Hi, Marge, Yes, at first I thought "tarayata" was an Indian tribe because it does sound like "taraumara". Emilie
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Irma, yes, well said. Oh, I forgot to say that my Spanish friend did allude to the fact that when the Moors and Jews were kicked out of Spain, Spain went to pot. When I asked her how so, she said the Jews and Arabs were advanced civilizations who founded the universities in Spain, etc. And a funny thing happened to her (well, she and I thought it funny at the time): we went into a gift shop up here in Bremerton WA once to window shop their Peruvian things, and it was run by an obvious descendant of the Incas. When he heard my friend's fancy Castilian accent, he really lit into her! He started off with "Oh, so you are Espanola. Do you know what your people did to mine?" He proceeded to tell her off royally, listing all the injuries the conquistadores had heaped on his people. She just said simply, "Well, I personally did not do those things", but he kept on and not only suggested that an apology from her people was in order, but that they should make restitution. I guess he
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Peggy, I took at look at familysearch.org site and found some information for you. Here is the Christening extract for Maria de las Nieves Mojarro: Maria de Las NievesSex: F Event(s): Christening: 16 Aug 1813 Place: Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico Parents: Father: Silverio MOJARRO Mother: Juliana ESTRADA Grandparents: Father's Father: Juan MOJARRO Father's Mother: Maria Dolores GONZALES Mother's Father: Jose ESTRADA Mother's Mother: Juana Maria Source Information: Batch Number: C607124 Source Dates: 1809 - 1818 Film or Fiche Number: 443811 Collection Details: Catolica Here are some more Mojarro Estrada children, ie siblings to Maria Nieves: +Jose Paulin MOJARRO NUNES Gender: M Birth/Christening: 22 Jun 1817 Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico +MARIA CLEMENCIA MOJARRO ESTRADA Gender: Female Christening: 23 NOV 1819 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico +JUAN JOSE MOJARRO ESTRADA Gender
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-------- Original Message --------
Dear Joseph: Saludos. Although you will have many people of color (Arabs, Blacks I would be honored if you post the |
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Hi, Irma,
Yes, my "friend" is the product of a Catholic girl's school in Pamplona. So that tells you something. Her brothers, who unlike girls in Spain at the time, received higher educations and are engineers, etc. and are more worldly, have gone to school and worked in Mexico. She has never been there, yet when my husband would break out into a popular Mexican song, she started to sing along with him. When I asked her how she knew the song, she said that Mexican songs and movies have always been very popular in Spain. Her husband, who is a Mestizo, and whose father, like mine, was also born in Jerez, Zac. is as prejudiced as she. More so, I think, since she married him even though he was from a different race and country. He probably wanted to married up; she really married down. (She gave up a prominent social position in Spain to marry an American serviceman--maybe she felt adventurous). He even told me he never wanted to marry a dark-skinned person. Their kids look
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-----Original Message-----
From: ranchos@...om
[mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kitty
Cortez
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 6:49 AM
To:
ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Cortes and Sandoval,
Tlaltenango, ZacJose Munoz,check out the files section for Rich and Kitty Cortez
under SANDOVAL, Francisco. We also have Cortes and Sandoval in
the Tlaltenango area. Do we have a connection with your
wife?2. Pedro SANDOVAL (Francisco de).
Pedro
married2 (1) Juana
CORTES daughter of Juan
CORTES and Maria
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Joseph,
NO, my mother was not from South America. She was a "manita" from New Mexico, part of the 500-year-old gene pool from Juarez-New Mexico. (That is why I joined your Ciudad-Juarez group). They are a breed all their own, since they were isolated in the northern reaches of the Spanish Mexican empire. They spoke Spanish with their own 16th century dialect, etc, until my mother's generation, and besides having Piro-Manso-Tewa blood, they were thought to be Sephardic Jews in hiding.
All I can think of is that being of Basque descendancy from Zacatecas, my father's people may have used an old Basque word that was taken to South America by other Basque immigrants to other parts of the New World. I will post messages to both the Peruvian website and the Spanish Basque website and ask about the word "tarayata". One strange thing---I have recently begun to get unsolicitated e-mails from the Basque Separatists in Spain. I think they have trolled the internet and contacted everyone
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Good information. If you have ever read a list of the first settlers that the Spanish sent, you'll see a cross section of many Europeans, north Africans, and some Asians (mostly Filipinos), that evenly mixed together and with the local inhabitants (Indians). We are a composite of many peoples. Alberto. --- Victor Villarrealwrote: > I join you, Alicia, in welcoming Joseph's "tocayo" > José. > > I don't know if you've heard this one, which I > learned thru a > friend. Paraphrasing Forrest Gump's memorable > quote: "life is like a > box of chocolates...", our new quote is "Mexican > genealogy is like a > big bowl of tamales, you never know what you're > gonna get". You may > pull out a pork tamale, or beef, or cheese, beans, > coconut, sugar and > raisins..... > > Victor > > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo > wrote: > > So well put Jose Munoz and welcome to this group. > > > > I believe that anyone who is searching for their
2. Pedro SANDOVAL (Francisco de).
Pedro
married2 (1) Juana
CORTES daughter of Juan CORTES
and Maria PONSE on 3 Jun 1709 in Tlaltenango, Zacatecas.
and Juana Cortes have a daughter Ysabel Gregoria SANDOVAL Cortes b.
15Dec1715doc, married 10 Nov 1736 doc to Antonio de Vargas CASTANEDA. We
follow Ysabel's brother Joseph Geronimo SANDOVAL's line. He was born 5 Jun
1626doc, married 27 Dec 1770doc to Teodora Rosalia GONZALES Mendes. Joseph
Geronimo Sandoval's first wife was Juana Maria
Mojarra.
from Tlaltenango, Zac, but I don't find the Luna connection with our
Cortes/Sandoval line.
cousins?
Cortez
CA
--
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I join you, Alicia, in welcoming Joseph's "tocayo" José. I don't know if you've heard this one, which I learned thru a friend. Paraphrasing Forrest Gump's memorable quote: "life is like a box of chocolates...", our new quote is "Mexican genealogy is like a big bowl of tamales, you never know what you're gonna get". You may pull out a pork tamale, or beef, or cheese, beans, coconut, sugar and raisins..... Victor --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillowrote: > So well put Jose Munoz and welcome to this group. > > I believe that anyone who is searching for their roots in Mexico has to be open minded. One can't believe that we're 100% this or 100% that. Just by virtue of the fact that we have or are descendants from Mexico a land that was invaded by Europeans less than 5 centuries ago. A land that was populated by many proud Indian tribes with such rich cultures, languages and history. A land that because of it's riches was invaded, pilfered
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Hey as far as I'm concerned I'm just a group member. the only rule is |
I'm new to this group and read many of the groups messages.. In my family lines there were hijo and hijas naturales along with hijo/hijas legitimos. For example 3 naturals out of family 12. I have a copy of the Church Marriage Record.... so why a natural baptism for 3 of them. I have a gggrandfather baptized as a Don? Why at birth is someone named a don? Heir apparent? Laborers, Sirvientes, miners. I have a family line who think they are French. Why? Because of Grandma's Green eyes! The truth of the matters is they can not accept the fact they are Indian decent mixed with espanoles. I'm Mexican, born and raised in the U.S., and I'm proud to be Mexican. My 4th greatgrandfather was espanol. His brothers and sisters married espanoles/las. But Ysidro Munoz married an Yndia. My 3th Great, Roque Munoz 1760, a mestizo was at times recorded on Bautismo records as espanol, coyote, and lobo? Why such a thing? They were from Rancho de Banon, Zac., 2nd great Francisco Munoz 1786 a mestizo, from
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face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> Can I be invited to the ranchos 2 group as well. While it is true that I don't respond often to the various mailings (I am very active during the school year), I do try to stay in touch with the readings and various postings. However, for some obscure reason (assuming that I did not register for ranchos 2 group), I am not able to enter the ranchos 2 group. So, I assumed that I did not remember (the memorypause stuff again) my password, and I am once again confused. Esperanza
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I have seen both Dolores and Maria used as men's names on many records. Often Maria comes from the given name Jose Maria My great-great grandfather's given name was Jose Dolores. His marriage record shows that he used only Dolores when he married my great-great grandmother. --- zendeanwrote: > > Fellow searchers; > I have encountered some thing strange in my > extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means > that the child has no father. But at times there is > an man's name written in below the child's name in > the bapised child list, but not in body of the > narrative where the names of the parents is listed. > In your experience, does this mean that the father > was named , but does not acknowledge that child ? > Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father > listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or > "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ? > I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a > woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a
To add to Victor's comments: I saw a baptismal record in which the body of the form did not include the biological father's name. The child was identified as "natural". At the end of the record I saw a sentence in which someone (presumably) the priest wrote that so-and-so had admitted to being the father of the child. Human nature is frail at times and many rules are seriously bent. I have also read that priests were very scarce in many of the mission areas. The priest could show up to marry and baptize once or twice a year. ometimes once in two or three years. The absence of a priest did not prevent couples from joining their lives and bearing children. Thus since the church did not wish to upset people it developed the term "hijo/a natural". These children were not considered illegitimate although in many church records you will find entries testifying that a father accepted a child as legitimate. This made it possible for the hijo natural to enjoy whatever inheritance
I wish to add a few comments. Freedom of expression also includes freedom of using the delete button. There are many things in this existence which cannot be changed. Yet mature adults discuss them because of another gift of the creator- intellectual curiosity. Iagree that so long as folks are respectful of one another good can come of speaking about a subject that might make others uncomfortable. I would hate to see open-ness stifled. David -----Original Message----- From: Victor VillarrealSent: Jun 23, 2005 8:08 PM To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ranchos] Re: Racial Classifications No need to be sad, Carol.
It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race
can be considered tabu. But we all are mature persons, tolerant of
each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that
reflects ill will in any message.
On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring
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face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> My two cents: I am heartened to hear the perspectives of those that have different experiences than I did, and I am glad to continue my learning of our raza from their pain and various "readiness/awareness" stage. While I am not the moderator, I would hope that this venue continues to provide a safe environment for sharing personal history. Esperanza
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No need to be sad, Carol. It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race can be considered tabu. But we all are mature persons, tolerant of each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that reflects ill will in any message. On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring historical facts into the open so we learn the painful mistakes of our ancestors and avoid stumbling with the same blocks in our time. Well, this is just my opinion. If Joseph thinks we should not mention any of this I will respect his wish. Victor --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Lesterwrote: > I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group. As one very wise "human"
Rock on, Carol!!!:) Marge:)
On Jun 23, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Carol Lester wrote:
I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group. As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..." Come on, really, what does it matter anyway? My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us. He doesn't make junk...we do. As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilia
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications
I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I
I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group. As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..." Come on, really, what does it matter anyway? My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us. He doesn't make junk...we do. As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!! -----Original Message----- From: EmiliaSent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I have roots in Mexico going back to the early 1700's, he and I look so different. In
Jose Luis, About "hija natural" or "hijo natural" I've always known that it meant a child born out of wedlock not that the child has no father. I've seen baptisms records of "hijos naturales" where both parents are listed. Identifying the gender that corresponds to a particular name can be tricky and there's not a single answer that applies to every case. We would have to take a look at the actual manuscript film to decide. A rule of thumb is that the father's name is always listed first. Regarding the use of "Y" versus "I" in names such as Ysabel or Ysidro, you have to realize that back in the old days there were no standard grammar rules and whatever rules there were I think the priests applied them at their own discretion. The older the documents you look at the wider variability you will find in their caligraphy/script. Victor --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, zendeanwrote: > > Fellow searchers; > I have encountered some thing strange in my
Fellow searchers; I have encountered some thing strange in my extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means that the child has no father. But at times there is an man's name written in below the child's name in the bapised child list, but not in body of the narrative where the names of the parents is listed. In your experience, does this mean that the father was named , but does not acknowledge that child ? Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ? I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a better formula than if the name ends in "o"= boy or "a"=girl ? The child is either "Hija" or Hijo". the times that I have trouble is when the name is not clear and the parish father puts "hn" or "hl", in those cases I can't tell the gender. Also, at times the parent is listed as "Jesus Montenegro or Juan Eliso Montenegro". Do you know if
Armando, I had no idea that the peoples of Los Altos were considered elitist... you see the first Gutierrez record I've found for my Gutierrez family says they are from Los Haciendas de los Altos, Jalisco and registered the birth in Atoyac. Guess they came by the attitudes from way back... Many people think of racism as one sided but like you, I know first hand that discrimination comes from both sides of the street.. Linda