Perez de Ortega

The following information on the children of Alonso Perez de Ortega may be posted elsewhere. If so, this will be old news.

Comments

Comment

Thank you Mary Lou. this is great information. Francisco Macías Valadez and Jacinta de Ortega are the parents of my ancestor Juana de ORtega that's married to my ancestor Nicolas Ponce. this helps me out a lot.

Danny C. Alonso

Comment

Glad this helped you, Danny. Francisco Macias and Jacinta de Ortega are not my ancestors (that I know of) so have not researched them. They had many children, but I only listed two which I extracted from a document found in Aguascalientes, Caja 1, #7, 1662:

16 Aug 1662 Jacinta de Ortega vecina de esta villa viuda de Francisco Macias. Her daughter Ines de Ortega married Nicolas de Abalos. Dote included property sold to Miguel Lopez de la Cerda vecino de esta villa. El Lic. Jose Macias presbitero, su hijo.

I, too, have Ponce. They are in my Lagos lines. Haven’t found anything to indicate they have an Aguascalientes connection.

Mary Lou Montagna

Medina, Colotlan, Jalisco, Mexico

I just uploaded y Medina Family tree, if you have relatives that i do not have please me know.

Comments

Comment

Itzcoatzin,

your links dont work for me. Im not sure if they work for other people

Danny C. Alonso

Garibay Gutierrez

Antes que nada quiero presentarme ya que este es mi primer hilo, es un gusto estar aquí y espero poder compartir todo lo que pueda.

Comments

Comment

I found the parents of Rafael Garibay, they was Don Antonio Garibay and Doña Antonia Sanchez.

Rafael Garibay widower of Ygnacia Gutierres he remarried with Petra Chavolla

Married on July 28, 1828 in Guadalajara at 50 years old with Petra Chavolla daughter of Don Silvestre Chavolla and Doña Barbara Sanchez de Ulloa

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DLF1-B?mode=g&i=619&wc=3JW…

Comment

I'm sorry I don't speak Spanish but do understand enough to do research.
I have lots of Garibay from Zamora and Chilchota, Michoacan and then many of them came into Jalisco. My research is for the earlier years but when you reach that point you might want to check my files on Rootwebs.com. They came into my Mother line when an Ochoa married into her line but not directly. I did mark the ones related to my Mother and her name is Dolores Gutierrez (1924) My file is called Mexico and just go to the index and check Garibay, there are a couple of Ochoa Garibay too.
Linda Castanon-Long
Olympia Wa.

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Many thx linda, I searched for months but can not find anything, I think maybe Francisco Garibay Gutierrez was not born in Zamora as his marriage says

Comment

if someone can help me to find more information about Rafael Garibay and Ygnacia Gutierrez

Here additional data about their grandchildren

Jose Maria Higinio Garibay Estevez(b.1830)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4990gwf7n3iybcu/jose%20maria%20higinio.JPG?dl…

Teresa de Jesus Lucrecia (b.1831)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l93hhgvyc54i2s5/teresa%20de%20jesus.JPG?dl=0

Jesus Ygnacia Cresencia (b.1828)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n2b44olykfg0rw/ygnacia%20cresencia.JPG?dl=0

Bernardo Maria Donaciano (b. 1834)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ks06wr0qfjkyxrk/bernardo.JPG?dl=0

Mariana de Quero- Jerez

Hola,

Comments

Comment

Thanks Linda. I'm stuck in the same place. If I find the source for her parent I will let you know.

susana

Padrinos on Baptisms

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

I'm lookin at my ancestor Catarina de Mendoza baptism

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-68J3-HHZ

and it says her padrino was Thomas de Villalobo

Comments

Comment

Hi Danny,

The padrinos were responsible for the spiritual welfare of the baptized and were meant to be responsible for educating the child in Catholic doctrine, and, I guess technically be responsible for the child, if something were to happen to the parents, therefore, the padrinos were often close relatives or family friends or those with the ability to take care of the child in the event of the parents death.
 
Regarding Thomas de Villalobos, I don't believe that is Catalina de Mendoza's grandfather. Her padrinos are Josepha Lopez de la Cruz and Thomas de Villalobos, I believe those are Catalina's aunt and uncle. Josepha Lopez de la Cruz aka Martin del Campo who was the wife of Thomas de Villalobos, who was the son of the Thomas de Villalobos that was Catalina's grandfather.

Chris

Comment

Danny, most padrinos were not the grandparents, but quite often they were.
That practice still exists today, especially if it's the first child of the
couple. It's considered very respectful and honors the grandparents.

Alicia

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Danny Alonso wrote:

> Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
>
>
> I'm lookin at my ancestor Catarina de Mendoza baptism
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-68J3-HHZ
>
>
> and it says her padrino was Thomas de Villalobos who is her grandfather and
> I was wondering if most padrinos are grandparents and relatives or can they
> be anyone
>
>
> Danny C. Alonso

Comment

Hello Danny,
When I began my genealogical research I made the mistake of not paying as much
attention to the padrinos as I should have. I have since found that padrinos were often aunts,
uncles, even older siblings! And this information has helped to fill in blanks in my
research. Happy searching!
Alice BB
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 1/22/16, Danny Alonso wrote:

Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Padrinos on Baptisms
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, January 22, 2016, 6:52 PM

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

I'm lookin at my ancestor Catarina de Mendoza baptism

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-68J3-HHZ

and it says her padrino was Thomas de Villalobos who is her
grandfather and
I was wondering if most padrinos are grandparents and
relatives or can they
be anyone

Danny C. Alonso

Comment

I agree with Alice. I noticed people with the last name "de la Mora" that came up in index searches but upon reading the record, it was not a match. I noticed that padrino couples matched those in my tree. I thought this may not just be a coincidence. I made a second tree of this unattached family making careful notes about padrinos and I found the connection 2 generations back. Now I always make a note of padrinos and wish that when we help with indexing, this could be included so that it is searchable.
I don't know if you are a beginner, but also record the ranch, any markings in margins and "page __ of __." The last will help if you have to look for the record image again.

Possible ancestry of Phelipe Marquez de los Olivos of Colotlan

Phelipe Marquez de los Olivos and his wife Francisca Xaviera Sanchez are the ancestors of many families associated with Colotlan.

Comments

Comment

Dear David,

In your post you identify Diego Hurtado and María de Lerma.as being the parents of Maria Lerma married to Jose Marquez on the second of Juky 1570.. If this couple is related to the Jose Marquez de Olivos that you are researching then can there be other connections to families that we have been researching?

Many of us have been searching for the parents of Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza (wife of Toribio Hernandez ArellAno). Because we keep finding that our ancestors are often related some how because of endogamy, maybe this marriage record that you found could be a thread to help us find Isabel's parents. According to some genealogists, her father is a Diego Hurtado de Mendoza but no mention of her mother.

I remember a genealogist by the surname of Navarro once stated he found a record in Utah where the mother's surname was Luna. Could this Maria de Lerma and Maria Luna be the same person and someone misread the surname? Do out have a copy of the marriage record ?
You stated that the marriage record is not microfilmed so I am assuming that someone would have to go to Mexico City to research this record to see if we can find more information.

Where can I get a copy of Holcombes letters to further investigate this possibility?

Thanks,
Rick A Ricci

Comment

Hello Rick,

You can get a copy of Holcombe’s Letters by following this link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6invajbk0zzo4jm/Letters%20Edited%20for%20Dist…

The marriage you are referring to is on page 91. I do not have an original copy of the marriage record and only have Holcombe’s notes to go on here:

Holcombe’s letters Page 91:
“In the same volume of marriages from the Sagrario(Cathedral) parish in Mexico City (not microfilmed) … is this matrimony:
Entry No. 140: 2 July 1570. Joseph Márquez, a son of Joseph Márquez and Luisa de Acosta, and María de Lerma, daughter of Diego Hurtado and María de Lerma.. “Testigos fueron el Sr. canónigo García Machuca, sedero y Cristóbal Rodríguez Proaño.” Could be the parents of you know-who [referring to Joseph Marquez de los Olivos (husband of Maria de Ornelas)]. Suggest you see if pasajeros a Indias data for the parents of both is in the digests and look for christenings of the married couple’s children in the Sagrario, to see if they had a son Joseph (he’d be the third in a row). [If] … not in the Sagrario, try the Santa Veracruz parish.”

As he says the record is not microfilmed so presumably one would have to go to Mexico City to thoroughly research this reference. Until then, we will not know if Maria “de Lerma” is really a misreading of Maria “de Luna.”

As for a connection between Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza and the Marquez de los Olivos line. Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza was a grandmother of Maria de Ornelas (wife of Joseph Marquez de los Olivos). This couple had a son Diego Marquez de los Olivos, whose progeny spreads through Lagos de Moreno. It still needs to be determined if Capitan Miguel Marquez de los Olivos, whose progeny spreads through Colotlan, is a son of this couple, or a natural son of the husband, or the son of a different couple all together.

Some food for thought:
It also still needs to be determined if Joseph Marquez de los Olivos (husband of Maria de Ornelas) is the son of Joseph Marquez and Maria de Lerma/“de Luna?”. If he is, and if Diego Hurtado (father of Maria de Lerma/“de Luna?”) is also the same Diego Hurtado (father of Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza, whose paternity I feel still needs to be more solidly determined), than Joseph Marquez de los Olivos and Maria de Ornelas would be cousins once removed. If this is the case, theoretically there could be a dispensa hiding somewhere for their marriage, 28 April 1614, Lagos de Moreno.

There are still many “if’s” to be flushed out here, but I hope this helps.

Regards,

David

Comment

I have Jesus Marquez and Josefa Marquez children of Jesus Marquez and Grandchildren to Eugenio Marquez. I have baptism record that show they are my ancestors in Family search.

Can anyone share the records for Eugenio Marquez, records in familysearch do not go that far back.

My grandfather Heron De Santiago Marquez pass away JULY 16 2015 at 6:00 am RIP Born in El Carrizal, colotlan, Jalisco, Mexico.

Comment

Julio Marquez & Teodora Placencia Rodriguez (hija de Crispin Placencia Vela & Angela Rodriguez Perez) hijo (carrizal, Colotlan)
1) Eulalio Marquez Placencia & Carlota Leaños Marquez (hija de Bruno Leaños Huizar & Josefa Marquez Carlos ) hija
1 1) Gregoria Marquez Leaños (May 23 y Jun 2 1906, Colotlan)(film 200) (oo Jan 28 1922, Colotlan) (image 468 ) & J Cruz de Santiago Saldaña (hijo de Buenaventura Santiago Rivera & Rafaela Saldaña Casas)
1 1 1) Heron de Santiago Marquez (1924 y + Jul 16 2015) & Ma Consuelo Medina Marquez (hija de David Medina Galvez & Martina Marquez Moncada )
1 1 1 1) Eloisa de Santiago Medina
1 1 2) Felipe de Santiago Marquez (1935), (oo 1961, Colotlan) & Rebeca Marquez Alvarez (Aug 7 1944,Colotlan)(hija de Julian Marquez & Ma ¿? ¿?)
1 1 3) Juan de Santiago Marquez (Mar 8 y Apr 8 1930) (oo 1955, Colotlan) & Consuelo Marquez Saldaña (hija de Mauro & Desideria)
1 2) Juana Marquez Leaños (Jun 6 1904, Colotlan, image 593 RC) (oo Feb 16 1924, Colotlan) (image 515) & Emiliano Mares Guardado (hijo de Pedro & Rita?)
1 3) Juan Marquez Leaños (Jun 12 y Jul 1916, Colotlan, image 524 RC)) (oo May 2 1956, Colotlan) & Amparo Davila Marquez (Oct 25 1927) (hija de Bernabe Davila & Genoveva)

Comment

I triple checked Pedro Feliz Bonilla’s Ordenes and I am just not seeing any mention of his great-grandfather Joseph Marquez de los Olivos. The penmanship is very good in the document, so it should be easy. However, I only see his parents mentioned.

What am I reading wrong here?

Pedro Feliz Bonilla Ordones:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18376-28370-6?cc=1874591&wc=…

Images 6-17.

Comment

oops i forgot there's another part to the ordenes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18378-16691-57?cc=1874591&wc…

this page lists francisco tadeoo's parents
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18378-16480-8?cc=1874591&wc=…

this page talks about francisco's brother manuel. it also states manuel has a son named fernando as well
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18378-16354-35?cc=1874591&wc…

this page lists who manuela marquez's parents are
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18378-16478-58?cc=1874591&wc…

and this page lists joseph marquez and gertrudis rincon as felipe's parents
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18378-16245-9?cc=1874591&wc=…

Comment

Yes!

Thank you so much for reposting the Ordenes of Pedro Feliz Bonilla.

This document truly does list the parents of Phelipe Marquez de los Olivos and Francisca Xaviera Sanchez. They are as Holcombe had said. This solidifies a lot of information on this family.

Thank’s again, I really appreciate it,

David

Comment

Thank’s for posting the link to Pedro Feliz Bonilla’s Ordenes. Unfortunatly, it does not name Pedro’s great-grandparents as Joseph Marquez de los Olivos, Gertrudis Rincon, Bartolome Sanchez, and Josepha Cabanas, as Holcombe had in his letters. Perhaps there is another part to Pedro’s Ordenes hidden somewhere else.

Does anyone have an idea to where Holcombe could have rendered the information on Pedro Feliz Bonilla’s great-grandparents from? Or did he just assume who they were?

Regards,

David

Comment

There seems to be no relationshiop between this Juan Márquez (de los Olivos) de Ulloa, married to Josefa Bautista de Ruvalcaba, and the Márquez de los Olivos who lived in and around Colotlán.

Juan was born in Aguascalientes and baptized on 22nd April, 1645, the son of Nicolás de Ulloa (son of Alonso de Ulloa y Toro y Juana Muñoz de Jerez) and María REuíz de Esparza (daughter of Lope Ruíz de Esparza and Francisca Gabay).

I wonder where he took the "de los Olivos" from.

Comment

hfaizcorbe, how do you know that this baptism record was for him? if this is correct then juan and francisco ulloa are brothers.

also joseph marquez de los olivos is listed in the ordenes, you just have to read it carefully. i forgot what page it was on.

Comment

There was a question about where the Márquez de los Olivos comes from on
Juan de Ulloa, spouse of Josefa Bautista de Rubalcaba and what his
relationship was to the Márquez de los Olivos of Colotlán; I've never been
aware he ever used Márquez de los Olivos or that there was a connection,
does anyone know if this is correct or what the source is?

Paige

Comment

Hi Paige,

I can't answer whether there is a connection or whether there isn't a connection between Juan de Ulloa and the Márquez de los Olivos, but Juan de Ulloa does use the name Juan Márquez de Ulloa on his marriage to Josepha Bautista González de Rubalcava on 01 Feb 1664. Second from the left:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19053-2215-17?cc=1874591&wc=…

Chris

Comment

Katy,

I am sorry it took me so long to answer your query.

Josefa Márquez de los Olivos married Florencio Sánchez Castellanos.

Unfortunately I do not recall who posted the following:

"Hoy revisando las dispensas matrimoniales de los Sanchez Castellanos encontre la dispensas de 1794 pag 1112
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18417-62535-33?cc=1874591&wc…
de Jose Miguel de Soto y Maria Gregoria Sanchez donde se especifica que tienen grados de consanguinidad.

Aqui explican que de Juan Marquez(de los Olivos) y Josefa de Ruvalcaba nacieron Josefa Marquez (de los Olivos) y Marcela Marquez (de los Olivos)esto debio pasar a finales de 1600.

Esto lo traigo ya que Josefa Marquez de los Olivos (ab1700s-1749) y Florencio Sanchez Castellanos (ab1690-1750)fueron esposos y ambos murieron en Monte Escobedo, algunos de sus hijos tuvieron mucha descendencia en Jerez, Zacatecas.

Florencio Sanchez Castellanos fue hijo de Nicolas Sanchez Castellanos de Haro (1643-ab1720) y de Juana Maria Bañuelos (?-1728) ambos murieron en Monte Escobedo.

Nicolas Sanchez Castellanos fue hijo de Juan Sanchez Castellanos (ab1603-ab1649) y de Tomasina de Haro (aka Tomasina de Saucedo)(nieta de Juan de Miramontes)."

Whoever posted it is right.

Juan Marquez and Josefa Bautista de Ruvalcaba married in Teocaltiche on 1st February 1664. He appears as Juan Marquez de Ulloa.

In their christening of their daughter Josefa in Monte Escobedo (Tlaltenango files) on 31st January 1689, Juan appears as Juan Marquez de los Olivos, whereas Josefa keeps calling herself Josefa Bautista de Rovalcaba.

Juan Márquez was baptized in Aguascalientes on 22nd April, 1645, as the son of Nicolas de Ulloa and Maria Ruiz. I will try to find and send you the support of this.

regards,
Hector

Comment

Hi Katy,

What confirms that our Juan Marquez de Ulloa, o de los Olivos is a son of Nicolas de Ulloa and Maria Ruiz de Esparza is contained in the information posted in Nuestros Ranchos as "Documentation of Petronila (Gabadi) Moctezuma Submitted by Armando on Mié, 2014-01-08 15:15." regarding a daughter of Pedro de Ulloa Marquez, brother of Juan. His mother María Ruíz de Esparza was married to Nicolás de Ulloa.

Regards,
Héctor

Comment

I have Pedro de Ulloa y Marquez as being born circa 1635 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco.
Pedro de Ulloa y Marquez is the son of Nicolas Ulloa born in 1605 (married in 1630 in Teocaltiche) and Maria Ruiz de Esparza.
I have Nicolas as the son of Alonso de Ulloa and Juana Munoz de Jerez.
I have Maria Ruiz de Esparza born in 1613 in Aguascalientes as the daughter of Lope (el menor) Ruiz de Esparza (born about 1589) (buried 14/Aug1651 Aguascalientes.) and Francisca de Gabai, born about 1573 Guadalupe, Jailisco buried 30/Mar/1652

I descend from Pedro de Ulloa y Marques and Josepha Sepulveda Lisaldi y Roxas' daughter Thomasina de la Rosa y Ulloa and her husband Bartolome Rodriguez Bajo.

The Marquez de Olivas comes from Nicolas Ulloa. It must come from one of his grandparents as his parents have other surnames in my records. Does anyone have Nicolas Ulloa's grandparents?

Thanks,
Rick A Ricci

Comment

how did you guys figure out that juan marquez de los olivos is a brother of francisco de ulloa and confirm that the marriage in teocaltiche is indeed of of josefa marquez's parents? i'm not sure how you guys came to that conclusion. if you can explain that to me, that'll help me fill in the blanks for a marriag dispensation i found that wasn't clear.

one marriage record listed a grand child of juan marquez and josefa baptista robalcava being a second cousin to a grandchild of francisco ulloa and juana flores

edit: ignore what i wrote before, i read the posts more carefull and realized my question had already been answered. so yes i added the names at least to my tree, but not the sources yet. put this edit since i can't delete post

Comment

Solo aclaro que Josepha Marquez de los Olivos esposa de Florencio Sanchez-Castellanos y Bañuelos tuevisron su descendencia principalmente en Monte Escobedo, Zacatecas muy cercano a Jerez.

Josepha Marquez de los Olivo tuvo como madre a Josepha Ruiz de Esparza de acuerdo a una dispensa matrimonial y hermana de Tereza Ruiz de Esparza.

Tereza Ruiz de Esparza fue hija de Nicolas de Ulloa y Maria Ruiz de Esparza.

Todo lo anterior debido a una dispesa matrimonial.

Comment

As for where you can find the órden sacerdotal document, I would look on the Family Search Diócesis de Guadalajara microfilms, the ones labeled Órdenes:

https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysea…

Several cover 1779.

