocio de Armas had at least 6 children, one of whom (Maria Francisca) was baptized 18 Dec 1757, in Nochistlan; there seem not be to baptisms for the others, but they are identified in the marriage records as his children. That would make him 75 years old in 1757. This age would make it pretty unlikely that this Juan and your Juan Ambrocio are the same.
Or said differently, Nicholas de Armas, father of Juan, is not the father of Juan Ambrocio. At best, Nicholas would be a grandfather. Proof is lacking.
If you look at the records of baptisms and marriages for all known descendants of Nicholas de Armas, and some of them show up in the records of your known de Armas ancestors as padrinos, this may imply a relationship. However, by itself, this is not proof.
As previously noted, look in the matrimonial investigations. It is possible some clues may be there, or if you are lucky, you may even find the link you need. A word of caution: the early matrimonial investigations files are not necessarily complete, and may not be in chronological order. This is especially true in the early years.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
De Armas, working forward
Hi Abram
I agree with Mr. Fulton about working from the known to the uknown.
You have found Nicolas, Juana and son Juan in the late 1600's. That the Nicolas and Juana named in the marriage entry are the same as the Nicolas and Juana in the baptism entry is something supported by the names of the padrinos.
However, you cannot prove that son Juan is identical to your Juan Ambrosio. I know that brick wall all too well!
The best advice is that given by Mr. Fulton - try to find a matrimonial investigation for Juan Ambrosio or someone in Juan Ambrosios family, which I gather you have a certain link to.
Good Luck! (you'll need it)
Denise
Matrimonial Investigations
Denise.
IS there a specific link to this matrimonial investigation and if so may you provide me with it.
Nochistlan matrimonial investigations
Abram
These are all at the same Family Search location as the baptism, marriage, and death records for Nochistlan. These are the links for the specific films.
1730-32
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-27192-28?cc=1410092&wc…
Apparently there is a gap for 1733, but that is possibly too early, as are likely the 1730-32 records.
1734-38
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-20514-7?cc=1410092&wc=…
1739-49
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-12423-6?cc=1410092&wc=…
1750-59
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc…
There also records for 1677-1707, but there is a large gap as the next group is 1730-32. After 1759, there are some gaps in the 1760s, but they seem to cover all the years after that to 1800. I didn't check dates after that.
These records, at least after the earliest years follow a standard form:
Typically, each investigation begins on a new page. Although this is not necessarily true for the earlier records.
Introductory paragraph with the date, location, and some ecclesiatical information.
A paragraph that begins with the groom's name, ethnicity, where he's from, and usually parent's names. If he is a widower, his former wife's name is given; in this case his parents names are usually omitted. Sometimes it will state how long he has been a widower. It gives the bride's name, ethnicity, parent's names; if she was a widow, her former husband's name is given, and then her parents names are usually omitted. This is probably the most valuable part of the document as there may be information here that is not in the marriage record, especially in the early years. The groom apparently signs the statement (or the notary for him).
There will be declaration by the groom (or Pretenso), which repeats much of this, and often will give his age also.
There will be a declaration by the bride (or Pretensa), which is similar to the groom's.
There will be statements of some witnesses; 2 or 3 is typical. The intent of all this is establish that they are not currently married, or if the were married, the former spouse is known to be deceased (sometimes there will be a certificate or statement from the church where he/she is buried). The witnesses will also state that there is no impediment such as consanguinity or affinity. They are of good character, and so on.
There will be a finding of no impediment, and the document will close with an attestation that they were married.
A typical record is 2-3 images (5-6 pages). If there are "problems," the record can be longer.
If the marriage required a dispensation (dispensa), that document may be attached; sometimes, that is only only document for the investigation in the matrimonial investigation book. The dispensa is not the investigation for the dispensation, those documents are with the diocesan records in Guadalajara. The dispensa will state the impediment (eg, 4th degree consanguinity), but will not give the details of the relationship.
The declarations and witness statements all tend to follow a standard pattern. The eclessiatical language adds little of genealogical value.
Once again, these files are not necessarily complete. There are marriages with no extant investigation records, and there are investigation records for couples that you cannot find a marriage record.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
De Armas working forward
George,
So for sure this Nicholas De Armas is some how related to my Ambrosio De Armas?I'm taking a pretty good educated guess that this Nicholas De Armas was from Mexticacan then went to Nochistlan. The matrimonial investigation are located in the Guadalajara Dispensas if I'm correct?Ilooked through the Guadalajara Dispensas and found nothing on Ambrosio De Armas.
Nicolas de Armas
This is why trying to work from the unknown to prove a relationship is problematic.
With what we have at the moment, we cannot say that Nicholas de Armas is related to your de Armas family. A similar name in a small town suggests a relationship, but this is a long way from proof.
I did not say that Nicolas de Armas is related. What I said this that his son Juan de Armas is likely not the same person as your Juan Ambrocio de Armas.
I also said that, if related, he (Nicolas) could, at the closest, be a grandfather of Juan Ambrocio. At the moment this is purely hypothetical. Juan, the son of Nicolas de Armas, was born in 1682. Juan Ambrocio de Armas had a daughter baptized in 1757. It is very unlikely that a 75 year old man would father a child, he is too old.
Based on several dates with Juan Ambrocio's family, I would estimate that he was married in the 1740-45 period. It is also possible that he was married in the late 1730s. If you don't find anything in the 1740-45 matrimonial investigations, then try the 1735-40 period.
The Nochistlan matrimonial investigations are with the other Nochistlan church records, not with the dispensations in the Diocese of Guadalajara records.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA