Nuestros Ranchos Site

Peggy,

I took at look at familysearch.org site and found some information 
for you.

Here is the Christening extract for Maria de las Nieves Mojarro: 

Maria de Las Nieves 
  Sex: F

Event(s):
 Christening: 16 Aug 1813  Place: Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, 
Zacatecas, Mexico

Parents:
  Father: Silverio MOJARRO
  Mother: Juliana ESTRADA

Grandparents:
  Father's Father: Juan MOJARRO
  Father's Mother: Maria Dolores GONZALES
  Mother's Father: Jose ESTRADA
  Mother's Mother: Juana Maria

Source Information:
  Batch Number: C607124
  Source Dates: 1809 - 1818
  Film or Fiche Number: 443811
  Collection Details: Catolica

Here are some more Mojarro Estrada children, ie siblings to Maria 
Nieves:

+Jose Paulin MOJARRO NUNES
Gender: M Birth/Christening: 22 Jun 1817 Tlaltenango de Sanchez 
Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
 
+MARIA CLEMENCIA MOJARRO ESTRADA
Gender: Female Christening: 23 NOV 1819 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, 
Zacatecas, Mexico

+JUAN JOSE MOJARRO ESTRADA
Gender

-----Original Message-----
From: ranchos@...om
[mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kitty
Cortez
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 6:49 AM
To:
ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Cortes and Sandoval,
Tlaltenango, Zac

Jose Munoz, 

check out the files section for Rich and Kitty Cortez
under SANDOVAL, Francisco.    We also have Cortes and Sandoval in
the Tlaltenango area.   Do we have a connection with your
wife?

 

2. Pedro SANDOVAL  (Francisco de).

Pedro
married²  (1) Juana
CORTES  daughter of Juan
CORTES and Maria

Good information.

If you have ever read a list of the first settlers
that the Spanish sent, you'll see a cross section of
many Europeans, north Africans, and some Asians
(mostly Filipinos), that evenly mixed together and
with the local inhabitants (Indians).

We are a composite of many peoples.

Alberto.

--- Victor Villarreal  wrote:

> I join you, Alicia, in welcoming Joseph's "tocayo"
> José.
> 
> I don't know if you've heard this one, which I
> learned thru a 
> friend.  Paraphrasing Forrest Gump's memorable
> quote: "life is like a 
> box of chocolates...", our new quote is "Mexican
> genealogy is like a 
> big bowl of tamales, you never know what you're
> gonna get".  You may 
> pull out a pork tamale, or beef, or cheese, beans,
> coconut, sugar and 
> raisins.....
> 
> Victor
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo
>  wrote:
> > So well put Jose Munoz and welcome to this group.
> >  
> > I believe that anyone who is searching for their

2. Pedro SANDOVAL  (Francisco de).

Pedro
married²  (1) Juana
CORTES  daughter of Juan CORTES
and Maria PONSE on 3 Jun 1709 in Tlaltenango, Zacatecas.

Pedro Sandoval
and Juana Cortes have a daughter Ysabel Gregoria SANDOVAL Cortes b.
15Dec1715doc, married 10 Nov 1736 doc to Antonio de Vargas CASTANEDA.  We
follow Ysabel's brother Joseph Geronimo SANDOVAL's line.  He was born 5 Jun
1626doc, married 27 Dec 1770doc to Teodora Rosalia GONZALES Mendes.  Joseph
Geronimo Sandoval's first wife was Juana Maria
Mojarra.

We also have Luna
from Tlaltenango, Zac, but I don't find the Luna connection with our
Cortes/Sandoval line. 

Are we
cousins?

Rich and Kitty
Cortez

Rocklin,
CA

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I join you, Alicia, in welcoming Joseph's "tocayo" José.

I don't know if you've heard this one, which I learned thru a 
friend.  Paraphrasing Forrest Gump's memorable quote: "life is like a 
box of chocolates...", our new quote is "Mexican genealogy is like a 
big bowl of tamales, you never know what you're gonna get".  You may 
pull out a pork tamale, or beef, or cheese, beans, coconut, sugar and 
raisins.....

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo  wrote:
> So well put Jose Munoz and welcome to this group.
>  
> I believe that anyone who is searching for their roots in Mexico 
has to be open minded. One can't believe that we're 100% this or 100% 
that. Just by virtue of the fact that we have or are descendants from 
Mexico a land that was invaded by Europeans less than 5 centuries 
ago. A land that was populated by many proud Indian tribes with such 
rich cultures, languages and history. A land that because of it's 
riches was invaded, pilfered

I'm new to this group and read many of the groups
messages.. In my family lines there were hijo and
hijas naturales along with hijo/hijas legitimos. For
example 3 naturals out of family 12. I have a copy of
the Church Marriage Record.... so why a natural
baptism for 3 of them. I have a gggrandfather baptized
as a Don? Why at birth is someone named a don? Heir
apparent? Laborers, Sirvientes, miners.

I have a family line who think they are French. Why?
Because of Grandma's Green eyes! The truth of the
matters is they can not accept the fact they are
Indian decent mixed with espanoles. 

I'm Mexican, born and raised in the U.S., and I'm
proud to be Mexican. My 4th greatgrandfather was
espanol. His brothers and sisters married
espanoles/las. But Ysidro Munoz married an Yndia. My
3th Great, Roque Munoz 1760, a mestizo was at times
recorded on Bautismo records as espanol, coyote, and
lobo? Why such a thing? They were from Rancho de
Banon, Zac., 2nd great Francisco Munoz 1786 a mestizo,
from

I have seen both Dolores and Maria used as men's names
on many records.  Often Maria comes from the given
name Jose Maria  My great-great grandfather's given
name was Jose Dolores.  His marriage record shows that
he used only Dolores when he married my great-great
grandmother.  