Also there is a document regarding Pedro Félix Bonilla among the Órdenes Sacerdotales in the microfilms of the Arzobispado de Durango (1780-1782), but I don't know if they are online. Check page 322 of this PFD:
http://lib.nmsu.edu/depts/archives/documents/ahad.pdf

Hopefully there are two copies of the document, one in Guadalajara and one in Durango.

Regards,
Victoriano Navarro

Comment

---Rodrigo Sánchez-Castellanos de Rodas (22/Feb/1662- Before 1703) (Casó con Juana de Luna de Haro( AB 1664-?)(aka Juana López de Luna)
-----Juana Sanchez Castellanos de Luna y Juan Marquez de los Olivos

Juana Sanchez-castellanos could be the sister of Francisca Xaviera because they lived in Colotlan almost at the same time and were maried both with Marquez de los OLivos.

Comment

Sr. Huizar:

We seem to have common ancestor is there a way you can share the info
on your family so that i can udate my familuy tree.

I have a tree in family search that i keep up to date. If you can do a
format i can undestand better like the one i show in my De Santiago family.
Or the files in family serch. Thanks

Jose Luis Zambrano

LD27-WZP

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago "El Euforia".

2016-01-20 19:45 GMT-08:00 :

> Phelipe Marquez (de los Olivos)( +1722,Colotlan, image 27) & Francisca
> Xaviera Sanchez (+1723) (hija de Bartholome Sanchez & Josepha Cabañez)
> hijos
> (Sauz de los Marquez, Sta Ma, Jal.)
>

Comment

these ara the documented facts:

Jose Marquez??? (ver image 269 del archivo : Diócesis de GuadalajaraMatrimonios 1803, parte 1) hijo
1) Phelipe Marquez (de los Olivos)( +1722) & Francisca Xaviera Sanchez (+1723) hijos (Sauz)
1 1) Joseph Antonio Marquez (de los O) Sanchez (1700 -1772) (oo Mar 3 1726) & Juana Francisca Xaviera Gamboa Ortega (– 1783) (hija de Agustin y Simona) hijo
1 1 1) (Felix (o Feliciano) Ascencio Marquez (de los O) Gamboa (Apr 7 1766) & Ma Albina Victoria Romero de la Torre (hija de Juachin y Dominga?)) hijo
1 1 1 2) Agripita Marquez Romero (1788) (oo Sep14 1803) (film 248) & Gregorio Flores Hernandez (1778) (hijo de Juan Antonio y Ma Juana) hijo
1 1 1 2 1) Ma Cesarea Flores Marquez 1813 –
1 2) Josepha Marquez Sanchez (May 9 1720)
1 3) Juan Joseph Marquez (de los O) Sanchez (+ Jan 6 1749) (oo) (oo Nov 20 1735) & vda. Simona Ramirez Ortega(hija de Diego & Maria) (Viuda de Agustin Gamboa)
1 4) (a) J. Francisco Xavier Marquez (De Los Olivos) Sanchez & (1º oo) & (a) Manuela Perez (+ May 24 1750) hijos
1 4) ( b ) J. Fco. Xavier Marquez (de los O) Sanchez (2º oo Feb22 1751 )& (b) Ma Narcisa Sanchez Sandoval (hija de Felipe Manuel y Josefa de los Santos) hijos
1 5 ) Joseph Ygnacio Marquez (de los O) Sanchez (oo) & Ma Ysabel Florentina Valenzuela hijos
1 6 ) Anna de San Joaquin Marquez (de los O) Sanchez (bapt. Oct 25 1722)
1 7) Joseph Marquez (de los O) Sanchez ( oo Jan 28 1732, Colotlan )(film 117) & Monica Josepha Rosales, (hija de Joseph & Phelipa de la Trinidad) hijos
1 8) Miguel Marquez (de los O) Sanchez & Juana Ledezma ( Colotlan) hijo ( las cañas)
1 8 1) Phelipe Marquez (de los O) Ledezma (*oo May 12 1727) (film 72) & Gertrudis de Luna Valera (hija de Domingo y Thomasa) hijos (del Epazote, Colotlan, Jal) (*padrinos: Antonio Marquez y (Antonia) Marcela Marquez (su tia) y no es Marquez sino Reza, esposa de Mathias Nicolas)
1 8 1 3) Francisco Marquez Luna (20 y 28 de Jun 1747, Colotlan) (image 153)
1 9) Ma Manuela Marquez & Francisco Bonilla Saldaña (hijo de Salvador & Rosa) hijo
1 9 1) Pedro Felis Bonilla Marquez (cura)(Jan 31 y Feb 26 1743,Colotlan) (image 649)

Comment

also gregorio flores and agapita marquez are related. felipe marquez has a brother named francisco. francisco had a daughter named josefa. josefa married pascual flores and had at least two sons: juan antonio flores & diego martin(ez) flores.

juan antonio married juana hernandez and diego was married twice: first too gertrudis leonor de la torre (alias montelongo) and then to felipe enriquez mier.

Comment

victoriano, here's a link on family search to pedro feliz bonilla's ordenes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18376-28463-10?cc=1874591&wc…

also can anyone tell me how juan marquez de los olivos(husband of josefa baptista robalcava) is related to felipe marquez de los olivos?

I'm thinking juan was born in colotlan also. he and josefa had at least 5 children: Juan jr., Miguel, Angela, Josefa, and Marcela.

I'm not sure when he was born, but i do know that his daughter angela got married in 1689 in tlaltenango, so i'm guessing he was born in the 1640's.

also either he or his wife is a sibling of either francisco ulloa or juana flores.

Comment

Hi Katy
I was looking in my Marquez files
I found this Juan & Josepha, do you mean this guys? let me know or send more info, thanks

Juan Marquez & Josefa Sanchez de Ruvalcaba hijo
1)Pedro Marquez Sanchez & Clara de Chavez hijo (Guacaxco, Colotlan)
1 1) Gregorio Marquez Chavez (oo Feb 24 1745, Colotlan) (image 350) & Ma Josepha de Haro Avila (hija de Francisco & Petra) hijos

Comment

They are the same Juan Márquez and Josefa Bautista de Ruvalcaba (her parents were Mateo de Ruvalcaba and Mari López, some of whose relatives used the surname Sánchez).

Petrona de Sotomayor

I'm trying to find the parents of Petrona de Sotomayor, the wife of
Bernardo Garcia de Leon, does anyone in the group know if Petrona de
Sotomayor that married Alvaro Marin de Peñalosa is the same Pet

Comments

Comment

You are very welcome. It was and still is truly my pleasure to share. It complements the joy of discovery.

I do not have access to my records right now. So I'm typing from memory. But I do recall some interesting info re Andres Martin, the husband of Maria de las Ruelas. The original couple. No, I don't know who their parents were, but in a later document Maria refers to her husband as Andres Martin Barriga.

In her very senior years Maria received an inheritance from a grandson. Shortly after that she was involved in a legal battle to prevent some of her children from taking over her affairs. I like Maria. She was feisty and gave those ingrates a documented tongue lashing. And that's where she mentions her husband's name. I'll provide details in about ten days.

Here's how I need help. I can scan my notes but then what? How do I make them available to Nuestros Ranchos? I'm not that savvy with the mechanics of posting. My first attempt was a disaster. I need very specific instructions. Thanks.

Mary Lou

Comment

Hello Mary Lou,

That is really such great information to know. I wish I knew that kind of details about all my ancestors. knowing that kind of stuff really makes the geneology exciting. Do you know if Maria won the legal battle?

About adding documents on the forum, I've done it before If you sign into the Nuestros Ranchos Forum, once you signed in on the right hand side under your name, you can click on Post a forum topic and then type your subject and pick geneology research forum, then under the Body of the message it'll say More information about formatting options and below that it'll say Notifications and below that File attachments, if you click on File attachments you can upload documents there. But, I noticed last time I did it that only people that were signed in could read it. theres probably easier ways to do it.

Armando uses something called Dropbox that can hold lots of pages of notes, but I don't know how to add them there,but that might be a better option cause then you just have to post a link that people can go to. You might want to ask him how to use it. The Dropbox is probably a better option if its several pages. Also, if you have more information like the stories about Maria de las Ruelas about other ancestors I know we would love to know about them. it really makes you feel like you know about them that way. Thank you so much Mary Lou.

Danny C. Alonso

Comment

Maria de las Ruelas won! Her son retracted his appeal, stating that he didn't want to alienate his mother and lose her affection. (He may have been too late.) I don't remember reading anything from the other two children involved.

Thanks for the instructions on posting data on Nuestros Ranchos. I have typed research, handwritten notebooks, scribbled abstracts, debatable theories and more that I would like to share. Would like to use both NR and Dropbox. How can I reach Armando?

Mary Lou

Comment

Hello Mary Lou,

Yay, I'm glad Maria won. That's great news. I love these kind of stories. About the Dropbox, I actually don't know Armando's email address. I don't get emails from everyone i think because of a system error, but his is one of the emails I don't recieve. but, I went to Dropbox and it looks pretty easy.

Here is the link: https://www.dropbox.com/?src=shmodel

if you go there it asks if you want to sign in with your google account. I just signed in with my gmail and then followed the instructions. It'll guide you to downloading the Dropbox on your computer. Then I think you just add stuff to the Dropbox on your computer and it allows you to share it with others.

Here is the link to getting started with Dropbox. I'm not an expert but i can still try and help. Maybe if Armando sees this post, he can offer more help

https://www.dropbox.com/s/er72dj7s7mh89r8/Get%20Started%20with%20Dropbo…

Danny C. Alonso

Comment

Hi Paige & Chris,

Here's an article on the genealogy of Juan Montañez, compiled by Mary Lou Montagna, from the Apr 2008 edition of Somoprimos: http://www.somosprimos.com/sp2008/spapr08/spapr08.htm#MEXICO

It's really well-researched, she even has baptism dates and marriage info for almost all of his children.

His daughter, Petrona de Sotomayor, married twice: first to Juan Salcido and then to Alvaro Marin. You can find her 01 Jun 1686 Testamento at the Aguascalientes Acervos Coloniales website.

I've been going through the San Luis Potosi Protocolos Notariales, looking for a digital copy of the testamento of Juan Montañez, but it's not on the 1648 nor 1649 rolls, so it's probably on one of the other rolls.

I did find a document regarding his daughter, Maria de Sotomayor (b. 04 Apr 1640). I thought she might have been the same Maria de Sotomayor, who married Felipe Gomez Galvan, 04 Jun 1682, in Aguascalientes, but she's not. She was married to Juan Diaz Melo, son of Diego Diaz Melo and Andrea de Molina, as per this notary record, dated 11 Sep 1660, San Luis Potosi. It's regarding a slave named Lorenzo, who was given to Maria de Sotomayor, by her grandmother, Maria de Ruelas:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-958X-4RG2?mode=
g&i=325&wc=MXBY-R23

Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comment

Hello, All.

The Montanez, Sotomayor and Lopez de la Cerda are my ancestors. So are the Galvan de Rojas. So I have been reading your comments with much interest and later this month I will submit additional data.

I'm thrilled to see the San Luis Potosi notary archives online. Amazing availability. The SLP records are impressive. Some of them are from the 1500s. Perhaps the arid environment enhanced the longevity of the documents. Possibly because of their fragility not all of them were available for microfilming. Unfortunately, I think that is what happened with the will of Juan Montanez. I, too, cannot find it in the films online. But it and the codicil are in the archives. The testament still had some binding, but portions of the pages were badly deteriorated, crumbling and missing. I also remember finding the remnants of a document re Maria de las Ruelas. It was just a nub really, a few square inches. Everything had crumbled away. I suspect that was where she relinquished her obligations with her grandchildren.

But on a positive note. In one of my visits, an archivist helped me transcribe Don Juan's testament word for word. He read; I wrote. Several pages. I'd be happy to scan and post them....if someone can help me with that.

Be aware that in his will Don Juan only mentions the parents of his wives. Not the grandparents. Thinking back to when I prepared the paper for publication, I remember limiting the data to two generations above and two below. I had researched much more. Don't remember my rationale, but I was probably meeting a deadline and I'm an excellent procrastinator. I cannot take credit for the research on the ancestry of the first of the three wives. That was graciously provided by Jose Francisco Sauceda Andrade and the late Dr. J. Leon Helguera. Both excellent researchers. I did not include all their work.

Regards from Mary Lou Montagna

Comment

Hello Mrs. Montagna,

I descend from the Montanez and Sotomayor and de la Cerda family too and I really enjoyed your article on the Somos Primos and I would really be interested in seeing the whole will of Juan Montanez and any other information that you might have regarding this family. i'm really interested.

Danny C. Alonso

Comment

Hi Paige -

I don’t think the 2 Maria de Sotomayor’s are the same person. And though Juan Montañez and Maria de Sotomayor, could have had 2 daughters who went by the same name, I don’t think that is the case. I think Maria de Sotomayor who married Felipe Gomez Galvan is likely their granddaughter.

On their partida, she’s listed as daughter of Juan Montañez and Maria de San Martin. At first, I naturally thought “Maria de San Martin” was an alias of Maria de Sotomayor, daughter of Andres Martin Camacho and Maria de Ruelas. But Mary Lou mentions this couple in her article, under the entry for Juan Adriano, son of Juan Montañez and Maria de Sotomayor:

“3.    Juan Adriano was baptized 25 June 1634. I located a Pinos burial entry dated 27 Feb 1668 for Maria de San Martin, mujer de Juan Montanez. But, have not been able to confirm a connection with Juan Adriano.”

This Maria de San Martin and Juan Montañez would be the parents of your Maria de Sotomayor. The 1668 burial record establishes that Maria de San Martin and Maria de Sotomayor were not the same person, since the latter was buried 24 Aug 1643. Nor was this the same Juan Montañez, since he named only 3 wives in his Will. This one is likely his son, from his marriage to Maria de Sotomayor, since he named a daughter, "Maria de Sotomayor." To me, that’s the most likely scheme, we just need to find the records to confirm it.

Maria de Sotomayor, daughter of Juan Montañez and Maria de Sotomayor, b 14 Apr 1640, married Juan Diaz Melo around 1659-1660. They neglected to bless their marriage, and did so, 28 Jan 1667, San Francisco, Charcas SLP. Here’s their IM for the blessing:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9GLJ-NBT?mode=g&i=156&wc=3…

Hi Mary Lou,

First of all, thank you for all of your incredible trailblazing work! I descend from Joseph Lopez de Avila, who married Josepha de Sotomayor, and you set me in the right direction, as far as researching these lines. I would love to see the Juan Montañez transcriptions, as well; how can we help you?

Gracias y Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comment

Hi Paige,

You're welcome. I was going through my notes for Sagrario San Luis Potosi, and I located Maria de Sotomayor as madrina on some baptisms. From the looks of it, Felipe Gomez Galvan died some time before Jul 1701, and Maria moved to SLP:

11 Jul 1701 Baptism of Antonio Xavier Mulato, madrina Maria de Sotomayor, viuda de Felipe Gomez Galban (bottom right):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GG2L-95SH?mode=g&i=497&wc=…

29 Mar 1702 Baptism of Joaquin Xavier Mulato, madrina Maria Montanez viuda de Felipe Gomez Caballero (bottom right):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9G2L-9P7F?mode=g&i=518&wc=…

Saludos!

Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comment

Hi Mary Lou,

Thank you for all your hard work and all the information you've provided us over the years. I too descend from the same families as you and I look forward to the additional data you're planning to post.

Chris

Comment

Manny,

That was a very informative article on Juan Montañez. Lots of genealogical
info. Thank you. I did have a question regarding the slave given to María
de Sotomayor. You mention that the María that received the slave was the
daughter of Juan Montañez and granddaughter of María de Ruelas and you
thought she might be the María de Sotomayor that married Felipe Gómez
Galván but she wasn't. Instead, she was married to Juan Díaz Melo. My
question is the María that was married to Felipe Gómez Galván is the
daughter of Juan Montañez and the granddaughter of María de Ruelas, so did
Juan Montañez have two daughters named María or is the María married to
Felipe Gómez Galván the same as the María married Juan Díaz Melo?

Paige

Comment

Hi Paige,

I descend from both couples and they lived around the same time but, Petrona de Sotomayor that married Álvaro Marín de Peñaloza was the daughter of Juan Montañez and María Martín de Sotomayor and the Petrona de Isla y Sotomayor that married Bernardo García de León, I have as the daughter of Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor and Juana de Aguiñaga y Diaques.

This is where it gets kind of complicated. On the testament of Bernardo García de León regarding his wife it says:

yttn declaro para descargo de mi conciencia que soy casado y velado infacie ecclesie según horden de nuestra santa madre yglesia con Petrona de Isla y Sotomaior hija lexitima de Nicolas Martin Camacho y Sotomaior y de Juana de Agui?

Now, it doesn't quite look like Aguiñaga, but, it definitely starts with Agui. Now, you have to look at the names Petrona de Isla y Sotomayor uses to make the connection. On the baptism of their son Cristobal, she goes by Petrona de Islas https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15245-3288-15?cc=1804458&wc=…

But, on the baptism of her son Francisco, she goes by the name Petrona Martín de Aguiñaga: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15245-3450-17?cc=1804458&wc=…

Now since, we know her father is Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor and her mother is Juana de something that starts Agui, and since we know Petrona uses the name Petrona Martín de Aguiñaga, I think it's safe to say that her mother is the Juana de Aguiñaga y Diaques that married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor on 26 Apr 1654 in San Felipe, Guanajuato.

I believe this Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor is also the same as the Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor that's married to Simona López de la Cerda. There's a couple of reasons for this theory. First, he's already in his 40's when he marries Simona López de la Cerda and I think he was already widowed from Juana de Aguiñaga y Diaques, although, it doesn't say that on his marriage to Simona López de la Cerda and I can't find an IM. But, the Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor that's married to Simona López de la Cerda is already known to be the son of Andrés Martín de Sotomayor and María de Isla and if you look at the marriage of Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor and Juana de Aguiñaga y Diaques you can see that this Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor is also listed as the son of Andrés Martín and María de Isla: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-20567-21853-62?cc=1860831…

Now since the testament lists Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor as Nicolas Martin Camacho y Sotomaior he has to descend from the same Andres Martin Camacho, so I don't see how the Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor that married Simona López de la Cerda can be different from the Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor that married Juana de Aguiñaga y Diaques.

Christopher de Cuellar

Descendientes de Juan Jose Manuel Hernandez Hernandez y Benedicta Bustos Hernandez de Arandas, Jalisco?

Hello rduni

I dont really speak spanish that well but I'm taking it in school but it
looks like your looking for information on the above couple and theres a
marriage for a Juan Jose Hernandes an

Comments

Comment

Danny,
Thanks for the Family Search links. I have done some research in Family Search as well but I do not have all the answers. I have spent countless hours reading old Baptism and Marriage records but very seldom do I find when they died. Ancestry has recently added Civil Registration Records from late 19c to mid 20c. But before that, it has been an adventure unless it was someone of some importance.

For instance, I have not found the baptism record of Juan Jose Hernandez Hernandez nor I have found his death certificate. Same thing for Benedicta Bustos.

My post was also to find out if there are living descendants of Juan Jose Hernandez Hernandez (1814-?) and Benedicta Bustos Hernandez (1823-?). My paternal grandmother was their daughter Anastasia Hernandez Bustos (1858-1916) from Arandas.

Thanks,
rduni

Burgueño and Pérez Families

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

Comments

Comment

Hi Danny,

Thank you for the information. Do you know if the original 1610 census document is digitized and available for us to view? Also do you know what source confirms that Catalina Rubio married to Luis Lopez Ramirez confirms that she is the sister of Ana and Maria Burgueno?

