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By inoeys |

(scroll down to second paragraph for English)

Acabo de recibir una copia de la dispensa matrimonial de Prudencio de la Torre y Maria Rafaela de Miranda, descendientes del capitán Juan del Campo y de la Torre y su esposa Angela de Velasco Rentería y Mojica por cuatro lineas, y me llamó la atención que Manuel de la Torre está mencionado como hijo de Juan de la Torre y Agueda del Rio(!!!) (A pesar de que veo que en muchos árboles Manuel está como hijo de Juan del Campo de la Torre y Angela de Velasco, ya es bien sabido gracias a la dispensa de Roque de la Torre hijo de Diego, que Manuel y Roque son primos hermanos. ¿Pero cuál Juan es su papá? ¿El mismo que se casó con Clara Chavez de Bañuelos? ¿Y Agueda es la misma Agueda Del Río y Olague que se casó con Pedro Chavez de Bañuelos, el hermano de Clara???!!! ¿O será error de escriba y la madre de Manuel es Clara Chavez? Transcribo los troncos que vienen en esa hoja suelta. (En mayúsculas las dos lineas descendientes de cada tronco.)

I just received a copy of the 1706 dispensa of Prudencio de la Torre and Maria Rafaela de Miranda, descendants (on 4 lines!) of Juan del Campo y de la Torre and Angela de Velasco Rentería y Mojica and I was surprised to see that Manuel de la Torre is listed as the son of Juan de la Torre and Agueda del Rio(!!!). Despite all the trees listing Manuel as Juan Sr. and Angela de Velasco's son, we already know from the dispensa of Roque (son of Diego) that Manuel is the grandchild of Juan and Angela. But, which Juan then is his father? The Juan who married Clara Chavez de Bañuelos? And Agueda del Rio is the same Agueda del Rio y Olague who married Pedro Chavez de Bañuelos? Is anybody not as confused as I am? Does anybody think it might be a scribe error and Manuel's mother is actually Clara instead of Agueda? I proceed then to transcribe the trunk(s) in the loose sheet. (In uppercase letters the descending two lines in every trunk).

Dn. JUAN DE LA TORRE.....Padres...Da. ANGELA DE VELASCO
Ana de Haro-DIEGO DE LA TORRE.........Hijos..........ANDRES DE LA TORRE
Juana de la Torre-ROQUE DE LA TORRE..................JOSEPH DE LA TORRE-Josepha de la Torre
Juana de la Torre-ROQUE JACINTO DE LA TORRE...JULIANA DE LA TORRE-Nicolás de Miranda
PRUDENCIO DE LA TORRE (pretenso).......................FELIX DE MIRANDA-Petra García
..................................................................................MARIA RAFAELA DE MIRANDA (pretensa)

Dn. JUAN DE LA TORRE.....Padres...Da. ANGELA DE VELASCO
Agueda del Rio-JUAN DE LA TORRE........Hijos..........ANDRES DE LA TORRE
Josefa González-MANUEL DE LA TORRE..................JOSEPH DE LA TORRE-Josepha de la Torre
Roque de la Torre-JUANA DE LA TORRE...................JULIANA DE LA TORRE-Nicolás de Miranda
Juana de la Torre-ROQUE JACINTO DE LA TORRE....FELIX DE MIRANDA-Petra García
PRUDENCIO DE LA TORRE (pretenso).......................MARIA RAFAELA DE MIRANDA (pretensa)

Dn. JUAN DE LA TORRE.....Padres...Da. ANGELA DE VELASCO
ANA del Rio-SEBASTIAN DE LA TORRE........Hijos.......DIEGO DE LA TORRE-Ana de Haro
Joseph de la Torre-JOSEPHA DE LA TORRE...............ROQUE DE LA TORRE-Juana de la Torre
Nicolás de Miranda-JULIANA DE LA TORRE...............ROQUE JACINTO-Juana de la Torre
Petra Garcia-FELIX DE MIRANDA................................PRUDENCIO DE LA TORRE (pretenso)
MARIA RAFAELA DE MIRANDA (pretensa)

Dn. JUAN DE LA TORRE.....Padres...Da. ANGELA DE VELASCO
DIEGO DE LA TORRE.....................Hijos.....................ANDRES DE LA TORRE-Ana de Haro
(hijo bastardo) CRISTÓBAL DE LA TORRE.................JOSEPH DE LA TORRE-Josepha de la Torre
Roque Jacinto de la Torre-JUANA DE LA TORRE.......JULIANA DE LA TORRE-Nicolás de Miranda
PRUDENCIO DE LA TORRE (pretenso).......................FELIX DE MIRANDA-Petra García
..................................................................................MARIA RAFAELA DE MIRANDA (pretensa)

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erlong

3 years 5 months ago

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can you share where you found that marriage dispensation record? I've gone through the marriages in the sagrada mitra for that time period and can't find it..
Erlinda Castanon-Long

Hey Erlinda,

I don't have the FamilySearch link to the document because it was shared with me as an image over email. I did ask for the link, so as soon as I get it I will post it here. I was told it was a loose sheet from the Jerez archives.

In the meantime, I can either forward it to you by email or you can see it on Ancestry, where I posted it on my public tree. I attached it to the profiles of every single one of the people mentioned in it. My username over there is the same as my handle here.

Cheers!

I emailed you the dispensa; Linda. Looking forward to reading what you and the rest the cousins make of it.

So I just realised that the info on this dispensa doesn't quite match the info the dispensa of Felipe Santiago de Orta and Antonia de los Dolores Barragán. That one puts Sebastian de la Torre (cc Ana del Rio) as brother of Juan de la Torre (cc Angela Velasco) while, this one of Prudencio and Rafaela lists him as Juan and Angela's son. I assume it ws easy to confuse one Juan for the other (father and son). I suppose it can become clearer with birthdates, but I am not on top of all that info yet. Hopefully someone can solve this (apparent?) mystery/confusion as well as the one regarding Manuel's parent's. Everything else seems to check out, but I will reread the Orta Barragán dispensa and other documents that might help me clarify.

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thank you for sharing the record for Prudencio and Rafaela and I am now more confused than ever and really think I have the children for the two Juan de la Torre and the two different spouses(Angela Renteria Velasco Moxica and Juana Gamboa Villalobos) mixed up.. I am going to wait and let my head clear before trying to tackle it again.

Thank you again for sharing the record
Erlinda Castanon-Long

Hey Erlinda and all the rest,

I have been re-studying the dispensas and after somebody pointed out to me that I/we need to take into consideration how close in time the witnesses in these dispensas are to the people mentioned as ancestors, it has become very clear that the information on the Prudencio and Rafaela dispensa regarding the parentage Manuel de la Torre is wrong and the information on the Roque de la Torre and Juana de la Torre dispensa is correct. It's obviously Juan and Angela, not Juan Jr. and Agueda (del Rio y Olague!). Not a scribe mistake, but a witness lack of precise knowledge.

Hey Erlinda,

I don't have the FamilySearch link to the document because it was shared with me as an image over email. I did ask for the link, so as soon as I get it I will post it here. I was told it was a loose sheet from the Jerez archives.

In the meantime, I can either forward it to you by email or you can see it on Ancestry, where I posted it on my tree. I attached it to the profiles of every single one of the people mentioned in it. My username over there is the same as my handle here.

Cheers!

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