--- zendean  wrote:

>  
> Fellow searchers;
>   I have encountered some thing strange in my
> extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means
> that the child has no father. But at times there is
> an man's name written in below the child's name in
> the bapised child list, but not in body of the
> narrative where the names of the parents is listed.
> In your experience, does this mean that the father
> was named , but does not acknowledge that child ?
> Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father
> listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or
> "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ?
> I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a
> woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a

To add to Victor's comments: I saw a baptismal record in which the body of the form did not include the biological father's name.  The child was identified as "natural".  At the end of the record I saw a sentence in which someone (presumably) the priest wrote that so-and-so had admitted to being the father of the child.  Human nature is frail at times and many rules are seriously bent.  I have also read that priests were very scarce in many of the mission areas.  The priest could show up to marry and baptize once or twice a year.  ometimes once in two or three years.  The absence of a priest did not prevent couples from joining their lives and bearing children.  Thus since the church did not wish to upset people it developed the term "hijo/a natural".  These children were not considered illegitimate although in many church records you will find entries testifying that a father accepted a child as legitimate.  This made it possible for the hijo natural to enjoy whatever inheritance

I wish to add a few comments.  Freedom of expression also includes freedom of using the delete button.  There are many things in this existence which cannot be changed.  Yet mature adults discuss them because of another gift of the creator- intellectual curiosity.  Iagree that so long as folks are respectful of one another good can come of speaking about a subject that might make others uncomfortable.  I would hate to see open-ness stifled.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Villarreal 
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 8:08 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Racial Classifications





No need to be sad, Carol.



It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race 

can be considered tabu.  But we all are mature persons, tolerant of 

each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that 

reflects ill will in any message.  



On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring

No need to be sad, Carol.

It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race 
can be considered tabu.  But we all are mature persons, tolerant of 
each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that 
reflects ill will in any message.  

On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring historical 
facts into the open so we learn the painful mistakes of our ancestors 
and avoid stumbling with the same blocks in our time.

Well, this is just my opinion.  If Joseph thinks we should not 
mention any of this I will respect his wish.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Lester  wrote:
> I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much 
time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we 
would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each 
other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation 
such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very 
wise "human"

Rock on, Carol!!!:) Marge:)





On Jun 23, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Carol Lester wrote:

I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..."   Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?  My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us.  He doesn't make junk...we do.  As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!   



-----Original Message-----

From: Emilia

Sent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM

To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications



I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I

I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..."   Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?  My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us.  He doesn't make junk...we do.  As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!    

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilia 
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications

I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I have roots in 
Mexico going back to the early 1700's, he and I look so different.  
In

Jose Luis,

About "hija natural" or "hijo natural" I've always known that it 
meant a child born out of wedlock not that the child has no father.
I've seen baptisms records of "hijos naturales" where both parents 
are listed.

Identifying the gender that corresponds to a particular name can be 
tricky and there's not a single answer that applies to every case.  
We would have to take a look at the actual manuscript film to 
decide.  A rule of thumb is that the father's name is always listed 
first.

Regarding the use of "Y" versus "I" in names such as Ysabel or 
Ysidro, you have to realize that back in the old days there were no 
standard grammar rules and whatever rules there were I think the 
priests applied them at their own discretion.  The older the 
documents you look at the wider variability you will find in their 
caligraphy/script.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, zendean  wrote:
>  
> Fellow searchers;
>   I have encountered some thing strange in my

 
Fellow searchers;
  I have encountered some thing strange in my extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means that the child has no father. But at times there is an man's name written in below the child's name in the bapised child list, but not in body of the narrative where the names of the parents is listed. In your experience, does this mean that the father was named , but does not acknowledge that child ? Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ? I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a better formula than if the name ends in "o"= boy or "a"=girl ? The child is either "Hija" or Hijo". the times that I have trouble is when the name is not clear and the parish father puts "hn" or "hl", in those cases I can't tell the gender.  
Also, at times the parent is listed as "Jesus Montenegro or Juan Eliso Montenegro". Do you know if

Armando, I had no idea that the peoples of Los Altos were considered 
elitist... you see the first Gutierrez record I've found for my 
Gutierrez family says they are from Los Haciendas de los Altos, 
Jalisco and registered the birth in Atoyac.  Guess they came by the 
attitudes from way back... Many people think of racism as one sided 
but like you, I know first hand that discrimination comes from both 
sides of the street..

Linda

I find it interesting that after 500 years we Mexicans are still 
trying to explain our skin color.
My maternal grandmother was poor as a church mouse but was very 
proud of her white skin and my mothers blond hair and blue eyes, 
they were from Jalisco.  My fathers family was from Zacatecas, 
darker skinned with Mestizo blood lines.  When my father married my 
mother my maternal grandmother was very upset because he was dark 
skinned.  Her first question when babies were born was always "what 
color are they."  It's no wonder with this background as a child 
raised in a color concious California when people told me I 
didn't "look" like a Mexican I was proud, not something I am proud 
of now... As I grew up and learned the history of my genealogy I 
learned to take pride in all that I am and not the color of my skin, 
and now when someone askes me what nationality I am and they say the 
usual "you don't look like a Mexican" I always respond, "What does a 
Mexican look like?"  I also