Sorry but I don't know the name of Diego Perez's wife. But I do have other Burgueno's that may be of interest.

1. Juana Burgueno aka Perez (http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Burgue%C3%B1o-1) married Hernando Medel. Veiled on 3 Jan 1618 in Lagos. Maybe another daughter of Maria Rubio?

2. Maria Burgueno married 10 Feb 1649 to Nicolas Lopez son of Alonso Lopez and Maria de Rivera 'vecinos' of Queretaro. Maria is listed as daughter of Sebastian Perez but the mother is not listed. Perhaps she is the illegitimate daughter of Sebastian Perez who was marred to Leonor Gonzalez de Ruvalcaba?

3. Maria Bugueno married Antonio de Ledesma which required a marriage dispensation of 'cuarto grado de consanguinidad' Antonio was 'vecino' of Silao.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5Y9-W?i=411&wc=3J6F-3TL%3…

4. Gebriel Burgueno buried 6 May 1667 in Lagos. States that he was single.

Best regards,
Austin Peez

In reply to by familias_bajio

Comment

Austin,

Hi and thank you for the additional information. I actually dont know where they got the information or where the 1610 census is, but from reading the letters it looks like they got it direcly from the actual records cause sometimes in the letters they talk about seeing the records that arent even indexed yet. But I got the information from this link that Armando posted on the Cristobal Ruiz de Esparza thread a few days ago. It's on page 26.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6invajbk0zzo4jm/Letters%20Edited%20for%20Dist…

Danny C. Alonso

Miguel Marquez de los Olivos, Alguacil Mayor de Juchipila

Juchipila
(Archivo general de Indias, Guadalajara, 43,N 30) imagen 32/32)
Transcripcion textual por Dr. Moises Beutelspacher Huizar 10 /Enero 2016)

Comments

Comment

Yo tengo los titulos de propiedad de Pedro del Muro que colindaba con los terrenos del Cap. Miguel Marquez de los Olivos por pricipios de 1700´s. Alguien sabe si era su hijo o aun estaba vivo el Cap. MiguelMarquez de los Olivos?

El Cap. Miguel Marquez de los Olivos tenia lo que hoy se conioce como San Joseph de los Marquez entre Huejucar, Jalisco y Monte Escobedo, Zacatecas.

Comment

I have this info about Pedro del Muro, I don´t know if it is the same person you are searching for.
Please send these property documents. thank you in advance.

Pedro del Muro ( oo Jul 2 1662, Aguascalientes) (image 331) & Ma Ysabel de Chirriaga Ortiz (hija de Pedro y Luisa) hijo
1) ( Pedro del Muro : natural del Parral y vecino de Monte Grande) hijo
1 1) Pedro del Muro Chirriaga (oo Nov 25 1689), Tlaltenango) (image 198) & Angela Marquez Sanchez (hija de Juan & Josepha vecinos de Sn Andres)

Aguascalientes Matrimonial Investigations - new installment

I have just uploaded an index to Aguascalientes Matrimonial Investigation films 299573-299575. The link is http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18014

Comments

Comment

George,

Thank you so much for sharing the files from Aguascalientes. They will help me a lot in my search. Thank you again for a great present

Susana Leniski

Comment

Thank you for the assist George! My research led me to a Diego Delgado who wants to marry Maria Carrillo. I was about to go searching for records in Aguascalientes, and dreaded those mixed up records. Then I remembered your noticed and used the pdf lists to locate image 29 in Vol. 1715-18 years. It turns out Diego is the widower of Nicolasa Lopes de Lisaldi. They had 12 children according to my records.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-65T9-3K2?cc=1502404&wc=M6Q…

Here is the complexity of his second marriage to Maria Carrillo de Sandi.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYJG-LM

Maria Carrillo is also known as Maria Estrada.

Problem 1. If Diego(MQMM-KGF in Familysearch.org)was born in 1758 and had children with his second wife up 1728 seems farfetch but possible at 70 years of age. The children I found were born between 1720 to 1728, but they married in 1715.

Problem 2. In addition there are two records that have same names to diego and maria carrillo for children born in 1694 and 1696 in Jalisco but he was still married to Nicolasa and having children. I did not look up the children's baptism to help confirm they belong to this couple or another, but maybe someone might have better records on these two. This needs further investigation but not sure I would be able to distinguish if maybe these children belong to his son Diego Delgado, or another Diego Delgado who I do not have a wife listed. Thanks Again!!

Comment

Thank you so much George. This work of yours helps people break through brick walls. I had spent three decades looking for some of my De la Torre ancestors and was able to finally find them because Claudia had provided a link to their marriage dispensation. It was this link that connected me to the work I had done on Hidalgos genealogy. It was only through that link that that I descend from the Cervantes line. That is also the only line that I have connected step by step to the Boccanegra family in Genoa It is also I believe how I hook up with Luis [Luciano] Lomelin. All my other Lomelin ancestry descends from Carlo Lomelin. It is also this this line gives a clear picture of an ancestor that was Jewish all along while pretending to be a converso all the way to his deathbed. His last words calling out to Adonai I can hear ringing through my ears. This line also connects my lineage to Fez in Morroco Africa. This line also is the only one that connects me to an ancestral Family in Pisa, Italy.

If I hadn't broken through that de la torre brickwall, I most likely would have continued trying to break through, and not work on the de la Torre Ledesma ancestry into Spain.
All this was only found because of the extra work done to index the marriage dispensation. Without that brickwall falling down, I wouldn't of continued searching these lines.

Thanks again for helping people break through some walls. We need successes to keep going, and this work really does make it easier to check out many possibilities.

Sincerely,
Rick A Ricci

Comment

Many thanks George for this great Christmas present. Your previous indexes have been a great help for which I truly appreciate your time and effort in creating these terrific sources!

Austin Perez

In reply to by familias_bajio

Comment

George,

This is great news. I can't begin to tell you how much the indexes have helped me. Thank you for all your hard work George.

Chris

cristobal ruis de esparzay antonia de alvarado

Hola
alguien sabe quienes son los padres de cristobal ruis de esparza
y de antonia de alvarado?
hay algunas publicacines donde mencionan que ls padres de ambos

Comments

Comment

Sorry, I don't understand everything already written, but I have my 11th great grandparents as Lope Ruiz de Esparza Sr. y Maria de Equinoa (b: abt 1525 Navarra, Spain), parents of (1) Francisco Ruiz de Exparza and (2)Lope Ruiz de Esparza Jr.(b:1659 Mexico City, M: 1594 Ana Francisca Gabay de Montezuma, parents of Bernardo (b:1608) and Cristobal (b: 1616).

See the link for more detailed document:

http://s979.photobucket.com/user/PappyRod/media/AnaFranciscaGabaydeMoct…

Hopefully, this is correct information and helpful.
Saludos,
Roy

Comment

Lope Ruiz de Esparza and Maria de Equinoa are my 10 great-grandparents. The
thread has mainly been about proving who the parents of Cristóbal Ruiz de
Esparza and Antonia de Alvarado were. I had already provided the proof of
the parents of Cristóbal Ruiz de Esparza. The parents of Bernardo Ruiz de
Esparza weren't in question because that was proven by Bill Figueroa in his
post at http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/15316. So what he is missing
is the proof of the parents of Antonia de Alvarado. I found the will of
Cristóbal Ruiz de Esparza, husband of Antonia de Alvarado, but it doesn't
mention her parents. Therefore a dispensa needs to be found that mentions
her parents.

Armando

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote:

> Sorry, I don't understand everything already written, but I have my 11th
> great grandparents as Lope Ruiz de Esparza Sr. y Maria de Equinoa (b: abt
> 1525 Navarra, Spain), parents of (1) Francisco Ruiz de Exparza and (2)Lope
> Ruiz de Esparza Jr.(b:1659 Mexico City, M: 1594 Ana Francisca Gabay de
> Montezuma, parents of Bernardo (b:1608) and Cristobal (b: 1616).
>
> See the link for more detailed document:
>
> http://s979.photobucket.com/**user/PappyRod/media/**
> AnaFranciscaGabaydeMoctezuma_**zps7e79e35a.jpg.html?sort=6&o=**0
>
> Hopefully, this is correct information and helpful.
> Saludos,
> Roy

Comment

Armando and Roy,
There is several pieces of evidence that suggest that the parents of Antonia Alvarado (often named as Antonia Lopez de Alvarado, e.g., marriage of her daughter Gertrudis Ruiz de Esparza to Eugenio Martinez Calvillo) were Luis de Alvarado and Beatriz Lopez de Elizalde (Lizalde). Regarding the funeral documents you refer, one clearly corresponds to Christobal Ruiz de Esparza where Antonia Alvarado and son Francisco iare mentionedl the other is for Christobal Salado whose wife was also named Antonia Alvarado. I do not think these two are the same person.

Jaime Alvarado

Comment

Hola Edgar,

Vea la siguiente dispensa para el padre de Cristóbal.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18402-105871-89?cc=1874591&w…

"Phelipe Calvillo español hijo legitimo de Eugenio Calvillo difunto y de
Gertrudis Ruiz de Esparza originario y vecino de esta villa como mejor haya
lugar parezco ante Vmd y digo que tengo tratado de contraer matrimonio
según orden de Nuestra Santa Madre Iglesia con Teresa Muñoz de Hermosillo
así mismo española originaria y vecina de esta feligresía hija legitima de
Andrés Muñoz ya difunto y de Lorenza de Tiscareño y por que me hallo con la
dicha Teresa Muñoz de Hermosillo emparentado en cuarto grado de
consanguinidad por ser la dicha Gertrudis Ruiz de Esparza mi madre y la
referida Lorenza de Tiscareño madre de la dicha mi pretensa primas segundas
hijas de dos primos hermanos que los fueron mi abuelo Cristóbal Ruiz de
Esparza y Juan de Tiscareño abuelo de la pretensa y estos dos fueron hijos
de dos hermanos cuales fueron Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza mi bisabuelo y
Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza bisabuela de mi pretensa"

También esta otra.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377-16870-15?cc=1874591&wc…

"que la abuela del pretenso por parte del padre fue hermana de la bisabuela
de la pretensa por parte materna y el otro parentesco se parece ser que su
bisabuela por parte de su madre y el bisabuelo de la pretensa por parte
paterna eran hermanos"

Saludos,
Armando

2013/6/2

> Hola alguien sabe quienes son los padres de cristobal ruis de esparza y de
> antonia de alvarado?
> hay algunas publicacines donde mencionan que ls padres de ambos
> son bernardo ruis de esparza y catalina losano
> y luis de alvarado y betris lopes elizalde.
> exite algun documento donde puedo comprobar que efectivamente son ellos
> los padres de cristobal y de antonia?
> saludos

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola armando
estuve leyendo detalladamente la dispensa
que me pasastes y efectivamente habla de los padres
abuelos y demas 4 generaciones en total
ahora ya se quien son los padres de cristobal
te lo agradezco sinceramente amigo
armando
haces una mencion de un matrimonio de pedro alonso de los inojos
y ana domingues matrimonio 3 mayo 1620 y no en 1632 en sierra pinos.
existe este registro ? 1620 o 1632?
tienes el link?
que tengas un buen dia
saludos
bye

Comment

Hola Edgar,

Escribí un comentario y apunté el enlace de una copia del registro
matrimonial de Pedro Alonso y Ana Domínguez, que efectivamente fue el 3 de
mayo de 1620, en http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/17433?page=5

Saludos,
Armando

2013/6/4

> Edgar Olguin Diaz
> hola armando
> estuve leyendo detalladamente la dispensa
> que me pasastes y efectivamente habla de los padres abuelos y demas 4
> generaciones en total
> ahora ya se quien son los padres de cristobal
> te lo agradezco sinceramente amigo
> armando haces una mencion de un matrimonio de pedro alonso de los inojos
> y ana domingues matrimonio 3 mayo 1620 y no en 1632 en sierra pinos.
> existe este registro ? 1620 o 1632?
> tienes el link?
> que tengas un buen dia saludos bye -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>
> To post, send email to:
> research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
>
> To change your subscription, log on to:
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola armando
un cordial saludo
gracias por pasarme el enlace
efectivamente es del 3 mayo del año 1620
te lo agradezco mucho
estamos en contacto
saludos
bye

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola armando
un cordial saludo
gracias por pasarme el enlace
efectivamente es del 3 mayo del año 1620
te lo agradezco mucho
estamos en contacto
saludos
bye

Comment

Gary saludos, sería bueno mencionar fechas de ebventos de los personajes que mencionas para ubicar la época y algún lugar en específico.

In reply to by xavo666

Comment

Javier,

Cristóbal Ruiz de Esparza casó con Antonia de Alvarado el 19 de enero 1662 en Aguascalientes.

Film 299421 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-53074-27?cc=1502404&…

Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza casó con Catalina Lozano el 27 de febrero 1634 en Aguascalientes.

Film 299421 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52463-2?cc=1502404&w…

Armando

In reply to by Armando

Comment

Hola Armando,

Una duda, yo tengo que Leonor Lozano (hija de Christobal Lozano Martinez y de María de Isla) tuvo una hija con Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza en 1635, un año despues de que Catalina Lozano (a quien tengo como hermana de Leonor) se casara con Bernardo Ruiz Esparza.

No he visto la imagen, pero aquí está la referencia:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK2P-YHL

Ahora me pregunto si Leonor y Catalina eran la misma persona. Alguna idea?

Leonor volvió a casar en 1650 con Bernabe Merino con quien tuvo por lo menos tres hijos.

Muchas gracias!

Sergio Salés

In reply to by ssales1984

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola sergio
un cordial saludo
estuve investigando sobre catalina losano y leonor losano
encontre poca informacion no se si ya la tienes
pero queria compartirla es la siguientes:
leonor losano isla y bernabe merino matrimonio 8 diciembre 1650 aguascalientes
ella hija legitima de christobal losano y maria de isla.

Hijos de cristobal losano y maria de isla:
-leonor losano isla bautizada el 22 mayo 1617 aguascalientes
-magdalena losano isla bautizada el 7 septiembre 1619 aguascalientes.

encontre dos defunciones de leonor losano:
- leonor losano fallecio 20 septiembre 1669 aguascalientes soltera es chichimeca
- leonor losano fallecio 13 junio 1670 aguascalientes esposo bernabe merino
no encontre la defuncion de bernabe merino.

hijas de bernabe y leonor losano:
maria merino losano baut 12 nov. 1651 aguascalientes
josepha merino losano baut 12 nov. 1651 aguascalientes
mathiana merino losano baut 16 marzo 1653 aguascalientes.

la pregunta importante: seran hermanas leonor losano y catalina losano casada con bernardo ruiz de esparza (salado)?
ellos se casaron en 1634 y la fecha aprox. de nacimiento de catalina seria en 1615.
catalina losano murio 26 julio 1683 aguascalientes
bernardo salado murio 25 junio 1683 aguascalientes.

espero y te sirva esta pequeña informacion sergio
estoy interesado porque catalina losano es parte de mi arbol genealogico
saludos
bye

In reply to by GARY

Comment

Hola Edgar,

Muchísimas gracias por la información. Tenía la mayoría mas no toda.

Yo desciendo de otra hermana de Leonor, llamada Maria de Isla como su madre, también hija de Christóbal Lozano.

Leonor definitivamente existió pues hay varios documentos sobre ella, incluyendo su bautismo, su confirmación y su testamento en Aguascalientes.
Aqui estaá su confirmación, ella están en la novena línea.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11855-61034-96?cc=1410092&…)

Su matrimonio con Bernabé Merino tambien está bien documentado, pues además de su partida de bodas tenemos los bautismos de sus tres hijas. Mas no he buscado la imágen. Si la encontramos podría decirnos si estuvo casada con Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza. Por último, Leonor Lozano efectivamente murió en 1670.

Yo no tenía fecha de defunción de Catalina Losano, pero si ella murió en 1683, eso querría decir que sí son dos personas distintas. Tienes el link para la imágen?

Aquí está la imágen del matrimonio de Catalina con Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza en 1634
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52463-2?cc=1410092&w…

Lo que no me hace sentido es que Leonor esté teniendo una hija con su cuñado, a un año del matrimonio de su hermana. Me hace más sentido pensar que dicha hija era en realidad hija de Bernardo y Catalina. Pero los documentos son los documentos. No se pueden refutar sin otros documentos.

Aqui está la imagen del bautismo de la hija de Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza y de Leonor Lozano. La niña no tiene nombre, así que es posible haya muerto poco tiempo después.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51273-22?cc=1502404&…

En fin, un pequeño misterio a desentramar. Si enctontramos la imágen del matrimonio de Leonor con Bernabe Merino tal vez ayude a aclarar.

Saludos,

Sergio

Sergio Salés

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola sergio
aqui te mando el link del matrimonio de bernarde merino y leonor losano
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52793-93?cc=1502404&…
tambien mencionan a jacinto losano y su esposa juana gonzalez como testigos

la defuncion de catalina losano mujer de bernardo salado esparza
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11773-145553-84?cc=1502404…

en esta misma pagina aparece la defuncion de bernardo salado pero menciona
que era soltero el cual no es el esposo de catalina losano

saludos
estamos en contacto
bye

sergio checa esta publicacion de un testamento de bernardino ruiz de esparza
habla de los padres de catalina losano luego me deja tu opinion
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/15316

Comment

Hola Edgar,

El testamento de Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza es muy interesante, pues sugiere que Catalina no fue hija de Christobal Lozano y de Maria de Isla como pensaba yo, sino de Juan Lozano y de Ysabel de Friaz. Dicha pareja no la conocía yo. Me pregunto si este Juan Lozano estará relacionado con Christobal Lozano? Sé que Mariano González Leal afirmó en "Retoños de España" que Christóbal Lozano era hijo de Juan Lozano y de Inés Martínez Vaca y González, pero me parece que éste Juan de que estamos hablando debe ser más joven.

Busqué en mis archivos y la razón que conecté a Catalina con Christobal Lozano era que él fue testigo en la boda de Catalina.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52463-2?cc=1410092&w…

Por ahora entonces deslindaré a Catalina de la línea de Christobal Lozano.

Según la defunción de Christobal Lozano, hizo testamento. Pero no he podido encontrarlo. Sería una joya, pues murió el 13 de mayo de 1646.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11773-145304-59?cc=1410092…

Muchas gracias!
Sergio Salés

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola sergio sales
de nada aqui estamos para ayudarnos
si tengo aalguna novedad algun dato nuevo
te aviso
seguire investigando
estamos en contacto
saludos
que tengas un bonito dia
bye

Comment

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

I cant understand all of this thread but the Lozanos are my ancestors and it look like it says that my ancestor Cristobal Martinez Lozano parents are Juan Lozano and Ines Martines and then it looks like it says that another ancestor of mine Catalina Lozano that's married to Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza that her parents are Juan Lozano and Isabel de Frias. i think the thread asks if it knows the relationships between Juan Lozano and Cristobal Martinez Lozano but i cant tell but i wonder if juan Lozano that married Isabel de Frias is the brother of Cristobal Martinez Lozano and the son of the other Juan Lozano that's married to Ines Martinez.

Danny C. Alonso

Comment

According to a document with letters from Jaime Holcombe Isunza, Catalina Lozano cc Bernardo Ruíz de Esparza was a cousin of Ana Martínez Lozano cc Francisco Prieto Gallardo. CC means "casado con" It doesn't have a citation for that specific piece of information so I don't know which document states that relationship. If true, it's possible that the father of Catalina and the father of Ana were brothers which would mean that Juan Lozano cc Isabel de Frias was the son of Juan Lozano cc Inés Martínez. Catalina and Ana were married 6 months apart so they would have been close in age and the fathers of each would likely have been close in age making it all the more plausible that Juan Lozano cc Isabel de Frias was the brother of Cristobal Martinez Lozano and the son of Juan Lozano cc Inés Martínez. Additionally, a Cristobal Lozano was a witness in the marriage of Catalina Lozano. No telling if this was her father's brother but very much a possibility - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52463-2

See the following document for letters from Jaime Holcombe Isunza
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6invajbk0zzo4jm/Letters%20Edited%20for%20Dist…

Comment

Armando,

Thank you, this is really good information I didn't know any of that about Ana Martinez Lozano. she's also my ancestor, i'll make a note in my records about that. with this new information it defintly seems to me that Juan Lozano and Cristobal Lozano Martinez are probably brothers

Danny C. Alonso

In reply to by ssales1984

Comment

Hola Sergio,

No me había percatado del mensaje que me habías mandado hasta ayer y no encontré tiempo de leer todos de mas mensajes del tema hasta hoy.

Primero, como has de haber leído en http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/15316 los padres de Catalina Lozano fueron Juan Lozano e Isabel de Frías. Eso significa que Catalina no fue hermana de Leonor Lozano.

Segundo, el registro matrimonial de Leonor Lozano del 8 diciembre de 1650, que proporcionó Edgar, dice que Leonor fue doncella (virgen). La carta del dote de Bernabé Merino dice lo mismo. Entonces Leonor no tuvo relaciones, y menos hijos, antes de 1650.

Tercero, hay muchos registros que contienen errores que es lo que seguramente pasó en el bautismo de quien según era una hija de Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza y de Leonor Lozano. Para mi, no hay duda que se equivocó el cura y apuntó mal el nombre de la esposa de Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza.

Saludos,
Armando

In reply to by Armando

Comment

Gracias, Armando, agradezco la clarificación. Sé que hay errores en las fuentes documentales, pero es de cuidado hacer inferencias sin otros documentos que aclaren las duda. En este caso, tienes toda la razón y el apoyo documental que aclara la situaci[on pues el hecho de que en su boda con Bernabé Ruiz de Esparze Leonor haya sido "doncella" acalara que no tuvo relaciones antes de eso.

Muchas gracias!

Sergio Salés

In reply to by xavo666

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola xavo
si es cierto sinceramente se me paso
ponerles las fechas es muy importante las fechas
no volvera a pasar
que tengas un buen dia
saludos
estamos en contacto amigo
bye

Theniente Capitan Protector 1727 and Alcalde 1732 of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico

I am looking at the defunto records in familysearch.org of Huejuquilla El Alto of Jalisco, Mexico years 1720 - 1761. I found a couple of interesting people:

Comments

Sephardic (Spanish) Jews

This will be a study of Historical events of the Sephardic (Spanish) Jews who were brought over from Spain to the Americas and Mexico territory to escape Genocide.

Comments

Comment

My oldest confirmed ancestor on my mother's side, Jose Augustin Narvaez, was of a family of Sephardic Jews. His family's presence in the New World dates back to the early to mid- 1500s and one of his family was tried by the Inquisition in Mexico. I was able to find information about Jose's birth in Aguascalientes from a posting on FamilySearch.com by an LDS member, but have been unable to confirm the information independently. I thought I would find his baptismal/christening history in Nuestros Ranchos film library but was unsuccessful. If he and his family practiced the Jewish faith in the late 1700s (he was born around 1775), that might account for his name not appearing in these records. I don't know if Jewish families practice a ritual similar to the Catholics and, if so, how to locate such records if they exist. If anyone has any additional information on this subject, please respond via this posting or directly to me at michael_dickey@comcast.net. Thanks.

Comment

Michael,

Check out the section titled "The Jewish Influence," on my website located at

http://www.patriciajcorbera.com.

Rufina Bernadetti Silva Mausenbaum is a fountain of information on the subject, as well as the articles written by Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias.

Pat Silva Corbera

----- Original Message -----
From: "michael dickey"
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:49:04 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sephardic Jews

My oldest confirmed ancestor on my mother's side, Jose Augustin Narvaez, was of a family of Sephardic Jews. His family's presence in the New World dates back to the early to mid- 1500s and one of his family was tried by the Inquisition in Mexico. I was able to find information about Jose's birth in Aguascalientes from a posting on FamilySearch.com by an LDS member, but have been unable to confirm the information independently. I thought I would find his baptismal/christening history in Nuestros Ranchos film library but was unsuccessful. If he and his family practiced the Jewish faith in the late 1700s (he was born around 1775), that might account for his name not appearing in these records. I don't know if Jewish families practice a ritual similar to the Catholics and, if so, how to locate such records if they exist. If anyone has any additional information on this subject, please respond via this posting or directly to me at michael_dickey@comcast.net. Thanks.

Comment

Tenna Salas, In this book "The last Exodus" there is a statment about a Conquistador who helped developed the ports from the Rio Panuco to Santa Elana on the Atlantic coast. He aspired to settle the area between Tampico and the mines of Mazapil and Zacatecas; and to extend exploration and settlement across Mexico : form sea to sea" He was thus grated authority to "discover, pacify and settle" a new province to be called the Nuevo Reyno de Leon. The Spanish Inquisition in Mexico accused Carvajal because of his Jewish faith. While he had remained a Catholic publicly, members of his extended family had reverted to Judaism. Among these, the most notable one was his niece, Isabel Rodriquez because of her fervent faith in the God of her ancestors, the Jews. as a result, Carvajal was sented on February 23, 1590, to a six year exile from New Spain (which is Mexico). Before the year was out, while still awaiting execution of the sentence, Carvajal died in the Mexico prison. The primary reason for his stiff sentence was his failure to "denounce" his niece for practising Judaism. This is Stated in this book on pages 93 and 94.

In reply to by tennasalas

Comment

I remember seeing documentS wherE he was put on trial after his death. His casket was front and center as the y read the charges And confiscated his wealth. He was known as A devout christian who Also kept the sabbath
------Original Message------
From: tennasalas@msn.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: tennasalas@msn.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Zacatecas Link
Sent: Nov 9, 2009 11:05 AM

Tenna Salas, In this book "The last Exodus" there is a statment about a Conquistador who helped developed the ports from the Rio Panuco to Santa Elana on the Atlantic coast. He aspired to settle the area between Tampico and the mines of Mazapil and Zacatecas; and to extend exploration and settlement across Mexico : form sea to sea" He was thus grated authority to "discover, pacify and settle" a new province to be called the Nuevo Reyno de Leon. The Spanish Inquisition in Mexico accused Carvajal because of his Jewish faith. While he had remained a Catholic publicly, members of his extended family had reverted to Judaism. Among these, the most notable one was his niece, Isabel Rodriquez because of her fervent faith in the God of her ancestors, the Jews. as a result, Carvajal was sented on February 23, 1590, to a six year exile from New Spain (which is Mexico). Before the year was out, while still awaiting execution of the sentence, Carvajal died in the Mexico prison. Th
e primary reason for his stiff sentence was his failure to "denounce" his niece for practising Judaism. This is Stated in this book on pages 93 and 94.

Comment

Tenna Salas

I live in Wichita, KS I just came back from Israel this past Saturday, I spent 10 days there It was beautiful, I purchased a book called the last exodus and it speaks of the Sephardic Jews returning back to there original roots. This book was written by Dell F. Sanchez. Dr. Sanchez has been an international speaker in Mexico, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Sapin and all across America. He has traveled to Israel two to three timeas a year since 1996. His last trip was devoted to field observation and personal interviews with Israelis all across Israel. He is the founder of former CEO of Hispanic Community Educational Television, Incorporated known as KHCE TV-23/cable 22. He is the executive producer and host of a 60 miniute Spanish program called, "Liberacion." Both are viewed daily in San Antionio and south and central TX. This is a little bit of who Dr. Sanches is, he mentions in his book that he had decided to watch a movie called Schindler's List. by Steven spielberg who portrayed one facet of the Jewish Holocaust that occurred during Hitler's revenge in the 1940's, His soul was bursting with such sad and grievous emotion. he says that he realized that there was indeed, some connection between those jews and his soul. his father, Delfino Sanchez 11, shared with him his new discovery regarding the true racial roots of his own father Delfino 1, his father was in his mid 70's when he finally found out a very well kept family secret-that as an infant, his Dad had been given up for adoption by father while he was a high ranking officer in the Mexican Military-who happened to be a Jew from Spain. Suddenly, he was able to see why his Sanchez clan was so peculiar, especially his own Dad. he began to investigate which led up to him writing this book.

There are many other publications about this subject his is only one of them.

here is a list:

Aliyah! The exodus Continues
Aliyah! El Exodo Continua

Sephardic Destiny
Destino del Defardim

Obadiah- The Despised prophet of Sephardim
abdias-El Profeta Despreciado del Sefardim

History of the Marranos by: Cecil Roth

"Sephardim-The Jews from Spain"
by: Paloma Diaz-Mas, (translated by Geroge K. Zucker)

"The Duke of Naxos-of the house nasi"
by: Cecil Roth

"History de la Inquisicion"
by Samuel vila

"Israel my Beloved"
by: Kay Arthur

"My people: the story of the Jews"
by Abba Solomon Eban

Comment

My great grandmother would make comments to my mother and my grandmother that she was of royal blood. While discussing this with one historian and chronologist of Jalisco, he explained that she was probably of Jewish origin and that was the reason she would claim to be of royal blood. He stated that it was popular to believe in the special birth right without actually disclosing the Jewish link.

Has anyone heard of this comment of being of royal blood to imply that they were Jews or of Jewish ancestry?

Rosie Cordova

In reply to by rcordovamba

Comment

A lot of people from los altos of jalisco descenD froM king enrique II and his brotHers fadrique And tello. Their Parents were the king alfonso of castile and his jewish mistress. She was a converso to catholicism.
Many of the 1st. European settlers in los altos de jalisco were already related many times over through these brothers or the hijar and frias clan, or the hurtado de mendoza clan, or the altamirano clan. I say clan but I mean families with multitude connections thRough intermarriage.
And they continued marrying family once in los altos. In my family tree I have 2nd and 3rd cousins marrying with occasionAl 1st cousins.
ThE strange part is that even though there is that jewish connection there have been some in. The family tree that were antisemitic. I know of at least 2 officials of the inquisition in my family tree.
R A Ricci
------Original Message------
From: rcordovamba@aol.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: rcordovamba@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 27, 2009 11:15 PM

My great grandmother would make comments to my mother and my grandmother that she was of royal blood. While discussing this with one historian and chronologist of Jalisco, he explained that she was probably of Jewish origin and that was the reason she would claim to be of royal blood. He stated that it was popular to believe in the special birth right without actually disclosing the Jewish link.

Has anyone heard of this comment of being of royal blood to imply that they were Jews or of Jewish ancestry?

Rosie Cordova

In reply to by R.A.Ricci (not verified)

Comment

Yes I agree...it is much debated that the altenos (early society) were anti semitic, yet

three semitic descent families were able to intermarry into mainstream alteno socety

The Padilla Davila, Renteria and others. It is confirmed most of the early European settlers

in Los Altos were already related over and over in the book, La Secreta relacion de los

Conquistadores. The Ruiz de Velasco were related to the viceroy Mendoza and (I suspect

descend from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco.

The Hurtado de Mendoza family is the main source of royal blood in Los Altos, I am currently

working (or at least one of my projects) is to study the Hernandez de Arellano family; I already

suspect who don Toribio's parents were.

The de Anda y Altamirano family was another powerful Spanish family. Includes various conquistadores

and is a compound surname, de Anda and Altamirano de Castilla. I was able to trace the Altamirano

de Castilla back to Pedro I 'el Cruel', rey de Castilla. In Mexico City is where de Anda and Altamirano

de Castilla was compounded when a marriage took place creating a new name, de Anda y Altamirano

and eventually made it to Nueva Galicia and present day Los altos region.

I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today

were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico.

I have been fascinated with Los Altos; So much history and so much craziness.

I also have two instances with the inquisition. Andres Ruiz de Esparza and I descend

from the General Inquisitiator Francisco Martin de Gallardo.

Regards,

Daniel Camino

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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Re: "I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico."

I am not sure how to take this whole thread. I read it and the only thing that comes to mind is the saying about the potato: the best part is underground. I prefer not being from royalty and thinking that many of us are the best part, and it doesn't really matter what is underground (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We can not chose the wombs we are born in. Having said this, genealogy is a fascinating topic.

Ed

In reply to by Edward Serros

Comment

I'd like add my two cents worth about " Royal blood". The vast majority of
the "nobles' that settled in Mexico were *hidalgos *or* escuderos*. Hidalgo
was a class of lower nobility given very freely in Spain as there were no
lands attached to it or exemptions expected. Most were descendants of a
titled person who did not inherit the title, an example is every son who was
not the first born. Escudero was give for a military acheivment. To say
these people were *royal *, with the blood of kings and Queens is a stretch.
An excellent picture of what it meant to be a Spanish Hidalgo is found in
the book ; *A Nation of Shepards* by Daniel Lucero. It describes the journey
of Francisco Robledo from Spain to Mexico, then as part of the Onate
expedition to settle Santa Fe around 1600.
If you ask any middle or upper class person in Mexico about their family
origin, most will tell you their grandfather or his father came from Spain.
Then they will tell you that they are of noble birth. Almost all really have
no idea when or where that occured. It's a mass delusion that's become
ingrained in the national character.

Eric Robledo Edgar

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In reply to by robledo (not verified)

Comment

Dear Eric;

There were exemptions and privileges for the hidalgos, please check the Pleitos de Hidalguía in las Chancillerías, that theme has been largely studied. Hidalgos did not have to pay the taxes that the pecheros did, they had the right of the use of coats of arms, privileges of certain positions in the government: Captains, Mayors, etc.

For a better understanding of what an hidalgo is, I recommend you "Cuadernos de Doctrina Nobiliaria" by Vicente de Cadenas, I am sure you will like it.

What you say also happens in the US and the rest of the world, I have read of many people that believe they are nobility just because some ancestor was a noble in the XIV C.

On the rest of your comment I agree, royal is to belong to a royal lineage.

Finally, if you want to read which families belonged to the titled nobility in México there is "Estudios Genealógicos" by Ortega y Pérez-Gallardo.

Best regards,

In reply to by leondetejada (not verified)

Comment

Thank you for the recommendation, I'll look out for it.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:22 PM, wrote:

> Dear Eric;
>
> There were exemptions and privileges for the hidalgos, please check the
> Pleitos de Hidalguía in las Chancillerías, that theme has been largely
> studied. Hidalgos did not have to pay the taxes that the pecheros did, they
> had the right of the use of coats of arms, privileges of certain positions
> in the government: Captains, Mayors, etc.
> For a better understanding of what an hidalgo is, I recommend you
> "Cuadernos de Doctrina Nobiliaria" by Vicente de Cadenas, I am sure you will
> like it.
>
> What you say also happens in the US and the rest of the world, I have read
> of many Smiths that believe they are nobility just because some ancestor was
> a noble in the XIV C.
> On the rest of your comment I agree, royal is to belong to a royal lineage.
>
> Best regards,
>
>

In reply to by robledo (not verified)

Comment

Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their ancestors came from

they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they said their grandfather

which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of course.

I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably

not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied

(I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have

people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(

-Daniel

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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.

As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but

found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,

Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.

The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.

Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were

accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are

still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,

the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)

Eric Robledo Edgar
*

*
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their
> ancestors came from
>
> they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they
> said their grandfather
>
> which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of
> course.
>
>
> I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
>
> not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
>
> (I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
>
> people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
>
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…

In reply to by robledo (not verified)

Comment

This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central

Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!

-Daniel

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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Daniel,

Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?

My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.

I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?

Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central

Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive gift.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…

In reply to by Pat Silva Corbera

Comment

Well, in my blood the only "royalty" that runs thru it is that of Crown Royal. Just kiddin, but on a serious matter, I was reading the beginning of this thread as it pertained to Sephardic ancestory and I wanted to comment that my wife's family is from Northern Nuevo Leon and their customs, food, and spanish is oddly different from my parents' family from Zacatecas and SLP. As soon as I finish my geneaology I will begin hers -J. Antonio Camacho

Comment

I found the comments from J. Antonio, Leon, and Eric (see below) very interesting, since in my research from Zacatecas to Santa Fe, New Mexico to Juarez I have found that my ancestors have been marrying into the same families at least since the late 1600s which is as far back as I can get. It had nothing to do with wealth or social position. They were all farmers, whether they owned haciendas or not. A few were officers stationed at presidios.

Starting in New Mexico almost 300 years ago, I can see that my ancestors were much like what J. Antonio describes in Nuevo Leon, where people were isolated, probably had Sephardic ancestry due to their customs, food, and an archaic Spanish that sounds so close to Ladino.

In Zacatecas I found that my father was misled to think that his great-grandfather, known as "el Frances", was not French, but from people who had been in Zacatecas for generations, all described as espanol, not a Frenchman among them. I think this is because the French had been there, and those are the only light-skinned, blue eyed people they knew and remembered. Because of the meztizaje, some dark people in a family were told "saliste puro indio", where their siblings were "gueros".

In Juarez, the Lower El Paso Valley in Texas, and the neighboring Mesilla Valley in southern New Mexico starting in the late 1600s when my ancestors escaped the Indian revolution in Northern New Mexico and resettled in those areas, just about all the families intermarried. This had nothing to do with "puresa de sangre" or royalty or wealth, I don't believe, but rather the isolation and the provincial mindset of the people themselves. The formed clans, as in Old England, Scotland, and Ireland.

Even here in the United States people joke about white trash or "rednecks" in the South and Appalachia who "marry their cousins" and are inbred. Those people are usually dirt poor. Does anyone remember the feuds between the Hatfield and McCoy clans several generations ago that started because a girl from one clan wanted to marry a boy from another clan? Shades of Romeo and Juliet.

Today there are people in Utah, Arizona, and Texas that isolate themselves as distinct Mormon clans, separate from mainstream Mormons, where it is known that the leaders act much like chieftans of old and decide that cousins should marry rather than marry out of their clans.

So, this intermarrying is not or has been just the custom of Altenos, but rather of people who are isolated and provincial regardless of color or economic/social status.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: J. Antonio

Well, in my blood the only "royalty" that runs thru it is that of Crown Royal. Just kiddin, but on a serious matter, I was reading the beginning of this thread as it pertained to Sephardic ancestory and I wanted to comment that my wife's family is from Northern Nuevo Leon and their customs, food, and spanish is oddly different from my parents' family from Zacatecas and SLP. As soon as I finish my geneaology I will begin hers -J. Antonio Camacho

Comment

I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.

Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.

The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico "he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa

is french"

This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.

espanol is an iffy term.

espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.

I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society

in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico

this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled

espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
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In reply to by Pat Silva Corbera

Comment

I guess i meant my YDNA!

> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:06:38 +0000
> From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Daniel,
>
> Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
>
> My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
>
> I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
>
> Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
>
>
> -Daniel
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive gift.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…

In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Thank you Daniel...what is your mtDNA?
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:21:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

I guess i meant my YDNA!

> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:06:38 +0000
> From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Daniel,
>
> Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
>
> My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
>
> I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
>
> Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>

In reply to by Pat Silva Corbera

Comment

I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!

I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! :) Which is good!

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&sli…

In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Spain was the first melting pot and a lot of the families that we descend from did have a lot of french blood o r basque blood.
Some of The spanish families we descend from were not white. I have accumulated ample evidence of north african blood in some of the lines from spain. One of the lines was just recently discovered because of access to old family paPers that held family secrets. These papers were in sitting in a library that had not been touched for centuries.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Sent: Dec 3, 2009 6:16 PM

I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.

Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.

The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico "he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa

is french"

This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.

espanol is an iffy term.

espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.

I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society

in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico

this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled

espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
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In reply to by R.A.Ricci (not verified)

Comment

I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also

depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed

with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype

that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype

was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to

American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood

but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white

are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
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Comment

Daniel,

I have found that many Americans of Northern European descent (England, Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, Germany, etc) still don't consider those of Southern European descent (Spain, France, Portugal) as "white".

Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also

depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed

with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype

that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype

was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to

American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood

but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white

are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
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Comment

I know some still dont, the census does though. I think its ironic white basicallymeans white skin. Genetics have proven that English part of their genetic ancestry
came from Iberia (Spain) and arethe closest related tothe spaniards). Then Northern spain is mostly Celtic. I think it just shows how ignorant american societyreally is. -Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

One of our moorish ancestors is from northern spain. The king of aragon kidnapped him when he defeated his father. He raised as his own and then was allowed to marry into the kings family since he was not a biological son.
Another ancestor of alteno families is the grandson of the 2nd caliph of the almohads. He converted after witnessing a miracle. His children married spaniards and are ancestors of the frias and hijar families
Another ancestor of altenos claimed to be from northern spain but were from north africa with the grandmother being a mulata. In all genealogies that I have seen of this family that are on the internet they continue the lie that they were pure white
I have other true stories.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Sent: Dec 3, 2009 10:08 PM

I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also

depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed

with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype

that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype

was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to

American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood

but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white

are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…

In reply to by R.A.Ricci (not verified)

Comment

I dont think no one is pure anything, its just a social concept. Like in Los Altos, the average claim

is they are full white, while this might be socially true of course we all came from Africa. The human race

originated in Africa. Socially, if you were white, then you were white, it didnt matter if you

had a great grandpa who was indio. This brings up la limpieza de sangre topic. If a european and

india had a kids (mestizo). If the mestizo married a white then the kid is (Castizo). If the Castizo

married white again then the kid would be 100% white socially wise. (enough too look like a regular

european). This is very difficult social topic to explain! This whole process might have even just be

avoided so they would have to deal with it by marrying inside the family. Going back to your

point of the moorish ancestor. The alteno would still be white, its too distant to even claim as your

culture. Its like me saying Im Polish, though I have an ancestor along time ago, it doesnt mean Im polish

I claim my Spanish ancestry more because I was raised with Spanish culture. This might be why even if they

have a moorish ancestor like 6 centuries ago, you arent moro your Spanish, what ever more blood you

have thats what you are. Of course you should be proud and recognize that moorish ancestor. But one thing

IS being moorish and another is being raised espanol. In my opinion white just means assimilation,

like in USA or Mexico if you passed as a white (no one would bother to disprove you) many mestizo

families in Mexico have darker and lighter children all in the same family. It works the same in the US

as long as you look white and claim european ancestry then your white. I havent met too many

people who descend from the Frias family only a handful. I havent connected

to them...possibly in the future, there area lot of unfinished lines in my tree!

-Daniel

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Comment

I found this on the US census website

White (Anyone that claims ancestry from the original peoples of Europe)

Thank goodness we dont live in the most igorance of times, I know most of

the people I know do consider southern Europeans, (Portugues, Spanish,

Italians, French, someitmes GErmans and Greeks white now)

I know when part of my family immigrated from Mexico in the late 1800s early

1900s they were marked as white. But around the 1980s they were forced

to label hispanic/latino. Recently in the 90s since hispanic/latino is now just

a choice we went back to white american. Since the definition was clearly

stated: White (Anyone that claims ancestry from the original peoples of Europe).

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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Daniel,

Not sure if this is your reply to my question about what haplogroup is your mtDNA, but if it is... are your DNA test results posted online, and if so where?

thank you,
Pat Silva Corbera

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:18:49 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!

I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! :) Which is good!

-Daniel

In reply to by robledo (not verified)

Comment

Eric,

I read your posting and while reading was continously nodding my head.

I can't tell you how often in talking to people from Mexico, they claim to be of Spanish or French Ancestry, never a mention of their Mexican or native American heritage. I find it sad that we celebrate what we don't know and don't celebrate what we do know, delude ourselves with the wishful thinking rather than with the reality, whatever that reality may be.

Thanks for your postings......I have enjoyed your commentaries and wisdoms.

Alicia,
San Jose, Calif

________________________________
From: eric edgar
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 11:13:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.

As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but

  found otherwise. The trail ends  in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,

Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.

The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow,  I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O,  south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.

Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were

accepted as Spanish.  If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are

still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in  mining, oil and railroads. Today,

the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be.  ( Or not be)

Eric Robledo Edgar
*

*
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their
> ancestors came from
>
> they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they
> said their grandfather
>
> which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of
> course.
>
>
> I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
>
> not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
>
> (I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
>
> people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
>
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…

In reply to by oldcar53

Comment

Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary.  I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians.  My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me..  I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names. 

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European.  I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos.  This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled.  We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Alicia Carrillo wrote:

From: Alicia Carrillo
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 8:22 AM

Eric,

I read your posting and while reading was continously nodding my head.

I can't tell you how often in talking to people from Mexico, they claim to be of Spanish or French Ancestry, never a mention of their Mexican or native American heritage. I find it sad that we celebrate what we don't know and don't celebrate what we do know, delude ourselves with the wishful thinking rather than with the reality, whatever that reality may be.

Thanks for your postings......I have enjoyed your commentaries and wisdoms.

Alicia,
San Jose, Calif

________________________________
From: eric edgar
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 11:13:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.

As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but

  found otherwise. The trail ends  in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,

Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.

The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow,  I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O,  south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.

Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were

accepted as Spanish.  If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are

still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in  mining, oil and railroads. Today,

the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be.  ( Or not be)

Eric Robledo Edgar
*

*

Comment

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

In reply to by meef98367

Comment

To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.

The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.

Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.

So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.

Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco

-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
Garcia
Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am
not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried
with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any
indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther
south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
"soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed
race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most
families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across
to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America,
meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that
everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or
Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots
and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If
they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most
gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a
very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think
they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because
that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal
line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became
Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to
me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would
love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess
this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and
the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and
sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell
a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do
good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

Beautifully said. Thank you.
-Esperanza

On 12/3/09 1:59 PM, "Rick Rodriguez" wrote:

> To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
> was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
> with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
> connection with the place I feel I belong to.
>
> The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
> I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
> were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
> find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
> ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
> none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
> where I come from, how I am built.
>
> Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
> I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
> other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
> that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
> recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
> Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
> these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
> I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
>
> So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
> heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
> its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
> I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
>
> Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
> Garcia
> Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
> Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am
> not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
> grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried
> with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any
> indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
>
> I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
> (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther
> south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
>
> Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
> "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed
> race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most
> families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
> African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
> mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across
> to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America,
> meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
>
> I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that
> everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or
> Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots
> and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If
> they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
> understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most
> gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
> from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a
> very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think
> they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because
> that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
> find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal
> line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became
> Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to
> me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would
> love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
>
> I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
> Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
> disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess
> this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and
> the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and
> sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell
> a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do
> good work!
>
> Linda in Boulder City

Comment

Well, Rick, I can understand why you feel more Mexican, being that you now live in Mexico, and I don't know if your parents were born in America or Mexico, but my experience is different. Maybe you were raised closer to the culture, but I experienced "culture shock" in Mexico, not knowing proper Castellan, etc.

My mother, born in 1902, was a Piro-Manso-Tewa Indian whose ancestors were from New Mexico, the Lower El Paso Valley, and Juarez since the late 1600s. Her father was born in America, too, in 1878. They did have Spanish ancestors too, and those came up North with Onate in 1598. Maybe some were hidalgos, but all I have learned is that most of the men were officers stationed in presidios from Santa Fe to Parral. Their culture and language is different than that in Mexico, though it was all Mexico once, but it was an outpost for centuries and the people there became a breed all their own, with their own food, customs, language.

I related more to my mother's relations since during WWII we lived for years with them in New Mexico while my father, born in Zacatecas, was working on building ships in Oakland, California. My father criticized my mother's Spanish so much, and she didn't like his relatives, so I didn't grow up speaking Spanish or listening to Mexican music, etc. My father's heart was in Jerez which they left in 1913 during the Revolution. I had not only a cultural gap with him, but a generational one. He was old enough to be my grandfather. He was too strict, didn't feel girls should go to school, talk, date, etc.

My husband, born in Texas in 1935, comes from Altenos from Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco, and his pedigree includes all the surnames prominent there, and not one ancestor was anything other than espanol. I know that his mother's family had to have been conversos, but they would have been livid to hear about that, they were so "catolicos". However, his father was born in America in 1909.

My husband and I went to see his maternal aunt in Mexico City in 1968 where she was a profesora. She looked very espanola, with her green eyes, etc. She asked my husband to go with her to search for some of her male students in the university; their parents had pleaded to her to help find their sons since the police, etc. weren't forthcoming. There had been riots then and many students were killed or "disappeared" never to be heard from again. My husband was so disgusted, he has never wanted to return. Also his aunt was not very welcoming to me; she stated that no one in her family had ever married an Indian before. (yo sali pura india). My husband does not feel "Alteno" though I have traced his ancestry clear back to the late 1600s in Aguascalientes. He is a former Marine, a Korean War vet; his father was a Marine too, who fought for the Stars and Stripes during WWII, so his heart is here in America.

It would be nice to go and visit or even move to the places where your ancestors were from, but haven't you ever wanted to go to Spain where they originated, being that you know exactly where in Spain they originated (in Leon or Castilla)? Why does Mexico claim your heart and spirit more than Spain? Perhaps your parents influenced you.

You know the country that I feel that way about? New Mexico. I guess that part of the world calls to my spirit the way Jalisco calls to yours; I love the food from there, the customs so integrated with the Pueblo Indian culture. For Christmas I put up my "New Mexico" tree with ornaments I have gathered made in the Pueblos that reflect that culture. My cousin is a war captain for our tribe of Piro-Manso-Tewa. He has photos of our ancestors dressed in native wear, and tried to explain some of the customs to me, the fetishes, the tribal drum. Our grandfathers attended schools for Indians in Oklahoma because the whites didn't want them in their schools in NM.

You say you got into genealogy to find out how Mexican you were? How Aztec you were? I just went into it to find out my ancestors' names, where and how they had lived, etc. I once was fascinated by the Aztec culture, I visited all those pyramids, etc. But my father said we might not be Aztec on his side, and that anyway the Aztecs were a cruel, savage culture that subjugated other tribes, and that I should be as fascinated with his Spanish or French blood. (Actually, his ancestors, the Olague, came from Navarre, and they were Basques). He just thought of "Mexican" as a race, though he told me we were "mestizo", mixed race.

What a pity I can't visit Mexico (my husband abhors it, or rather he abhors the cruel and corrupt government). I've been to Jerez, and I would like to see where you live, since that is where my husband's ancestors are from. Why don't you post some photos of where you live and work?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Rodriguez
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican

To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.

The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.

Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.

So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.

Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco

Comment

Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!

Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear "oh soy espanol" or "soy frances" etc...but the European Mexicans

hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying "soy mejicano". Its the same

deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc....I do identify as Spanish in the US because

my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.

I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom

say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our

own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont

believe I speak Spanish!

I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant

of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think

Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!

I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!

Do you think you could send my your husbands's pedigree it would be cool

to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding

alteno provinces.

-Daniel

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Comment

Daniel,

I don't have my husband's trees in a format to send you yet. I only have all his lines in hand-written pedigree charts because I am still in the process of trying to break down some brick walls. As soon as I get it all into my PAF program, I will send you a descendancy report.

Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican

Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!

Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear "oh soy espanol" or "soy frances" etc...but the European Mexicans

hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying "soy mejicano". Its the same

deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc....I do identify as Spanish in the US because

my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.

I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom

say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our

own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont

believe I speak Spanish!

I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant

of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think

Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!

I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!

Do you think you could send my your husbands's pedigree it would be cool

to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding

alteno provinces.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&sli…

Comment

Thanks Emilie!!!

Id be glad to help if you need any, Ill have some extra time soon!

-Daniel

Send me your brick walls, I have a huge alteno database! and its still growing.

>From 1500s-1890s.

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Comment

Don't get me wrong Emilie, I'm not saying you're not Mexican or that I'm
more Mexican than you or others, I was just sharing the fact that I'm very
proud to be a Mexican, I apologize if any part of my comment made you feel
uncomfortable.

Some sociologists have come to the conclusion that most Mexicans living in
Mexico lack of an own identity and that this crisis is the cause of many of
our social issues when we compare ourselves to other countries, but that's a
different issue that would take forever to cover. I want to think that I
don't have this problem.

I was born in Los Angeles and I was raised by my parents (both born in
Mexico). I spoke Spanish at home and English everywhere else, this helped me
to learn both languages much easier. We came to live to Mexico when I was
10, and I went back y myself to the US when I was 20. I've lived close to 20
years in Los Angeles and less than that here in Mexico, but I feel my place
is here in Los Altos, it's hard to explain. I just responded to the voice in
my heart that told me that I had to be down here.

So, I guess I didn't choose to be a Mexican, I would say that Mexico chose
me to be its son.

Sure, I would love to travel someday to Talavera, Cuenca, Albornoz, Leon,
Castilla and the rest of Spain someday, when I have the resources to do so,
visit and pay my respects to my ancestor's burial sites. I would also have
to visit France, Italy, England, Germany, Denmark, Egypt, Africa, and all
the places my paternal ancestors were from, so I guess I'll just stick to
Los Altos for now, but it still doesn't mean I'm not a proud Alteno and
Mexican, I love my country, not necessarily the people running it. I want to
know more about my country's history as well, so if I were to go on a voyage
around the world, I would have to start by traveling my country first...
don't you agree? I have so much respect and awe for native American history
and their cultures, it's too bad I don't have that much native blood in me.
The tribes that lived here in Los Altos before the conquest were from
Chichimeca origins, which I know so little about.

I'm currently doing research here in Los Altos, and I develop websites
during my breaks. You can see pictures of some towns and people from Los
Altos de Jalisco in the following websites:

www.Valledeguadalupe.com (Valle de Guadalupe, where I live)
www.Hechoenlachona.com (Encarnacion de Diaz)
www.miJalisco.com

Well, gotta get back to work.

Best regards,

Rick

Comment

My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term

Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US

its common to see the hyphenated American term

(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.

-Daniel

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Comment

I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
 
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
 
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:

From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM

My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term

Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US

its common to see the hyphenated American term

(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.

-Daniel

                         
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Comment

America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent are amaricans.

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:

De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34

I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
 
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
 
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:

From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM

My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term

Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US

its common to see the hyphenated American term

(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.

-Daniel

                         
_________________________________________________________________
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Comment

Thank you Ruben ..... that has always bothered me. To often "America" and
"The United States" are used interchangeably and we forget that America is a
continent that is home to many different countries not just the US.

-Angelina-
--------------------------------------------------
From: "ruben casillas moreno"
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:52 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican

> America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent
> are amaricans.
>
> Ruben Casillas M.
>

Comment

I'm sorry if my post offended some of you. I meant to say that my daughter was born in the United States. I know that American refers to people of the whole continent, but I guess I got used to saying that term since everybody in here refers to US citizens as Americans.
 
In spanish it happens something  similar. When I watch TV from Mexico I hear people referring to US citizens as "Norteamericanos". That term should cover all of North America, not just the United States, and still, lots of people all over the world made American, or Norteamericano a term to refer to US citizens.
 
That reminds me of a story my dad told me. My parents were born in Mexico. One time, they were on vacation in Italy. The tour included travelers from all over Latin America and Spain. A guy from Spain asked my dad where was he from and he said in Spanish "yo soy norteamericano".
The guy stares at my dad and says "From the United States?"
"No, from Mexico" my dad answered.
"Oh, then you are Mexicano"
"Yes, but I'm also a Norteamericano"
"No you are not"
"Is Mexico in Central America?" said my dad
"No"
"Is it in South America?"
"No"
"That's right. Mexico is in North America" my dad finally said. "So I guess that makes me a Norteamericano" and then laughed.
 
Anyways, once again, I apologize if I offended anybody with my post. That was not my intention.

--- On Fri, 12/4/09, ruben casillas moreno wrote:

From: ruben casillas moreno
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:52 AM

America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent are amaricans.

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:

De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34

I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
 
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
 
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:

From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM

My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term

Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US

its common to see the hyphenated American term

(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.

-Daniel

                         
_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…

Comment

Hi Steve:

I agree with you 100%. It boggles my mind when I hear people, that should
know better, referring to this country as "America".

A day doesn't go by when I don't hear government officials, including all
the way up to the president, media people, even in the Spanish language
channels, making comments like: He came from ( you pick any country south of
the border) to "America".

It is sad, sad, sad...Perhaps this country should have been named with a
short, quick easy, to pronounce name. "United States of America" takes too
long to pronounce and write.

And by the way, I wonder how many people know that the official name of
Mexico ( with an "X", not a "J" ) is: "Estados Unidos Mexicanos" If you
don't believe me, look at any offical document or currency.

My dos centavos worth

John Gonzalez.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Apodaca"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 20:59
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican

I'm sorry if my post offended some of you. I meant to say that my daughter
was born in the United States. I know that American refers to people of the
whole continent, but I guess I got used to saying that term since everybody
in here refers to US citizens as Americans.

In spanish it happens something similar. When I watch TV from Mexico I hear
people referring to US citizens as "Norteamericanos". That term should cover
all of North America, not just the United States, and still, lots of people
all over the world made American, or Norteamericano a term to refer to US
citizens.

That reminds me of a story my dad told me. My parents were born in Mexico.
One time, they were on vacation in Italy. The tour included travelers from
all over Latin America and Spain. A guy from Spain asked my dad where was he
from and he said in Spanish "yo soy norteamericano".
The guy stares at my dad and says "From the United States?"
"No, from Mexico" my dad answered.
"Oh, then you are Mexicano"
"Yes, but I'm also a Norteamericano"
"No you are not"
"Is Mexico in Central America?" said my dad
"No"
"Is it in South America?"
"No"
"That's right. Mexico is in North America" my dad finally said. "So I guess
that makes me a Norteamericano" and then laughed.

Anyways, once again, I apologize if I offended anybody with my post. That
was not my intention.

--- On Fri, 12/4/09, ruben casillas moreno
wrote:

From: ruben casillas moreno
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:52 AM

America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent
are amaricans.

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:

De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34

I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to
recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on
my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California
border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and
third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always
refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of
their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina.
I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican
immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of
these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San
Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess
what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I
do.

Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people,
etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure,
the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the
way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an
American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the
US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little
bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and
traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well.
What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's
run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my
family.

Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to
poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana
made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio
Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the
Suchiate River.

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:

From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM

My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term

Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US

its common to see the hyphenated American term

(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…

In reply to by Rodriguez de Frias

Comment

Jaime Rendon Hernandez

Linda,

According to Gary Felix of the Genealogy of Mexico Hispanic Surname Project Mexico, results from Y DNA Testing are beginning to show common genetic markers of Indigenous peoples who claim they are of the same tribe, but say that they are not related. In other words different Native tribes in Mexico are beginning to distinguish themselves from other tribes by their distinctive Y (male chromosome) genetic markers. Once more Y data is collected there may be a time when we will be able to know from exactly what tribe we descend in Mexico. So do not despair Linda!!
I am not sure, but I think the MTDNA X (female chromosome) is also showing a genetic pattern! DNA testing is good for people who have no paper trail of their ancestry!

Comment

Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)

"So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.

Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"

-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
Garcia
Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and
I am
not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried
with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly
any
indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther
south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
"soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of
mixed
race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't
most
families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that
across
to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is
America,
meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that
everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or
Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal
roots
and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.
If
they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche.
Most
gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't
have a
very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups
think
they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico,
because
that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal
line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they
became
Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available
to
me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and
would
love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess
this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and
the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together
and
sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes
and tell
a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled.
We do
good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

I once told an Anglo friend that her Anglo ancestors who lived in Texas pre-1840s were in fact "Mexican" (by nationality); she was blown away becuase she had never thought in those terms...labels dont mean much if anything but society has attributed certain positive and negative aspects with such labels...

> From: teacozygran@kc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:34:40 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
>
> Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
>
> "So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
> your
> heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
> claims
> its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
> because
> I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
>
> Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…

Comment

There is a form of this "royal blood" syndrome for native people in Mexico.
My grandmothers oldest sister was from her mother's first marriage. Her
contention was that her family decsended from La Malinche, also known as
Dona Marina, the translator, advisor and mistress of Cortes.

Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:39 PM, tony cobos wrote:

>
> I once told an Anglo friend that her Anglo ancestors who lived in Texas
> pre-1840s were in fact "Mexican" (by nationality); she was blown away
> becuase she had never thought in those terms...labels dont mean much if
> anything but society has attributed certain positive and negative aspects
> with such labels...
>
> > From: teacozygran@kc.rr.com
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:34:40 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
> >
> > Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
> >
> > "So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
> > your
> > heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
> > claims
> > its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
> > because
> > I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
> >
> > Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> > Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…

Comment

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

Hello Johnny -
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain."  Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group "lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride.  I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language.  Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don't know or care about the differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them.  It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

I can't tell you their place of origin, but they have been discussed by
a dozen or more publications... It was believed that they were distant
cousins to the Guachichiles and split off from them. That was discussed
in that one book "People of the Peyote." It's quite a fascinating
theory and may very well be true.

Have you heard of it?

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

Hello Johnny -
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain."  Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride.  I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language. 
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them.  It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if
you don't already have it). This is something on the web, but I think
the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:

Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the
states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name "Huichol"
is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly
a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika.
Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling
culture known as the "Guachichil," who, in turn were one of the many
people collectively called "Chichimec." "Wizarika" is the term the
Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but
scholars have proposed various interpretations: "the healers," "the
sandal wearers," and "the ones." The Huichol use the term "Tevi,"
meaning one of "the people" when making distinctions between Huichol
and non-Huichol individuals.

Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre
Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango.
This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′
W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava
flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged
terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer
cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately
600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists
of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the
Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with
oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub
vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia,
Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The
herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.

Read more:
http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientatio…

-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

Hello Johnny -
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain."  Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride.  I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language. 
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them.  It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

Hello Johnny -
 
Thank you so much for the impressive information! Only question I have is what book are you reffering to?
 
Again, my thanks,
 
Rudy

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:49 PM

Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if you don't already have it).  This is something on the web, but I think the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:

Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name "Huichol" is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika. Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling culture known as the "Guachichil," who, in turn were one of the many people collectively called "Chichimec." "Wizarika" is the term the Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but scholars have proposed various interpretations: "the healers," "the sandal wearers," and "the ones." The Huichol use the term "Tevi," meaning one of "the people" when making distinctions between Huichol and non-Huichol individuals.

Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′ W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately 600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia, Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.

Read more: http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientatio…

-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

Hello Johnny -
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain."  Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group "lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride.  I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language.  Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don't know or care about the differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them.  It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Comment

Thank you Mr. Schmal. I will enjoy reading your articles on this subject. I have read many of your articles and find them so informative.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: johnnypj@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia >
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long>
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

In reply to by meef98367

Comment

Emilie,

>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn't want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.

I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG...as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the
Philippines. (Eric...you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
(http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .

For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Comment

Thank you Esperanza. You know, you mentioned something very interesting; you said "I have also read that other indigenous people were brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the Philippines".

You know, I am often mistaken for Filipino. I thought it was because of my Pueblo Indian blood that gives me my Asian eyes, since they say that American natives originated in Asia and came through Alaska. Now I am wondering, were some of my father's "indian" ancestors mixed with Filipinos brought to Zacatecas by the Spaniards? Is that where my looks came from and not from my mother's ancestors in New Mexico? I know that the Spaniards' ships brought booty from the Phillipines, but now you tell me they also brought slaves from there.

I am looking at a photo of my father when he was 17. I was born when he was almost 40, so he had changed a lot when I knew him, he got bald, had dentures, etc. but in the photo of him at 17 he does look Filipino! What a shame I had no brothers or male cousins close enough to get their DNA (my father died in 1966). My DNA won't tell me a thing about my father's ancestors.

I am also wondering about the Chinese in Zacatecas. My father was very prejudiced, and he told me he didn't want me to be friends with "Chinos" in college (they were from Taiwan), because he didn't like them. I asked why, and he said, "because in Jerez they wanted to marry our women". I didn't know they had Chinese in Jerez, or did they back when he lived there in 1903-1913? Or was it just a story told by his forbears who thought the Filipino slaves were Chinese (Chinos)?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: latina1955@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Emilie,

>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn't want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.

I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG...as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the
Philippines. (Eric...you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
(http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .

For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Comment

I had learned this too, like the USA, Mexico is a diversed countries, all types of European, Asian,

Middle Eastern, African, Native Americans all live in Mexico now. It has become one of the most diversed countries

in America.

-Daniel

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Comment

This occurs specially with middle and upper class mexicans

(usually espanoles) even if they have one ancestor who is

indio they wont claim it because its not enough for them.

It also depends on how were raised too, if its mostly

Spanish culture would we not identify as spanish?

I have found 1 or two indio ancestors from the 1600s

and 1700s. Then theres also the possible Moctezuma/Esparza

connection, one black ancestor and one jewish ancestor.

For me that was 200-300 years ago if not more. Its not close

hence why I dont claim it, but I am aware they are there!

And then theres the dicho my grandpa always says,

mas espanol mas mejicano.

Which is ironic because Mejico is a pluricultural nation.

-Daniel

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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

My father's grand mother's family was descended from the Hurtado de Mendozas, the de Andas and the Altamiranos, and so many noble and royal families. Such a great legacy. We need to share this information with our children. Just sharing, Marge

In reply to by rcordovamba

Comment

Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was

already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,

and SLP. Go figure!

Regards,

Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 28, 2009 2:36 PM

Yes I agree...it is much debated that the altenos (early society) were anti semitic, yet

three semitic descent families were able to intermarry into mainstream alteno socety

The Padilla Davila, Renteria and others. It is confirmed most of the early European settlers

in Los Altos were already related over and over in the book, La Secreta relacion de los

Conquistadores. The Ruiz de Velasco were related to the viceroy Mendoza and (I suspect

descend from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco.

The Hurtado de Mendoza family is the main source of royal blood in Los Altos, I am currently

working (or at least one of my projects) is to study the Hernandez de Arellano family; I already

suspect who don Toribio's parents were.

The de Anda y Altamirano family was another powerful Spanish family. Includes various conquistadores

and is a compound surname, de Anda and Altamirano de Castilla. I was able to trace the Altamirano

de Castilla back to Pedro I 'el Cruel', rey de Castilla. In Mexico City is where de Anda and Altamirano

de Castilla was compounded when a marriage took place creating a new name, de Anda y Altamirano

and eventually made it to Nueva Galicia and present day Los altos region.

I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today

were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico.

I have been fascinated with Los Altos; So much history and so much craziness.

I also have two instances with the inquisition. Andres Ruiz de Esparza and I descend

from the General Inquisitiator Francisco Martin de Gallardo.

Regards,

Daniel Camino

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In reply to by R.A.Ricci (not verified)

Comment

Which 150 years are you talking about? I know even today as we speak altenos still intermarry far close then they did

during the colony. Our gene pool is so small now we all have basically the same DNA and similar charateristics, I have 3rd

cousins that alomst are idential to me!

-Daniel

> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
>
> What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years

_________________________________________________________________
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In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

I am talking about the 150 years before coming to the americas
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 28, 2009 4:57 PM

Which 150 years are you talking about? I know even today as we speak altenos still intermarry far close then they did

during the colony. Our gene pool is so small now we all have basically the same DNA and similar charateristics, I have 3rd

cousins that alomst are idential to me!

-Daniel

> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
>
> What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
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http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

In reply to by mendezdetorres

Comment

Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:

De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40

Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was

already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,

and SLP. Go figure!

Regards,

Daniel
                         
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
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In reply to by Ruben Casillas

Comment

Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:

De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40

Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was

already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,

and SLP. Go figure!

Regards,

Daniel
                         
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…

In reply to by R.A.Ricci (not verified)

Comment

Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com escribió:

De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40

Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:

De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40

Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was

already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,

and SLP. Go figure!

Regards,

Daniel
                         
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…

In reply to by Ruben Casillas

Comment

Como dice el dicho: a la prima, se le arrima! (mexican slang)

-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de ruben
casillas moreno
Enviado el: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org; mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com
escribió:

De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40

Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it
all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
escribió:

De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40

Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by
birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was

already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,

and SLP. Go figure!

Regards,

Daniel
                         
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2

In reply to by Rodriguez de Frias

Comment

La prima es para que se exprima!!!

J. Gonzalez
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Rodriguez"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 17:29
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Como dice el dicho: a la prima, se le arrima! (mexican slang)

-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de ruben
casillas moreno
Enviado el: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org; mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com
escribió:

De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40

Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it
all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood

Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
escribió:

De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40

Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by
birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was

already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,

and SLP. Go figure!

Regards,

Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2

Family lines with known Jewish roots

I know I have seen references to those families from Los Altos that are known to have Jewish roots, but am having difficulty locating them in the archives. Would someone please assist me?

Comments

Comment

my grandpa got 12% middle eastern on ancestry, so you aren't the only mexican with above noise level middle eastern dna

Comment

Not all Jewish ancestry shows up as middle eastern dna. Many Ashkenazi Jews show European ancestry dna. The Jewish line that Toribio Hernandez Arellano descends from would show European ancestry dna. The idea that Jews more often married within their own family circles was strong in the davidic line. The Jewish families from Eastern Europe that immigrated into the Iberian peninsula tended to marry into the same families.there were about a couple dozen families that intermarried often in the 13th and 14th centuries.in Aragon and Southern France.

Comment

my grandpa got 5% european jewish as well. sometime ago i did the free transfer to ftdna, but i haven't got 4 people refered yet so i can't see his ftdna transfer myorigins results yet.

Comment

Not all Jewish ancestry shows up as middle eastern dna. The Jewish line that Toribio Hernandez Arellano descends from also shows European ancestry dna. The idea that Jews more often married within their own family circles was strong in the davidic line. The Jewish families from Eastern Europe that immigrated into the Iberian peninsula tended to marry into the same families.there were about a couple dozen families that intermarried often in the 13th and 14th centuries.in Aragon and Southern France.

Comment

Dear Raquel,

In the past year I have learned a lot more about the information that you seek. I am continuing my research so my book isn't finished yet. I have found that some of our lines traveled from Easter Europe a century and two centuries before the dispersal from the Iberian peninsula. These are not consider Sephardic Jews, they are called Ashkenazi Jews. This information helps explain your DNA results. I will let you know when I finish my book.

Thanks,
Rick A Ricci

Comment

I also came back with 3% Ashkenazi Jewish roots but don't know if it's from my Fathers Jerez, Zacatecas roots or my Mothers Michoacan, Jalisco roots. Is there a way to find out?
I'm also wondering why the comment that this is a sensitive subject to some members? Isn't our quest to find, reclaim and share the lineage and genetics of our ancestors when possible?
Linda Castanon-Long in Olympia, Wa

In reply to by longsjourney

Comment

Jewish ancestry is a sensitive subject on this site.

Many genealogists on this site claim that our Jalisco Jewish ancestral lines are a myth. These genealodgists have ignored or discarded what we know about the Jewish presence in the Iberian peninsula from at least 2000 years ago. They claim "Christiano Viejo" status for all of their lines.

Toribio Hernandez de Arellano definitely has Jewish ancestry from his father. This line definitely has Ashkenazi Jewish and davidic line history.

The de la Torre Ledesma family definitely has some Jewish ancestry that they share with the Padilla-Davila and Rodriguez de Hijar families.

Yes, both Toribio Hernandez de Arellano and Pedro Ledesma will also show a lot of European ancestry.

Some people will claim that technically Toribio Hernandez de Arellano s descendants can claim "Christiano Viejo " status as his ancestor converted to Catholicism in August of 1389, two years before the 1391 forced conversions. His wife filed for a divorce when he converted. Many people use 1391 as a cutoff point since most conversions after 1391 carried a doubt as to whether they really converted or were just faking it to escape torture.

Comment

thank you so much for sharing your research and information on this subject.
My Dads Castanon line was Ribi and my maternal grandfather Gutierrez was Haplogroup N but now deceased and the site I did his dna on didn't break it down. My MTDNA was haplogroup A but I can only take that line back to abt 1850. Anything you share is of great value to me especially on the Ashkenazi Jewish roots.
Linda Castanon-Long

Comment

thank you so much for sharing your research and information on this subject.
My Dads Castanon line was Ribi and my maternal grandfather Gutierrez was Haplogroup N but now deceased and the site I did his dna on didn't break it down. My MTDNA was haplogroup A but I can only take that line back to abt 1850. Anything you share is of great value to me especially on the Ashkenazi Jewish roots.
Linda Castanon-Long

Comment

thank you so much for sharing your research and information on this subject.
My Dads Castanon line was Ribi and my maternal grandfather Gutierrez was Haplogroup N but now deceased and the site I did his dna on didn't break it down. My MTDNA was haplogroup A but I can only take that line back to abt 1850. Anything you share is of great value to me especially on the Ashkenazi Jewish roots.
Linda Castanon-Long

Comment

i'd consider toribio hernandez to be sephardic not askenazi, since azkenazi tends to refer to non-iberian european jews. i think there's other jewish lineages besides toribio's since my granparents don't appear to be descendents of him and my grandpa's dna results suggest that he has at least a little sephardic ancestry(like 1/8-ish or higher).

Comment

We had Ashkenazi Jews move into Spain in the 13th and 14th centuries. They tended to marry within their own group up until the dispersion. They had some different traditions than the Jews in the Iberian peninsula. Toribios paternal ancestry was part of this group. Toribio also descended from the davidic line.

The Jewish lines shared by the Padilla, Dela Torre Ledesma, and Rodriguez de Hijar does seem to be Sephardic.

Comment

are the de la torre ledesma related to the de la torre family in jerez/tepetongo/huejucar vincinity?

on another note, i haven't figured out which lines my grandpa got his me/sephardic from

In reply to by longsjourney

Comment

I don't know if the De la Torre in the Jerez, Tepetongo and Huejucar areas are the same De La Torre Ledesma. My De la Torre family that I have studied is widespread in Nueva Galicia. My more immediate De la Torre family is in los Altos de Jalisco and Aguascalientes.

Comment

This post comes out of no where. I have no idea what the writer is referring to.
Why do I never receive any of the posts from any of the forums. I've checked at the
site and I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, but receive nothing. What's wrong?
Thanks so much.
Alice BB
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 1/9/16, jlblonde@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 6:06 PM

I would like to review the documents
myself. Where can i find these
documents?

Comment

To read all the information. Go to the website, log in, and read from there.

There are problems with the mail delivery in the various forums

To read all the messages go to the website, log in, and read

To post to the group you should be able to reply to the messages that are
delivered but to be safe you should:

Go to the website, log in, and post from the website.

Joseph

=========================

Joseph Puentes
Clean@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: General [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On
> Behalf Of Alice Blake
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 7:49 PM
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
>
> This post comes out of no where. I have no idea what the writer is
> referring to.
> Why do I never receive any of the posts from any of the forums. I've
> checked at the site and I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, but
> receive nothing. What's wrong?
> Thanks so much.
> Alice BB
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 1/9/16, jlblonde@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 6:06 PM
>
> I would like to review the documents
> myself. Where can i find these
> documents?
>

Comment

I get the same thing. So, if I am really intrigued by a post for which I have not received a prior post, I have to sign in to the Nuestros Ranchos website and I find all the posts there even when I have only received some of them.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 00:48:38 +0000
> From: alicebb@att.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
>
> This post comes out of no where. I have no idea what the writer is referring to.
> Why do I never receive any of the posts from any of the forums. I've checked at the
> site and I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, but receive nothing. What's wrong?
> Thanks so much.
> Alice BB
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 1/9/16, jlblonde@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 6:06 PM
>
> I would like to review the documents
> myself. Where can i find these
> documents?
>

Comment

https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&region=MEXICO

Pick your state and go browsing.

John P. Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: jlblonde
To: general
Sent: Sat, Jan 9, 2016 4:06 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?

I would like to review the documents myself. Where can i find these
documents?

Comment

https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&region=MEXICO

Pick your state and go browsing.

John P. Schmal

-----Original Message-----
From: jlblonde
To: general
Sent: Sat, Jan 9, 2016 4:06 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?

I would like to review the documents myself. Where can i find these
documents?

Comment

Hi Raquel allow me to recommend a certain book which I recently researched "Silent Heritage" by Richard Santos. I found it informative and well documented. It refers to the many colonial families who were summond by the Inquisition as suspected Jewish Conversos.Lists names and dates. Good luck.

Comment

I'm unsure whether I'm the Raquel for whom this is intended, but I
appreciate the recommendation. It looks like its going to be a challenge
to locate.

Raquel Ruiz
Massachusetts

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:47 PM, wrote:

> I Raquel allow me to recommend a certain book which I recently researched
> "Silent Heritage" by Richard Santos. I found it informative and well
> documented. It refers to the many colonial families who were summond by the
> Inquisition as suspected Jewish Conversos.Lists names and dates. Good luck.
>

Comment

this book used is for sale on Amazon for $198.  I think there are not many copies out there..Linda
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Raquel Ruiz
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish roots

I'm unsure whether I'm the Raquel for whom this is intended, but I
appreciate the recommendation.  It looks like its going to be a challenge
to locate.

Raquel Ruiz
Massachusetts

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:47 PM, wrote:

> I Raquel allow me to recommend a certain book which I recently researched
> "Silent Heritage" by Richard Santos. I found it informative and well
> documented. It refers to the many colonial families who were summond by the
> Inquisition as suspected Jewish Conversos.Lists names and dates. Good luck.
>

Comment

Hi again Raquel, I was able to get this book through my local county library in Southern CA. I simply gave the librarian the title and author she entered it in her computer and we ordered/borrowed it from a campus of the University of Texas. I've gotten several hard to find and rare historical reference books from University libraries through out the country this way. And it's inexpensive. Good luck.

Comment

Thanks for Erlinda, I plan to do just that after I retire next year, so I
can give the resource my full attention.
Raquel

Comment

this is a sensitive subject with many members. It is best to discuss your question privately. I am working on a project that will address your results. A post that addresses a small piece of the puzzle of our DNA results can be found in my latest post on the ancestry of Carlo Lomellini. I am working on a book that has a chapter that will more fully address your findings.When I finish that chapter, I will share it with you.
R.A Ricci

In reply to by gpf13

Comment

Hello George

I was hoping to have had it published this past summer but I got caught doing a lot of research which has added more information that I am going to add. I say every year that I hope to publish by the next summer. The difference today is that I am now comfortable publishing the book with the research that I have already completed.

i need to compare the different software programs to make the tables for the book, and decide if the book is only going to be in English or in both English and Spanish.

Even if the book is not published in time, I would hope to at least present a rough draft of the book in July 2016 in Los Angeles, California. I have many elderly relatives that are urging me to present the findings soon.

Rick A Ricci

Comment

Dear george
I said that I had enough research for the book but new material is discovered and then I have to go back and rewrite a section. I had one of our ancestors as a devout converso who married his daughters to Old Christian noble families. He stated that it was important for them to marry into these families, old Christians with new Christians. However, I just found out that on his deathbed he called out to God using Jewish phrases stating that he was going to him after obeying all of his laws. The line between converso and Jewish is a slippery one at times, and at other times conversion led to fanaticism, like Torquemada.

Although I keep finding these lines, it is important to remember that it is a minority and I keep finding many lines that aren't Jewish. I have found some French lines to my surprise. The great thing about these findings is that I have stories to go with many of these people. The claim that Jewish and French ancestors in Jalisco may be a myth but it is not a myth that there are French and Jewish lines in the 13, 14, and 15th centuries in the Iberian peninsula. Even some Italian lines. Some here and there, not most.

Pedro de Anda-Altamirano

Does anyone have more info on him or descend from this family. His was the son of the proignitor of the anda Surname in los Altos. I dont know who his father was though. He was born ca. 1565 en Guadalajara and married to Beatriz Gonzales de Castaneda.

Comments

Comment

I have a Ana de Anda y Altamirano whose father is listed as Pedro de And a y Altamirano, born in 1551 Reynos de Castilla, Spain, and whose father is listed as Pedro de And a y Altamirano born in Jardines de San Juan, Salamanca Castilla y Leon.

This is information that was passed down to me so I have no idea how that information was received.

Paul

Comment

Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.

La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?

¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.

El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.

Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.

Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?

Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?

Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.

Saludos y gracias

GTT

Comment

Estoy excribiendo un ensayo sobre estos: Los Altamirano de Castilla y como

conectan a nosotros, pues ya vengo de los Altamirano de Castilla y los

ANDA Altamirano en varias lineas seperadas. He cogido varios fuentes y mucho

documentos que nos podra ayudar. Este Esteban de Pastrana si lo se. Su esposa

era Catalina Ortiz de Anda, esta ultima viene de una linea iligitima de los De Ana

Altamirano, lo he estudiado bastante muy bien. Pues me voy de prisa.....

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT

Comment

Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda Altamirano

era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en Archivo Historico

de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de Anda,

el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres diferentes de una

edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija del conquistador

Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas viejo. Son los

padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los registros que he conseguido

lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios anos en unas de las Guadalajaras

cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo explicar todo.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT

Comment

Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.

Luego envío el dato exacto.

Saludos

GTT

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda

Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
Altamirano

era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
Archivo Historico

de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de
Anda,

el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
diferentes de una

edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija
del conquistador

Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
viejo. Son los

padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
registros que he conseguido

lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
anos en unas de las Guadalajaras

cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
explicar todo.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT

Comment

Saque estos datos, de Mariano Gonzalez Leal, obviamente necesitamos ser mas cuidados con cual

quier fuente.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:10:04 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
> Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
> del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
>
> Luego envío el dato exacto.
>
> Saludos
>
> GTT
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
> Altamirano
>
> era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
> Archivo Historico
>
> de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de
> Anda,
>
> el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
> diferentes de una
>
> edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija
> del conquistador
>
> Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
> viejo. Son los
>
> padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
> registros que he conseguido
>
> lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
> anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
>
> cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
> explicar todo.
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> inbox.
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Comment

El problema es que te saquen de la ignorancia pero para meterte en la
confusión.

Fue el problema de Dávila Garibi, por ejemplo. Mariano es otra cosa, porque
su trabajo es de tal envergadura, que siempre corre el riesgo de no
comprobar los miles y miles de datos que publica. Es imposible lograr eso en
una vida.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 07:33 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda

Saque estos datos, de Mariano Gonzalez Leal, obviamente necesitamos ser mas
cuidados con cual

quier fuente.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:10:04 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
> Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
> del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
>
> Luego envío el dato exacto.
>
> Saludos
>
> GTT
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
> Altamirano
>
> era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
> Archivo Historico
>
> de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro
de
> Anda,
>
> el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
> diferentes de una
>
> edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda
hija
> del conquistador
>
> Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
> viejo. Son los
>
> padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
> registros que he conseguido
>
> lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
> anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
>
> cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
> explicar todo.
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y
que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a
Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y
sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita,
vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus
hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con
Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán
Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban.
Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

Comment

I found a 1553 file from the Mexico City Sagrario which shows that a person named Juan de Altamirano el Viejo had a daughter named Isabel. They were godparents at the baptism of Agustina, the daughter of Juan de Altamirano and dona Petronilla.

I was wondering if this Isabel de Altamirano could be the the wife of Pedro de Anda.

The archive is located at:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-RHND-R?i=218&wc=3P65-MNP%3…

Mexico DF, Bautismos de españoles 1536-1546, 1552-1589 / Image 2149

Comment

very god, Who was Juan Altamirano el viejo?

2016-01-07 10:06 GMT-06:00 :

> I found a 1553 file from the Mexico City Sagrario which shows that a person
> named Juan de Altamirano el Viejo had a daughter named Isabel. They were
> godparents at the baptism of Agustina, the daughter of Juan de Altamirano
> and
> dona Petronilla. I was wondering if this Isabel de Altamirano could be the
> the wife of Pedro de Anda. The archive is located at:
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-RHND-R?i=218&wc=3P65-MNP%3…
> Mexico DF, Bautismos de españoles 1536-1546, 1552-1589 / Image 2149
>

Comment

very god, Who was Juan Altamirano el viejo?

2016-01-07 10:06 GMT-06:00 :

> I found a 1553 file from the Mexico City Sagrario which shows that a person
> named Juan de Altamirano el Viejo had a daughter named Isabel. They were
> godparents at the baptism of Agustina, the daughter of Juan de Altamirano
> and
> dona Petronilla. I was wondering if this Isabel de Altamirano could be the
> the wife of Pedro de Anda. The archive is located at:
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-RHND-R?i=218&wc=3P65-MNP%3…
> Mexico DF, Bautismos de españoles 1536-1546, 1552-1589 / Image 2149
>

Comment

I have no clue who the parents, "Juan de Altamirano and his wife dona Petronilla," are.

The "licenciado Altamirano" mentioned must be el Lic. Juan Gutierrez de Altamirano, married to Juana Altamirano. It appears that two of his sons are also godparents.

"Juan Alonso" is noted as the son of el licenciado Altamirano. Juan Alonso de Altamirano was married to Isabel de Estrada.

"Hernan Gutierrez and his wife dona Fca" may be el Lic. Juan Gutierrez de Altamirano's son Hernan Gutierrez de Altamirano, married to Francisco Osorio.

I also don't know the identity of "Juan de Altamirano el viejo" who has a daughter named Isabel.

Comment

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:10:04 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
> Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
> del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
>
> Luego envío el dato exacto.
>
> Saludos
>
> GTT
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
> Altamirano
>
> era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
> Archivo Historico
>
> de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de
> Anda,
>
> el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
> diferentes de una
>
> edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija
> del conquistador
>
> Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
> viejo. Son los
>
> padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
> registros que he conseguido
>
> lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
> anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
>
> cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
> explicar todo.
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

Comment

Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre

tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan de Anda Altamirano,

hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.

y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el

20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa

Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto tambien

es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT

Comment

No lo creo. Todavía no sabemos porque Pedro de Anda Castañeda en sus hijos
transformo el apellido en Anda Altamirano, por eso envie el correo con los
datos del oidor y la relacin que tuvo con Pedro de Anda (sin el Altamirano).

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:53 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos; Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda

Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre

tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan de
Anda Altamirano,

hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.

y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el

20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa

Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto tambien

es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT

Comment

Los padres de Pedro de Anda Castaneda son DE ANDA

y Altamirano de Castilla.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:21:01 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> No lo creo. Todavía no sabemos porque Pedro de Anda Castañeda en sus hijos
> transformo el apellido en Anda Altamirano, por eso envie el correo con los
> datos del oidor y la relacin que tuvo con Pedro de Anda (sin el Altamirano).
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:53 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos; Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre
>
> tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan de
> Anda Altamirano,
>
> hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.
>
> y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el
>
> 20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa
>
> Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto tambien
>
> es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1

Comment

Eso no es posible ni está comprobado.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 07:35 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda

Los padres de Pedro de Anda Castaneda son DE ANDA

y Altamirano de Castilla.

Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon

> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:21:01 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> No lo creo. Todavía no sabemos porque Pedro de Anda Castañeda en sus hijos
> transformo el apellido en Anda Altamirano, por eso envie el correo con los
> datos del oidor y la relacin que tuvo con Pedro de Anda (sin el
Altamirano).
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:53 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos; Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre
>
> tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan
de
> Anda Altamirano,
>
> hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.
>
> y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el
>
> 20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa
>
> Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto
tambien
>
> es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y
que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a
Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y
sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita,
vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus
hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con
Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán
Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban.
Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
inbox.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1

Comment

Daniel,

There is a large branch of de Anda family in San Juan de los Lagos, although most of them have moved to Queretaro and Mexico City.

I talked to Javier de Anda yesterday in Mexico Cy and he told me that one of his cousins (Pablo de Anda Esqueda) who lives in Queretaro, is working on both of his surnames genealogy, including e-mail addresses from all of them.

I´m planning to visit Queretaro in a couple of weeks and I´ll try to contact Pablo. As soon as have further information, I´ll get back to you.

Best Regards,

Juan Jose Ramirez Ibarra

Comment

Hola, Bill  anterior a esto, te mande preguntar algo, en lo que muy seguramente me puedas ayudar.    Solamente que hay un Pedro de Anda Ruiz. Ch; 11 Dec 1616, en Lagos de Moreno. 0221879 Film. Hijo de Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz, muy posible, otro Pedro más.
 Y en este caso ya serían ocho los hijos del dicho Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz de Nava.
Cordialmente.

Comment

Hola, Celestino. Tienes razón, este parece ser otro Pedro de Anda
[Altamirano], hijo de Juan de Anda [Altamirano] y Juana Ruiz [de Nava].
Cronológicamente cae dentro del lapso en que esta pareja tuvo a sus hijos.
Además, era contemporaneo de Pedro de Anda Altamirano, hijo de Esteban de
Anda Altamirano y Catalina López de Portugal. Y los dos vivieron en Santa
María de los Lagos al mismo tiempo.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Celestino Villalobos"
To: "Bill Figueroa"
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano

Hola, Bill anterior a esto, te mande preguntar algo, en lo que muy
seguramente me puedas ayudar. Solamente que hay un Pedro de Anda Ruiz. Ch;
11 Dec 1616, en Lagos de Moreno. 0221879 Film. Hijo de Juan de Anda y Juana
Ruiz, muy posible, otro Pedro más.
Y en este caso ya serían ocho los hijos del dicho Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz
de Nava.
Cordialmente.

Comment

Gracias, Bill por tu ayuda. Por otro lado y de acuerdo con la carta de Emilie Garcia a Carlos sería una lastima que un trabajo de toda la vida, se vaya a perder, hablando del trabajo del Sr. Holocombe. Y Claro a todos nos gustaría, poder salvar esos papeles, con información tan valiosa, y estoy hablando por todos aquellos, que no participan por verguenza o por cualquier razón, pero que siempre estamos levandando de las migajitas que caen de la mesa. Y siempre estamos pendientes, de los comentarios, información y noticias, atras de la pantalla.
   Cordialmente Celestino

--- On Sun, 8/23/09, Bill Figueroa wrote:

From: Bill Figueroa
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, August 23, 2009, 12:53 AM

Hola, Celestino.  Tienes razón, este parece ser otro Pedro de Anda [Altamirano], hijo de Juan de Anda [Altamirano] y Juana Ruiz [de Nava]. Cronológicamente cae dentro del lapso en que esta pareja tuvo a sus hijos. Además, era contemporaneo de Pedro de Anda Altamirano, hijo de Esteban de Anda Altamirano y Catalina López de Portugal.  Y los dos vivieron en Santa María de los Lagos al mismo tiempo.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message ----- From: "Celestino Villalobos"
To: "Bill Figueroa"
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano

Hola, Bill anterior a esto, te mande preguntar algo, en lo que muy seguramente me puedas ayudar. Solamente que hay un Pedro de Anda Ruiz. Ch; 11 Dec 1616, en Lagos de Moreno. 0221879 Film. Hijo de Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz, muy posible, otro Pedro más.
Y en este caso ya serían ocho los hijos del dicho Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz de Nava.
Cordialmente.

Comment

Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
2. De Pedro Gómez de Portugal e Isabel Ortiz de Anda, tomó los votos matrimoniales 18 de junio 1613. Ella observó como "hija de Pedro de Anda", el "padrinos" fueron Juan de Burgos (la "estrella" en el documento de 1608) y Leonor de Busto. La esposa era hija natural de Pedro de Anda, que también era un hijo natural del capitán Pedro de Anda Altamirano, en el párrafo anterior. La familia era grande, tengo nueve hijos que se casó. Ellos son a menudo registran como mestizos. Madres desconocido para los dos illegitimacies en esta rama.

Las nupcias de 18 de junio 1613 fueron entre Pedro Gómez y Isabel Hortiz, "hija de Pedro de Anda." Él, de natalidad estimada en 1592. Están en mi carta anterior con todos los hijos de sus padres. La carta con la hipótesis de que Manuel Gómez, de Jalos, podría ser prueba de que fueron a Portugal Gómez.
Esposa es Isabel de Pedro Ortiz de Anda, en la mayoría de los registros y dio a luz a once niños, nueve casados. Con espacio limitado en un árbol, no en la lista. A menos que usted le gustaría tener estos datos. Usted nombró a tres-donde se van los otros? Ellos simplemente no caben!
Isabel tuvo que ser una mestiza, porque Pedro no estaba, y algunos de sus descendientes se registran como tales. Algunos indios y mestizos también se casó con otro.
No tengo nada que añadir sobre las próximas dos generaciones. Una pregunta acerca de Josefa de la Cruz, la viuda de Laureano Gómez. Todo lo conocido en su lugar y primer marido muerto de origen? Porque tengo un hombre con ese nombre en mis archivos.

SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES

Comment

Jorge y Celestino,

Me alegra que le información les haya servido. Poco a poco voy acumulando
mas información de Jalisco y Zacatecas. Empezé con Aguascalientes porque
allí originaron mis antepasados, empezando por mi bisabuela María Josefa
Frías Ruiz de Esparza, pero poco a poco me he ido extendiendo a los Altos de
Jalisco y Zacatecas. Mi bisabuela nació en Rincón de Romos, Ags. pero sus
ancestros eran de la Ciudad de Aguascalientes por el lado materno y de San
Luis Potosí por el paterno.

Con respecto al libro de Jaime Holcombe, me dió mucha satisfacción saber que
finalmente, 14 años después de la muerte de su padre, sus hijos decidieron
publicar su libro inconcluso "Nosotros". Sus investigaciones fueron
extensas y muy parecidas a las nuestras. Yo siempre he considerado que Mr.
Holcombe fue un investigador muy serio, con una gran afición por la
genealogía. Indudablemente que cometió algunos errores, pero al fin y al
cabo todos somos humanos. Eso nos dice que por muy confiables que sean los
datos, siempre hay que verificarlos.

Volviendo a nuestro tema, hoy revisé unas notas del Archivo de Tierras y
Aguas que hice en 2007 años porque recordaba haber visto unas comisiones y
cédulas reales relacionadas con los propietarios de estancias de ganado
mayor y menor, suertes de huerta, etc. a quienes se pedía que presentaran
los títulos que los acreditaban como propietarios para justificar sus
derechos. Se menciona al Capitán Esteban de Anda Altamirano, vecino de la
jurisdicción de la Villa de Santa María de los Lagos, labrador y criador de
ganados mayores y menores. Voy a buscar las imágenes digitales, talvez
encuentre datos adicionales.

Saludos,
BILL FIGUEROA

Comment

Hola Bill y Jorge.
 
Pues, Bill tengo que confesarte que tengo mucho trabajo que hacer en Aguascalientes. Pues he observado que tu noveno Great Grandparents son mis abuelos tambien, hablando de Luis Molina de Tiscareño y Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza que casaron un 16 May 1623.
 
Luis Tiscareño y Lorenza Ruiz Esparza, tuvieron como hijo a Juan Tiscareño Ruiz que caso con Isabel Romo de Vivar abt. 1656.
 
Juan Tiscareño e Isabel Romo de Vivar , tuvieron como hija a Francisca Tiscareño Romo de vivar que caso, abt 1689 con Tomas Villalobos Martin del Campo, él hijo de Salvador Villalobos y Francisca Martin del Campo.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Por otro lado, encontre algo  en la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara que confirma y reafirma la información que nos diste referente a Pedro de Anda de Altamirano. Ademas que nos informa de los dos matrimonios de Esteban de Anda el joven.
 
Lagos de Moreno, Jal. Abril 26 de 1703. Exp. 79.- Dispensa de tercero grado de consanguinidad.- Don Esteban de Anda Altamirano, español de 40 años de edad originario y vecino de esta Villa de Santa Maria de los Lagos, viudo de Josefa Moreno de Ortega, hijo legitimo del Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano y de Doña Catalina Saenz de Vidaurre, difuntos; con Doña Ines de Pedroza Marmolejo, vecina de la feligresia de la Villa de San Felipe, Obispado de Michoacan, hija legitima del Cap. Juan de Pedroza Marmolejo y de Doña Geronima de Hierro, difuntos. Declaración del pretenso: Porque Catarina Lopez de Portugal y Ana de Portugal fueron hermanas, y la dicha Catarina Lopez de Portugal, tuvo por su hijo al Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano, y la dicha Ana de Portugal, al Cap. Juan de Pedraza Marmolejo, y el dicho Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano, me tuvo por su hijo, y el dicho Juan de Pedraza Marmolejo, tuvo por su hija a la pretensa. Y las causas que me motivan a
solicitar dicho matrimonio son el de hallarme con cinco hijas doncellas y dos hijos pequeños.
 
celestino villalobos

--- On Sun, 8/23/09, Bill Figueroa wrote:

From: Bill Figueroa
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, August 23, 2009, 10:04 PM

Jorge y Celestino,

Me alegra que le información les haya servido.  Poco a poco voy acumulando mas información de Jalisco y Zacatecas.  Empezé con Aguascalientes porque allí originaron mis antepasados, empezando por mi bisabuela María Josefa Frías Ruiz de Esparza, pero poco a poco me he ido extendiendo a los Altos de Jalisco y Zacatecas.  Mi bisabuela nació en Rincón de Romos, Ags. pero sus ancestros eran de la Ciudad de Aguascalientes por el lado materno y de San Luis Potosí por el paterno.

Con respecto al libro de Jaime Holcombe, me dió mucha satisfacción saber que finalmente, 14 años después de la muerte de su padre, sus hijos decidieron publicar su libro inconcluso "Nosotros".  Sus investigaciones fueron extensas y muy parecidas a las nuestras.  Yo siempre he considerado que Mr. Holcombe fue un investigador muy serio, con una gran afición por la genealogía.  Indudablemente que cometió algunos errores, pero al fin y al cabo todos somos humanos.  Eso nos dice que por muy confiables que sean los datos, siempre hay que verificarlos.

Volviendo a nuestro tema, hoy revisé unas notas del Archivo de Tierras y Aguas que hice en 2007 años porque recordaba haber visto unas comisiones y cédulas reales relacionadas con los propietarios de estancias de ganado mayor y menor, suertes de huerta, etc.  a quienes se pedía que presentaran los títulos que los acreditaban como propietarios para justificar sus derechos.  Se menciona al Capitán Esteban de Anda Altamirano, vecino de la jurisdicción de la Villa de Santa María de los Lagos, labrador y criador de ganados mayores y menores.  Voy a buscar las imágenes digitales, talvez encuentre datos adicionales.

Saludos,
BILL FIGUEROA

Comment

Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.

(Mateo González de Ruvalcaba md 1. Gerónima Morales)
|
(María López, married twice:)
(1) Ags. 9 Oct 1625, Domingo Rebollo) (2) Diego Carrillo de Sandi)

María Rebollo---------------(1/2 sibs)---------- Teresa Carrillo
(md 1. Juan Valadés) (md Nicolás de Villalobos, Teoc. 27 Apr 1664)

Juan Valadés-------------------- 2---------------- Nicolás de Villalobos
(md Maria Romo, Ags 4 Feb 1690) (md Isabel Romo de Vivar)
el pretenso----------------------- 3---------------- la pretensa

* * *

Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y casado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR. Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.

Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y c asado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR . Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES

Comment

Salvador,

De donde puedes ver "Jaime Holcombe - Diversas Cartas"? Estan en IGI? Tienes el Batch numero?

Gracias,

Emilie
Port Orchard, Washington, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: cabval@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano

Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.

Comment

DOES ANY BODY KNOWS  WHO THE PARENTS WERE FOR ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR, MARRIED TO JUAN TIZCARENO RUIZ DE ESPARZA IN AGUASCALIENTES IN 1657.

ALGUIEN SABE QUIENES FUERON LOA PADRES DE ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR CASADA CON JUAN TIZCARENO RUIZ DE ESPARZA EN AGUASCALIENTES EN 1657.

SALUDOS Y GRACIAS.

LUIS MIGUEL GONZALEZ.

________________________________
From: "cabval@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:30:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano

Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo.  Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.

(Mateo González de Ruvalcaba md 1. Gerónima Morales)
                        |
(María López, married twice:)
    (1) Ags. 9 Oct 1625, Domingo Rebollo)      (2) Diego Carrillo de Sandi)

    María Rebollo---------------(1/2 sibs)----------    Teresa Carrillo
    (md 1. Juan Valadés)                    (md Nicolás de Villalobos, Teoc. 27 Apr 1664)

    Juan Valadés--------------------    2----------------    Nicolás de Villalobos
(md Maria Romo, Ags 4 Feb 1690)        (md Isabel Romo de Vivar)
    el pretenso-----------------------    3----------------    la pretensa

* * *

Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes  y casado en dos ocasiones,  la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR. Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.

Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes  y c asado en dos ocasiones,  la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR . Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES

Comment

Primera generación

1. Isabel Romo de Vivar.

Isabel se casó con Juan Tiscareño y Ruiz de Esparza, hijo de Luis Tiscareño y Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza, en 1656. Juan nació en 1631 en Aguascalientes Ags.

Segunda generación

2. Geronimo Romo de Vivar nació en Mexico. Él se casó Margarita Tiscareño y Ruiz de Esparza en 1662.

3. Margarita Tiscareño y Ruiz de Esparza nació el 7 Enero 1642 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico y tuvo su bautismo infantil el 7 Enero 1642 en Sagrario, Aguascalientes.

Tercera generación

4. Joseph Romo de Vivar nació estimado 1622. Él se casó con Juana de Solis Calahorra en 1644 en Presidio de Conchos Chihuahua.

5. Juana de Solis Calahorra nació estimado 1629.

6. Luis Tiscareño nació en 1598 en Sevilla España. Él se casó Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza el 16 Mayo 1623.

7. Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza nació en 1602 en Aguascalientes Ags..

Cuarta generación

8. Diego Capitan Romo de Vivar tuvo su bautismo infantil el 12 Marzo 1589 en Rieves Toledo. Él se casó Maria Rangel.

9. Maria Rangel.

10. Juan de Solis se casó Maria de Calahorra.

11. Maria de Calahorra.

12. Juan Tiscareño nació estimado 1570 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. Él se casó Elvira Marquez.

13. Elvira Marquez.

14. Lope Ruiz de Esparza y Eguinoa se casó Francisca Gabay.

15. Francisca Gabay.

Quinta generación

16. Diego Romo se casó Catalina Perez.

17. Catalina Perez.

18. Juan Alferez Real Rangel de Viezma o Paguero se casó Maria Rosales.

19. Maria Rosales.

28. Lope Ruiz de Esparza nació en Pamplona España. se le sepultó el 14 Agosto 1561 en Aguascalientes. Lope se casó Maria Diez de Eguinoa.

29. Maria Diez de Eguinoa nació en 1573 en Ciudad de Mexico, Mexico.

30. Martin Navarro se casó Petronila Moctezuma.

31. Petronila Moctezuma.

Sexta generación

36. Alonso Conquistador Rangel se casó Luisa de Velázquez y Salasar.

37. Luisa de Velázquez y Salasar.

38. Alonso Conquistador Rangel se imprimió como #36 en la página 2.

39. Luisa de Velázquez y Salasar se imprimió como #37 en la página 2.

62. Diego Arias de Sotelo nació aproximadamente en 1525 en Zamora España. Él se casó Leonor Valderrama y Moctezuma.

63. Leonor Valderrama y Moctezuma.

Séptima generación

124. Arias de Sotelo.

126. Cristobal Conquistador de Valderrama se casó Leonor de Moctezuma.

127. Leonor de Moctezuma.

Octava generación

254. Motecuzoma II Xocoyotzin se casó Teotlalco.

255. Teotlalco.

SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES

Comment

Hola Salvador, Joseph Romo de Vivar tuvo su bautismo infántil el 30 de junio de 1625,

en San Felipe, Guanajuato, Méjico, hijo lex. de Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar y Maria Rangel.

Ojala que te ayuda este dato. -Daniel

_________________________________________________________________

Comment

Alguien sabe quien son los padres de Maria Romo de Vivar, esposa de Juan Macias Valades, padre de Beltran de la Cueva? Y Isabel Romo de Vivar, esposa de Nicolas Villalobos Campos? madre de Eugenia de Villalobos?
-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________

Comment

Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y casado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR. Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
de Jaime Holcombe,
Here's a "dispensa" where the María López of two paragraphs ago comes in: (6123) Aguascalientes, 12 Mar 1734. "Dos impedimentos de tercer grado de consanguinidad: Joseph Manuel Macías Valadés (38) viudo de Agueda Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.

(Mateo González de Ruvalcaba md 1. Gerónima Morales)
|
(María López, married twice:)
(1) Ags. 9 Oct 1625, Domingo Rebollo) (2) Diego Carrillo de Sandi)

María Rebollo---------------(1/2 sibs)---------- Teresa Carrillo
(md 1. Juan Valadés) (md Nicolás de Villalobos, Teoc. 27 Apr 1664)

Juan Valadés-------------------- 2---------------- Nicolás de Villalobos
(md Maria Romo, Ags 4 Feb 1690) (md Isabel Romo de Vivar)
el pretenso----------------------- 3---------------- la pretensa

SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES

Comment

Hola, Daniel. Tal vez esto te sirva un poco.
 
Aguascalientes, Ags. Marzo 12 de 1734. Exp. 82.-  Dispensa de tercero grado de consanguinidad por dos lineas.- Joseph Manuel Macias Valadés, español de 38 años de edad, originario y vecino de esta villa, viudo de Agueda Beltrán de la Cueva.Hijo legitimo de Juan Macías Valadés y de Maria Romo; con Eugenea de Villalobos, española de 21 años de edad, originaria y vecina del partido de Teocaltiche y residente en esta villa, hija legitima de Nicoláas de Villalobos, difunto y de Isabel Romo. Declaración del pretenso: Maria Rebollo y Theresa Carrillo, fueron hermanas, de Maria Rebollo, vino Juan Macías Valadés, mi padre, y de Theresa Carrillo, vino Nicolás de Villalobos, padre de la pretensa. Y por la otra parte,
 
Gerónimo Romo y Francisco Romo, fueron hermanos, de Gerónimo Romo, vino Isabel Romo, madre de mi contrayente, ( y de Francisco Romo, vino Maria Romo), mi madre. Se otorgó la dispensa en la ciudad de Guadalajara, en 23 de marzo de 1734. 16 fojas.
 
Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, parrafo # 1062,  pagina 198.
Celestino Villalobos.

--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino wrote:

From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 12:17 AM

Alguien sabe quien son los padres de Maria Romo de Vivar, esposa de Juan Macias Valades, padre de Beltran de la Cueva? Y Isabel Romo de Vivar, esposa de Nicolas Villalobos Campos? madre de Eugenia de Villalobos?
-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________

Comment

Yo tengo como padres de María Romo de Vivar a Francisco Romo de Vivar y Lorenza Delgado. Y los padres de Isabel Romo de Vivar como Jerónimo Romo de Vivar y Margarita Tiscareño de Molina.

Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.

_________________________________________________________________
Messenger cumple 10 años y tiene regalos para ti
www.aniversariomessenger.com.mx

Comment

Francisco Romo de Vivar  Y Lorenza Tiscareño de Molina, posibles padres de Maria Romo.
Ver. Gedcom. Nuestros Ranchos. Sandra Mendoza.
Celestino.

--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino wrote:

From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 12:17 AM

Alguien sabe quien son los padres de Maria Romo de Vivar, esposa de Juan Macias Valades, padre de Beltran de la Cueva? Y Isabel Romo de Vivar, esposa de Nicolas Villalobos Campos? madre de Eugenia de Villalobos?
-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________

Comment

Hola Celestino,

Muchas gracias por los datos de la dispensa otorgada por la Sagrada Mitra al
Capt. Esteban de Anda Altamirano y D. Ines de Pedroza Marmolejo. Encontré
el casamiento en la Villa de San Felipe, Guanajuato, que formaba parte del
Obispado de Michoacán. Se casaron el 18 de junio de 1703 y efectivamente,
como dice la dispensa, eran primos segundos (3er. grado de consanguinidad).
Con esa dispensa saqué muchos otros datos de esa familia.

Que interesante que resultamos primos en enésimo grado por la línea
Tiscareño-Ruiz de Esparza. Como acertadamente lo has dicho, nuestros
ancestros comunes mas cercanos son Luis Tiscareño de Molina y Lorenza Ruiz
de Esparza.

Un saludo,
BILL FIGUEROA

Comment

Could it be possible that Juan de Anda (b. ca. 1595) married to Juana Ruiz de Nava be the son (or grandson) of Pedro de Anda and Beatriz de Castaneda, who moved to Sta. Maria de los Lagos (Lagos de Moreno) in 1565. Pedro was still acquiring additional land in December of 1591.

Sera posible qu Juan de Anda (nacido alrededor de 1595), casado con Juana Ruiz de Nava sea el hijo (o nieto) de Pedro de Anda y Beatriz de Castaneda, vecinos de Sta. Maria de Los Lagos, (Lagos de Moreno) a partir de 1565. Pedro seguia adquiriendo tierras en diciembre de 1591.

Jaime R. Alvarado

Comment

Jaime,

I have Juan de Anda Altamirano (born ca. 1595) married to Juana Ruiz de Nava
y Guerra (born ca. 1599) as the son of Pedro de Anda Altamirano and Beatriz
González de Castañeda. Seems like we discussed this issue a few months ago,
right?

Bill Figueroa

Comment

Bill,
Yes, we discussed this issue. What does not make sense to me after checking the history of Lagos is that if Juan de Anda was born in 1595, and Pedro de Anda and Beatriz Gonzalez de Castañeda were his parents, then Beatriz would have been about 45-50 years old whe she gave birth to Juan,given that Pedro and Beatriz received land in Lagos from Hernado de Martel on March 26 1565. Now, its possible that Juan was born earlier, and that Beatriz was very young when she married Pedro.

Jaime Alvarado,

Comment

You're right, Jaime. However, notice that must of the dates are
approximations including the dob of Pedro de Anda Altamirano, Beatriz
González de Castañeda and their children Beatriz, Esteban and Juan de Anda
Altamirano. I've found some estimates way off and this could be the case
here. I'm going to do some checking and will get back to you later.

Bill Figueroa

Comment

Jaime,

I checked my notes and can confirm that Pedro de Anda received a land grant in 1565. Basically it reads:

"Una caballeria de tierra río abajo del río de Sauceda en una vuelta que llaman Las Cuevas y mas acá de una mesa, tres cuartos de legua de esta Villa (Sta. María de los Lagos), y una estancia del otro cabo de la dicha mesa junto al río que va de esta villa hacia el poniente dos leguas poco mas o menos de ella, y un solar de casa". This land grant was dated in Guadalajara 27 August 1565."

Eleven years later he received another land grant from Don Gerónimo de Orosco, Presidente, Gobernador y Capitán General del Reino de la Nueva Galicia, de "un sitio de estancia para ganado mayor, tres leguas poco mas o menos de Sta. María de los Lagos, río abajo en la parte donde hace vuelta y están unos albarradones". This second land grant was dated in Guadalajara 17 August 1576.

Neither one mentions his wife Doña Beatriz González de Castañeda. However, I found one land grant dated in Guadalajara 25 May 1602 "otorgada a Beatriz de Castañeda y Margarita Gómez, hermanas". I don't think this is Pedro de Anda's wife, but I wanted to let you know just in case. Who is this Margarita Gómez, anyway?

Considering that Pedro de Anda was already in Nueva Galicia in 1565 and received a land grant from the King of Spain (through the Real Audiencia de Guadalajara), I would venture to say that Pedro de Anda was probably single and about 25 years old in 1565, so a more realistic dob would be ca.1540. Doña Beatriz must have been a lot younger than him, maybe as much as 20 years his junior.

Let me know what you think.

Bill

Comment

I'm descended from a woman whose surnames are Anda Altamirano but I
can't find my info at present. Will be back in touch later about it.
Marge:)
On Jan 3, 2008, at 9:12 PM, mormonboy74 wrote:

>
> Does anyone have more info on him or descend from this family. His was
> the son of the proignitor of the anda Surname in los Altos. I dont
> know who his father was though. He was born ca. 1565 en Guadalajara
> and married to Beatriz Gonzales de Castaneda. I dont have any info on
> their marriage. Their son Juan de Anda is my 11th Grt Gf. I think this
> is where it ends but will still try. I was trying to get on PARES
> website but it wont let me for some reason. Does anyone know more of
> the ANDA family? -Daniel

Comment

Daniel, I have the same line from Pedro--I decend from Esteban b- abt 1584 and also sister Beatriz b- abt 1572 I did not attach Juan- what is his info and who is he married to- maybe I already have him and have not attached him to Pedro. Unfortunately I could not find any more info on birth or marriage for pedro and Beatriz.

Miguel Gutierrez de la Torre
----- Original Message -----
From: M.Vallazza
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda-Altamirano

I'm descended from a woman whose surnames are Anda Altamirano but I
can't find my info at present. Will be back in touch later about it.
Marge:)
On Jan 3, 2008, at 9:12 PM, mormonboy74 wrote:

>
> Does anyone have more info on him or descend from this family. His was
> the son of the proignitor of the anda Surname in los Altos. I dont
> know who his father was though. He was born ca. 1565 en Guadalajara
> and married to Beatriz Gonzales de Castaneda. I dont have any info on
> their marriage. Their son Juan de Anda is my 11th Grt Gf. I think this
> is where it ends but will still try. I was trying to get on PARES
> website but it wont let me for some reason. Does anyone know more of
> the ANDA family? -Daniel

Comment

Here is his info: Juan de Anda-Altamirano born ca. 1595 en la villa de Lagos de Moreno de Los Altos murio Marzo 26, 1632 en Lagos. Married Dona Juana Ruiz de Nava y Guerra, nacido ca. 1599 en Lagos hija
lehitima de Alonso Lorenso Guerra, nativo de Oviedo, Asturias, Espana y de Maria Lopes de Nava y Munos, nativa y originaria de Lagos de Moreno. Se Caso en ca. 1611 en Lagos and had at least two kids, theres more but Ive been busy to further resaerch this line who are
Teresa de Anda-Altamirano y Nava and Juan (same last name). Hope this helps. I descend
from Teresa who married in to the Vasquez de Lara family. Hope this helps. Theres a Pedro de Altamirano born in Mexico City ca. 1555 maybe thats him but his wife is different and if that is our pedro he would be the grnadson of the King of Castilla.????

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Comment

Daniel, thanks for the info. I do have it. Juan had at least 7 kids. I decend from Ana b-abt 1612 married to Alonso Fernandez de Rueda b-abt 1605 from Toranzo, Santander Espana.

Miguel Gutierrez de la Torre
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda-Altamirano

Here is his info: Juan de Anda-Altamirano born ca. 1595 en la villa de Lagos de Moreno de Los Altos murio Marzo 26, 1632 en Lagos. Married Dona Juana Ruiz de Nava y Guerra, nacido ca. 1599 en Lagos hija
lehitima de Alonso Lorenso Guerra, nativo de Oviedo, Asturias, Espana y de Maria Lopes de Nava y Munos, nativa y originaria de Lagos de Moreno. Se Caso en ca. 1611 en Lagos and had at least two kids, theres more but Ive been busy to further resaerch this line who are
Teresa de Anda-Altamirano y Nava and Juan (same last name). Hope this helps. I descend
from Teresa who married in to the Vasquez de Lara family. Hope this helps. Theres a Pedro de Altamirano born in Mexico City ca. 1555 maybe thats him but his wife is different and if that is our pedro he would be the grnadson of the King of Castilla.????

Diego Pinedo & Rodrigo de Pinedo - Jerez, Zac

I found a marriage dispensation record (023 Benito Guzman & Juana Maria Rodarte / Jerez) in the late 1750s which has some information about Diego Pinedo.

Comments

Comment

.
this is what I have:
~
7th Great Grandfather of Chet Castanon
.
marriage dispensation 4th degree igual between wives
..trunk. Diego Pinedo and Ana Esquivel
Maria Ana Pinedo.......1st degree
Antonia de Avila...........2nd degree
Magdalena Mejia........3rd degree
Encarnacion Pinedo....4th degree
.
trunk.. Diego Pinedo and Gertrudis Castaneda (de Avila)
Antonia Pinedo.............1st degree
Cayetano Rodarte........2nd degree
Diego Rodarte...............3rd degree
Juana Maria Rodarte...4th degree
.
marriage dispensation 4th degree
...trunk.. Diego Pinedo.. Gertrudis de Avila
Antonia Pinedo..........Joseph Pinedo..1st degre
Francisca Rodarte...Maria Pinedo...2nd degree
Ygnacio Felix............Francisca Medrano..3rd degree
Ma. Ricarda Felix.....Modesto Miranda...4th degree
.
marriage dispensation 4th degree igual
....trunk..Diego Pinedo and Ana (Mariana) Esquivel
Joseph Pinedo.............Antonia Pinedo........1st degree
Lasaro Pinedo.........Cayetano Rodarte.....2nd degree
Feliciana Pinedo.......Manuel Rodarte.......3rd degree
Lugardo Gusman .......Rosalia Rodarte.....4th degree
.

In reply to by longsjourney

Comment

Did you see this one too:

Rodrigo de Pinedo m. Maria de Pina

..Mathias Pinedo m. Maria Nicolasa de Abila
....Pedro Tadeo Pinedo (b. 5 Feb 1695, Jerez, Zac ) m. Antonia Gonzales
....Maria Pinedo (b. 3 Nov 1699, Jerez, Zac )

..Antonio Pinedo m. Petra de la Rocha
....Lusia Pinedo m. Marsial Gonzales
....Antonia Gonzales m. Pedro Tadeo Pinedo

Do you see any connection between Diego Pinedo and this Rodrigo de Pinedo?

Do you see any other useful information in this dispensa?

Here's the link:
Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-22470-84?cc=1874591 : accessed 4 January 2016), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > Matrimonios 1733-1734 > image 88 of 288; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).